Why ISKCON Gurus Get Sick Often?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

So you don't believe in the fact that by Krishna's mercy, one finds a guru? If he happens to find a wrong guru or unqualified guru, it's partly his fault for not being sincere enough.

By Krishna's mercy one gets a guru. But that speaks nothing about why you get a fake guru. As Prabhupada has said, there is actually no such thing as a fake guru (even though we use these words to convey an idea), as guru means real. Anything else just isn't a guru at all.

 

So then the next question, why does one get this thing we refer to as a fake guru? It is just another material karmic reaction. You get it the same reason why you get a cold, the same reason why you stub your toe, the same reason why you have any reaction within this world. It doesn't identify one as insincere. When someone stubs his toe, it isn't proof that he was spiritually insincere. They just received some of their karmic reactions. In the same way, when someone suffers poor leadership (posing as spiritual leadership) it is because of karmic reactions.

 

Krishna's mercy brings a true guru. Some of us don't even know we have received that mercy of Krishna. Some of us have suffered karmic reactions in the form of false spiritual leadership, and simultaneously have also received Krishna's mercy in the form of Srila Prabhupada. Just because one has suffered a karmic reaction (stubbed one's toe, got a cold, been initiated by a pretender) doesn't mean they haven't received the mercy of Krishna.

 

Thus sincerity and insincerity can't be judged based on how many fake gurus one has received. It simply depends on whether they have made contact with Krishna's pure representative. And anyone who has come in contact with Srila Prabhupada has come in contact with Krishna's pure representative. Practically speaking, everyone who has come in contact with ISKCON has received Krishna's special mercy.

[vijay]

This can be applied to our different types of faith in and understanding of guru. All of us start off impure then as we become purified our fanatical/obsessive types of faith improve in quality until we are in pure goodness and understand things as they are.

 

 

 

TRANSLATIO

N

 

 

According to one's existence under the various modes of nature, one evolves a particular kind of faith. The living being is said to be of a particular faith according to the modes he has acquired.

 

PURPORT

 

 

Everyone has a particular type of faith, regardless of what he is. But his faith is considered good, passionate or ignorant according to the nature he has acquired. Thus, according to his particular type of faith, one associates with certain persons. Now the real fact is that every living being, as is stated in the Fifteenth Chapter, is originally the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Therefore one is originally transcendental to all the modes of material nature. But when one forgets his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead and comes into contact with the material nature in conditional life, he generates his own position by association with the different varieties of material nature. The resultant artificial faith and existence are only material. Although one may be conducted by some impression, or some conception of life, still, originally, he is nirguna, or transcendental. Therefore one has to become cleansed of the material contamination that he has acquired in order to regain his relationship with the Supreme Lord. That is the only path back without fear: Krsna consciousness. If one is situated in Krsna consciousness, then that path is guaranteed for his elevation to the perfectional stage. If one does not take to this path of self-realization, then he is surely to be conducted by the influence of the modes of nature.

The word sattva, or faith, is very significant in this verse. Sattva or faith always comes out of the works of goodness. One's faith may be in a demigod or some created God or some mental concoction. It is supposed to be one's strong faith in something that is productive of the works of material goodness. But in material conditional life, no works of material nature are completely purified. They are mixed. They are not in pure goodness. Pure goodness is transcendental; in purified goodness one can understand the real nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As long as one's faith is not completely in purified goodness, the faith is subject to contamination by any of the modes of material nature. The contaminated modes of material nature expand to the heart. Therefore according to the position of the heart in contact with a particular mode of material nature, one's faith is established. It should be understood, that if one's heart is in the mode of goodness, his faith is also in the mode of goodness. If his heart is in the mode of passion, his faith is also in the mode of passion. And if his heart is in the mode of darkness, illusion, his faith is also thus contaminated. Thus we find different types of faith in this world, and there are different types of religions due to different types of faith. The real principle of religious faith is situated in the mode of pure goodness, but because the heart is tainted, we find different types of religious principles. Thus according to different types of faith, there are different kinds of worship

[vijay]

The way I understand it is that if you leave the process for any of these material reasons (including guru falldown) then that is insincerity (A material excuse to give up KC). Sincerity is always looking for krishna no matter what happens, (political, social etc)

[ksbh]

That is the way I see it too.

 

 

The way I understand it is that if you leave the process for any of these material reasons (including guru falldown) then that is insincerity (A material excuse to give up KC). Sincerity is always looking for krishna no matter what happens, (political, social etc)

[Kulapavana]

the fake disciple = fake "guru" argument does not hold much water in Iskcon.

 

first of all, even the most fake Iskcon gurus actually acted within a bona fide institution and connected disciples with real acharyas like Srila Prabhupada and real scriptural knowledge in his books.

 

second, during the zonal 'acharya' days new people did not have an option when it came to which guru to accept. to call all of these devotees 'bogus' is absurd to the extreme at best, and outright offensive at worst.

 

most importantly though, many devotees were truly helped and inspired by these imperfect gurus, because KRSNA often acted THROUGH them.

[Visnu]

 

first of all, even the most fake Iskcon gurus actually acted within a bona fide institution and connected disciples with real acharyas like Srila Prabhupada and real scriptural knowledge in his books...

 

most importantly though, many devotees were truly helped and inspired by these imperfect gurus, because KRSNA often acted THROUGH them.

 

No they weren't, most devotees were booted out by these fake Iskcon gurus:

 

"FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters." (Jayadvaita Swami 1996)

[Kulapavana]

 

No they weren't, most devotees were booted out by these fake Iskcon gurus:

 

"FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters." (Jayadvaita Swami 1996)

 

I was living in Iskcon temples at that time and I dont need anybody's quotes to tell me how it was. Sure, there was a lot of turmoil in some zones and like JS says, a lot of devotees left in those days. But the problem was not limited to the 11 gurus - Iskcon was full of arogant and manipulative leaders who were abusing their power. That corruption was there even when Prabhupada was on the planet! It just got a lot worse after he left.

 

Still, there was A LOT of good preaching done in these years - I know it first hand as I was a part of it. I do not regret being initiated by Harikesha - he did a lot for me, and his activities inspired me for many years.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

most importantly though, many devotees were truly helped and inspired by these imperfect gurus, because KRSNA often acted THROUGH them...

 

I was living in Iskcon temples at that time and I dont need anybody's quotes to tell me how it was.

I can't agree that child molesters like Kirtanananda "truly helped devotees", nor that "Krishna acted through them". Krishna acted through his pure devotees such as Srila Prabhupada. Because Prabhupada's books are still being distributed, ISKCON is still making new devotees. Everything is based on the potency of Prabhupada's books, not on the preaching of child molesters.

 

Anyone with common sense can understand that if ISKCON hadn't had the fake zonal acharya's the preaching success would have been many times greater than it has been. They were simply a drag and disruption to Prabhupada's movement. Prabhupada's books were so potent that those books continued to make new devotees despite the presence of rogues within ISKCON.

 

Some people mistakenly think that potency actually came from the rogues themselves with Krishna acting through them, when in reality they were just blocks clouding the potency in Prabhupada's books.

 

Someone spends hundreds of thousands of dollars making a flying UFO [yes, literally], and we are expected to think it was Krishna acting through him? These people were just literally insane, but no one wanted to point it out.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

I can't agree that child molesters like Kirtanananda "truly helped devotees", nor that "Krishna acted through them". Krishna acted through his pure devotees such as Srila Prabhupada. Because Prabhupada's books are still being distributed, ISKCON is still making new devotees. Everything is based on the potency of Prabhupada's books, not on the preaching of child molesters.

 

Anyone with common sense can understand that if ISKCON hadn't had the fake zonal acharya's the preaching success would have been many times greater than it has been. They were simply a drag and disruption to Prabhupada's movement. Prabhupada's books were so potent that those books continued to make new devotees despite the presence of rogues within ISKCON.

 

Some people mistakenly think that potency actually came from the rogues themselves with Krishna acting through them, when in reality they were just blocks clouding the potency in Prabhupada's books.

 

Someone spends hundreds of thousands of dollars making a flying UFO [yes, literally], and we are expected to think it was Krishna acting through him? These people were just literally insane, but no one wanted to point it out.

Well said!

[Kulapavana]

 

I can't agree that child molesters like Kirtanananda "truly helped devotees", nor that "Krishna acted through them".

not all of them were like Kirtanananda, and some made sure millions of Prabhupada's books were distributed all over the world including communist countries. some risked their lives while doing that. I have seen it with my own eyes. as far as I'm concerned, Krsna acted through at least some of them.

 

and as to keeping Kirtanananda and people like him in power and position - it was Prabhupada who put them there. apparently, Krsna had a plan we might not quite understand right now.

[Visnu]

 

not all of them were like Kirtanananda, and some made sure millions of Prabhupada's books were distributed all over the world including communist countries. some risked their lives while doing that. I have seen it with my own eyes. as far as I'm concerned, Krsna acted through at least some of them.

 

and as to keeping Kirtanananda and people like him in power and position - it was Prabhupada who put them there. apparently, Krsna had a plan we might not quite understand right now.

 

Prabhupada only authorised the 11 to be ritviks (officiating priests) - see July 9th 1977 directive to all GBCs and TPs. It is the 11 who decided to make themselves into mahabhagavata diksa gurus - and the rest, as they say, is history

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

not all of them were like Kirtanananda, and some made sure millions of Prabhupada's books were distributed all over the world including communist countries.

Even materialists may distribute books if it is in their material self-interest. When someone positions themself as the pure devotee guru of the entire world, it is their selfishness that pushes them to distribute books and bring in new disciples for themselves. They spread Krishna consciousness because the end result was that they would get more disciples, fame, money and worship.

[vistor_rkd]

this remark by u itself is a disrespect to srila prabhupad.do u think he was a fool to give all these vaishnavas sanyasa:confused: .even a 14 yr old guy like me know the consequences of vaishnava aparadha.they r getting these diseases because they r taking the karmas of their disciples &the environment is more polluted & not the same as before.it is obvious that they would get diseased.may the lord of the universe give u intelligence

[Kulapavana]

 

Even materialists may distribute books if it is in their material self-interest. When someone positions themself as the pure devotee guru of the entire world, it is their selfishness that pushes them to distribute books and bring in new disciples for themselves. They spread Krishna consciousness because the end result was that they would get more disciples, fame, money and worship.

 

whatever... you see only what you want to see.

 

are you saying that apparently Prabhupada surrounded himself only with power hungry corrupt monsters? what a great judge of character he was if he could not see that... (sarcasm)

 

truth is, most o these devotees started on the right foot, but then fell out of step when their pride and arrogance started to grow. at one time most of them had a very sincere desire to please Prabhupada and their service was not selfish. I served Lord Krishna, Srila Prabhupada, and Harikesh as my guru, and I have no regrets. I got more benefit than I deserved, even though I never really believed in the "pure devotee descended from Vaikuntha" propaganda peddled by Iskcon in regards to zonal 'acharyas'. I took one look at Kirtanananda in 1987 and I could see he was as bogus as it gets, standing with his dirty attack dog 3 feet away from the Deities. I saw Harikesh as a human being, not some "as good as God guru". I respected him for what he was, not for what he was painted to be by the primitive understanding of guru-tattva that still permeates Iskcon. spare me the hype, prabhu.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

spare me the hype, prabhu.

I'm curious about your view on Harikesh's flying UFO spaceship? How many hundreds of thousands of dollars did it cost, and what ever happened to it?

 

As a disciple of Harikesh, what was your view of that project and how did you see it connected to Srila Prabhupada and Krishna's devotional service?

[Kulapavana]

 

I'm curious about your view on Harikesh's flying UFO spaceship? How many hundreds of thousands of dollars did it cost, and what ever happened to it?

 

As a disciple of Harikesh, what was your view of that project and how did you see it connected to Srila Prabhupada and Krishna's devotional service?

 

it was a sheer nonsense completely unconnected with devotional service, or reality for that matter. I was never involved in anything like that.

 

yes, towards the end Harikesh did things he is not even proud of himself. yet, in the earlier years he performed great services to SP's mission and I will never forget that. I saw what he had to go through when preaching behind the Iron Curtain. I was there. I wish I had 1/100 of his credits for devotional services rendered. like I said, I respect him as a person, for the good things he did, and I try to have compassion for his shortcomings.

[vijay]

 

Even materialists may distribute books if it is in their material self-interest.

 

Krsna says there are 4 types of people that come to him, they may do things for krsna for different reasons but in the long run (which most of us seem incapable or unwilling to acknowledge for some reason) is that they will get a huge amount of purification and spiritual credits rather than the armchair idealists who benifit the world very little (and also do very little negative stuff either)

 

 

When someone positions themself as the pure devotee guru of the entire world, it is their selfishness that pushes them to distribute books and bring in new disciples for themselves.

 

Devotees that acted on the guru platform had different amounts of selfish interests, if your talking about post acarya system we had personalities like Gour Govinda swami, even if all of them we're completely selfish I rather have them giving me krsna conciousness then not at all. (yes it would be better if their motivations were pure but hey thats not always how things work in krsnas way of doing things ).

 

 

They spread Krishna consciousness because the end result was that they would get more disciples, fame, money and worship.

 

I guess they did to some degree, and may be some had a spot of good motivation in there as well. Again the spiritual activities they have done in distributing prabhupadas message is infinately incomparable to the material chaos they caused.

 

This may sound like a justification or rationalisation for what they have done, but to those looking at a short term view of what happend 25 years ago on planet earth this is a big deal and deserves the wrath of god, morality has been comprimised and the spread of the movement has been checked (Krsna can do whatever, whenever if he feels people are qualified nothing can check his desire), the way krsna see's it is very different, he see's these guys have been scum for millions of lives and in this life they had a brief moment where they made the effort although imperfectly. Sure they will get Karma but material karma is temporary spiritual bank account is eternal.

[Puru_Das]

 

 

Bogus Gurus

 

 

 

 

 

1.47

paricarya-yaso-lipsuh sisyad gurur na hi

One who accepts disciples for personal service and fame is unfit to be a guru. (Visnu Smrti)

 

1.48

guravo bahavah santi sisya-vittapaharakah

durlabhah sad-gurur devi sisya-santapaharakah

Many gurus take advantage of their disciples and plunder them. They exploit their disciples for sex, and use them to amass wealth, but a guru who can remove the miseries of his disciples is very rare. (Purana-vakya)

 

 

 

The Injunction to Abandon a Bogus Guru

 

 

 

 

 

1.49

guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah

utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate

A guru addicted to sensual pleasure and polluted by vice, who is ignorant and has no power to discriminate between right and wrong, or who is not on the path of suddha-bhakti must be abandoned.

(Mahabharata, Udyoga-parva, 179.25)

 

1.50

snehad va lobhato vapi yo grhniyad diksaya

tasmin gurau sa-sisye tat devata sapa apatet

If a guru, disregarding the standard for giving diksa, gives the mantra to his disciple out of greed or mundane affection, he is cursed by the gods along with that disciple.

(Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.7)

 

1.51

yo vyakti nyaya rahitam anyayena srnoti yah

tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam

One who assumes the dress and position of an acarya, who speaks against the conclusions of Srimad Bhagavatam and other scriptures, or performs kirtana opposed to the proper glorification of Sri Krsna, certainly goes to hell for countless lifetimes along with his disciples and whoever else hears such non-devotional talks and kirtanas.

(Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.101)

 

1.52

vaisnava-vidvesi cet parityajya eva. "guror api avaliptasye" ti smaranat,

vaisnava-bhava-rahityena avaisnavataya avaisnavopadisteneti vacana-visaya tvacca.

Yathokta-laksanasya sri-guror-avidyamanatayastu tasyaiva maha-bhagavatasyaikasya

nitya-sevanam paramam sreyah.

A guru who is envious of pure devotees, who blasphemes them, or behaves maliciously towards them should certainly be abandoned, remembering the verse "guror api avaliptasya" (See 1.49). Such an envious guru lacks the mood and character of a Vaisnava. The sastras enjoin that one should not accept initiation from a non-devotee (avaisnavopadistena... See 1.54). Knowing these injunctions of the scriptures, a sincere devotee abandons a false guru who is envious of devotees. After leaving one who lacks the true qualities of a guru, if a devotee is without aspiritual guide, his only hope is to seek out a mahabhagavata vaisnava and serve him. By constantly rendering service to such a pure devotee, one will certainly attain the highest goal of life.

(Bhakti-sandarbha, Annucheda 238)

 

 

from: Sri Gaudiya Kantahara

Guru Tattva

http://bvml.org/SGK/01.html

[Puru_Das]

". . . But the good preceptor claims our sincere and complete allegiance. The good disciple makes a complete surrender of himself at the feet of the preceptor. But the submission of the disciple is neither irrational or blind. It is complete on condition that the preceptor himself continues to be altogether good. The disciple retains the right of renouncing his allegiance to the preceptor the moment he is satisfied that the preceptor is a fallible creature like himself. Nor does a good preceptor accept any one as his disciple unless the latter is prepared to submit to him freely. A good preceptor is in duty bound to renounce a disciple who is not sincerely willing to follow his instructions fully. If a preceptor accepts as his disciple one who refuses to be wholly guided by him, or if a disciple submits to a preceptor who is not wholly good, such preceptor and such disciple are, both of them, doomed to fall from their spiritual state.

 

 

No one is a good preceptor who has not realised the Absolute. One who has realised the Absolute is saved from the necessity of walking on the worldly path. The good preceptor who lives the spiritual life is, therefore, bound to be wholly good. He should be wholly free from any desire for anything of this world whether good or bad. The categories of good and bad do not exist in the Absolute. In the Absolute everything is good. We can have no idea in our present state of this absolute goodness. Submission to the Absolute is not real unless it is also itself absolute. It is on the plane of the Absolute that the disciple is required to submit completely to the good preceptor. On the material plane there can be no such thing as complete submission. The pretence of complete submission to the bad preceptor is responsible for the corruptions that are found in the relationship of the ordinary worldly guru and his equally worldly-minded disciples.

 

 

All honest thinkers will realise the logical propriety of the position set forth above. But most persons will be disposed to believe that a good preceptor in the above sense may not be found in this world. This is really so. Both the good preceptor and his disciple belong to the spiritual realm. But spiritual discipleship is nevertheless capable of being realised by persons who belong to this world. Otherwise there wold be no religion at all in the world. But because the spiritual life happens to be realizable in this world it does not follow that it is the worldly existence which is capable of being improved into the spiritual. As a matter of fact the one is perfectly incompatible with the other. They are categorically different from one another. The good preceptor although he appears to belong to this world is not really of this world. No one who belongs to this world can deliver us from worldliness. The good preceptor is a denizen of the spiritual world who has been enabled by the will of God to appear in this world in order to enable us to realise the spiritual existence.

 

 

The plain meaning of the Shastras should, therefore, be our only guide in the search of the good preceptor when we actually feel the need of his guidance. The Scriptures have defined the good preceptor as one who himself leads the spiritual life. It is not any worldly qualifications that make the good preceptor. It is by unreserved submission to such a preceptor that we can be helped to reenter into the realm that is our real home but which unfortunately is veritable terra incognita to almost all of us at present and also impossible of access to one body and mind alike which is the result of the disease of abuse of our faculty of free reason and the consequent accumulation of a killing load of worldly experiences which we have learnt to regard as the very stuff of our existence.

================================================================

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura penned the original document in the year 442 of the Chaitanya Era, corresponding to December, 1928, on the western calendar. The original treatise can still be found in various Gaudiya archives, under volume 26, number 7, of the Shri Sajjana-toshani.

 

from:

Initiation Into Spiritual Life

http://bvml.org/SBSST/diksa.htm

 

**********************************************************

". . . 'Do not practice the craft of a Guru for the purpose of injuring others through malice. Do not adopt the trade of a Guru in order to get immersed in the slough of this world. But if you can, indeed, be My guileless servant you will be endowed with My power - then you need not fear.'"

 

from:

Assuming Responsibility Of Being Guru

http://bvml.org/SBSST/guru.htm

[Srimanta]

 

In the recent past we have seen many ISKCON gurus get sick often and have passed away with fatal diseases like cancer. When they have reasonably been good enough and healthy why should they get such diseases?

 

Usually pure devotees don't get afflicted with such deadly diseases. Which pure devotee in our sampradaya has passed away with fatal diseases or in car crashes?

 

Is it because the present ISKCON gurus are not able to deal with the karma they take from their disciples during initiation? A siddha bhakta, pure devotee can easily deal with karma and get away from them. Or is it because the gurus just are not qualified to be gurus?

 

Won't it be better for them to just remain as senior devotee preachers and be an inspiration for other devotees. That way they can remain longer alive and contribute more to ISKCON than become incompetent gurus and get lost with the karma of their disciples.

 

Why to worry about those who are sick? Krsna is not sick!!! Think about Krsna only that will take away all sickness.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I guess they did to some degree, and may be some had a spot of good motivation in there as well.

I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons why people take the position of guru, especially while they are not liberated. Many are probably able to justify it in their minds in some philosophical manner. People like Harikesh, Kirtanananda, Bhagavan, Bhavananda, etc., knew they weren't self realized. Without having "seen the truth" what can you offer to your disciples. People like Satsvarup still try to cling on to the guru position even after falling down, saying "no one is perfect, we are all working our way towards perfection." That is fine for a disciple, but not for an acharya and spiritual master. The spiritual master must not be an imperfect conditioned soul.

 

A few ISKCON devotees probably take the position of guru sincerely thinking its the right thing to do. They believe the spiritual master may be a conditioned soul as long as he follows the four regulative principles and chants 16 rounds of hare krishna mahamantra. Their view of guru is really just an expanded ritvik theory. Personally they have none of the divine qualities of a spiritual master, but they just try to link you to Prabhupada and as such Prabhupada delivers you. Does one really need a conditioned soul to receive the mercy of Krishna, or can a conditioned soul liberate you? Certainly not, as he cannot give something which he has never attained and has no control over. He himself is struggling for deliverance from the material world, and as such he isn't the "boat" that can help you cross it.

 

Other rare saints may be there, but practically speaking the amount of damage done by 100 pretenders really is incomparable to the present day actions of one or two saints (if they are there). The damage done by the pretenders isn't just material damage (i.e. X dollars stollen, Y temples closed, etc.). They have destroyed the spiritual lives of thousands and thousands of sincere devotees. Prabhupada has worked hard to give Krishna consciousness to the world, but these pretenders have acted in a way directly opposite to Prabhupada's intended desire. Destroying the spiritual lives of devotees is not just a material sinful activity. It is an aparadha that cannot be easily forgiven, not even by Krishna. No amount of devotional service will purify one of that offense. One actually loses the right to perform devotional service. Externally he may continue doing the same physical activities, but it is not devotional service.

 

When saints do come, it is ISKCON policy to ban them and attempt to throw them out of ISKCON. You mentioned Gour Govinda Maharaj, but he was the one the GBC (i.e. ISKCON gurus) were trying to ban and throw out of ISKCON. Harikesh banned Gour Govinda Maharaj from coming into eastern europe because he didn't want to lose disciples and money to him. These are not the actions of a devotee. He wasn't the only one to do this. If GGM hadn't passed away, he would have been thrown out of ISKCON.

 

 

Again the spiritual activities they have done in distributing prabhupadas message is infinately incomparable to the material chaos they caused.

Those who have clearly studied the history will know that the amount of damage they have done completely outweighed what "service" they did. Kirtanananda's molesting children, having people killed, turning Prabhupada's movement into a drug smuggling cartel, making female devotees act as prostitutes, completely changing Prabhupada's teachings, sitting himself on a throne with a kings crown and scepter while the devotees were taught to no longer chant Hare Krishna, purposely breaking apart families to increase income collection, appointing homosexuals in positions of power throughout ISKCON (most of whom are still on the GBC today), destroying the spiritual lives of thousands, and of course creating such a hatred for ISKCON amongst the American population that hardly a single person would even consider becoming a devotee for the next 50 years.

 

Now compare that to what he did: he made a broken, run down "palace of gold" with slave labor and drug money. That really isn't any accomplishment at all. If you go in person to New Vrindavan and see the crumbling building in the middle of nowhere, which cost thousands of devotees spiritual lives, you will think, "What was the use?"

 

Whatever limited spiritual success ISKCON has had after Srila Prabhupada's departure, it was done by the potency of Srila Prabhupada. Foolish people think the spiritual credit is due to the corrupt leaders who usurped Prabhupada's movement. They did nothing but break this movement into pieces, and then ran off with the money after creating chaos.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Why to worry about those who are sick? Krsna is not sick!!! Think about Krsna only that will take away all sickness.

 

One of the symptoms of their sickness is the havoc they have been creating in society. This is distressing to those who have some affection for Srila Prabhupada and his mission.

 

 

The pseudo-religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of altruistic and philanthropic activities and in the guise of religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. To mislead the people in general, they themselves become so-called acaryas, but do nt even follow the principles of the acaryas.

 

These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in Bhagavad-gita (Bg. 16.19-20) that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell. Sri Isopanisad confirms that these pseudo-religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification. [sri Isopanisad mantra 12 purport]

 

[vijay]

 

Those who have clearly studied the history will know that the amount of damage they have done completely outweighed what "service" they did.

 

I dont see how anyone can destroy anyones spiritual life if the follower is genuine. This hate or blame mentality that people carry is baggage, and shows that they do not trust krsna's system nor understand it even though posing as scholors.

 

The ONLY way we can help others is by educating them and being examples ourselves. I dont see how anyone is in a postition to say that x person did no spiritual good and even if he did its out weighed by x,y,z. Person K should of done this and that. Only Krsna and guru know for certain, we just speculate according to the emotions or condionings we have quoting certain things that go with what we feel.

 

Ultimately person K and others are acting out of their conditioning as they had no powerful leader to to keep them in check anymore. We cant say that their conditioning should have disappeared. Krsna does not do that, who are we to wish it to happen. The only thing we can do is become genuine if we really care, so we can become the better leaders and educate the followers to become better followers. Otherwise we have a whole bunch of people feeling hurt being the jury and the judges living in their ideal world. Prabhupadas purpose wasnt to pass judgment on xyz, tom dick and harry, he was happy for any little good they did and tried to keep them on track when they meesed up, learning from history is one thing trying to shove all the blame on a few guys is another. If we really care like prabhupada says below we can be pure quite easily like he was himself and give an alternative but no most of us dont want to do that. its easier to talk about injustices and how things should of been different. Even if one of these fake gurus gave out a single book where one person became serious prabhupada is pleased and inturn krsna, we may speculate that that can be wiped completely but im not sure of that there are many quotes that suggest spriritual credits are eternal and aprahadas are like freezing those credits not loosing them (even though we may wish they lose them).

 

 

Reporter: Have you ever had people come to you who had previously been involved with a fake guru?

Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes, there are many.

Reporter: Were their spiritual lives in any way spoiled by the fake gurus?

Çréla Prabhupäda: No, they were genuinely seeking something spiritual, and that was their qualification. God is within everyone's heart, and as soon as someone genuinely seeks Him, He helps that person find a genuine guru.

Reporter: Have the real gurus like yourself ever tried to put a stop to the false gurus—that is, put pressure on them to put them out of business, so to speak?

Çréla Prabhupäda: No, that is not my purpose. I started my movement simply by chanting Hare Kåñëa. I chanted in New York in a place called Tompkins Square Park, and soon people began to come to me. In this way, the Kåñëa consciousness movement gradually developed. Many accepted, and many did not accept. Those who are fortunate have accepted.

Reporter: Don't you feel that people are suspicious because of their experience with fake gurus? If you went to a quack dentist and he broke your tooth, you might be suspicious about going to another dentist.

Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes. Naturally, if you are cheated, you become suspicious. But this does not mean that if you are cheated once, you will always be cheated. You should find someone genuine. But to come to Kåñëa consciousness, you must be either very fortunate or well aware of this science. From the Bhagavad-gétä we understand that the genuine seekers are very few: manuñyäëäà sahasreñu kaçcid yatati siddhaye [bg. 7.3]. Out of many millions of people, there may be only one who is interested in spiritual life. Generally, people are interested in eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. So how can we expect to find many followers? It is not difficult to notice that people have lost their spiritual interest. And almost all those who are actually interested are being cheated by so-called spiritualists. You cannot judge a movement simply by the number of its followers. If one man is genuine, then the movement is successful. It is not a question of quantity, but quality.

Reporter: I wondered how many people you think might have been taken in by fake gurus.

Çréla Prabhupäda: Practically everyone. [Laughter.] There is no question of counting. Everyone.

Reporter: This would mean thousands of people, wouldn't it?

Çréla Prabhupäda: Millions. Millions have been cheated, because they want to be cheated. God is omniscient. He can understand your desires. He is within your heart, and if you want to be cheated, God sends you a cheater.

Reporter: ls it possible for everyone to attain the perfectional stage you spoke of previously?

Çréla Prabhupäda: Within a second. Anyone can attain perfection within a second—providing he is willing. The difficulty is that no one is willing. In the Bhagavad-gétä (18.66) Kåñëa says, sarva-dharmän parityajya mäm ekaà çaraëaà vraja: "Simply surrender unto Me." But who is going to surrender to God? Everyone says, "Oh, why should I surrender to God? I will be independent." If you simply surrender, it is a second's business. That's all. But no one is willing, and that is the difficulty.

Reporter: When you say that lots of people want to be cheated, do you mean that lots of people want to carry on with their worldly pleasures and at the same time, by chanting a mantra or by holding a flower, achieve spiritual life as well? Is this what you mean by wanting to be cheated?

Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes, this is like a patient thinking, "I shall continue with my disease, and at the same time I shall become healthy." It is contradictory. The first requirement is that one become educated in spiritual life. Spiritual life is not something one can understand by a few minutes' talk. There are many philosophy and theology books, but people are not interested in them. That is the difficulty. For instance, the Çrémad-Bhägavatam is a very long work, and if you try to read this book, it may take many days just to understand one line of it. The Bhägavatam describes God, the Absolute Truth, but people are not interested. And if, by chance, someone becomes a little interested in spiritual life, he wants something immediate and cheap. Therefore, he is cheated. Actually, human life is meant for austerity and penance. That is the way of Vedic civilization. In Vedic times they would train boys as brahmacärés; no sex life was allowed at all up to the age of twenty-five. Where is that education now? A brahmacäré is a student who lives a life of complete celibacy and obeys the commands of his guru at the gurukula [school of the spiritual master]. Now schools and colleges are teaching sex from the very beginning, and twelve—or thirteen-year-old boys and girls are having sex. How can they have a spiritual life? Spiritual life means voluntarily accepting some austerities for the sake of God realization. That is why we insist on no illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling, or intoxication for our initiated students. Without these restrictions, any "yoga meditation" or so-called spiritual discipline cannot be genuine. It is simply a business deal between the cheaters and the cheated.

Reporter: Thank you very much.

Çréla Prabhupäda: Hare Kåñëa.

[vijay]

.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I dont see how anyone can destroy anyones spiritual life if the follower is genuine. This hate or blame mentality that people carry is baggage, and shows that they do not trust krsna's system nor understand it even though posing as scholors.

When Swami K sexually molests devotee children A, B, C, and D, and those children grow up to hate Prabhupada, it is a fact that Swami K destroyed their spiritual life. You can add to it that child B shoots himself in the head.

 

Criminals need to be exposed, blamed and punished. The fact that ISKCON leaders and gurus continuously protect known criminals shows that corruption is present deep within.

 

If someone points out the crimes, for example child molestation, someone like you says we are all wrotten fault finders who need to have faith in Krishna's system and not judge others. It is a fact that not a single corrupt ISKCON leader has been brought to trial with the help of ISKCON leadership (i.e. testifying against the criminal). It is also a fact that not a single corrupt ISKCON leader has had criminal complaints registered against them by ISKCON leadership.

 

In the outside world, if someone steals money and runs off, a police case is filed. If someone molests a child, a police case if filed. But in the history of ISKCON this has never been done when the leaders have been found to have engaged in these criminal activities.

 

On the contrary, they are glorified for the "wonderful devotional service they did". Someone else will come along and say "if they even gave out one book then Prabhupada is pleased with them" despite the fact that they have chased all the devotees out of ISKCON, misused Krishna's funds, molested the devotee children, and spoilt Prabhupada's name throughout the world. Wearing the dark glasses of blind sentimentality doesn't help Prabhupada's movement and it doesn't please him.

 

Swami K. had a few devotees killed because they disagreed with him... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. sexually abused young devotee children... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. made ISKCON a drug smuggling cartel... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. broke up hundreds of devotee families to increase his income collection... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. forced the women devotees to act as prostitutes... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. completely changed all of Prabhupada's teachings... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

All glories to Srila Bhaktipada! Like the energizer bunny, still a guru after all this because of blind sentimentalists.

http://www.kirtananandaswami.org/

 

 

 

 

When dealing with other gurus like Shankaracharya, Sai Baba, and Mahesh Yogi, devotees need to "kick those mayavadi rascals in their face". But when it comes to child molesters, murderers and other criminals in their own fold, "Krishna is happy with them even if they distributed one book", "We shouldn't judge them. Leave all judgement to Krishna." This is the epitome of blind misguided sentimentalism.

 

Let us look a little closer at your words:

 

Your claim: The ONLY way we can help others is by educating them and being examples ourselves.

 

Practical application: Swami K. is a child molester. Taking your advice, we don't blame him and instead try to set a good example by not being a child molester ourselves. The result is Swami K. continues to molest children despite our perfect example.

 

Your claim: [No one can say] Person K should of done this and that.

 

Practical application: Swami K. molests children. No one can say Swami K. should have done this and shouldn't have molested those children. Only Krishna and Guru can know these things.

 

Your claim: Only Krsna and guru know for certain, we just speculate according to the emotions or condionings we have quoting certain things that go with what we feel.

 

Practical application: Swami K. molests a child. None of us can judge because our judgement is "speculation" based on "emotions" and "conditionings". Only Krishna and Guru can actually know for certain whether Swami K. molesting a child should have been done or not.

 

Your claim: Ultimately person K and others are acting out of their conditioning as they had no powerful leader to keep them in check anymore.

 

Practical application: Swami K. molests a child. Ultimately its not his fault as he didn't have a powerful leader to keep him in check anymore. It's only natural for people without powerful leaders to molest children, so no one should say anything against it or try to judge Swami K.

 

Your claim: We cant say that their conditioning should have disappeared. Krsna does not do that, who are we to wish it to happen.

 

Practical application: Despite all scriptures saying devotional service purifies one and removes all conditioning, still we can't say that it should have happened to Swami K. because "Krishna does not do that". Instead, Krishna makes his devotees become child molesters. And "who are we to wish" that those devotees should be purified instead of becoming child molesters.

 

Your claim: The only thing we can do is become genuine if we really care, so we can become the better leaders and educate the followers to become better followers.

 

Practical application: Swami K. is molesting children, so if we really care the only thing we can do is become a better leader ourselves and try to educate the children to be better children. We shouldn't judge Swami K., but instead try to educate the followers (children) to be better followers.

 

And to take the practical example of Gour Govinda Maharaj which you cited, even he was going to be banned from ISKCON. Your claim that ISKCON will magically clean itself up if you are a better example is proven false in this case. The history shows that even when the better example comes along, none of the corruption changes. Rather they try to throw out the better example.

 

 

Otherwise we have a whole bunch of people feeling hurt being the jury and the judges living in their ideal world.

What you refer to as an "ideal world" the rest of the world refers to as civilization. Having a society where child molesters are judged and punished isn't an ideal world fantasy. Having a society where murderers are in prison instead of being worshipped on Vyasasanas is not an ideal world fantasy.