Why ISKCON Gurus Get Sick Often?

[Visnu]

 

Let's allow Lord Krishna to weigh in on this issue.

 

api cet sudurâcâro

bhajate mâm ananya-bhâk

sâdhur eva sa mantavyah

samyag vyavasito hi sah

WORD FOR WORD

api -- even; cet -- if; su-duracarah -- one committing the most abominable actions; bhajate -- is engaged in devotional service; mam -- unto Me; ananya-bhak -- without deviation; sadhuh -- a saint; eva -- certainly; sah -- he; mantavyah -- is to be considered; samyak -- completely; vyavasitah -- situated in determination; hi -- certainly; sah -- he.

TRANSLATION

Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.

 

Please note that this verse refers to a CONDITIONED soul who is NOT COMPLETE in Krsna consciousness, who is subject to the MATERIAL ENERGY, and who is NOT STRONG ENOUGH in Krsna consciousness:

 

"No one should deride a devotee for some accidental falldown from the ideal path, for, as is explained in the next verse, such occasional falldowns will be stopped in due course, as soon as a devotee is completely situated in Krsna consciousness[...]this verse only refers to an accident due to the strong power of material connections. Devotional service is more or less a declaration of war against the illusory energy. As long as one is not strong enough to fight the illusory energy, there may be accidental falldowns. But when one is strong enough, he is no longer subjected to such falldowns, as previously explained." (Bg 9:30 purport)

 

It does NOT refer to a bona fide parampara diksa guru who, as demonstrated previously, can NEVER fall at any time.

[Kulapavana]

 

It does NOT refer to a bona fide parampara diksa guru who, as demonstrated previously, can NEVER fall at any time.

 

so, practically you have to wait untill a Vaishnava guru dies before you can safely determine whether he is (or was) a bona fide parampara guru?

 

should you look at a Vaishnava who is now apparently not fallen, and did not fall down while being a guru, and think: "hmmm... what if he falls down tomorrow?" nobody does that in our tradition and there is no shastric basis for such a mentality. try to apply this mentality to Srila Prabhupada when he was still on the planet to see how offensive that thinking would be.

[bhagavad-gita]

 

ISKCON has done many wonderful things in the last 30 years. I've personally seen scores of people take up Krsna Consciousness. Many more temples have been built giving people a chance to understand Krsna Consciousness. I've seen vidoes of Chinese devotees chanting Hare Krsna. How is it that you don't see any of that? If you wish to remain blind to all of this and continue your blasphemy of senior devotees for very weak reasons, you cannot be convinced.

 

True that ISKCON devotees have done many wonderful things in the past 30 years and can still do many wonderful things in the years to come. But my point is, just getting some wonderful things done doesn't make one a pure devotee. If you think that someone who has been instrumental in getting a congregation of 2000 devotees is a pure devotee then you are mistaken. ISKCON GBC has not obviously followed Srila Prabhupada's instruction in the matter of gurus and initiations.

 

During Srila Prabhupada's time huge castles, temples and palaces were purchased for Krishna. But all those palaces and castles were later sold off when zonal acharya's took over. ISKCON used to own an island castle in France. They had huge palaces. Those were all sold off, and finally all temples in France were closed down - not a single temple was left. All because a rascal named Bhagavan [bhagavan Das Goswami, a zonal guru] stole all the money and utilized everything for his own sense enjoyment. When there is corruption and cheating by the conditioned souls projected by the GBC as gurus, this is what will happen. All the wonderful things that you state being done will be spoiled by the wonderful voted-in gurus. This is just one example of one zonal guru's lila.

 

If the GBC had followed Prabhupada's instructions then as quoted by the press in America, ISKCON devotees would have taken over the American government. That was the rate of expansion of devotees when Srila Prabhupada was there. The number of devotees were very rapidly increasing. But the moment the GBC started disobeying Prabhupada's instructions and carried on with their own zonal acharya, voted-in acharya speculation, everything failed.

 

Tamal Krishna Maharaja, one of the 11 zonal acharya's, explained their mood at the time of appointing themselves as successor acharya's:

 

“They immediately… these eleven people are the selected gurus. I can say definitely for myself, and for which I humbly beg forgiveness from everybody, that there was definitely some degree of trying to control. There's a degree of this in most GBC's parts, in most temple president's parts. This is the conditioned nature, and it came out in the highest position of all. ‘Guru, oh wonderful! Now I'm a guru, and there is only eleven of us’.” - Pyramid House talks recorded in 1980.

 

Obviously this mood continues in a majority of them if not all, even till today. So you can imagine the results yourself. Just wait till one them unleashes the havoc again.

 

So the point I am trying to make here is, conditioned souls, however wonderful they may be, however wonderful their accomplishments may be, still they are conditioned by the three modes of material nature. They will have the four defects of the conditioned souls: cheating propensity, imperfect senses, subject to sense ojects and subject to mistakes. They are still prone to fall-down. So they are not liberated and they are not pure devotees to act as gurus to liberate other conditioned souls. If you consider all those who are doing wonderful things to be pure devotees just because they are doing wonderful things, then you are sentimental and mistaken.

 

Let them be wonderful devotees and carry on with their wonderful accomplishments for ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada. But taking the position of the GBC-authorised-successor-gurus is just too much for those still-conditioned wonderful devotees.

[vijay]

Similar to what Kulapavana prabhu said, it doesnt matter how many quotes you give about how a pure devotee can not fall the fact is you can never know who is completely pure or nearly pure. Only a pure devotee can know another pure devotee, Krishna will send you some one you deserve, according to your desire and sincerity.

 

The only thing you can do is ask people to read prabhupadas books deeply so they gain more of an idea, purity and sincerity to recognise purity and start seeing devotees (including gurus) as manifestations of krishna, rather than as individual personality cults of charisma and sentiment (includes seeing prabhupada in this way as many do). Any other organisational suggestions are secondry to this principle.

[bhagavad-gita]

 

The only thing you can do is ask people to read prabhupadas books deeply so they gain more of an idea, purity and sincerity to recognise purity and start seeing devotees (including gurus) as manifestations of krishna, rather than as individual personality cults of charisma and sentiment (includes seeing prabhupada in this way as many do). Any other organisational suggestions are secondry to this principle.

 

What's the harm in getting attached to Prabhupada? Getting attracted to a pure devotee (Prabhupada) or the Lord is encouraged in the sastra. so by hook or crook getting attached to Krishna or his pure devotee is recommended.

[Visnu]

"Similar to what Kulapavana prabhu said, it doesnt matter how many quotes you give about how a pure devotee can not fall the fact is you can never know who is completely pure or nearly pure. Only a pure devotee can know another pure devotee"

 

This is not supported by Srila Prabhupada. A pure devotee is manifest to the whole world:

 

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism...Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master." (NOI, Text 5, purport)

 

"A Vaisnava acarya is self effulgent" (Cc Madhya 1.220)

 

"The bona fide spiritual master who accepts disciples from all over the world is also worshiped all over the world because of his qualities. [...] the people of the world worship him just as they worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (Cc Madhya 24.330, purport)

 

Such an acarya is, of course, Srila Prabhupada himself.

[ksbh]

Dear Visnu prabhu,

 

I already apologized for the use of inappropriate language (to BG prabhu). I did not extend that apology to you since my original post was directed at BG. However, if you've been offended in any way, please accept my apology.

 

Regarding the Spiritual master's body, I'm not challenging the verdict of the Sastra. I simply asked you a question. You seem to believe that a Spiritual Master should never be overcome by disease and if he is, he is not bonafide. I therefore repeat my question- if the Spiritual Master's body is spiritual and therefore 'must' never exhibit sympoms of disease, how come his body exhibits signs of aging?

 

Using your logic, I must conclude that Srila Prabhupada was 'not' bonafide because he exhibited signs of aging as well as suffered 'heart attacks' a few times.

 

 

Dear ksbh prabhu

 

If you recall, it was YOU who stated (and I quote):

 

"What a load of nonsense. Typical ritvik crap."

 

I simply REPRODUCED YOUR four-letter word above, which was deemed inappropriate language by the moderator, hence he changed it to ****

 

Your understanding of a spiritual master's body being material is unfortunate, for Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"The spiritual master, or acarya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Birth, death, old age and disease do not affect him. According to the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, therefore, after the disappearance of an acarya, his body is never burnt to ashes, for it is a spiritual body. The spiritual body is always unaffected by material conditions."

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.4.20)

[Visnu]

 

Dear Visnu prabhu,

 

I already apologized for the use of inappropriate language (to BG prabhu). I did not extend that apology to you since my original post was directed at BG. However, if you've been offended in any way, please accept my apology.

 

Regarding the Spiritual master's body, I'm not challenging the verdict of the Sastra. I simply asked you a question. You seem to believe that a Spiritual Master should never be overcome by disease and if he is, he is not bonafide. I therefore repeat my question- if the Spiritual Master's body is spiritual and therefore 'must' never exhibit sympoms of disease, how come his body exhibits signs of aging?

 

Using your logic, I must conclude that Srila Prabhupada was 'not' bonafide because he exhibited signs of aging as well as suffered 'heart attacks' a few times.

Dear Ksbh prabhu

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

I accept your apology, and similarly humbly offer you my apology for any offences caused.

 

With regards your question, Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"Sometimes doubts arise in the minds of neophytes about whether or not the spiritual master is liberated, and sometimes neophytes are doubtful about the bodily affairs of the spiritual master. The point of liberation, however, is not to see the bodily symptoms of the spiritual master. One has to see the spiritual symptoms of the spiritual master." (SB 3.33.10, purport)

 

So the question arises: is the spiritual master's body material or spiritual? Srila Prabhupada clearly states it is spiritual:

 

"after the disappearance of an acarya, his body is never burnt to ashes, for it is a spiritual body. The spiritual body is always unaffected by material conditions."

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.4.20)

 

I never stated that a spiritual master should never be "overcome" with disease, but rather what Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"The spiritual master, or acarya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Birth, death, old age and disease do not affect him."

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.4.20)

 

Indeed, Srila Prabhupada states that a spiritual master has a "mortal" body:

 

"thus when the mortal body of the spiritual master expires, his disciples should cry exactly as the queen cries when the king leaves his body."

(S.B 4.28.47, purport)

 

So then the question arises, WHY does the spiritual master take on a "mortal" body? Srila Prabhupada explains this is because in our conditioned state we cannot rely purely on receiving instructions from the Supersoul, therefore we need to approach the guru who has taken "physical" form:

 

"Because Krsna is situated in everyone's heart. Actually, he is the spiritual master, Caitya-Guru. So in order to help us, he comes out as physical spiritual master."

(SP Lecture, 28/5/74, Rome)

 

HOWEVER, this does not mean that the guru can ONLY be served by serving his physical body. As we know, 95% of Srila Prabhupada's disciples never served him physically, having never even met him while he was on the planet. Therefore Srila Prabhupada says:

 

"As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master."

(S.B 4.28.47, purport)

 

So while the spiritual master may exhibit, to our material vision, old age, disease etc., he is never affected by them; rather, such symptoms are there to enable disciples to serve his body whilst he is physically present. However, it should be understood that such a "physical body" is always liberated from the material energy:

 

"Although working for the liberation of conditioned souls, the messenger of the Supreme Lord remains untouched by the material energy." (Cc Madhya 22.14-15)

 

"A pure devotee of the Lord does not live on any planet of the material sky, nor does he feel any contact with material elements. His so-called material body does not exist, being surcharged with the spiritual current of the Lord's identical interest, and thus he is permanently freed from all contaminations of the sum total of the mahat-tattva." (SB 1.13.56)

 

"The Personality of Godhead and His liberated devotees like Narada appear in the material world by the same process. As it is said in the Bhagavad-gita, the birth and activities of the Lord are all transcendental. Therefore, according to authorized opinion, the birth of Narada as the son of Brahma is also a transcendental pastime. His appearance and disappearance are practically on the same level as that of the Lord. The Lord and His devotees are therefore simultaneously one and different as spiritual entities. They belong to the same category of transcendence." (SB 1.6.30<o>)

 

</o> "A Spiritual Master is always liberated. In any condition of His life He should not be mistaken as ordinary human being." (SP Letter, 21 June 1970)

[Kulapavana]

 

A pure devotee is manifest to the whole world:

 

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism...Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master." (NOI, Text 5, purport)

 

"A Vaisnava acarya is self effulgent" (Cc Madhya 1.220)

 

"The bona fide spiritual master who accepts disciples from all over the world is also worshiped all over the world because of his qualities. [...] the people of the world worship him just as they worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (Cc Madhya 24.330, purport).

 

I remember at one time these very arguments were used to promote the now fallen Iskcon gurus like Kirtanananda and Bhagavan as uttama-adhikaris - and most devotees had no problem with that.

 

and btw. how do you verify "self effulgence"? by comparing it to what? a 40 Watt lightbulb?

[Kulapavana]

 

So then the question arises, WHY does the spiritual master take on a "mortal" body? Srila Prabhupada explains this is because in our conditioned state we cannot rely purely on receiving instructions from the Supersoul, therefore we need to approach the guru who has taken "physical" form:

 

"Because Krsna is situated in everyone's heart. Actually, he is the spiritual master, Caitya-Guru. So in order to help us, he comes out as physical spiritual master."

(SP Lecture, 28/5/74, Rome)

 

that pretty much renders ritvik claims null and void, doesnt it?

 

you are not qualified to receive instructions from the Supersoul, but you are qualified to receive instructions from a departed guru?

[Visnu]

 

I remember at one time these very arguments were used to promote the now fallen Iskcon gurus like Kirtanananda and Bhagavan as uttama-adhikaris - and most devotees had no problem with that.

 

and btw. how do you verify "self effulgence"? by comparing it to what? a 40 Watt lightbulb?

 

Well, most devotees DID have a problem with that. Thousands were driven OUT of the movement for questioning the "self-effulgence" of these so-called Zonal Acaryas:

 

"FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters." (Jayadvaita Swami 1996)

 

People like Kirtanananda and Bhagavan weren't authorised to be gurus in the first place. Srila Prabhupada only appointed them as ritviks - see the July 9th 1977 directive to all GBCs and Temple Presidents.

 

Hence:

 

"...sometimes a spiritual master is not properly authorised to initiate and only on his own initiative becomes a spiritual master, he may be carried away by an accumulation of wealth and a large number of disciples." (Nectar of Devotion)

 

Whereas:

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord." (Bg. 4.42, purport)

 

"Self effulgence", by its very definition, means it does not have to be compared to anything.

[vijay]

 

What's the harm in getting attached to Prabhupada? Getting attracted to a pure devotee (Prabhupada) or the Lord is encouraged in the sastra. so by hook or crook getting attached to Krishna or his pure devotee is recommended.

 

There is nothing wrong with being attached to prabhupada. But there are different qualities of attachment. There is being attached to him and disregarding all other vaishnavas. Just like in so-called love there is obsessive, compulsive,selfish or self less love. But all are classed as attachment. There are people that are attached to allah but are willing to blow up other living entities. These are extreme examples but it is for us to know what type of attachment we have. To what degree is it based on selfless love of krishna and to what degree is it based on our false ego.

[Visnu]

 

that pretty much renders ritvik claims null and void, doesnt it?

 

you are not qualified to receive instructions from the Supersoul, but you are qualified to receive instructions from a departed guru?

 

No, it doesn't render ritvik null and void AT ALL. Please read carefully what Srila Prabhupada said:

"As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master."

(S.B 4.28.47, purport)

 

So clearly you serve the physically departed guru by following his instructions. Srila Prabhupada also makes this clear in the following conversation:

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada when you're not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

 

Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my books.

(Morning Walk, 13/5/73)

 

 

How are any of Srila Prabhupada's disciples receiving instructions today, if not from his books? Most never even met Srila Prabhupada while he was on the planet, yet they were still following his instructions.

 

 

"Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life." (SPL 19 January 1967)

[vijay]

 

"Similar to what Kulapavana prabhu said, it doesnt matter how many quotes you give about how a pure devotee can not fall the fact is you can never know who is completely pure or nearly pure. Only a pure devotee can know another pure devotee"

 

This is not supported by Srila Prabhupada. A pure devotee is manifest to the whole world:

 

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism...Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master." (NOI, Text 5, purport)

 

"A Vaisnava acarya is self effulgent" (Cc Madhya 1.220)

 

"The bona fide spiritual master who accepts disciples from all over the world is also worshiped all over the world because of his qualities. [...] the people of the world worship him just as they worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (Cc Madhya 24.330, purport)

 

Such an acarya is, of course, Srila Prabhupada himself.

 

As you said hints are given to who is pure, and judging those qualities depends on the sincerity of the disciple. Can you tell me who is self realised on this planet at the current moment if its supposed to be so obvious? who is having lila with radha krsna currently?

 

Prabhupada is quite clear that guru is given by krsna to the degree one is sincere. There is no mechanical formula, intelligence helps but ultimately krsna awards to our sincerity, we can be scholars of sastra but without humility and sincerity you will be mislead.

"So, finding a bona fide guru requires intelligence and sincerity. If you are serious about understanding the goal of life, spiritual knowledge, then Kåñëa will help you. He is situated in everyone's heart, and he understands when you are sincerely seeking the Absolute Truth. Then He gives direction: "Go to this person." Kåñëa is already giving direction in every respect. We want to do so many things, and Kåñëa is giving us the facility. As He says in the Bhagavad-gétä [18.61], éçvaraù sarva-bhütänäà håd-deçe 'rjuna tiñöhati bhrämayan sarva-bhütäni. As the Supersoul in the heart, Kåñëa is giving facilities to all living entities in their wanderings throughout the various species. But when one becomes very eager to understand Kåñëa, or God, He is glad to give instruction: "Go to such-and-such person and submissively inquire from him. You'll be enlightened." Guru-kåñëa-prasäde päya bhakti-latä-béja: [Cc. Madhya 19.151] By the mercy of the spiritual master and Kåñëa one can make spiritual advancement. One must simply be sincere."

 

You have to approach such a person whose certificate will ensure that Kåñëa will be satisfied. You have to find out such person. Then your life is success. That will also... You will get according to your sincerity of purpose because Kåñëa is within you.

 

You must know the preliminary law. Just like if you want to purchase gold, at least you must know where gold is available. If you want to purchase diamond... So you must know, if you are so foolish that you go to a butcher shop and ask him to supply diamond or gold, then you'll be cheated. You must know at least where to go and purchase gold or diamond. These are valuable things. So that requires little intelligence and sincerity. If we are sincere that "I want to purchase gold or diamond..." This is crude example, but the spiritual inquiry..., if one is actually serious about understanding the goal of life, spiritual knowledge, then Kåñëa is situated in everyone's heart. He understands how this person is sincerely seeking. Then He'll give direction that "You do this." He is giving direction in every respect. We want to do so many things, so Kåñëa is giving us facility.

[Visnu]

 

As you said hints are given to who is pure, and judging those qualities depends on the sincerity of the disciple. Can you tell me who is self realised on this planet at the current moment if its supposed to be so obvious? who is having lila with radha krsna currently?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is that personality! He is present through his books and instructions:

 

"Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I am associating with him by his words." (SB Lectures, 71/08/18 )

 

"So we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krsna or Spiritual Master. Never think that I am absent from you, presence by message (or hearing) is the real touch." (SPL August 1967)

 

"If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the disciple. (Cc Adi 1.35)

 

"If I depart there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and orders. I will always remain with you in that way."

[vijay]

So how do you know for definate srila prabhupada was completely self realised having lila with sri krsna? Are there any devotees currently on the planet that are self realised?

[Kulapavana]

 

"Self effulgence", by its very definition, means it does not have to be compared to anything.

 

and what is that definition?

 

my point is that all the criteria you list above can be understood in many ways.

 

to me, for example, Sacinandana Swami may be self effulgent and very qualified. I am not his disciple but I have known him for 25 years and I respect him a lot. His disciples see him as a genuine guru and get much inspiration and knowledge from him, including deep appreciation and attachment to Srila Prabhupada. I dont see anything wrong with that system. this is the way our tradition was ALWAYS carried through the ages. this is the way of the disciplic SUCCESSION (look up that word in a dictionary, it will help you understand my point).

 

Devotional qualifications are in the eye of the beholder.

[gHari]

 

So how do you know for definate srila prabhupada was completely self realised having lila with sri krsna? Are there any devotees currently on the planet that are self realised?

As a very special gift on my sixtieth birthday, I received a glimpse of Srila Sridhara Maharaja's translation of the Bhagavad-gita verse BG 7.3 as referenced in volume one of his book, Sermons of the Guardian of Devotion:

 

<center>manuSyANAM sahasreSu

 

kazcid yatati siddhaye

 

yatatAm api siddhAnAM

 

kazcin mAM vetti tattvataH

 

(Bg. 7.3)

 

</center>

 

"Out of countless souls, some have reached the human form of life, and among many thousands of human beings, some endeavor to attain direct perception of the individual soul and the Supersoul; and among many thousands of such aspirants who have attained to seeing the soul and the Supersoul, only a few receive actual perception of Me, Syamasundara.

When we do the math, (i.e. many thousands times many thousands = one billion; six billion humans on earth divided by one billion = six), we can see that there are likely several completely realized souls present on the planet.

 

How do we know? Are we worthy of knowing? Perhaps only the last question matters, for Sri Krsna always gives us what we need.

[vijay]

I agree, im questioning those that can claim 100% certainty that srila prabhupada is completely self realised, how they do this? As only a sincere soul that is advanced actually truely knows the realisation of a pure devotee.

 

These devotees have given a few quotes showing how simple it is to recognise a pure devotee so is it possible to show me a few a souls they believe are seeing the pastimes of goloka vrindavan that are on this planet currently.

[bhagavad-gita]

 

"So, finding a bona fide guru requires intelligence and sincerity. If you are serious about understanding the goal of life, spiritual knowledge, then Kåñëa will help you.

 

From this it would appear that literally every single ISKCON devotee who was initiated between November 1977 and 1985 was an insincere spiritual cheater, as 10 out of 11 of the zonal gurus have obviously fallen and in that time period they were the only initiators. Also till 2000 nearly every single devotee from eastern europe was also an insincere cheater, as they were all initiated by Harikesh Swami, another fake guru.

 

Blaming the innocent and ignorant new devotees instead of the false pretenders posing as gurus is a very ignorant analysis of the history. Sincere devotees may go through fake initiations, but in the end Krishna gives them Srila Prabhupada, the real guru and guiding light of ISKCON. It is not just a case of cheaters and the cheated (all devotees being insincere), but a case of Krishna removing the darkness of kali that has entered ISKCON.

[Sephiroth]

 

In the Puranas we see examples of Guru Brhaspati performing yagnas and penance to remove the bad effects of the Devatas karma. He protects them with his purity and takes their ills upon himself.

 

This is nothing at all like what Christian priests do. Christian priests say that all a person need do is confess and they will be forgiven by the priest on behalf of god! To me, that seems to be a dangerous presumption on the priests part, that whomever they forgive is forgiven in the eyes of god. Our acharyas take on the karma of their disciples but they know that there will be bad effects. Nothing is forgiven just like that because every act must have a reaction. This is science, not blind belief.

 

Also, it is possible for a pure devotee to fall. Look at Vishvamitra. He had reached the pinacle of purity with his penance. He even became a Brahma Rishi, the highest state of Rishi there is, self realised in every way. Yet the sound of Menaka's tinkling jewellery made him fall into lust. Once he came to his senses and returned to austerity, he was restored to his previous position. Even Lord Rama himself accepted Vishvamitra as a guru, and served him. Does this not show that it is possible to fall and yet be a pure devotee? If Rama can forgive a fallen devotee, why cannot we?

Haribol.

 

Not everyone can be like Guru Bhaspati or Vishvamitra.

And such acts of taking in sins of others will not elevitate you to level of Sri Rama either. IF that is the purpose for this action by ISCKON members, than I could say that they have a very materialistic purpose - to have their status levitated by their followers.

 

So far, all I could see is similiarity between Christian priests' practise and this practise. I do not see ANY link to Vedas and Gita stating that Gurus and Priests can take on sins of others as something Hindusm practises.

[vijay]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by vijay

"So, finding a bona fide guru requires intelligence and sincerity. If you are serious about understanding the goal of life, spiritual knowledge, then Kåñëa will help you.

 

 

 

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From this it would appear that literally every single ISKCON devotee who was initiated between November 1977 and 1985 was an insincere spiritual cheater, as 10 out of 11 of the zonal gurus have obviously fallen and in that time period they were the only initiators. Also till 2000 nearly every single devotee from eastern europe was also an insincere cheater, as they were all initiated by Harikesh Swami, another fake guru.

 

Blaming the innocent and ignorant new devotees instead of the false pretenders posing as gurus is a very ignorant analysis of the history. Sincere devotees may go through fake initiations, but in the end Krishna gives them Srila Prabhupada, the real guru and guiding light of ISKCON. It is not just a case of cheaters and the cheated (all devotees being insincere), but a case of Krishna removing the darkness of kali that has entered ISKCON.

 

Your quote of me is actually prabhupadas quote.

 

As prabhupada says krsna gives people what they need and desire. Krsna is not unfair. If we look at history from a 30 year perspective then we can get sentimental about it as we are making conclusions based on a snap shot of a movie we are watching. But if we look at it from an absolute point of view, krsna is completely fair, Krsna's laws are perfect. The problem is we only theoretically believe these laws rather than actually understand them.

 

 

From this it would appear that literally every single ISKCON devotee who was initiated between November 1977 and 1985 was an insincere spiritual cheater, as 10 out of 11 of the zonal gurus have obviously fallen and in that time period they were the only initiators.

 

Actually anyone that came before or after 1977 is sincere to the degree that krsna awarded them association of devotees. They are insincere whether before 1977 or after to the degree they left krishna conciousness, which happened during prabhupadas time and after prabhupadas time.

 

 

Also till 2000 nearly every single devotee from eastern europe was also an insincere cheater, as they were all initiated by Harikesh Swami, another fake guru.

 

Being initiated by a fallen guru is not the test of sincerity, the test of sincerity is aiming for krsna no matter what conditions come your way, whether your guru falls or not, whether your temple is destroyed or not, whether vaishnavas are nice to you or not, whether your material circumstances are condusive or not. People leave Krsna conciousness because their guru cult dream was destoryed or for many other reasons, none justifiable, but we must do our best to make everyone feel welcome as this pleases krsna, who stays or not is not in our hands.

 

 

Blaming the innocent and ignorant new devotees instead of the false pretenders posing as gurus is a very ignorant analysis of the history.

 

Both the followers that follow their guru to hell and the gurus that lead them to hell get their due reactions they are both insincere. The follwers fall away from krsna, and the imposter gets his due.

 

 

Sincere devotees may go through fake initiations, but in the end Krishna gives them Srila Prabhupada, the real guru and guiding light of ISKCON. It is not just a case of cheaters and the cheated (all devotees being insincere), but a case of Krishna removing the darkness of kali that has entered ISKCON

 

Sincere devotees may go through "fake" initiations but in the end if they are truely sincere Krsna gives them guidance in any number of ways it may be prabhupada, other self realised (or not) vaishnavas or paramatma himself. None of us are sincere completely. So krsna gives us many obstacles to smash our misconceptions, some of us are ready to go through them some of us arent ready yet. We may see devotees we respect fall but there is a lesson from krsna in everything we see if we choose to see it from his angle rather than our egoistic angle.

[sanatan]

 

Quote:

 

Both the followers that follow their guru to hell and the gurus that lead them to hell get their due reactions they are both insincere. The follwers fall away from krsna, and the imposter gets his due.

 

 

 

Sincere devotees may go through "fake" initiations but in the end if they are truely sincere Krsna gives them guidance in any number of ways it may be prabhupada, other self realised (or not) vaishnavas or paramatma himself. None of us are sincere completely. So krsna gives us many obstacles to smash our misconceptions, some of us are ready to go through them some of us arent ready yet. We may see devotees we respect fall but there is a lesson from krsna in everything we see if we choose to see it from his angle rather than our egoistic angle.

 

In the first paragraph, you've made a blanket generalization, and have also re-repeated a very tired rationalization for bad leadership.

 

In the second, you contradict what you said in the first.

[vijay]

 

In the first paragraph, you've made a blanket generalization, and have also re-repeated a very tired rationalization for bad leadership.

 

In the second, you contradict what you said in the first.

 

In the first paragraph what im saying is that if you leave KC because of bad leadership (following your guru to hell) or any other reason its insincerity. I am not giving a rationalisation for bad leadership. Prabhupada condemns both blind following AND pretenders. To just blame one part is foolish. Both need to be educated the leadership and the followers. Krsna's system is perfect.

 

I dont see whats contradictory in the second paragraph. What im saying is that if we're sincere to some degree we'll stick to the process no matter what material obstacles come in our way and instead see these obstacles as mercy, stepping stones to krsna rather than an excuse to leave the process. (Rejecting what is unfavorable and accepting what is favorable, if something that began favorable becomes unfavorable then reject it.)

[ksbh]

So you don't believe in the fact that by Krishna's mercy, one finds a guru? That's from the Sastra, by the way. If he happens to find a wrong guru or unqualified guru, it's partly his fault for not being sincere enough.

 

I have to agree with Vijay on this point. I don't see his reasoning as 'very tired rationalization for bad leadership'. Can't just blame the fallen guru. If it's simply the Guru's fault, how come Krishna lead the person to that guru?

 

 

In the first paragraph, you've made a blanket generalization, and have also re-repeated a very tired rationalization for bad leadership.

 

In the second, you contradict what you said in the first.