The Need for a specific Atman-experience for Liberation- Part II

[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

subbu prabhuji:

 

Whenever logic, tarka, is taken up, there is a need for a `driShTAnta',

analogy.

 

bhaskar :

 

And also tarka should be endorsed by shruti-s...shrutyanugrahIta tarka says

shankara...if we follow this rule, then I think there is no need for undue

stretching of simple analogies, Infact, this analogy was meant to show the

adhyAsa not to show the steps in realization:-))...Anyway, let us see how

this *stretched* analogy is going to help you.

 

subbu prabhuji:

 

To make things simple, let us take a well-known analogy, the rope-snake.

Here, the problem is the erroneous perception of the snake where actually

only the rope exists. The process of eradicating this error is this: One

has to only `perceive' the substratum, rope. One need not, however, bring

another rope from outside and place it there on the spot in order to

correct the error. There is a rope already there. What is required

is to shine a torch on the spot and see the rope. That dispels the error.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes, and at the same time there is no need for two steps..i.e. first

realizing that it is not snake & go and sit in an isolated place in a mind

blank state to realize that it is indeed rope:-))

 

Subbu prabhuji:

 

Exactly as in this manner, to eradicate the error of samsara, what is

needed is a perception of the substratum, Atman/Brahman AS IT IS.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes, what is this Atman?? what is the meaning of knowing it *As it is*??

shankara himself clears this doubt in gItAbhAshya that *the knowing of

brahman* is only by the process of removing the pramAtrutva or knowership

that is imagined or wrongly conceived in him and thereby falsifying the

dealings of pramANa & pramEya!! Because Atman is the real nature of the

pramAtru and He is self established & there is no need for any pramANa or

means of knowledge or aids such as NS to know him...it is for this reason

only the shAstra is known as the ultimate proof (Antya pramANa)...Kindly

also see sUtra bhAshya on shAstrayOnitvAt sUtra.

 

Subbu prabhuji :.

 

There is no need, as Sri Murthy quoted correctly the Acharya,

to `bring' any new `Atman' for this; Atman is already there.

 

bhaskar :

 

Infact Sri Murthy prabhuji's quote was to show that there is no need for

any special experience to realize Atman & NOT about bringing new Atman

:-))

 

Subbu prabhuji:

 

But what is essentially needed is to HAVE A DIRECT PERCEPTION OF THE

PURE SELF WITHOUT ANY SUPERIMPOSTION.

 

bhaskar :

 

And this direct perception comes from vivEka of Atma & anAtma...this saMyag

drushti is not restricted to some particular exalted state called NS..it is

a permanent *normal* vision of jnAni...

 

Subbu prabhuji:

 

The `torch' that sheds light on the `spot' is the Vedanta Shastra taught by

the Guru. The `eye'

that is required to `perceive' the Self is the properly/suitably cultivated

intellect (manasA eva anu-draShTavyam). When this is accomplished, the

ignorance is destroyed and what results is the

error-free vision for the Jnani.

 

bhaskar :

 

Atman is ever self-effulgent one!! there is no necessity of phala vyApti

jnAna. For example to see the pot in a dark room, both eye sight & light

are required...but when we want to see the light then the eyesight is

enough...there is no necessily of another light... is it not?? This eye

sight here is shruti vAkya janita jnAna.

 

Moreover, I dont know how your above description can fit into the frame of

time bound individual experience of NS ?? would you mind to elaborate it

prabhuji??

 

Since rest of your mail has already been addressed by Sri Shyam prabhuji I

shall stop here.

 

Subbu

Om Tat Sat

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar