Tenth man example and related questions

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

One positive outcome of the recent discussions on "experience vs

understanding" was to get me thinking more on the subject and help

clarify my own mind. Sri Shyam-ji and Shri Sreenivasa

Murthy-ji brought up some important questions using the 'Tenth man'

analogy in messages 33299, 33344, 33351 that I would like to briefly

address in this message.

 

>> from 33299

In the most important chapter in the Upadesa Sahasri,

Bhagwan Shankara uses the 10th man example repeatedly.

Why? Because that really is the most apt example for

tat tvam asi. The tenth man can never be an object of

experience, because the tenth man already is. He does

not have to "become" the tenth man. This is crucial to

understand. He needs a Guru who can tell him that he

already is who he has been searching for. And then he

knows. If he keeps waiting for a "10th" man experience

instead, it is with certitude going to be an unending

wait.

>>

 

>> from 33344

Does the tenth man need a trance to know temporarily

who he is, to temporarily "experience" himself, so as

to enable him to know that he alone is the tenth man

before coming to a firm knowledge that "I am that"

>>

 

It is true in the Tenth man analogy that once the Guru tells him, he

(the disciple) knows. This is of course assuming that the disciple

is actually 'listening'. What if the disciple is distracted or

overcome with worry etc etc. In that case, doesn't he need to be

told to 'focus' first, brought to attention before he is told he is

the tenth man?. That 'focus' or effort to get the disciple's

attention is the practice of meditation etc (Sadhana). So even in

the tenth man example preparatory steps are needed if the disciple

is not an uttama adhikari - if he is not ready or mentally available

for the instruction.

 

Let us also look at it from another perspective. We all (the

sadhakas) have been already told we are the 'tenth man' - through

listening to numerous discourses, reading books etc.

Still we do not know ourselves to be the tenth man. If we ask why

this is so, the answer has to be that there are obstacles to the

dawn of knowledge.

And Sadhana, especially intense dhyana is prescribed in the sastras

is the remover of obstacles (such as mistaken identity with the body

etc) as can be seen even from the first chapter of Panchadasi (and

Vivekachudamani etc).

 

Also please note that a person practicing dhyana does not do so for

the purpose of entering a 'trance' - this happens in due course

automatically as dhyana matures. As Panchadasi explains the

highest 'trance' removes 'crores and crores of' obstacles.

 

The explanation above should also answer Shri Sreenivasa Murthy-ji's

question (IMO)

>> from 33351

Everybody ALWAYS has that identity with It, but it

appears to be related to something else.

>>

 

Very true and various sadhanas prescribed (including dhyana)

ultimately remove the mistaken identity with 'something else'

(misapprehension).

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan

wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> One positive outcome of the recent discussions on "experience vs

> understanding" was to get me thinking more on the subject and help

> clarify my own mind. Sri Shyam-ji and Shri Sreenivasa

> Murthy-ji brought up some important questions using the 'Tenth

man'

> analogy in messages 33299, 33344, 33351 that I would like to

briefly

> address in this message.

Srigurubhyo NamaH

 

Namaste Sundar Rajan and all others,

 

Even as i was thinking exactly on the above lines, your above post

arrived just to confirm that in the infinite 'thought-space' there

does occur what is now termed 'telepathy'. Different people are

able to 'pick-up' the same signals at the same time.

 

Here is a verse from the Vivekachudamani that brings into clear

relief the idea conveyed by you:

 

I will present the verse first and then the elucidation:

 

Aptoktim, khananam, tathopari-shilA-apakarShaNam, svIkRR^itim,

nikShepaH samapekShate na hi bahiH shabdaistu nirgacchati |

tadvat brahmavid-upadesha-manana-dhyAnaAdibhiH labhyate

mAyAkArya-tirohitam svam-amalam tattvam na duryuktibhiH || 67 ||

 

 

(65. As a treasure hidden underground requires (for its extraction)

competent instruction, excavation, the removal of stones and other

such things lying above it and (finally) grasping, but never comes

out by being (merely) called out by name, so the transparent Truth

of the self, which is hidden by Maya and its effects, is to be

attained through the instructions of a knower of Brahman, followed

by reflection, meditation and so forth, but not through perverted

arguments.)

Additionally, this verse is also useful for the understanding of the

above:

66. Therefore the wise should, as in the case of disease and the

like, personally strive by all the means in their power to be free

from the bondage of repeated births and deaths.

 

It would be very beneficial to read the commentary by the Sringeri

Acharya to this verse. For the word 'grasping', the commentary says:

sAkshAtkara. For the word 'Adi' = etc., the commentary says:

nirvikalpa samAdhi. (Thus, as a culmination of shravanam, mananam

and nididhyasanam, the sAkshAtkAra, realization, takes place in

samAdhi).

 

Now, the process is explained in the above verse. First the hearing

from the Shastra/Guru about the Truth. This is common to both

the `Tenth Man' example as well as the above example. The

excavation, etc. point to the mananam and nididhyasanam. This step

is not there in the `Tenth Man' example as that is a case

of `realization upon hearing itself'. The `grasping' (sAkshAtkAra)

spoken of above, again, is common to both the examples. The instant

realization that occurs when there are no obstacles (in the case of

the aspirant of very high caliber, the obstacles have been overcome

even before hearing the Truth. In the other case, the effort

follows upon hearing the Truth) is striking from the above verse.

This instant realization is what occurs in EVERY case. That such is

the case and not anything else is borne out amply in the Acharya's

Bhashyas both implicitly and explicitly.

Here, we have a case where the sadhana other than just shravana,

hearing, is also indispensable. While the case of the uttamadhikAri

is best portrayed by the `tenth man' example, the above example

of `obtaining a hidden-treasure' portrays the case of an adhikari

who is not a pre-eminent sadhaka who can come to the direct

realization of the Truth upon being told once. It would be

pertinent to note that the volume of literature on Vedanta is so

huge only because the second type is what is encountered in the

majority. The case of the `supreme aspirant' is very few and far

between. The following link is to the Sutra bhashya (IV.i.i). When

this entire commentary (for the two sutras) is read with patience it

will clear many misconceptions about the role of shravana, manana

and nididhyasana and sAkshAtkAra. This section contains two sutras:

IV.i.i and IV.i.2. (Incidentally, let me point out that in the

second of these sutra-bhashyas the word `anubhava' occurs, in

various forms/derivatives, so many times that a person who reads

this bhashya with this in mind will find this very striking. In the

English rendering the word `intuit' is used for the original

word `anubhava'. A sample:

 

atrochyate – bhavet AvruttyAnarthakyam tam prati yaH tattvamasi it

sakrud uktameva brahmAtmatvam anubhavitum shaknuyAt. The meaning:

Let there be no need for repetition in the case of such a person who

is able to experience (intuit) his Brahman-nature upon being told

once the instructive sentence: `That thou art'.) The commentary

goes on: for he who is unable (to so experience), there is indeed

the need for repetition:

 

http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritual/brahma_sutra/brahma_sutra_sanka

ra_38262.php

 

To conclude, let me thank the very discussion that took place, with

various points of view, for bringing out another `fall-out': Apart

from the teachings contained in the Upanishads/Bhashyas/other works

being case-specific, even the examples used therein are to be seen

as being case-specific. One teaching/example will not be suitable

for all cases and thus cannot be generalized. This is the

understanding I came to at the end of the day.

 

Note: A detailed exposition of the `Tenth Man' example is found in

the Panchadashi Chapter VII (Tripti-deepam) from verse 22 onwards,

in about twenty verses. This can be read in the above mentioned

site, by suitably navigating to `Panchadashi'.

 

 

Sunder Rajan says,

And Sadhana, especially intense dhyana is prescribed in the sastras

> is the remover of obstacles (such as mistaken identity with the

body

> etc) as can be seen even from the first chapter of Panchadasi (and

> Vivekachudamani etc).

 

Comment: In his early Panchadashi classes (perhaps conducted in

Rishikesh, morning and evening), Swami Paramarthananda ji, while

explaining the 'pancha-kosha viveka' (discriminating the five

sheaths from the Atman/Brahman) says: At least ten years have to be

taken up to get over the 'I am the body' idea. (unquote).

Just imagine how much longer it will take to get over the

identification with the other subtle koshas !!

 

Sundar Rajan ji says:

The explanation above should also answer Shri Sreenivasa Murthy-

ji's question (IMO) >> from 33351

> Everybody ALWAYS has that identity with It, but it

> appears to be related to something else.

> >>

>

> Very true and various sadhanas prescribed (including dhyana)

> ultimately remove the mistaken identity with 'something else'

> (misapprehension).

>

> regards

> Sundar Rajan

>

 

Comment:

Let me address the observations of Sri Srinivasa Murthy in another

post of mine.

 

Warm regards,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

Namaste,

 

The following link, when i test-checked on 'word', worked well. But

when it is clicked from the post on the List, it goes to the Home

page. I suppose the reason for this is: the portion appearing on the

second line is not picked up while 'linking'. Is there any way to

overcome this?

 

http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritual/brahma_sutra/brahma_sutra_sanka

> ra_38262.php

 

 

> Warm regards,

> subbu

> Om Tat Sat

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sundar Rajan-ji.

 

Sheer telepathy! My mind was echoing early this morning the very

same thoughts you expressed in your mail.

 

This is personal experience. I would be listening with keen interest

to some teacher, say Sw. Dayanandaji, unraveling a very important

point in Vedanta. When he reaches the critical moment of clinching

the issue, I have often found that I am totally unavailable with the

result that his message is totally lost on me. This happens due to

some distraction, often external like some physical disturbance, or

mental like some overwhelming thought.

 

I may read any number of books, listen to any number of teachers and

sacrifice any number of comforts. Yet, I may still fall short

of `knowing' that I am that 10th man. Why? I will never `realize' I

am the 10th man despite all my erudition and sharp intellect unless I

have what we call "Grace". I can't expect to have it free without

paying the price of arduous sAdhana. And to be able to pay that

price, i.e. having firmness in sAdhana, I again need Grace and that

cannot be had without surrender. What harm is there in these

circumstances to take to some proven methodology that has received

endorsement in our ancient wisdom?

 

To quote again what I quoted here a couple of weeks ago:

 

tAmupaihi maharAjaH sharaNam parameshwarIM

ArAdhitA sAiva nriNAm bhogaswargApavargadA

 

(Oh, King of Kings, surrender unto Her, the Ultimate Lordess, whose

worship grants all enjoyments, heaven and final liberation.) (DevI

SaptashatI).

 

Well, we have now reached DhyAnasaraswati through Maniji (Ref: their

discussion yesterday about advaitic understanding and sAdhana in the

context of PYS)!

 

PraNAms and Happy NavarAtri to all.

 

Madathil Nair

_____________________

 

 

advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan

wrote:

>>

> Let us also look at it from another perspective. We all (the

> sadhakas) have been already told we are the 'tenth man' - through

> listening to numerous discourses, reading books etc.

> Still we do not know ourselves to be the tenth man. If we ask why

> this is so, the answer has to be that there are obstacles to the

> dawn of knowledge.

> And Sadhana, especially intense dhyana is prescribed in the sastras

> is the remover of obstacles (such as mistaken identity with the

body

> etc) as can be seen even from the first chapter of Panchadasi (and

> Vivekachudamani etc).

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

>

> advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v@>

> wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> The following link, when i test-checked on 'word', worked well. But

> when it is clicked from the post on the List, it goes to the Home

> page. I suppose the reason for this is: the portion appearing on

the

> second line is not picked up while 'linking'. Is there any way to

> overcome this?

>

> http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritual/brahma_sutra/brahma_sutra_sanka

> > ra_38262.php

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Shyam-ji, Sundar Rajan-ji, Subbu-ji and everyone,

 

Many of our sages of the highest realization appear to have very little

rigidity in their views. Sri Ramana fits into that mode. I think anyone

following any path can read Talks with Sri Ramana and benefit from them.

 

Sunder-ji recently shared that we should keep in mind the inherent

flexibility that is build into Santana Vedic Dharma.

 

Axiom of Sanatana Vedic Dharma : ekaM sad vipra bahudha vadanti |

[Truth is One; the Sages speak of It variously].

 

That story posted by Sundar Rajan-ji about the Yogi and his two

disciples was very nice. I think Subbu-ji and I must have been shedding

tears at the same time. MahaPandit Sri Nair-ji's story was quite funny.

 

Well the post below byNeelakantan-ji about Mother Meenakshi was quite

beautiful. I will send a copy to HS as well.

 

Harsha

 

*This verse is from Sri Nilakantha Dikshita's AnandasAgarastava. Sri

Dikshitar, after examining the various paths that are usually

prescribed - jnAna, karma and bhakti - concludes that all these are

beyond him or they do not yield immediate relief. To him, even half

a moment more in samsAra is like a hundred kalpa's! So he says:

 

na jnAyate mama hitam nitarAmupAyO

dInOsmi devi samayAcaraNAkshamOs *

 

*mi |

tat tvAm ananya sharaNah sharaNam prapadye

mInAkhi vishvajananIm janaNim mamaiva ||

 

Translation: I do not know what is good for me, I do not at all know

the means (of achieving it), I am without resources, O Devi, and I

am incapable of performing the prescribed rituals; therefore, I who

have no other refuge, take refuge in you, O Meenakshi, the Mother of

the universe, as also my Mother!

 

If such a mahatma says this, what to speak of people like me?

 

Pranams to Devi Meenakshi!

 

Neelakantan*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shyam wrote:

>

> Dear Sunder-ji

> I agree with you completely.

>

> That adhikaritvam or competence is necessary for jnana

> is wellknown and had been elaborated by me in a prior

> post. Perhaps it is worth reiterating. It may even be

> worth expanding on by learned members, as more than

> tat tvam asi it is these qualifications that really

> need a lifetime or perhaps even several lifetimes of

> effort.

>

> The main requisite (besides viveka and vairagya) which

> are requirements for a "uttama adhikari" are the

> shamaadi shatsampat or sixfold virtue - Shama, Dama,

> Uparati, Titiksha, Shraddha and Samadhana.

> Selfknowledge is a "mirage" without a fairly intense

> degree of acquisition of these qualities.

>

> Shama is equanimity of mind or mind control. This is

> the first and at the same time quite easily the most

> difficult to attain. It demands intense selfeffort and

> selfobservation.

> We only have to examine ourselves honestly for an hour

> or so to see how much shama we have or more

> appropritaly how much we lack?

>