Why ISKCON Gurus Get Sick Often?

[Kulapavana]

 

....Criminals need to be exposed, blamed and punished. The fact that ISKCON leaders and gurus continuously protect known criminals shows that corruption is present deep within.(...)

In the outside world, if someone steals money and runs off, a police case is filed. If someone molests a child, a police case if filed. But in the history of ISKCON this has never been done when the leaders have been found to have engaged in these criminal activities.(...)When dealing with other gurus like Shankaracharya, Sai Baba, and Mahesh Yogi, devotees need to "kick those mayavadi rascals in their face". But when it comes to child molesters, murderers and other criminals in their own fold, "Krishna is happy with them even if they distributed one book", "We shouldn't judge them. Leave all judgement to Krishna." This is the epitome of blind misguided sentimentalism.

do you REALLY want to know know how and when it all started? are YOU ready to talk about it here? because it can be quite unpleasant.

[tackleberry]

Don't make excuses, Kula. If you have something to say, say it. Don't justify the acts of child molestors.

[Visnu]

If you were once a guru and a notorious homosexual paedophile, not only will the GBC forgive you, but they will give you a SALARY, a nice apartment and sit you on a Vyasasana in Mayapur too! (You know who I'm talking about).

 

BUT if you dare, God forbid, commit the heinous crime of saying that Srila Prabhupada is your diksa guru ("DIVYA-JNANA hrde prokasito" - remember that Mr. GBC? We sing it to Srila Prabhupada every morning) - get ready to be kicked out of His Divine Grace's temple and blacklisted as a "demon"!

 

"Therefore, by the influence of the age of Kali, everywhere, politically, socially or religiously, everything is topsy-turvy, and therefore for the sane man it is all regrettable." (SB 1.16.22, purport)

[Kulapavana]

 

Don't make excuses, Kula. If you have something to say, say it. Don't justify the acts of child molestors.

 

it all started very much when Prabhupada was still here. how many Iskcon criminals were handed over to the police for prosecution during these years? NONE. Prabhupada chose do handle things discretely and internally, as to not make bad propaganda for our movement. while the intent was good, the concept backfired big time as it only fostered the culture of internal corruption that had it's peak during the zonal 'acharya' days.

 

just like in Catholic Church, Iskcon offenders (common thieves, women and child abusers, illegal money collectors, etc) were only lightly admonished at best and quietly transferred to a different temple or removed from the institution.

[vijay]

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">I dont see how anyone can destroy anyones spiritual life if the follower is genuine. This hate or blame mentality that people carry is baggage, and shows that they do not trust krsna's system nor understand it even though posing as scholors. </td></tr></tbody></table>

 

You quoted me on the above, the above doesnt mean that we do nothing about someone who violates the law, but you have to atleast philosophically accept that lord krishna is in charge, and gives us what we deserve and desire that doesnt mean not doing our duty.

 

 

If someone points out the crimes, for example child molestation, someone like you says we are all wrotten fault finders who need to have faith in Krishna's system and not judge others.

 

Swami K. had a few devotees killed because they disagreed with him... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. sexually abused young devotee children... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. made ISKCON a drug smuggling cartel... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. broke up hundreds of devotee families to increase his income collection... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. forced the women devotees to act as prostitutes... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

Swami K. completely changed all of Prabhupada's teachings... but so what, if he even distributed one book Prabhupada is happy with him.

 

All glories to Srila Bhaktipada! Like the energizer bunny, still a guru after all this because of blind sentimentalists.

 

 

I've never denied they have done atrocious things, your claim was that any good they have done is wiped because you say so. Now if that gets on your nerves so much then you have the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let us look a little closer at your words:

 

Your claim: The ONLY way we can help others is by educating them and being examples ourselves.

 

Practical application: Swami K. is a child molester. Taking your advice, we don't blame him and instead try to set a good example by not being a child molester ourselves. The result is Swami K. continues to molest children despite our perfect example.

 

The point is that if you educate the masses they will stop going to people like kirtananda. No one is saying that if you have evidence against kirtananda dont use it or dont warn anyone about it, but moaning about it after the event has little use.

 

 

Your claim: [No one can say] Person K should of done this and that.

 

Practical application: Swami K. molests children. No one can say Swami K. should have done this and shouldn't have molested those children. Only Krishna and Guru can know these things.

 

Where did i say no one can say that he is molesting a child? Look at the whole quote and not just what you want to see! Its about your claim that they did no good what so ever!

I dont see how anyone is in a postition to say that x person did no spiritual good and even if he did its out weighed by x,y,z. Person K should of done this and that. Only Krsna and guru know for certain, we just speculate...

 

Your claim: Only Krsna and guru know for certain, we just speculate according to the emotions or condionings we have quoting certain things that go with what we feel.

 

Practical application: Swami K. molests a child. None of us can judge because our judgement is "speculation" based on "emotions" and "conditionings". Only Krishna and Guru can actually know for certain whether Swami K. molesting a child should have been done or not.

 

Same as above! Anger has really clouded you and thats the danger the pendulium swings one way then the other.

 

 

Your claim: Ultimately person K and others are acting out of their conditioning as they had no powerful leader to keep them in check anymore.

 

Practical application: Swami K. molests a child. Ultimately its not his fault as he didn't have a powerful leader to keep him in check anymore. It's only natural for people without powerful leaders to molest children, so no one should say anything against it or try to judge Swami K.

 

Extra sentence at the end of it.

Ultimately person K and others are acting out of their conditioning as they had no powerful leader to to keep them in check anymore. We cant say that their conditioning should have disappeared.

You must of read gita where anger clouds intellegence right?

 

Your claim: We cant say that their conditioning should have disappeared. Krsna does not do that, who are we to wish it to happen.

 

Practical application: Despite all scriptures saying devotional service purifies one and removes all conditioning, still we can't say that it should have happened to Swami K. because "Krishna does not do that". Instead, Krishna makes his devotees become child molesters. And "who are we to wish" that those devotees should be purified instead of becoming child molesters.

 

The point is that you cant demand that soemones conditioning disappears, work on your own one. (That doesnt mean you cant do your duty by reporting or warning someone about a molester) Add context to it the next line was

The only thing we can do is become genuine if we really care, so we can become the better leaders and educate the followers to become better followers.

You need to read it together rather than line by line and twisting your own meanings out of what I've said.

 

Your claim: The only thing we can do is become genuine if we really care, so we can become the better leaders and educate the followers to become better followers.

 

Practical application: Swami K. is molesting children, so if we really care the only thing we can do is become a better leader ourselves and try to educate the children to be better children. We shouldn't judge Swami K., but instead try to educate the followers (children) to be better followers.

 

I guess you can always write letters and tell the police if you have anything if you cant do that then you can shout about it on a bulliten board etc etc. But as prabhupada said the ultimate cure for material suffering is to become Krishna concious and make others Krishna concious you can riddicule that as impractical but i feel thats the only real thing that will save anyone.

 

 

And to take the practical example of Gour Govinda Maharaj which you cited, even he was going to be banned from ISKCON. Your claim that ISKCON will magically clean itself up if you are a better example is proven false in this case. The history shows that even when the better example comes along, none of the corruption changes. Rather they try to throw out the better example.

 

Well then if a pure devotee or near pure devotee cant clean up the movement or us becoming pure wont help, then whats the solution, is their anything more potent than that you have up your sleave?

 

 

What you refer to as an "ideal world" the rest of the world refers to as civilization. Having a society where child molesters are judged and punished isn't an ideal world fantasy. Having a society where murderers are in prison instead of being worshipped on Vyasasanas is not an ideal world fantasy

 

My full quote

 

The only thing we can do is become genuine if we really care, so we can become the better leaders and educate the followers to become better followers. Otherwise we have a whole bunch of people feeling hurt being the jury and the judges living in their ideal world.

What im talking about is people feeling hurt and thus sitting infront of their PC's deciding punishments, living 'in their ideal world'. If you have some sound contribution to make to help lock someone up then make it, but fantasising about how it could of been and should of been is a waste of time. I see so many people old and young talking about this sort of stuff some out of hate and anger others out of some political need to justify their actions not to surrender to anyone, others just so they can blame everyone else for their downfall in bhakti except themselves. A few actually try and learn form the past in a construictive way. Thats the danger i see. (This doesnt mean that you dont report a molester!)

[Srimanta]

 

One of the symptoms of their sickness is the havoc they have been creating in society. This is distressing to those who have some affection for Srila Prabhupada and his mission.

 

Krsna arranges appropriate Guru for appropriate seeker. Prabhupada did not seek your affection but only your devotion to Krsna. Why to worry when Krsna can help to over come all sickness. Only become true lover of Krsna that is your bottom line.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

it all started very much when Prabhupada was still here. how many Iskcon criminals were handed over to the police for prosecution during these years? NONE. Prabhupada chose do handle things discretely and internally, as to not make bad propaganda for our movement. while the intent was good, the concept backfired big time as it only fostered the culture of internal corruption that had it's peak during the zonal 'acharya' days.

 

just like in Catholic Church, Iskcon offenders (common thieves, women and child abusers, illegal money collectors, etc) were only lightly admonished at best and quietly transferred to a different temple or removed from the institution.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however we don't need to agree with it. Kulapavana prabhu's above statement is not upheld by the facts.

HH Jayapataka Maharaja:

There was a con artist who dressed like a sannyasi and collected money in the name of ISKCON. He gave himself the name "Achyutananda" and was known amongst the devotees as "Achyutananda Number Two." He was based in Rajastan and collected near Jaipur. He made a big construction plan for building a temple and somehow copied receipts, rubber stamps and everything else one needed to collect money.

Some of the people who donated money to this Achyutananda appeared in Bombay and said, "We were made a Life Member by Achyutananda in Jaipur." Achyutananda Number One was in Hyderabad so we sent a few devotees to find out who this Achyutananda was, and they discovered that he was a thief. Somehow they got him to see Prabhupada in Mayapur. Prabhupada had called the CID, the equivalent of the FBI in India, and the

Superintendent of Police. In the meantime Prabhupada talked with Achyutananda Number Two, who said to him, "You are a great spiritual master, a gaint, and I feel changed after talking with you. I want to surrender at your lotus feet. I am going to surrender my life to you and do whatever you say. I am giving up all my bad ways."

Prabhupada called in the big police officers who had come to take this person away (a case had already been registered) and said, "I have to give this person asylum because he has surrendered to me.

As a spiritual master, if someone surrenders to me, I have to give him shelter." The police were ready to dive in on him and take him away, but they said, "Guruji, what can we say? But we don't believe this person. He is a thief." Prabhupada said, "What can I do? If he surrenders then I have to accept." Prabhupada told Achyutananda Number Two, "If you follow, you are safe. But if you leave, I am going to turn you over to the police." To keep him engaged

Prabhupada had Achyutananda do some writing for him, but after about ten days some devotees spotted him during mangal arati trying to leave the front gate with a bag. They grabbed him and brought him to Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada said, "You said you were surrendering, and I gave you a chance. But now you have revealed that you are not sincere." He called the police and gave Achyutananda over to them.

 

In case Kulapavana prabhu thinks that HH Jayapataka is a liar, his testimony is confirmed by Mahamaya dd.

The discussion at darshan one evening was about an Indian man going around telling people he was Acyutananda Swami, from ISKCON. Not knowing that Acyutananda Swami is a white American, some people believed this Indian impersonator was him. He convinced them to become life members, but kept their money. When these people came to know they’d been cheated, they were upset.

Srila Prabhupada wanted the devotees to catch this culprit, and somehow they did. He begged for forgiveness and asked to be allowed to become a devotee of Lord Krishna. Srila Prabhupada allowed him to stay in Mayapur to practice Krishna consciousness. Soon, however, he was caught sneaking out the front gate with his belongings, proving his insincerity. He was promptly handed over to the police.[sPIC.15 Mahamaya dd]

 

Or perhaps they are both under the influence of the material energy. However Srila Prabhupada has the following statements to add to the above.

 

My Dear Gurukrpa Swami:

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated August 15, 1975 and have noted the contents. Regarding Manasvi you immediately inform the police that he has misappropriated so much money. He must give the account or we shall prosecute. [Letter to: Gurukrpa:--Vrindaban 26 August, 1975]

 

Govardhana: Srila Prabhupada, one time a boy came to our temple. He chanted and took prasadam, became very blissful, purchased Bhagavad-gita to study.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Govardhana: And then he went away for one week and associated with some Christians, and they convinced him that he had committed a great sin, that he should come to the temple and destroy the Deity. So after dancing and chanting in ecstasy, taking prasadam and reading Bhagavad-gita, he returned to the temple one week later and tried to destroy the Deity.

Prabhupada: Where?

Govardhana: Detroit.

Prabhupada: Oh, he attempted it?

Govardhana: Yes, but we prevented him.

Prabhupada: So we must be careful. There may be so many fanatics.

Govardhana: That shows that because he was not in the constant association of devotees that he lost those qualities.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sangat sanjayate kamah. So why did you not arrest him and give to the police?

Govardhana: We did. We beat him. Then we took him to court and had him put in jail for three months.

Prabhupada: Oh, that’s nice. Yes.

Morning Walk--December 10, 1973, Los Angeles

 

Letter to: Tamala Krsna--Vrindaban3 November, 1972

n.b. Unless the conveyance is made, don't make any settlement with Rathaneparke. If there are any incidents, the men responsible should be taken to the police.

 

So far Dvija Hari is concerned if he is acting in that way, that is abominable. He has collected some money, so my direct order for him is that he should immediately leave Delhi and return to his country, using the money has got. He may go to Los Angeles and stay in the temple there, taking instruction and help from Karandhara. If he tries to commit any further harm to you or attack you physically, inform the police and have him arrested.

[Letter to: Tejiyas –Bombay 19 December, 1972]

 

One thing is, you must be careful with the subscription books so that they are not counterfeit or used by cheaters. One man, Agarwal, was cheating us in Kota and is now captured and given to the police. [Letter to: Yasomatinandana –Mayapur 15 February, 1976]

 

So in conclusion Kulapavana prabhu's above statement

 

how many Iskcon criminals were handed over to the police for prosecution during these years? NONE. Prabhupada chose do handle things discretely and internally,

 

is bogus as it is coming from a poor fund of knowledge.

[Kulapavana]

 

So in conclusion Kulapavana prabhu's above statement

is bogus as it is coming from a poor fund of knowledge.

 

the examples you provided from India relate to the outsider crooks. Neither one of these people was Prabupada's disciple.

 

Over the years there were several Iskcon sannyasis or prominent disciples who ran off with a bunch of money, for example, and none of these matters was handed over to the police. There were quite a few other similar examples, and if you like, you can find a lot of information about it on the internet. Talk to the devotees who were around in these days and they will most likely confirm it, as that is no secret.

[stonehearted]

Over the years there were several Iskcon sannyasis or prominent disciples who ran off with a bunch of money, for example, and none of these matters was handed over to the police. There were quite a few other similar examples, and if you like, you can find a lot of information about it on the internet. Talk to the devotees who were around in these days and they will most likely confirm it, as that is no secret.

Kulapavana's right about this. It happened frequently, a few times in Honolulu alone, and Srila Prabhupada insisted that we handle it internally. It was the same with other kinds of falldowns. Srila Prabhupada's first priority was saving the devotees he worked so hard to train. And he was consistent in this approach; there was no deviation.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Usually pure devotees don't get afflicted with such deadly diseases. Which pure devotee in our sampradaya has passed away with fatal diseases or in car crashes?

 

Is it because the present ISKCON gurus are not able to deal with the karma they take from their disciples during initiation? A siddha bhakta, pure devotee can easily deal with karma and get away from them. Or is it because the gurus just are not qualified to be gurus?

 

I think that there is something to that. Too many people have taken initation cheaply - after some time they return to their former lives of maya. Prabhupada was clearly affected by having initiated so many that turned out to fall down or otherwise become offenders - he decided to stop eating for some time before he left - he wanted to leave - what does that say?

 

It would seem that some of these gurus are being lost to that cheap arrangement. Some gurus are also lost to maya - if there is not a serious enough desire in those taking intiations - then God shall send a cheater to cheat them. He won't be sending anymore 'nice' gurus to take on all the disease and offences of such followers who take it all too cheaply.

 

One part of the issue is that despite that we are given the answers which we need in the vani of Srila Prabhupada - either we don't trust those teachings to be enough or they may be out-moded or we're just too lazy to read them - so we try to find a guru to 'hear' from - such hearing means less efforts on our part of course - then later we find that we still don't have the answers that we need.

 

We have to ask ourselves - do we want a relationship with a guru for real teaching or - do we just want to have some kind of groopie relationship "my guru says" sort of thing?

 

I would say that in ISKCON right now the trend aught to move away from initiations and gurus and focus more on 'teachers' and a teaching of the vani of Srila Prabhupada.

 

If one doesn't really understand the breadth and the length of these teachings - then - one usually then starts having a desire to hear from 'other' gurus - ones that tend to have a different focus [and purity] than Srila Prabhupada.