A Peep into the Patanjali System

September 24, 2006

Namaste all,

The only Nityasiddha Vastu, rather Nityaprasiddha Vastu for us all, nay for all conscious being is the self or atma. It is swatasiddha or self effulgent and not a sadhya vastu. No effort, tantra, neither Purusha or Vastu is required for knowing this. Nobody can deny this. If anyone denies this it will amount denying himself. And, Consciousness is never absent in all conscious beings.

The purport of Vedanta is to unfold Jeeva Brahma Aikyam, i.e. Jeeva Brahma Eva Na Apara.

The word Brahman is introduced by the Vedanta to establish the unity of self, or atma and consciousness. The Mahavakya says “Prgnananm Brahma” i..e. consciousness is Brahman. This Unity of Jeeva or atma or self and Brahman is a piece of knowledge, not available through any means available to us.. The only Pramana or means of this knowledge is, Sabda, Vedanta or the Upanishads.

Again, Knowledge is Vastu Tantra, as no effort is required for knowledge to take place. All what is required is the presence of Triputi, i.e. the object, the subject, or the knower, and the means of knowledge, premeya, pramatu, and pramana. When triputi is present, the knowledge takes place of the object. There is no choice possible here.

I do not have any exposure to Patanajali’s Yoga Shastra. If Samadhi requires some effort, i.e. for going into Samadhi, it amounts to Purusha Tantra, and knowledge does not require any Purusha Tantra, as Jeeva Brahma Aikaya is a piece of knowledge.

Meditation or manana is required to assimilate the knowledge unfolded by the Vedanta.

Learned members may correct my above view or “understanding”.

Warm regards,

Mani

R. S. Mani

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September 24, 2006

subbuji observes :

( Maharshi Patanjali declares in the beginning that the ultimate

object of his system of Yoga that essentially centres round 'chitta-

vritti- nirodhaH' (effecting the cessation of thought currents), is

the establishment of the aspirant in his true Self, 'tadA draShTuH

svarUpe avasthAnam'. )

Subbuji , here is what Sri Ramana maharishi Bhagwan views the

concept of 'chitta vritti nirodha'

pleawse read on

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Atman (Self) is realised with mrita

manas (dead mind), that is, mind devoid of thoughts and turned

inward. Then the mind sees its own source and becomes that (the

Self). It is not as the subject perceiving an object.

When the room is dark, a lamp is necessary to illumine, and

eyes are necessary to recognise objects. But when the sun has risen

there is no need of a lamp to see objects. To see the sun no lamp is

necessary, it is enough that you turn your eyes towards the self-

luminous sun.

Similarly with the mind. To see objects the reflected light of the

mind is necessary. To see the Heart it is enough that the mind is

turned towards it. Then mind loses itself and Heart shines forth.

The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness.

When the ego, however, dominates it, it functions as the

reasoning, thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind, being not

limited by the ego, has nothing separate from itself and is

therefore only aware.

Again people often ask how the mind is controlled. I say to

them, 'Show me the mind and then you will know what to do'. The fact

is that the mind is only a bundle of thoughts. How can you

extinguish it by the thought of doing so or by a desire? Your

thoughts and desires are part and parcel of the mind. The mind is

simply fattened by new thoughts rising up. Therefore it is foolish

to attempt to kill the mind by means of the mind. The only way of

doing it to find its source and hold on to it. The mind will then

fade away of its own accord.

Yoga teaches *CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA *(control of the activities of

the mind). But I say ATMA VICHARA (self-investigation). This is the

practical way. Chitta Vritti Nirodha is brought about in sleep,

swoon, or by starvation. As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is

a recrudescence of thoughts. Of what use is it then? In the state of

stupor there is peace and no misery.But misery recurs when the

stupor is removed. So Nirodha (control) is useless and cannot be of

lasting benefit.

How then can the benefit be made lasting? It is by finding the

cause of misery. Misery is due to the perception of objects. If

they are not there, there will be no contingent thoughts and so

misery is wiped off.

'How will objects cease to be'? is the next question. The sruti

(scriptures) and the sages say that the objects are only mental

creations. They have no substantive being. Investigate the matter

and ascertain the truth of the statement. The result will be the

conclusion that the objective world is in the subjective

consciousness.The Self is thus the only reality which permeates and

also envelopes the world. Since there is no duality, no thoughts

will arise to disturb your peace. This is realisation of the Self.

The Self is eternal and so also is realisation.

Abhyasa (spiritual practice) consists in withdrawal within the

Self every time you are disturbed by thought. It is not

concentration or destruction of the mind but withdrawal into the

Self."

Question: "Why is concentration ineffective?"

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "To ask the mind to kill the mind is like

making the thief the policeman. He will go with you and pretend to

catch the thief, but nothing will be gained. So you must turn inward

and see from where the mind rises and then it will cease to exist."

Question: "In turning the mind inwards, are we not still

employing the mind?'

Sri Ramana Maharshi:"Of course we are employing the mind. It is well

known and admitted that only with the help of the mind can the mind

be killed. But instead setting about saying there is a mind, and I

want to kill it, you begin to seek the source of the mind, and you

find the mind does not exist at all. The mind, turned outwards,

results in thoughts and objects. Turned inwards, it becomes itself

the Self."

http://www.hinduism.co.za/newpage6.htm

Our beloved Harshaji may expand these ideas and come up with

something really beautiful!

Anyway - let us not the limit the use of the word 'Tantra' -Tantra

also means the scripture by which the light of knowledge is

spread: "Tanyate vistaryate jnanam anemna iti tantram." In this

sense , Advaita is also a Tantra! So let this thread be woven into a

web of pure consciousness ! smile .

i do miss our Sankaraman-ji - he used to be such an enthusiastic

participant!

sALUTATIONS TO ATMA GURU sri Ramana bhagwan

September 25, 2006

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

<subrahmanian_v wrote:

>

The others who silently watched like

> Sri Sada ji, Sri Sundar Hattangadi ji, Sri Ramesh Murthy ji are

also

> welcome to come out with their opinions. Everyone may consult the

> appropriate books so as to make the discussion as authentic as

> possible. I wish we had Sri Ganeshan Sankararaman with us; he

seems

> to have a fairly thorough knowledge of the Patanjali system.

Where

> are Michael ji and Felipe? Shri Peter too may speak out.

Namaste,

There is little to add to what a Master has said:

http://www.dlshq.org/download/blessed.htm

PATH TO BLESSEDNESS

Quintessence of the Ashtanga Yoga Of Sage, Maharshi Patanjali.

By

SRI SWAMI CHIDANANDA

A DIVINE LIFE SOCIETY PUBLICATION

Regards,

Sunder

September 25, 2006

"dhyanasaraswati" dhyanasaraswati writes

<<<The only way of doing it to find its source and hold on to it. The mind will then fade away of its own accord.>>>

Pardon me, but this “holding on” is also a thought. <<Mind fades away only in deep sleep.>> One need not or cannot remain in deep sleep all the time in order to escape from the hold of the mind. The mind is a tool given to us to serve a purpose and wise living is all about how well one is able to use the mind to live a life of “shreyas”.

Mind is also Mithya and equally the one who is trying to “kill” it. One cannot or need not kill any Mithya vastu. Only recognize that it is Mithya and rest in peace.

<<<Misery is due to the perception of objects. If they are not there, there will be no contingent thoughts and so misery is wiped off.>>

Objects are there and one cannot expect them “not to be there”. The whole problem is how one looks at these objects subjectively and internalize them and then interact with them. The objects are not my creation, including the mind. They are all given and may I repeat one cannot expect them “not to be there”. Moreover, being Eswara's creation, which is perfect, they all serve a purpose.

Swami Dayananda Saraswati mentioned recently:

“When one is more subjective, life becomes miserable, even when one manages one’s subjectivity to an extent, still one has to deal with the reality. You cannot live with a reality that produces fear, anxiety, jealousy and a sense of loneliness that makes you feel small, insignificant and not required and the world tells you all the time you are a dispensable person. How can one live a sane life? Vedanta is the Saving grace. Human beings need Vedanta and it is not a luxury; it is the oxygen for a sane life.”

Warm Regards

Mani

R. S. Mani

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September 25, 2006

Namaste SubbuJi,

This is a very well-timed post of yours.

But unfortunately I would not be able to participate in this discussion,

as I am really tied to something else.

I wish I could participate.

I am not an expert in PYS, my knowledge is even more crude than yours.

But, neverthless, I would like to add some brief comments.

Disclaimer - All the views are my personal, if anyone thinks they are irrelevant, please ignore them.

________

Now, with this background, let us examine the main point of this

discussion. Sri Bhaskar ji, in his recent posts, averred that

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is essentially that of Patanjali shastra (dvaita

shastra) and that NS is a kartru-tantra meditation (see Type B above)

and as such is not a valid means to realize the Vedantic Brahman.

The question that I have is this: Is the Self that Maharshi

Patanjali talks about in the sutra `tadA draShTuH svarUpe

avasthAnam'( the realization of and establishment in, is the ultimate

goal of his Yoga system,) an `effect' to be created by an effort

called some samadhi?

>> I dont think so. It starts from Savikalpa samadhi and culminates in NS/AS.

>> Savikalpa is made up of different types of samadhis(ascending in sense of

>> subtlenss), like savitarka, nirvitarka, savichar, Anand/Asmita.

>> All the Savikalpas are to be created by effort, by practice.

>> when someone transcends the above savikalpas, the Ns/As comes by itslef (by

>> His grace)

>> In vedanta terminology we can say savikalpas are purusha/kartru tantra, but

>> NS/As is vastu tantra.

To put the question in simple terms: Is the Atma

of Patanjali a `product' of some samadhi? Or is it an existing

Atma that is to be realized, even in the system of Patanjali? (Note:

All this is not to obliterate the essential differences that exist

between the siddhAnta of Patanjali and the Aupanishada siddhAnta.)

>> PYS is same as vedanta. Atma of patanjali is NOt a 'product' of some samadhi.

>> Atma alrady there. The question is how to realize it.

>> Whether it is manana-shravana-nidhidhyasana, or asana-pranayam-savikalpa

>> samadhis,

>> ultimately the person has to reach a unmani state 'tadA draShTuH svarUpe

>> avasthAnam', which is called by different names like NS, AS, Aparokshanubhuti

Now, to conclude, despite my unfamiliarity with the system of

Patanjali, based on the above lines of thinking, I think I would not

be wrong in making this statement, although in the interrogative:

It is learnt that the Patanjali system has a number of meditations

(samadhis). Are ALL the samadhis spoken of in that system

essentially only kartru-tantra (type B) samadhis? Is the pre-eminent

aspirant, uttama adhikAri, of that system engaged in `creating' an

Atman?

>> I dont think so. Only savikalpa samadhis are purusha/kartru tantra. NS/AS is

>> not.

>> I would like to touch upon another commonly held myth of PYS, that is PYS

>> talks about infinite purushas (in count) and one prakruti.

>> Ii is not so, I think. Purusha is ONLY ONE and Prakruti is only ONE.

>> The difference between Vedanta and PYS is that PYS says Purusha and

>> Prakruti are independent

>> while Vedanta says Brahman and Maya are NOT independent, Maya is part of

>> Brahman.

>> I think, this difference is not worth to be discussed as it is just a play of words.

>> In the ultimate sate of non-dual unity there is no Prakruti nor Maya.

>> What remains is just ONE Purusha or Brahman.

>> Reality is one, the learn call it by different names depending on thier personal

>> tastes

>> Most of the spiritual paths that developed in this Bharat Khanda lead to the

>> same goal -

>> Purusha <-> Prakruti

>> Brahman <-> Maya

>> Shiv <-> Shakti

>> Nirguna <-> Saguna

Pranams and warm regards to all sadhakas,

Subbu

Om Tat Sat

>> Om tat sat

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September 25, 2006

Mani-ji!

Shubh Navaratri greetings .

As always , you make some excellent observations.

however , may i say

"For one who knows that all is Brahman there is nothing to meditate

upon and no one who meditates" ( MAHANIRVANA TANTRA.)

so , why are we even discussing about Dhyana and Atma Vichara ? AS

long as there is the 'intellect of the ego , we will indulge in

these type of discussions.

Shreyas and Preyas - don't we all crave for that ? smile!

regards

-- In advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani wrote:

>

> "dhyanasaraswati" dhyanasaraswati writes

>

> <<<The only way of doing it to find its source and hold on to

it. The mind will then fade away of its own accord.>>>

> Pardon me, but this "holding on" is also a thought. <<Mind fades

away only in deep sleep.>> One need not or cannot remain in deep

sleep all the time in order to escape from the hold of the mind. The

mind is a tool given to us to serve a purpose and wise living is all

about how well one is able to use the mind to live a life

of "shreyas".

> Mind is also Mithya and equally the one who is trying to "kill"

it. One cannot or need not kill any Mithya vastu. Only recognize

that it is Mithya and rest in peace.

> <<<Misery is due to the perception of objects. If they are not

there, there will be no contingent thoughts and so misery is wiped

off.>>

> Objects are there and one cannot expect them "not to be there".

The whole problem is how one looks at these objects subjectively and

internalize them and then interact with them. The objects are not my

creation, including the mind. They are all given and may I repeat

one cannot expect them "not to be there". Moreover, being Eswara's

creation, which is perfect, they all serve a purpose.

>>

>

> R. S. Mani

>

> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out.

>

September 26, 2006

Namaste, Sri Dhyanasaraswatiji,

May I reciprocate your Navaratri Greetings.

You have mentioned:

<<why are we even discussing about Dhyana and Atma Vichara ? AS long as there is the 'intellect of the ego, we will indulge in these type of discussions. Shreyas and Preyas - don't we all crave for that? >>>>

“Don’t we all crave for Shreyas and Preyas?”

Yes, but why do we have this craving? Because our intellect is loaded with pre-conceived notions. At least we all know that.

In order to protect us from the pre-conceived notions and particularly the cravings for Shreyas and Preyas, continuous meditation in the form of mananam of the Knowledge unfolded in the Upanishads through our Great Gurus is a must so that at least we can try to make it to our GOAL.

To live in this world and interact in this world with the Knowledge as unfolded to us (i.e. Jeeva Brahma Eva Na apara) is like “walking on the sharp edge of a razor” (the Upanishad itself mentions that). So, this “walking” with the required “balance” calls for spontaneous wisdom resulting from the self knowledge. For this continuous Satsanga, in the form of Sravana, Manana (“tat Chintanam”), and even discussion (that is “tat kadhanam”, and “tat paraspara bodhanam”) etc. is a must.

As for “AS long as there is the 'intellect of the ego”, may I say, there is nothing wrong with the intellect being there, and it will be there, and it is a blessing to us from That Giver, i.e. Eswara. With what I mentioned above, i.e. continuous Satsanga, the intellect slowly, but definitely (may take even janmas!) gets freed from the pre-conceived notions which alone give birth to cravings for shreyas and preyas, very dearly nursed and nurtured by the Ego, totally blind with self ignorance.

With warm regards

Mani

R. S. Mani

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September 27, 2006

Oh! mani-j, if i recollect correctly , you live in Calcutta , don't

you ? That is the place to be during Navaratri. Durga mata returns

to her maternal 'home' ( prithvi) from KAILASHA ( her husband's

abode). wow ! i can just imagine Pandals being put up all around

the city for community Durga puja festival and the All India Radio

playing 'ayi giri nandini song' in m.s. subbalaxmi's melodious

voice. Not to speak of all the raoadside sweet shops selling my

favorite 'rasogullas' and 'sandesh' and women vying with each other

to buy sarees and jewellery to look their best during the festival

season. Yes - this is all part of 'sadhana' also. In tantra , the

body is also worshipped - this body is given only to be engaged in

the service of the Goddess ! DEVI HERSELF IS THE 'KALPAVRIKSHA' WHO

LIVES IN THE BODY.

Tanoti vipulan arthan tattvamantra-samanvitan

Trananca kurute yasmat tantram ityabhidhyate.

(It is called Tantra because it promulgates great knowledge

concerning Tattva and Mantra and because it saves.)

WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH YOUR RESPONSE TO MY POST ? EVERYTHING !

YOU WRITE :

" As for "AS long as there is the 'intellect of the ego", may I say,

there is nothing wrong with the intellect being there, and it will

be there, and it is a blessing to us from That Giver, i.e. Eswara."

TRUE! TRUE! YES, IN TANTRA , EVERYTHING IS ABOUT 'AFFIRMATION' NOT

NEGATION - ALL ARE 'SHAKTIS' GIVEN BY THE GODDESS TO ENGAGE IN hER

SADHANA OR WORSHIP - tAN ( BODY) , MAN ( MIND) AND DHAN( WEALTH) ARE

ALL MEANT ONLY TO BE EMPLOYED IN 'HER' DIVINE SERICE AND WORSHIP !

but what we should be cautious is the 'ego' taking over !

or 'ahamkara' while reciting 'omkara'! smile!

A little bit of 'ego' is necessary for lokasangraham but a big ego (

holier than thou attitude) - no, never!

so, may i please leave you with these two verses from Viveka

chudamani

296. Therefore give up the identification with this lump of flesh,

the gross body, as well as with the ego or the subtle body, which

are both imagined by the Buddhi. Realising thy own Self, which is

Knowledge Absolute and not to be denied in the past, present or

future, attain to Peace.

297. Cease to identify thyself with the family, lineage, name, form

and the order of life, which pertain to the body that is like a

rotten corpse (to a man of realisation). Similarly, giving up ideas

of agency and so forth, which are attributes of the subtle body, be

the Essence of Bliss Absolute.

(subbuji- may we have the sanskrit versions pl)

life is about celebration - knowing that everything is impermanent -

the only thing that is permanent is 'Atma' not inteelect or ego or

any combination therin - intellect of the ego or ego of the

intellect!

enjoy!

September 30, 2006

Sri Dhayanshwarji,

Navaratri or as they call “Pujo” is the national festival of Bengal, like Onam. Mahabali visits Kerala during Onam and Devi Mahishasura Mardini visits Bengal. Devi is always present everywhere all the time (Yaa Devi Sarvabhooteshu “Sarva” RoopEna “SadA” Samstitha, Namasthasmai….), and Pujo it appears is an occasion for “remembering” that. Here, like in Kerala, people spend all their savings on new clothes, etc., (women on beauty parlors etc), and they all enjoy the occasion and visit the Pandals also to pay their “PranAm” to Devi from Mahashashti, onwards till Bejoya Dashami.

On Bejoya Dashami day the idols are all taken for immersion (“Bisorjan”!) in the river Bhageerathi in Kolkata and other rivers, lakes etc. in other places.

All the City Restaurants do very brisk business including Bars.

Many people take the occasion to be away from the City, to escape the crowd and the sound, on short holidays, because they feel Puja or Pujo is the same “tamasha” year after year and they do not find anything new there.

AS FOR “AHAMKARA” some clarification may be useful.

Who says one has AhamkAra? It appears, only others say that so and so has AhamkAra, but that person himself may not feel that way. It is very difficult to comment on AhamkAra.

It is natural for everybody to be significant, because the intrinsic Swaroopa of everybody is the most significant, being the Consciousness or Awareness or Knowledge itself. However, not knowing this inherent swaroopa, people manipulate everything in order to be significant. In the process, Ahamkara may raise its head.

Everyone gets up from deep sleep with the first feeling in his mind “Aham Asmi” and not knowing that this Aham is also SadA BhAmi, whether he does anything or not, he engages himself in various pursuits to see for himself that he is also SadA BhAmi, i.e. always significant.

Moreover, even if it appears that there is AhamkAra on the part of a so and so, when that so and so itself is Mithya what does it matter if there is AhamkAra? AhamKara belongs to Ego, and not Atma, as Atma does nothing and does not participate in any action or in the results of any action. It is all for the Ego, under the spell of ignorance.

Self or Atma is Shudha Sakshi Chaitanyam.

Recently, I read a lecture by Swami Paramarthananda, where he has referred to a book, called “Jeeva YAtra” written by Swami Gyanendra Bharati attached to the Sringeri Matt. He says:

Quote:

NityAnanda cannot be any form of experience as any experience has to be anityam only. The most mystical experience happens in SamAdhi and it is not there afterwards. When SamAdhi ends he has to build up SamAdhi experience. So it is anitya. NityAnanda must be some thing other than the experience in the world. Is there anything that is other than the world and its experiences? There can be only one thing. That Conscious Principle is aware of both the experiences as well as the objects. That Sakshi Chaitanyam alone has to be different from anitya anubhava and anitya vishaya. That Sakshi is called NityAnanda. If Sakshi is NityAnanda, how do you reach that Sakshi? It is not through external journey. Through the internal journey called pancha kosha viveka, we have to arrive at the NityAnanda as the Sakshi Swaroopam. Tht is hinted by the author in the expression vishnoho paramam padam.

Unquote

Warm regards

Mani

dhyanasaraswati <dhyanasaraswati > wrote: Oh! mani-j, if i recollect correctly , you live in Calcutta , don't