Sri Bhagavan Ramana on Kevala / Sahaja Nirvikalpa samAdhi

[Guest guest]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

The below is an excerpt from the Book Maha Yoga by Sri Lakshmana Sharma

(pen name "Who") a direct disciple of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi. In the

foreward author confirms that whatever he has written here in this book

has the concurrence of Bhagavan. I would like to bring the relevant topic

to the notice of prabhuji-s of this list.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

// quote //

This Natural State needs to be distinguished from the

Yogi's trance, which is called Samadhi. This we are told by

the Sage of Arunachala. There are various kinds of trance and

the highest is called the Trance without thought ? Nirvikalpa

Samadhi. The description 'without thought' applies also to

the Natural State. The Yogic trance is called the Kevala

Nirvikalpa Samadhi. The Natural State is called the Sahaja

Nirvikalpa Samadhi. 'Sahaja' means 'Natural'. This alone is

the State of Deliverance ? not the other. The distinction is

brought out by the Sage's answer to a question. A disciple

asked him: "I am convinced that one that is in the Nirvikalpa

Samadhi remains unmoved by any activity of the body or the

mind. I base my opinion on my observation of your State.

Someone else maintains that Samadhi and bodily activity are

mutually incompatible and cannot co-exist. Which of these

views is correct?" The Sage answered: "Both of you are right.

There are two Nirvikalpa Samadhis; one is called the Natural

State or Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi, or simply the Sahaja.

The other is called Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Your view

concerns the former; the other view concerns the latter. The

difference between them is this. In the former the mind is

dissolved and lost in the Self; and being so lost, it cannot

revive, and hence there is an end of bondage. In the latter

case, the mind is not dissolved and lost in the Self; it is

immersed in the Light of the Consciousness, which is the Self;

while it is so immersed, the Yogi who is in that Samadhi enjoys

great happiness; but since the mind remains distinct from the

Self, it can and does become active again, and the Yogi

becomes subject to ignorance and bondage. He that has won

the Natural State is the Sage; he is free once for all, and cannot

become bound again. The difference is illustrated thus. The mind of the

Sage that has attained the Natural State is like a

river that has joined the ocean and becomes one with it; it

does not return. The mind of the Yogi that is in the Yogic

Samadhi is like a bucket let down by a rope into a well, where

it remains submerged in the water; by the rope it can be pulled

up again; so the mind of the Yogi can go back to the world; he

is not free; thus he is very much like common men. The Yogi's

mind in Samadhi is like the mind of a sleeper in sleep, with

this difference, that while the sleeper's mind is immersed in

darkness, that of the Yogi is immersed in the Light of the Self.

The Sage, that is, the one whose mind has become dissolved

into the Self, is not affected by the world in any way, though

to all outward appearance he ? that is, his body and mind ?

may be active in the world. His activities are like the eating of

a meal by a somnolent child, who is being fed by the mother,

or like the movements of a carriage in which the driver is

asleep." We shall come to this point later on.

It is thus clear that only the one that has won the Natural

State ? that is, the one that has become egoless ? can become

a Teacher of the Truth about the Self to others ? not the mere

Yogi who has won the Kevala Nirvikalpa. That the attainment

of the latter does not make one free is illustrated by the Sage,

by the instance of a Yogi who had attained this Samadhi and

was able to plunge into it by effort and remain in it years at a

time. Once he came out of Samadhi and felt thirsty. His

disciple being near, he told him to fetch water. But the disciple

was long in bringing the water. Meanwhile the Yogi dived

into Samadhi again. Centuries passed, during which the

sovereignty of the land passed from the Hindus to the Muslims,

and from them to the British. At last the Yogi awoke and his

first thought was that his disciple would have brought the

water; so he just called out 'Have you brought me the water?'

Here clearly the mind was surviving in latency during the Samadhi and

resumed its activity just from where it left off.

While the mind survives, there is no Deliverance.

It seems likely that the Natural State may come after

repeated experience of the other state for some months or years;

the mind might get worn away little by little in this way, just as

a doll of sugar immersed again and again in a sea of sugarcanejuice

might get worn away until nothing is left of it.

// unquote //

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

>>

> The below is an excerpt from the Book Maha Yoga by Sri Lakshmana

Sharma

> (pen name "Who") a direct disciple of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi.

In the

> foreward author confirms that whatever he has written here in this

book

> has the concurrence of Bhagavan. I would like to bring the

relevant topic

> to the notice of prabhuji-s of this list.

 

> While the mind survives, there is no Deliverance.

> It seems likely that the Natural State may come after

> repeated experience of the other state for some months or years;

> the mind might get worn away little by little in this way, just as

> a doll of sugar immersed again and again in a sea of sugarcanejuice

> might get worn away until nothing is left of it.

> // unquote //

>

 

Namaste,

 

This is also called in PYS (1:46-47) 'sabIja, nirvichAra

samAdhi' [with a seed, without a thought]. Higher than this is the

'nirbIja' (without a sed) samAdhi (PYS 1:51).

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> Namaste,

>

> This is also called in PYS (1:46-47) 'sabIja, nirvichAra samAdhi'

[with a

> seed, without a thought]. Higher than this is the 'nirbIja'

(without a sed)

> samAdhi (PYS 1:51).

>

> The highest stage or ultiamate goal in PYS as you mentioned above

is to

> stay in nirbIja or asamprajnAtha samAdhi. But this samAdhi is of

two types

> namely bhAvapratyaya/laya samAdhi (with saMsAra as seed) and

upAyapratyaya

> (cause of means to liberation) according to PYS. First one is not

> recommended for those who are seeking final emancipation. The

second one

> is what has the close proximity of NS as found in some vEdAntic

> texts...prabhuji, I'll not go into the details of this..I shall

only

> mention, there is no room for two types of Atma jnAna in shankara

vEdAnta

> sampradAya.

 

Namaste Bhaskar-ji,

 

We shall continue this discussion, if you wish to, off-list

only. Kindly send me the sutra quotations where nirbIja samadhi and

Atma Jnana is described in PYS as being of two types . Thank you.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

I would also like to second this request. If it is possible, then such a

compilation would be of great help to the members, especially novices like

me, who may have got confused and at times totally lost during the recent

discussions.

 

Pranams.

Veena.

 

On 9/16/06, Peter <not_2 (AT) btinternet (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> Might it be possible for the very learned members who have expressed

> different views on the subject of samadhi (and particularly nirvikalpa

> samadhi) over the last few years and particularly recently to bring

> together a *positive* summary of their own perspective as to the role of

> samadhi in sadhana as related to Sankara's teaching on Advaita Vedanta?

> Summaries that the moderators might agree to save to files area of the

> list?

>

> It seems to me these summaries (from each 'side') would be a valuable

> resource for the group and a reference for future discussions. It may also

> help members, new and old, not to go over the same ground when the subject

> comes up again.

>

> I realize it is easier to ask than to do, so forgive me if this request

> seems impertinent in any way.

>

> best wishes to all advaitins.

>

> Peter

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nmaste Sri Sunder-Ji:

 

This is not a post but may make me help

understand them at the same time.

 

I have not followed the thread but there seems to be some confusion

about these terms:

 

First, let me admit that I have not studied the yogasutra as sri

Bhaskar-Ji and yourself but here my take on it for you to see if that

fits as my $0.02.

 

We all know the generic meaning of -

 

kalpa - (Practicable, Possible, Feasible, something that can be

perceived.)

 

Whe we add the pratyaya "vi" it becomes to asunder to lead away ...

etc. Therefore,

 

vikalpaH - (Doubt, uncertainty, indecision, hesitation)

 

adding another negation of "nir" would mean a positive (double

negative).

 

Therefore the word "nirvikalpa to understanding would mean "with a

specific designed and defined goal in mind" or "sa-biija" and is

critical for any practice. This is like trying to define a target.

One can only possibly hit the target only of one knows the target

(here, as a abstract "biija"

 

The object of any yoga is to practice until the specific activity

gets perfected; therefore "sa-biija" plays a critical role.

 

To me "nir-biija" would be an activity was just happened without

those specific efforts. This state (avasthaa of Yogi's) is often

called as "unnanii avasthaa", where the person has no sense of the

environment he is currently living in. Therefore, he has no need to

practice any saadhanaa, he is already there as he himself has no

attachment to himself.

 

Just some thoughts,

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "Sunder Hattangadi" <sunderh

wrote:

>

> advaitin, bhaskar.yr@ wrote:

> >

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > This is also called in PYS (1:46-47) 'sabIja, nirvichAra samAdhi'

> [with a

> > seed, without a thought]. Higher than this is the 'nirbIja'

> (without a sed)

> > samAdhi (PYS 1:51).

> >

> > The highest stage or ultiamate goal in PYS as you mentioned

above

> is to

> > stay in nirbIja or asamprajnAtha samAdhi. But this samAdhi is of

> two types

> > namely bhAvapratyaya/laya samAdhi (with saMsAra as seed) and

> upAyapratyaya

> > (cause of means to liberation) according to PYS. First one is not

> > recommended for those who are seeking final emancipation. The

> second one

> > is what has the close proximity of NS as found in some vEdAntic

> > texts...prabhuji, I'll not go into the details of this..I shall

> only

> > mention, there is no room for two types of Atma jnAna in shankara

> vEdAnta

> > sampradAya.

>

> Namaste Bhaskar-ji,

>

> We shall continue this discussion, if you wish to, off-

list

> only. Kindly send me the sutra quotations where nirbIja samadhi and

> Atma Jnana is described in PYS as being of two types . Thank you.

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunder

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "ymoharir" <ymoharir wrote:

>

> This is not a post but may make me help

> understand them at the same time.

>

> I have not followed the thread but there seems to be some confusion

> about these terms:

>

 

Namaste,

 

I am very reluctant to continue this thread on-list. If any

off-list discussions happen, I shall summarise my understanding and

send it to the Chief Moderator & anyone else who might be interested,

to decide if it merits posting.

 

Enough quotations from 'Apta'-s (recognized sages) have been

posted, which could guide one. The individual aspirant has to follow

the course that fits her/him best, as eloquently said by Ananda-ji.

 

There is a subhAShita :

 

ananta-shAstraM bahu veditavyaM

alpashcha kAlo bahavashcha vighnAH |

yatsArabhUtaM tadupAsitavyaM

haMso yathA kShiramivAmbumishram.h ||

 

The scriptures are endless; what is to be learnt is vast;

The life-span is brief; hindrances are many.

What is essential must be acquired and practised,

Like the swan separating milk mixed with water.

 

One can follow the path of any sage one finds congenial and

harmonious for oneself. Never compare sages; they have all lived for

our benefit only, the guide-posts to spiritual freedom.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Yadu,

 

You raise an important question and I hope you don't mind my answering

you in this forum. I will send the response to HS as well.

 

You are right in the case of a Jnani who is in the natural state

referred to as Sahaj Samadhi. He is not attached to the instrument of

perception and experience (mind) and in Him all delight is Self-delight

and all bliss is Self-bliss only. As Sri Ramana has pointed out, a yogi

who has won Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi has experienced absorption into

the Self but until the mind is fully resolved in the Self, it will

sprout back up. Therefore, effort in some form such as Atma Vichara will

continue until the Self spontaneously manifests in all its fullness.

 

I vaguely recall that Sri Ramana said something like when someone

experiences Nirvikalpa Samadhi, the force of it will keep the person on

track to the final destination. The distance between Nirvikalpa Samadhi

and Sahaj Samadhi may be brief or long. It depends on the person's

karmic makeup. We have examples of sages who satisfy both criteria.

 

Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi involves the immobility of the body and the

merging of the mind along with the Shakti into the spiritual Heart

through what Sri Ramana referred to as Amrita Nadi or Para Nadi which is

a continuation of the Sushmana. Sushmana stretches from the Muladhara to

the Brain through the middle of the spine. From the Sahasarara in the

brain, the Amrita Nadi starts and comes down on the front side of the

body slightly to the right and merges in the Spiritual Heart. Sri Ramana

mentioned this process many times. Again, this is a matter of actual

experience of the Yogis and Jnanis.

 

Thus the Self is known in the Heart. Entering the Heart, everything

disappears including the Heart and any such concepts and the Self that

is whole and the nature of pure consciousness is Recognized as one's own

Self.

 

When Paul Brunton asked Sri Ramana when should an aspirant practice

Sahaj Samadhi, Sri Ramana replied something like, "Right from the

beginning!"

 

In the first stages of yoga, consciousness is fixed on one's deity,

chakras, mantra, yantra, sound, light, etc. In doing so, the great power

of consciousness as Shakti awakens and She gives rise to visions and

different spiritual experiences including many many types of Samadhis.

Sometimes the Goddess Herself manifests in breath taking forms and gives

darshan. These are all actual experiences of yogis and devotees even today.

 

Ultimately, Yoga and Jnana path start to merge because the aspirant

becomes fascinated by the nature of consciousness itself which gives

rise to so many forms and visions. When awareness spontaneously starts

to scan itself without effort, then one is firmly on the Jnana path.

Awareness, aware of itself, and abiding in itself is the Sahaj state.

This is why Sri Ramana said to Paul Brunton that what is means of

practice for the Sadhaka is the actual state of the Siddha. A Siddha, a

Jnani, is always fully satisfied and content and delights in

Self-Nature, Self-Awareness because the nature of Self is Sat-Chit-Ananda.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

ymoharir wrote:

 

Namaste Sri Sunder-Ji:

>

> To me "nir-biija" would be an activity was just happened without

> those specific efforts. This state (avasthaa of Yogi's) is often

> called as "unnanii avasthaa", where the person has no sense of the

> environment he is currently living in. Therefore, he has no need to

> practice any saadhanaa, he is already there as he himself has no

> attachment to himself.

>

> Just some thoughts,

>

> Regards,

>

> Dr. Yadu

>

[Guest guest]

Namste , sri Harsha-ji!

 

Thank you for this 'divine' post and stating Sri RAmana's views on

this subject.

 

May i also be permitted to quote here an important passage from Sri

Ramana's teachings ?

 

" Several paths are taught in the Vedas to suit the different grades

of qualified aspirants. Yet, since release is but the destruction of

mind, all efforts have for their aim the control of mind. Although

the modes of meditation may appear to be different from one another,

in the end all of them become one. There is no need to doubt this.

One may adopt that path which suits the maturity of one's mind.

 

The control of prana which is yoga, and the control of mind which is

jnana* -- these are the two principal means for the destruction of

mind. To some, the former may appear easy, and to others the latter.

Yet, *jnana is like subduing a turbulent bull by coaxing it with

green grass, while yoga is like controlling through the use of

force.*

 

Thus the wise ones say: of the three grades of qualified aspirants,

the highest reach the goal by making the mind firm in the Self

through determining the nature of the real by Vedantic enquiry and

by looking upon one's self and all things as of the nature of the

real; the mediocre by making the mind stay in the heart through

kevala-kumbhaka and meditating for a long time on the real, and the

lowest grade, by gaining that state in a gradual manner through

breath-control, etc.

 

The mind should be made to rest in the heart till the destruction of

the 'I'-thought which is of the form of ignorance, residing in the

heart. This itself is jnana; this alone is dhyana also. The rest are

a mere digression of words, digression of the texts. Thus the

scriptures proclaim. Therefore, if one gains the skill of retaining

the mind in one's Self through some means or other, one need not

worry about other matters.

 

The great teachers also have taught that the devotee is greater than

the yogins** and that the means to release is devotion, which is of

the nature of reflection on one's own Self.***

 

Thus, it is the path of realizing Brahman that is variously called

Dahara-vidya, Brahma-vidya, Atma-vidya, etc. What more can be said

than this? One should understand the rest by inference.

 

The Scriptures teach in different modes. After analysing all those

modes the great ones declare this to be the shortest and the best

means.

 

*Seeing everything as Real according to the Scripture: I am Brahman -

- one only without a second.

 

**Of all Yogins, only he who rests his unwavering mind and love in

me is dear to me.--Bhagavad-gita.

 

***Of the means to release only bhakti

(devotion) may be said to be the highest. For, bhakti is constant

reflection on one's own Self. --Vivekachudamani.

 

(http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/self/self_17.htm - 17k)-

 

Harshaji, the best ASana is 'Sukhasana' - THE SEAT OF HAPPINESS !

When the 'Heart' is in the right place , ( SPIRITUAL 'HRIT' -NOT THE

PHYSICAL HEART) there can only be 'sukha' no 'dukha'

 

Sri Ramabnarpanamastu

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, Harsha wrote:

> This is why Sri Ramana said to Paul Brunton that what is means of

> practice for the Sadhaka is the actual state of the Siddha. A

Siddha, a

> Jnani, is always fully satisfied and content and delights in

> Self-Nature, Self-Awareness because the nature of Self is Sat-Chit-

Ananda.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Dhyanasaraswati-ji:

 

Namaste to you and all the devotees of the great Shakti who manifests in

the many forms of the Goddess and who is the beauty and energy of

consciousness. Seeing the blessings of the Guru on the devotee and

acting as the Grace of the Guru, She takes the devotee into the Heart to

give introduction to the Lord. Mystery of mysteries! The Goddess,

dynamic in manifestation and full of form, upon merging the mind in the

Heart, reveals Her Self to be the formless Heart It Self! Thus

perfectly, as only She can do, the complete identity of Atman and

Brahman is established. The ancient, One without a second, reveals It

Self to It Self. Words fail Yogis and Sages and they take refuge in poetry!

 

I so much enjoyed reading your post Sri Dhyanasaraswati-ji because it

was a 'Super Divine' response.

 

Sunder-ji has recently pointed out the following to all of us. It is

essence of the best instruction.

 

ananta-shAstraM bahu veditavyaM

alpashcha kAlo bahavashcha vighnAH |

yatsArabhUtaM tadupAsitavyaM

haMso yathA kShiramivAmbumishra

 

m.h ||

 

The scriptures are endless; what is to be learnt is vast;

The life-span is brief; hindrances are many.

What is essential must be acquired and practised,

Like the swan separating milk mixed with water.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

dhyanasaraswati wrote:

>

> Namste , sri Harsha-ji!

>

> Thank you for this 'divine' post and stating Sri RAmana's views on

> this subject.

>

> May i also be permitted to quote here an important passage from Sri

> Ramana's teachings ?

>

> " Several paths are taught in the Vedas to suit the different grades

> of qualified aspirants. Yet, since release is but the destruction of

> mind, all efforts have for their aim the control of mind. Although

> the modes of meditation may appear to be different from one another,

> in the end all of them become one. There is no need to doubt this.

> One may adopt that path which suits the maturity of one's mind.

>