theist Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 I hear a difference. Is it just me or are two different things being said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackleberry Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 There is no difference. They are both false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted September 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 There is no difference. They are both false. The alternatives I can see to the jiva's being marginal in nature are monism (we all are God) or just plain old material atheism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 There is no difference. They are both false. As it is stated by Srila Prabhupada in his purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.7.9: According to Viṣṇu Purāṇa, Bhagavad-gītā and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the taṭasthā energy of the Lord, and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are not the energetic. The living entities are like the sun's rays. Although, as explained above, there is no qualitative difference between the sun and its rays, the sun's rays are sometimes overpowered by another energy of the sun, namely by clouds or by snowfall. Similarly, although the living entities are qualitatively one with the superior energy of the Lord, they have the tendency to be overpowered by the inferior, material energy. In the Vedic hymns it is said that the living entities are like the sparks of a fire. The sparks of fire also are fire, but the burning potency of the sparks is different from that of the original fire. When the sparks fly out of touch with the original fire, they come under the influence of a nonfiery atmosphere; thus they maintain the potency to be again one with the fire as sparks, but not as the original fire. The sparks can everlastingly remain within the original fire as its parts and parcels, but the moment the sparks become separated from the original fire, their misfortunes and miseries begin. The clear conclusion is that the Supreme Lord, who is the original fire, is never overpowered, but the infinitesimal sparks of the fire can become overpowered by the illusory effect of māyā. It is a most ludicrous argument to say that the Supreme Lord is overpowered by His own material energy. The Lord is the master of the material energy, but the living entities are in the conditioned state, controlled by the material energy. That is the version of Bhagavad-gītā. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 From every reference I saw, the marginal energy was never considered a place or even a temporary condition. It seems it is the jiva, established as independent entities by the creation of free will (marginality). The quotes are all consistent: Madhya 8.151 - kRSNera ananta-zakti, tAte tina----pradhAna ‘cic-chakti', ‘mAyA-zakti', ‘jIva-zakti'-nAma kRSNera--of Lord KRSNa; ananta-zakti--unlimited potencies; tAte--in that; tina--three; pradhAna--chief; cit-zakti--spiritual potency; mAyA-zakti--material potency; jIva-zakti--marginal potency, or living entities; nAma--named. TRANSLATION "KRSNa has unlimited potencies, which can be divided into three main parts. These are the spiritual potency, the material potency and the marginal potency, which is known as the living entities. SB 2.10.3p - The parts and parcels of the internal potency which react in contact with the external potency are called the marginal potency, or the living entities. Adi 2.103 - "The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions. Adi 5.45 - There is one marginal potency, known as the jIva. MahA-saGkarSaNa is the shelter of all jIvas. Madhya 6.163 - "In the Bhagavad-gItA the living entity is established as the marginal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yet you say that the living entity is completely different from the Lord. SB 10.87.20p - According to SrI NArada PaJcarAtra, yat taTa-sthaM tu cid-rUpaM sva-saMvedyAd vinirgatam raJjitaM guNa-rAgeNa sa jIva iti kathyate "The marginal potency, who is spiritual by nature, who emanates from the self-cognizant saMvit energy, and who becomes tainted by his attachment to the modes of material nature, is called the jIva.'' Although the jIva soul is also an expansion of Lord KRSNa, he is distinguished from KRSNa's independent ViSNu expansions by his constitutional position on the margin between spirit and matter. As the MahAvarAha PurANa explains, svAMzaz cAtha vibhinnAMza iti dvidhA za iSyate aMzino yat tu sAmarthyaM yat-svarUpaM yathA sthitiH tad eva nANu-mAtro 'pi bhedaM svAMzAMzinoH kvacit vibhinnAMzo 'lpa-zaktiH syAt kiJcit sAmarthya-mAtra-yuk "The Supreme Lord is known in two ways: in terms of His plenary expansions and His separated expansions. Between the plenary expansions and Their source of expansion there is never any essential difference in terms of either Their capabilities, forms or situations. The separated expansions, on the other hand, possess only minute potency, being endowed only to a small extent with the Lord's powers." The conditioned soul in this world appears as if covered by matter, internally as well as externally. Externally, gross matter surrounds him in the forms of his body and environment, while internally desire and aversion impinge upon his consciousness. But from the transcendental perspective of realized sages, both kinds of material covering are insubstantial. By logically eliminating all material identities, which are misconceptions based on the soul's gross and subtle coverings, a thoughtful person can determine that the soul is nothing material. Rather, he is a pure spark of divine spirit, a servant of the Supreme Godhead. Understanding this, one should worship the Supreme Lord's lotus feet; such worship is the fully bloomed flower of the tree of Vedic rituals. One's realization of the splendor of the Lord's lotus feet, gradually nourished by the offering of Vedic sacrifices, automatically bears the fruits of liberation from material existence and irrevocable faith in the Lord's mercy. One can accomplish all this while still living in the material world. As Lord KRSNa states in the GopAla-tApanI UpaniSad (Uttara 47), mathurA-maNDale yas tu jambUdvIpe sthito 'tha vA yo 'rcayet pratimAM prati sa me priyataro bhuvi "One who worships Me in My Deity form while living in the district of MathurA or, indeed, anywhere in JambUdvIpa, becomes most dear to Me in this world." SrIla SrIdhara SvAmI prays, tvad-aMzasya mamezAna tvan-mAyA-kRta-bandhanam tvad-aGghri-sevAm Adizya parAnanda nivartaya "My Lord, please free me, Your partial expansion, from the bondage created by Your MAyA. Please do this, O abode of supreme bliss, by directing me to the service of Your feet." SB 7.3.34 - Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme, who in his unlimited, unmanifested form has expanded the cosmic manifestation, the form of the totality of the universe. He possesses external and internal energies and the mixed energy called the marginal potency, which consists of all the living entities. PURPORT The Lord is endowed with unlimited potencies (parAsya zaktir vividhaiva zrUyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]), which are summarized as three, namely external, internal and marginal. The external potency manifests this material world, the internal potency manifests the spiritual world, and the marginal potency manifests the living entities, who are mixtures of internal and external. The living entity, being part and parcel of Parabrahman, is actually internal potency, but because of being in contact with the material energy, he is an emanation of material and spiritual energies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is above the material energy and is engaged in spiritual pastimes. The material energy is only an external manifestation of His pastimes. BG 9.13p - Being marginal potency, as soon as the living entity is freed from the control of material nature, he is put under the guidance of the spiritual nature. BG 18.78p - Because the living entities are the marginal energy of KRSNa, they have a tendency to be in contact either with the material energy or with the spiritual energy. In other words, the living entity is situated between the two energies of the Lord, and because he belongs to the superior energy of the Lord, he has a particle of independence. By proper use of that independence he comes under the direct order of KRSNa. Thus he attains his normal condition in the pleasure-giving potency. SB 1.1.31p - One should know, therefore, that the Lord is never on the level of the living beings, who are but expansions of His marginal potency, and one should never equalize the potent and the potency, although there is very little difference of quality between the potent and the potency. SB 1.1.39p - When the Lord descends, He does so along with His entourage to display a complete picture of the transcendental world, where pure love and devotion for the Lord prevail without any mundane tinge of lording it over the creation of the Lord. Such devotees of the Lord are all liberated souls, perfect representations of the marginal or internal potency in complete negation of the influence of the external potency. SB 1.13.48p - The Supreme Lord Personality of Godhead is one without a second, but He manifests Himself by different energies because He is by nature blissful. The living beings are also manifestations of His marginal energy, qualitatively one with the Lord, and there are innumerable living beings both within and without the external and internal energies of the Lord. Since the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal energy, the living beings within that internal potency are qualitatively one with the Lord without contamination from the external potency. Although qualitatively one with the Lord, the living being, due to contamination of the material world, is pervertedly manifested, and therefore he experiences so-called happiness and distress in the material world. SB 1.14.32p - The PANDavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord KRSNa to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gItA (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being taTasthA zakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the viSNu-tattva and jIva-tattva. The jIva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature. SB 2.2.14p - The spiritual world is the manifestation of His internal potency, and the material world is the manifestation of His external potency. The living entities are also His marginal potency, and by their own choice they can live in either the transcendental or material worlds. The material world is not a fit place for living entities because they are spiritually one with the Lord and in the material world the living entities become conditioned by the laws of the material world. SB 2.4.7p - So all living entities, both in the conditioned state and in the liberated state, are maintained by the Almighty Supreme Lord. Such maintenance is effected by the Lord through His different expansions of Self and three principal energies, namely the internal, external and marginal energies. The living entities are His marginal energies, and some of them, in the confidence of the Lord, are entrusted with the work of creation also, as are BrahmA, MarIci, etc., and the acts of creation are inspired by the Lord unto them (tene brahma hRdA). The external energy (mAyA) is also impregnated with the jIvas, or conditioned souls. The unconditioned marginal potency acts in the spiritual kingdom, and the Lord, by His different plenary expansions, maintains them in different transcendental relations displayed in the spiritual sky. So the one Supreme Personality of Godhead manifests Himself in many (bahu syAm), and thus all diversities are in Him, and He is in all diversities, although He is nevertheless different from all of them. That is the inconceivable mystic power of the Lord, and as such everything is simultaneously one with and different from Him by His inconceivable potencies (acintya-bhedAbheda-tattva). SB 2.5.14p - The living entity is known as the marginal potency of the Lord. But in all circumstances, neither the material ingredients nor the spiritual parts and parcels are independent of the Personality of Godhead VAsudeva, for all things, whether products of the external, internal or marginal potencies of the Lord, are simply displays of the same effulgence of the Lord, just as light, heat and smoke are displays of fire. None of them are separate from the fire--all of them combine together to be called fire; similarly, all phenomenal manifestations, as well as the effulgence of the body of VAsudeva, are His impersonal features, whereas He eternally exists in His transcendental form called sac-cid-Ananda-vigrahaH [bs. 5.1], distinct from all conceptions of the material ingredients mentioned above. SB 2.5.19 - These three modes of material nature, being further manifested as matter, knowledge and activities, put the eternally transcendental living entity under conditions of cause and effect and make him responsible for such activities. PURPORT Because they are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant. Such is the wonderful action of mAyA, or external energy manifested as if materially produced. By the covering power of the material energy, the material scientist cannot look beyond the material causes, but factually, behind the material manifestations, there are adhibhUta, adhyAtma and adhidaiva actions, which the conditioned soul in the mode of ignorance cannot see. The adhibhUta manifestation entails repetitions of births and deaths with old age and diseases, the adhyAtma manifestation conditions the spirit soul, and the adhidaiva manifestation is the controlling system. These are the material manifestations of cause and effect and the sense of responsibility of the conditioned actors. They are, after all, manifestations of the conditioned state, and the human being's freedom from such a conditioned state is the highest perfectional attainment. SB 2.5.25 - From the darkness of false ego, the first of the five elements, namely the sky, is generated. Its subtle form is the quality of sound, exactly as the seer is in relationship with the seen. PURPORT The five elements, namely sky, air, fire, water and earth, are all but different qualities of the darkness of false ego. This means that the false ego in the sum total form of mahat-tattva is generated from the marginal potency of the Lord, and due to this false ego of lording it over the material creation, ingredients are generated for the false enjoyment of the living being. The living being is practically the dominating factor over the material elements as the enjoyer, though the background is the Supreme Lord. Factually, save and except the Lord, no one can be called the enjoyer, but the living entity falsely desires to become the enjoyer. This is the origin of false ego. When the bewildered living being desires this, the shadow elements are generated by the will of the Lord, and the living entities are allowed to run after them as after a phantasmagoria. SB 3.27.17 - SrI DevahUti inquired: My dear brAhmaNa, does material nature ever give release to the spirit soul? Since one is attracted to the other eternally, how is their separation possible? PURPORT DevahUti, the mother of Kapiladeva, here makes her first inquiry. Although one may understand that spirit soul and matter are different, their actual separation is not possible, either by philosophical speculation or by proper understanding. The spirit soul is the marginal potency of the Supreme Lord, and matter is the external potency of the Lord. The two eternal potencies have somehow or other been combined, and since it is so difficult to separate one from the other, how is it possible for the individual soul to become liberated? By practical experience one can see that when the soul is separated from the body, the body has no real existence, and when the body is separated from the soul one cannot perceive the existence of the soul. As long as the soul and the body are combined, we can understand that there is life. But when they are separated, there is no manifested existence of the body or the soul. This question asked by DevahUti of Kapiladeva is more or less impelled by the philosophy of voidism. The voidists say that consciousness is a product of a combination of matter and that as soon as the consciousness is gone, the material combination dissolves, and therefore there is ultimately nothing but voidness. This absence of consciousness is called nirvANa in MAyAvAda philosophy. SB 4.28.53p - "O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate." This is an explanation of how the living entity falls down into this material world. In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate. The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the VarAha PurANa, He expands Himself in viSNu-tattva (the svAMza expansion) and in His marginal potency (the vibhinnAMza, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnAMza expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. SB 4.31.13p - The living entity is the marginal potency of the Supreme Lord, although there is factually no difference between the energy and the energetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru_Das Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 Are jiva's the marginal potency or 'from' the marginal potency? I hear a difference. Is it just me or are two different things being said? It appears that both things are being said. Best thing is to heed this advice of Babaji Maharaja: I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas will begin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. The Vedas say in Taittiriya Upanisad (2.9) yato vaco nivartante aprapya manasa saha The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable to attain Him. I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa). Jaiva Dharma Ch. 15 Here are some other references as well. Acording to our acaryas the conditioned jivas are "called the", "belong to" and are simultaneously "the creations of" and are "manifested from" the marginal potency. TEXTS 108-109 jivera 'svarupa' haya----krsnera 'nitya-dasa' krsnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya SYNONYMS jivera--of the living entity; sva-rupa--the constitutional position; haya--is; krsnera--of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa--eternal servant; krsnera--of Lord Krsna; tatastha--marginal; sakti--potency; bheda-abheda--one and different; prakasa--manifestation; surya-amsa--part and parcel of the sun; kirana--a ray of sunshine; yaiche--as; agni-jvala-ca ya--molecular particle of fire; svabhavika--naturally; krsnera--of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara--three varieties; sakti--energies; haya--there are. TRANSLATION "It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy. PURPORT Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura paraphrases these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternal part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna's marginal potency. There are two worlds--the spiritual world and the material world--and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and spiritual worlds; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire." Another explanation of these verses can be found in Adi-lila (Chapter Two, verse 96). Cc. Madhya 20,108-109 http://bvml.org/books/CC/madhya/20.html The creations of the marginal potency technically called the "Tatastha" Potency—are the numberless individual living souls trying to lord it over the Material Potency (Maya). The difference between the "Chit" Potency and the "Tatastha" potency is one of quantity only but almost not of quality as opposed to the difference with the "Maya" potency both in quality and in quantity. In other words quantitatively there is much difference between the "Chit" and the "Tatastha" potencies but qualitatively there is almost no difference.(3) Therefore "Tatastha" potency is in all respects superior to the "Maya" potency in relation with the "Chit" Potency. We can see therefore a perpetual endeavour on the part of the living souls to lord it over the material nature or "Maya".(4) Theosophy Ends in Vaishnavism [1944 Back to Godhead #1]Edited and Founded Under Direct Order of His Divine Grace Sri Srimad Bhakti-Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada by Goswami Abhay Charan Bhaktivedanta http://bvml.org/ACBSP/BTG/1944-1.html Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha? Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the tata (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and the material universe created by maya on the other. Just as Bhagavan’s spiritual sakti on one side is unlimited, maya-sakti on the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature because they have manifested from Krsna’s tatasthasakti (marginal potency). Vrajanatha: What is the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)? Babaji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between both worlds, and to see both sides. Tatastha-svabhava is the eligibility to come under the control of either of the saktis. Sometimes the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its course. If the jiva looks in the direction of Krsna – that is, towards the spiritual world – he is influenced by Krsna sakti. He then enters the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavan in his pure, conscious, spiritual form. However, if he looks towards maya, he becomes opposed to Krsna and is incarcerated by maya. This dual-faceted nature is called the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature). Vrajanatha: Is there any material component in the jiva’s original constitution? Babaji: No, the jiva is created solely from the cit-sakti. He can be defeated – that is, covered by maya – because he is minute by nature and lacks spiritual power, but there is not even a scent of maya in the jiva’s existence. Vrajanatha: I have heard from my teacher that when a fraction of the conscious brahma is covered by maya, it becomes the jiva. He explained the sky to be always the indivisible maha-akasa, but when a part of it is enclosed in a pot, it becomes ghata-akasa. Similarly, the jiva is originally brahma, but when that brahma is covered by maya, the false ego of being a jiva develops. Is this conception correct? Babaji: This doctrine is only Mayavada. How can maya touch brahma? The Mayavadis propose that brahma has no sakti (luptasakti), so how can maya – which is a sakti – possibly approach brahma, if sakti is supposed to be non-existent? The conclusion is that maya cannot possibly cover brahma and cause such a miserable condition. Conversely, if we accept the transcendental sakti (parasakti) of brahma, how can maya, which is an insignificant sakti, defeat the cit-sakti and create the jiva from brahma? Besides, brahma is indivisible, so how can such a brahma be divided? The idea that maya can act upon brahma is not acceptable. Maya plays no role in the creation of the jivas. Admittedly, the jiva is only atomic, but even so, it is still superior as a tattva to maya. Vrajanatha: Once another teacher said that the jiva is nothing but a reflection of brahma. The sun is reflected in water, and similarly, brahma becomes jiva when it is reflected in maya. Is this conception correct? Babaji: Again this is simply another example of Mayavada philosophy. Brahma has no limits, and a limitless entity can never be reflected. The idea of limiting brahma is opposed to the conclusions of the Vedas, so this theory of reflection is to be rejected. Vrajanatha: A dig-vijaya sannyasi once told me that in reality there is no substance known as jiva. One only thinks of himself as a jiva because of illusion, and when the illusion is removed, there is only one indivisible brahma. Is this correct or not? Babaji: This is also Mayavada doctrine which has no foundation at all. According to sastra, ekam evadvitiyam: “There is nothing apart from brahma.” If there is nothing except brahma, where has the illusion come from, and who is supposed to be in illusion? If you say that brahma is in illusion, you are saying that brahma is not actually brahma; rather, it is insignificant. And if you propose that illusion is a separate and independent element, you negate the undivided oneness (advaya-jnana) of brahma. Vrajanatha: Once an influential brahmana pandita arrived in Navadvipa, and in a conference of intellectuals, he established that only the jiva exists. His theory was that this jiva creates everything in his dreams, and it is because of this that he enjoys happiness and suffers distress. Then, when the dream breaks, he sees that he is nothing but brahma. To what extent is this idea correct? Babaji: This is, again, Mayavada. If, as they say, brahma is undifferentiated, how can it possibly produce the jiva and his dreaming state? Mayavadis use examples, such as, ‘the illusion of seeing mother-of-pearl in an oyster shell as gold’ and ‘the illusion of taking a rope to be a snake,’ but their philosophy cannot provide a consistent basis for advaya-jnana. Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)? Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti. Sri Krsna, being established in each of His saktis, manifests His svarupa according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the cit-svarupa, He manifests His svarupa as Sri Krsna and also as Narayana, the Lord of Paravyoma; when He is situated in the jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva; and being established in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Visnu forms: Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupa as sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas. Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal? Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present. Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization. All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters. I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas will begin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. The Vedas say in Taittiriya Upanisad (2.9) yato vaco nivartante aprapya manasa saha The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable to attain Him. I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa). Jaiva Dharma, Ch. 15 http://bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/15.html http://bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/15.html<o:p"] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted September 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 Thanks gHari. That extensive list of consistent quotes should settle the matter in people's minds. We have orignated from Krsna AS His marginal potency and not FROM the marginal potency as a jiva, something a little different from the marginal potency itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted September 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 "It appears that both things are being said." "Here are some other references as well. Acording to our acaryas the conditioned jivas are "called the", "belong to" and are simultaneously "the creations of" and are "manifested from" the marginal potency." Yes it appears that way Puru but I think the distinction is in the way we hear it and not that two different things are being said. Possibly also the in the way the translators into English heard it as well. "Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna's marginal potency. There are two worlds--the spiritual world and the material world--and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and spiritual worlds; therefore you are called the marginal potency. " Where it is said:"You belong to Krsna's marginal potency." I hear that speaking to the marginal potency as a whole as distinct from disscussing marginal potency in terms of one single jiva. "Belonging to" the amalgamated whole of the jivas as a category called the marginal potency. We are of that group in that we have the all the same characteristics as the others that make up that marginal category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru_Das Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 However you wish to understand this point is fine with me theist. Personally. I don't believe that English syntax can sufficiently explain it. Such language is limited by relative parameters and can only indicate some conception regarding jiva tattva. As was explained by Babaji Maharaja in Jaiva Dharma: ". . . Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jivaand spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 I am not sure you understand my point Puru. I do understand that conditioned language is inadequate. But it is clearly stated that we are the marginal potency. For the marginal potency to be truly marginal requires the free will to choose between the spiritual world and the material world. Free will means a living being. This means we jivas. I don't see a mystery here. It is not that there is some other energy, an impersonal force that is our cause, Krsna is our Cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru_Das Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 I understand your point. I am happy the matter is resolved for you. If two things are not being said ,and it only appears that way, then your question is answered. Here is an additional reference article: http://bvml.org/SBNM/lectures/20020216_tfptjdnffg.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 I understand your point. I am happy the matter is resolved for you. If two things are not being said ,and it only appears that way, then your question is answered. Here is an additional reference article: http://bvml.org/SBNM/lectures/20020216_tfptjdnffg.html Thanks Puru. The reason I brought up this topic is I have met several bhaktas in the last few years who have developed the idea that there is some seemingly impersonal energy of Krsna that is called the marginal energy and which generates the jivas. I thought it should be discussed. Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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