The Need for a specific Atman-experience for Liberation- Part I

[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Firstly, I whole heartedly thank Sri Srinivas Murthy prabhuji for quoting

an appropriate bhAshya vAkya to show that *Atma jnAna* is not an

adventitious thing!!! Atman/brahman being a self evident thing no pramANa

is required to establish this truth..under these circumstances where is the

question of *time bound* special experience :-))

 

Secondly, Sri subbuji, I appreciate your appetite for debate & enthusiasm

in finding fault in others' interpretation of bhAshya vAkya :-))

 

Let us now see, whether explanation what you have provided in justification

would serve the purpose of yours..

 

Subbu prabhuji:

 

The Bhashya for this is: Because It is such, therefore It should be

realized in one form only, namely as homogeneous Pure Intelligence.

(unquote)

 

What is to be noted here is: Even though Brahman is ALWAYS THERE as

oneself, yet, to bring about the cessation of the wrong identity with

non-Atman, there is a need to have an experience of Atman in

its Pure form, through the purified mind as shown by the earlier mantra.

It is this experience, called sAkshAtkaara, that dispels the identity with

the non-Atman once for all.

 

bhaskar :

 

Agreed but what is the pure form of Atman here?? whether there is any time

when Atman is unpure?? The scripures say that Atman is our innermost self

which is sat chit Ananda...To know/realize this ever existing truth

*jnAna*/knowledge alone is the direct spiritual practice for that

*socalled* sAkshAtkAra...Infact, for attaining that mukti there is no need

of any help whatsoever from another *extraneous* experience in some trance

state...why?? because nityO hi AtmaBAvaH sarvasya atadviShaya iva

pratyavaBAsatE...

 

First Subbu prabhuji gives bhAshya vAkya :

 

There are a few more places that the Acharya makes this kind of a

statement. For example, in this very Upanishad in 3.5.1, He says: //All

that one who has understood Brahman from the words of Guru and

the scripture needs to do is to eliminate all notions of the non-Atman.

Having done so, he becomes a Yogin who has accomplished his task.//

 

Immediately after stating this, He says: `Brahmaiva sarvam iti pratyayaH

upajAyate. Sa brAhmaNaH '?Meaning: the vritti, mental modification, `All is

Brahman' comes about. He is a BrAhmaNaH?

 

And then continued his own interpretation :

 

So, what is to be noted is, the Acharya first said what is the

understanding and immediately follows it up with the actual experience, the

sAkshAtkAra.

 

bhaskar :

 

where did you pick this emphasization of *actual* special experience from

the above bhAshya vAkya?? you have simply quoted some bhAshya vAkya &

started giving your own interpretation to justify your claims...prabhuji,

on the other hand can I show you bhAshya vAkya where shankara explicitly

says brahma jnAna is NOT avasthA vishEsha ( state specific) vyavahAra

abhAva jnAna???

 

Subbu prabhuji:

 

Thus, we saw in both the cases of the BrihadAraNyaka Upanishad quoted

above, that the actual realization,

the experience, that brings about the cessation of identity with the

non-Atman is explicitly stated by the Acharya based on the Upanishadic

teaching.

 

bhaskar :

 

but this cessation of identity is not time bound experience like

NS....trishvapi kAlEshu Atmani saMstitha...clears jnAni's position beyond

doubt...it is not an experience...it is an intuitive realization that he is

always THAT...

 

Subbu prabhuji:

 

Again, in the Chandogya Upanishad 8.6.7.1, there occurs an expression: `so

anveShTavyaH, sa vijijnAsitavyaH' = He has to be enquired into and directly

realized. The Bhashyam for this

expression is:

 

// What will result from knowing It and enquiring into It for

realization? That is being answered:

He attains all the worlds and all the desires. For him is the

attainment of all the desires and all the worlds, who having known

this Self as described, through the means as instructed by the

scriptures and teachers, (vijAnAti) = makes It an object of his own

realization, i.e. the result comes in the form of becoming the Self

of all. ??The perceptible result is the cessation of the contrary

comprehension of the Self as characterized by the qualities of the

body, on the comprehension of Its true nature. And this cessation

is a perceptible result. //

 

So, in all the above cases we saw that the Acharya states explicitly that

there is an experience that PRECEDES the experience of cessation of all

duality. This sequence is unmistakable for a discerning reader.

 

bhaskar :

 

Again, it is your own reading, if Atman is an *object* of realization,

there is no meaning to the words like astUla, anaNU, achintya, agrAhya,

agOtra, apramEya in shruti-s...Moreover, the above bhAshya vAkya can noway

help you to advocate *special* individual experience like NS....why?? it is

coz...the result comes in the form of becoming the Self of all (see

above)...sarvatra samadarshinaH...samaM pashyati sarvatra...etc.

shruti/smruti vAkya-s defeats the theory of *individual* experience of some

trance state....Sree Shyam prabhuji addressed these issues beautifully in

his recent mail...Hope you would read those points...

 

Subbu prabhuji:

 

Finally, let me quote one more instance, from the Bhagavadgita Bhashya 18th

chapter 50th verse:

 

//What is to be undertaken is only the elimination of the

superimposition on Brahman through avidya, but no effort is needed

for knowing Brahman, for It is quite self-evident. It is because

the intellect is distracted ?.appears to be concealed, difficult to

REALIZE?.But to those whose intellect has become freed from external

appearances?..there is nothing more blissful, manifest, well known,

easily REALIZED?//

 

Here too, we see the two types of statements appearing in close proximity

to each other; one about the `elimination of the superimposition' and the

other about `the realization'. The sequence, again, is unmistakable.

 

bhaskar :

 

So according to you (your second para above), there are two steps one is

elimination of the superimposition & second one is the realization...like

first elimination of snake from the rope & second realizing that it is

rope...this again, quite contrary to bhAshya vAkya you yourself quoted

above. For your ready reference I am reproducing the same below :

 

//quote //

What is to be undertaken is only the elimination of the superimposition on

Brahman through avidya, but no effort is needed for knowing Brahman, for It

is quite self-evident.

//unquote//

 

now you tell me where are two steps here?? why shankara insisting ONLY the

elimination of the superimposition is required & NO EFFORT IS NEEDED for

knowing brahman?? if at all two steps prescribed for self realization

shankara would have definitely said that here....but here there is no sign

of that!!! but you have come up with altogether different interpretation

just to float the theory of NS.....why prabhuji, you are simply twisting

the simple bhAshya vAkya-s for your own convenience?? I am sorry to say

this...but it is a glaring evidence of mis-representation of shankara

siddhAnta..

 

In the next mail, we shall see your logical refutation of Sri Srinivasa

Murthy's quote...

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar