Sumary of views on samadhi.... a request.. (corrected)

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request to mederator: Please delete #33303. This message replaces my

earlier one

 

Namaste All,

 

This message contains replies to the recent post by Prof-VKji on

comments from Swami Paramarthananda's commentary (#33285) and

responses from Kathrasan-ji (on Adhyatma Yoga) and Shyam-ji (on

trance)

 

1. The very definition of Adhyatma Yoga in the Upanishads

points to a `transient state' - According to Sankara there is only

Pure awareness and NO thinking in that state

2. Sankara's bhasyas on the Upanishads clearly refute the

notion that the highest state of yoga is deep sleep (sushupti)

3. According to Sankara, Bhagavan's words in the sixth chapter

of the Gita point to the self cognizing the self with absolutely NO

thinking (therefore NO understanding???)

4. Some Sruti mantras are presented as Sadhanas for Dhyana/Yoga. Not

sure whether it is possible to do 'vichara' on these

5. As Peter-ji and Raghava Kaluri-ji pointed out and as Shyam-

ji indicated in his summary there are two divergent views. These can

be easily reconciled if we understand the yoga vasistha quote: Yoga

and Vichara are two `path's. Some may find Yoga suitable, others

Vichara

6. Trying to focus on personalities instead of issues will lead

to unfortunate discussions on whether the views of revered Swami

Paramarthananda-ji are any more valid than those of Great

Jivanmuktas (and great Vedantic scholars) of the Advaita tradition

such as Swami Vidyaranya

 

I presented this summary above so members can choose to discard or

read further :-) as the rest of this message is only a elaboration

 

1. Definition of Adhyatma Yoga in the Upanishads

==================================================

Kathirasan-ji mentioned Adhyatma yoga in his message:

>>

Is this is a physical merging? No. It is to be understood and this is

the understanding Swami Paramarthanandaji is refrring to. This is

also called as Adhyatma Yoga in the earlier verse in the same

upanishad

>>

 

The Katha Upanishad booms forth "taaM yogamiti manyante" the Supreme

state of Yoga is defined as (the sruit can't be more explict than

this):

 

When the five instruments of knowledge stand still, together with

the mind and when the intellect does not move, that is called the

Supreme State.

 

Sankara explains that the the five senses are withdrawn from their

respective objects and remain still,

And here are the key points from Sankara's commentary:

//

Together with the antahkarana that has been turned away from

thinking and the Buddhi whose characteristic is determination does

not engage in its function.

//

 

Please tell me what understanding occurs in a mind and intellect

that are non-functioning and STILL!

 

Shyam-ji

> First the word intellect - this itself shows that the

> knowledge, like any knowledge, has to occur at the

> level of the intellect. For the intellect to be

> functional it needs to be available for transaction -

> so any idea that this knowledge will "become

> available" as an "experience" in a trance like state

> of NS is false understanding.

 

Commenting on the `'yadaa paJNchaavatishhThante GYaanaani manasaa

saha'' describing the supreme state of the Yogis, Shankara says

//

He (the practicing Yogi) indeed in this (Avastha) state is

established in his own true nature (Atma)

(Avidyaropavarjita) bereft of the superimposition of Avidya

//

 

So the supreme state of the Adhyatma Yoga (whose sole purpose is to

remove avidya and thereby result ultimately in `realization' of the

self) is a transient state where the mind, intellect DO NOT function

and are completely STILL, where the Atman shines forth WITHOUT ANY

SUPERIMPOSITION OF AVIDYA.

 

If there is a doubt as to whether this could be the state of the

Jnani and not a transient state, the Upanishad immediately clarifies

in the same verse: Yoga is subject to growth and decay. So this can

be only a `transient' state. Also it is very clear from Sankara's

commentary "Avidyaropavarjita" (bereft of avidya) that this is NO

deep sleep.

 

3. Highest Instruction about Yoga

=================================

 

'atma samstham manah krtva na kincidapi cintayet' (.25)

Making the mind fixed in the Self, one should not think of ANYTHING

WHATSOEVER.

 

Commenting on this verse, Sankara calls this the highest instruction

about Yoga. Note that the Gitacharya himself does not mention this

as the highest instruction. And a little later, Sankara says "the

fruit of Yoga (Samadhi) is the identity with Brahman which is the

cause of uprooting of Samsara in its entirety"

 

Kathrasan-ji says "This negation (apavada) takes place in the mind

alone and therefore it has to be understood" and Shyam-ji

says "knowledge, has to occur at the level of the intellect".

 

Please tell me what `understanding' takes place in a state WHERE

THERE IS NO THINKING WHATSOEVER. If you say that this state is not a

big deal for a vedantic seeker, Sankara of his own accord, draws our

attention to the importance of this state by saying this is the

Highest Instruction about Yoga!.

 

4. Not all Sruti mantras are for 'vichara'. Some could be meant as

Dhyana Sadhana

=================================================================

 

This brings us to another point I noticed in messages from Kathirasn-

ji and Shyam-ji. I may be mistaken here but my understanding is that

mantras like '"But by the seers of subtle things, He is seen through

a pointed and fine intellect."' and ('yacched van manasi..') "The

discriminating man should merge the organ of speech into the mind.."

seem to be dhyana sadhanas rather than for vichara.

 

For example, in the Brahma Sutra bhasya Sankara says about

the 'yacched van manasi' mantra "Tat yogamartham yogam darshayati"

the sruti "shows THAT YOGA for attaining Him". Isn't this mantra

meant to be a Sadhana rather than for 'understanding'?

 

In Jivanmukti Viveka for example, Sri Vidyaranya discussed this

mantra in length in the context of Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

 

I am not a scholar on Prasthana Traya or on Vichara - can members

please provide their expert opinion on this?

 

5, 6.

=====

I deeply respect revered Swami Paramarthananda-ji and have used His

talks in a Satsang here in Sacramento that has been going on for

over 5 years. Also I have introduced Swamiji's cassettes and CDs to

a whole bunch of folks here who had no exposure and are now avid

followers. I have pointed out members of `Advaitin' to talks

posted on Yogamalika web site. However I have found Swami

Paramarthananda-ji's views on Dhyana, Samadhi to be divergent from

those of other Acharyas in the Advaitic tradition. Please do not

interpret this in a negative way. Some Acharyas emphasise vichara,

others dhyana.

 

During a visit few years back and in a private meeting with the

Swamiji, I did bring up my concerns. He acknowledged the divergent

views and the Swamiji humorously mentioned that we could argue for

ever and not come to an agreement.

 

Again we are drawn back to the famous lines from Yoga Vaishtha:

Yoga and Vichara are two `path's. Some may find Yoga suitable,

others Vichara

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

It is really funny to see that this thread which is basically asked for a

summary, stretching to another thread of debates on the same topic :-))

 

SR prabhuji:

 

1. The very definition of Adhyatma Yoga in the Upanishads points to a

`transient state' - According to Sankara there is only Pure awareness and

NO thinking in that state.

 

bhaskar :

 

it is not a NO thinking, no activity inert state like samAdhi...kindly see

shankara bhAshya on bruhadAraNyaka where shankara explicitly mentions *Atma

jnAna* is NOT a transaction annihilated state...it is transaction sublated

state...

 

SR prabhuji :

 

2. Sankara's bhasyas on the Upanishads clearly refute the notion that the

highest state of yoga is deep sleep (sushupti)

 

bhaskar :

 

But shankara himself says that the understanding of the *experience* of

sushupti (deep sleep state) is more than enough to understand the true

nature of ours...

 

SR prabhuji:

 

3. According to Sankara, Bhagavan's words in the sixth chapter of the Gita

point to the self cognizing the self with absolutely NO thinking (therefore

NO understanding???)

 

bhaskar :

 

in that case bhagavan's words, sarvatra samadarshinaH, arjuna's queries

stita prajnasya kA bhAsha etc. etc. meaningless & extra verses in

gIta...Please note by declaring no thinking is required, no understanding

of the purports of the scripture is required ONLY sitting in a trance state

called NS is enough...you are going against primary intention of path of

knowledge...tadviddhi praNipAtEna, pariprashnEna sEvaya...has no meaning in

your case...according to you "go and sit in NS from AM to PM...you will get

all the answers" :-))

 

SR prabhuji :

 

4. Some Sruti mantras are presented as Sadhanas for Dhyana/Yoga. Not sure

whether it is possible to do 'vichara' on these

 

bhaskar :

 

There is a provision for upAsana mArga for maNda & madhyAma

adhikAri-s...Hence shruti itself personifies nirguNa parabrahman &

introduces apara, saguNa brahman...& also note through archirAdi mArga he

even gets krama mukti...but that is totally irrelevant to the context of

this present discussion.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

5. As Peter-ji and Raghava Kaluri-ji pointed out and as Shyam-ji indicated

in his summary there are two divergent views. These can be easily

reconciled if we understand the yoga vasistha quote: Yoga

and Vichara are two `path's. Some may find Yoga suitable, others Vichara

 

bhaskar :

 

if somebody wants to persue the path of dualistic yOga, if somebody wants

to do karma & say that they are persuing the path of karma saying it is

karma yOga, if somebody says we are the followers of both karma & jnAna

paths since in gIta both are insisted ...let them all happily enjoy their

paths & progress in their respective paths ...we, the vaidika dharma &

shankara saMpradAya followers donot have any objection to it...problem

comes only if they say it_is_shankara vEdAnta.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

6. Trying to focus on personalities instead of issues will lead to

unfortunate discussions on whether the views of revered Swami

Paramarthananda-ji are any more valid than those of Great Jivanmuktas (and

great Vedantic scholars) of the Advaita tradition such as Swami Vidyaranya

 

bhaskar :

 

I think the same rule is applicable when the question comes whether the

views of sub-commentators are any more valid than that of our shankara

bhagavadpAda himself?? it appears in this list, the answer is

yes...without giving an iota of importance to bhAshyakAra bhagavadpAda's

stand on yOga...we are profusely quoting works of bhAmati & vivaraNa like

ratnaprabha, vEdAnta sAra etc.etc. to arrange a place for patanjali's

dualistic theory of yOga in the vaidika tradition.

 

Since I donot want to go all over again on your further observation on

adhyAtma yOga...I shall stop here.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar