harerama Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 The same question goes for chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, doing yoga, etc.? Answers like try it for yourself and you'll know hold no weight, simply because the mind is easily fooled, and that is why science exists: to take us away from illusion and wishful thinking and know reality as it is, God or no God. What if experiential knowledge is merely the product of wishful thinking or wilful delusion? In any case, I've been chanting the hare krishna mantra, especially when depressed, and I haven't had much benefit in any case, other than to focus my mind on chanting Hare Krishna and not on the troubling thoughts that I've had about God and spirituality and reality as it seems to be (which is to say that reality shows spirituality and God as an illusion and not something genuine at all). In the end, it doesn't really help, and even meditating with closed eyes, in a lotus posture, picturing Krishna in my mind, putting all my attention into chanting, I just don't really feel anything for the most part. Once in a while I feel an enormous amount of pressure in my head, particularly center of the eyebrows, but that's it. Even the kundalini phenomenon I've read about, in the beginning I felt that yes, this was the answer to enlightenment experiences, that this mechanism was common in all religions, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and of course Hinduism and that it was a genuine phenomenon that is rare, and thus cannot be known by many people especially scientists, so they would never really be able to comprehend the truth. Now I see it as possibly nothing more than a psychotic break with reality, providing the illusion that there's actually such a thing as shakti or pure energy that is intelligent and ascends "chakras" endowing people with spiritual insight and spiritual gifts such as astral travel and seeing God and conversing with God. With investigations into what mystics experience, the studies of the effects of psilocybin and mescaline and other hallucinogenic drugs on average people which produce similar mystical experiences, and the claims by scientists that all psychic phenomena can be explained away by current scientific knowledge there just doesn't seem to be any reason left to believe anymore. Is God truly dead? I know I've spoken on the behalf of spirituality on these forums, but I have strong doubts, and with my practice in meditation and the lack of any effects, these doubts are becoming increasingly strong, putting me in a depression. I don't believe in medication to cure depression, not if there's a genuine reason for feeling depressed, and to me this is as genuine a reason as any. I don't want to believe that psychology and modern science has taken experiences of God-realization, God Himself, and any form of spirituality other than the vaguest forms out of the equation, but I'm becoming increasingly convinced of this. Thoughts of God, and spirituality, and the wish to know of His existence continue to dominate my thoughts, so much so that I have been trying to resolve my fear that my wish to go into science and my wish to know God and remain spiritual do not conflict with each other. As a consequence, I've been trying to develop a more spiritual life before immersing myself in scientific pursuits, hopefully in medicine where the idea of God's existence and the power of medicine is constantly in conflict with one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Just what effects do you expect from chanting the Hare Krishna mahamantra? Maybe that's where we should begin our discussion: what effects we do expect, what effects we should expect, how to approach chanting, and what conditions may impede our experiencing the full effects of chanting. If you're interested in such discussion, let's start, if you don't mind, with what effects you expect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Not to be sacriligeous, but as one Guest pointed out "Hare Krsna" is not the only Hindu path in the world. Some Hindu groups DO NOT advocate the chanting of advanced mantras for most people. Why? Because if you are not following and practicing the Yamas and Niyamas, and if you still experience periodic episodes of lust, anger, and/or greed etc. then what will happen is if you chant mantras your karma will speed up. If you speed up your karma faster than what would be natural for you, then there is a very big chance that you will become more depressed as you confront the darker aspects of yourself and your mind before you normally would have done so reincarnation wise. [according to groups that do NOT advocate sitting prematurely in lotus position and do NOT advocate prematurely chanting advanced mantras. If chanting Hare Krsna works for you and you enjoy it and are getting good results from it, then by all means keep on enjoying doing it then]. What some other groups advocate is just find and do something that you love, i.e. right livelihood. And do good deeds and kind things, the charya pada path. And to the best of your ability, follow the Yamas and the Niyamas. In other words they recommend first you just learn the spiritual ABCs or the Yamas and Niyamas [dharma] ages birth to 25. Then you find right livelihood [artha] and engage in something fun for you and useful to others ages 25-50. Next from doing nice things then you accumulate punya and all kinds of nice pleasurable will happen for you [kama] so that you won't feel depressed if you are not rightly situated according to your own unique psycho-cultural-social-aesthetic tendencies. From ages 50 - 75 you should have it somewhat together so that you are not always in the scrimping and saving modality of austerity that being a student and raising a family entails. Then because you had a good life and you were able to experience having all of your desires fulfilled, or at least some of them, then you can focus on moksa [ages 75 - 100]. Dharma > Artha > Kama > Moksa If religion is not your thing then find something that is your thing then. That is how some Hindus view how life will feel the happiest. I am not saying it is right or wrong but that is how some Hindu sanghas view life. As far as science goes, here is an interesting article on how the brain works when people meditate: cover story, "What's On Your Mind?" National Geographic. March 2005. Whether there is a God or not, why waste time worrying about it if it makes you feel depressed and so unhappy? There was a recent magazine cover story "The God Gene". It said that some people are more into mystical experiences and it makes them feel happy. It makes them feel happy the same way that sports makes other people happy. So why not just do what makes you feel happy and good about yourself: something that arouses a feeling of wonder and awe in your life? This is called artha aka right livelihood according to some Hindus. Perhaps you have read the Bhagavad Gita where it says that everything wonderful and marvellous is an aspect of the Divine: the strength of the strong, intelligence, etc. So if you find some pursuit that you like and enjoy then even according to the Gita you would be in contact with the Divine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srimanta Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 The same question goes for chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, doing yoga, etc.? Answers like try it for yourself and you'll know hold no weight, simply because the mind is easily fooled, and that is why science exists: to take us away from illusion and wishful thinking and know reality as it is, God or no God. What if experiential knowledge is merely the product of wishful thinking or wilful delusion? ...... Thoughts of God, and spirituality, and the wish to know of His existence continue to dominate my thoughts, so much so that I have been trying to resolve my fear that my wish to go into science and my wish to know God and remain spiritual do not conflict with each other. As a consequence, I've been trying to develop a more spiritual life before immersing myself in scientific pursuits, hopefully in medicine where the idea of God's existence and the power of medicine is constantly in conflict with one another. Think like this, can science relieve you forever from birth and death? Imagine, even they discover some medicine and keep you alive for some time but if some one come and shot on your head you will surely die. Then who are you? Are you just a body subject to death or you has something which does not die? Nature shows that every fruit bears at least one seed that can be planted to grow as a tree that can bear fruits again. If a plant can have seed and potential to bear child of its kind then why not human who is much more conscious living entity should not have any potential to take rebirth after one life? So to search this potency whether you have any existence or not after your death is science of religion? This science had been explored by many religion scientists and it is established today that there is life after death based on the potency one can develop through knowledge of soul in this life. How you can develop this knowledge of soul is your own realization about your soul with respect to super soul. Super souls are demigods who had already realized their potency and spiritual life after many births. You can come to contact with such super soul through Guru. Or you can start from today and start realizing yourself by discovering each and every reason by yourself. But that path is not so easy because you have to face many super souls on your way and sometimes you will be trapped by their illusionary power and be captured by them through illusion. So the best way to escape from this trap, you have to worship supreme person Lord Krsna who can over power every super soul and can make your spiritual journey smooth. That's where you begin with Prabhupada, Lord Krsna and Lord Krsna Chaitannya. Lord Krsna Chaitannya had given guarantee that if any one chants Hare Krsna in this Kali yuga, he will come all the way to help that fallen soul and take him to the highest transcendental universe called Golak and make that soul His eternal company who can enjoy highest transcendental bliss of this universe. That soul will be completely liberated from birth and death. Where as that can not be happened if a soul goes to one demigod because demigods always over powered by supreme person and at the time of conflict either one demigod with other, or demigod with other powerful demigods like Shiva, Brahma etc. or even with Krsna, they fall onto material world along with all jivas who are captured by that demigod with His illusionary power. So there is always a risk of birth and death if your soul goes to one demigod. But there is no risk of birth and death if your soul goes to Krsna. Krsna always gives options to His close attendants to serve Him in heaven and also in material world as loving services towards Him and to enjoy everywhere through out universe. So that's why it is told that Krsna and His devotees is highest enjoyer. It is told by Krsna in Bhagavat Gita that, one who offers all fruits of his actions to Krsna, he is most wise because if fruits of all actions are offered to Krsna then already all seeds of that actions also collected by Krsna. So one need not to worry about his Karma and actions that are with Krsna. So spiritually one always remain free from Karma and its action and one can become highest enjoyer of this universe similar to Krsna. But all rascals interpret differently for their own selfish reason and they say that Krsna enjoys because you offer all your Karma and actions to Him. Krsna enjoys only seeing His devotees to enjoy giving them liberation from karma and actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Are you just in a room chanting japa by yourself or something? Do you have any good bhajan tapes? Do you have any good association or sadhu sangha? There is a stage of chanting called the offensive stage in KC. Other groups call it something else, but similar concept. Other Hindu groups say that in the beginning stage you should find a group that you can chant with because "the individual lifts the group and the group lifts the individual." KC people say you need to have "good association". So do you have some nice association? Because in the beginning stages it is almost impossible to lift yourself up by your own endeavors. In the beginning stage melodious music helps and a nice presentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srimanta Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Are you just in a room chanting japa by yourself or something? Do you have any good bhajan tapes? Do you have any good association or sadhu sangha? There is a stage of chanting called the offensive stage in KC. Other groups call it something else, but similar concept. Other Hindu groups say that in the beginning stage you should find a group that you can chant with because "the individual lifts the group and the group lifts the individual." KC people say you need to have "good association". So do you have some nice association? Because in the beginning stages it is almost impossible to lift yourself up by your own endeavors. In the beginning stage melodious music helps and a nice presentation. Just remember that to come to Golok, the highest abode of bliss and enjoyment throughout this universe you have to remember Krsna at the time of your death which is not simple. If you can not remember Krsna or any of His associates then you will be captured by demigods. That's why you need Bhajan and practice. You can chant Krsna anytime there is no offence when Lord Krsna is so merciful and aware of fallen state of soul in Kali Yuga. But you need association and regulative principles because that will help you to understand Krsna and help you to grow with love towards Krsna. As I told, initially you may have many doubts which are spiritual in nature, can easily be answered by superior Adhikari who has already realized Krsna in some extent. That will help you to grow faster. Another thing is that until the fruits are ripe with devotional services towards Krsna with loving relationship, Krsna does not allow touching those fruits to pluck. So until you realized Krsna, you have to remain in this material world with supervision of Krsna and His associates. That’s why many Krsna devotees suffer in material life until they are fully devoted to Krsna with loving services. Even it may not possible one to realize Krsna in one life but Krsna gives guarantee that He will place those souls in their next life such that they need not to start from beginning. They can start from their previous life where they left. That is the mercy of Krsna, from the supreme Lord of universe that none of His devotee losses any merits of devotional services towards Krsna from their previous life. No one can give that guarantee except Krsna, the supreme person of this Universe for sure. So chant Krsna, love Krsna anywhere anytime. There is no offence. There is no offence to love Krsna anytime because who can enter to your heart except Krsna? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I've already written about my experiences during meditation and Kundalini awakening and the answer to your questions is, yes. It is a psyhotic breakdown and at the same time it is a genuine spiritual experience accompanied by phenomenons that cannot be explained by either physics or psychology. In my case doppleganger phenomenon or manifestation of two identical bodies was witnessed by my friend. Funny thing is that in the house where I was sleeping that night I've found the book Kundalini and the third Eye by B.S. Goel known also as Sideshwara Baba in which he describes identical phenomenon that occured during extremely intense Kundalini process. The other phenomenon was so called aport materialization often performed by some tantrics like Sai Baba. I desired certain trivial and most common trinket I saw some hours ago in my colleges car and it appeared on the floor in front of me at exact moment. I was completely in shock and couldn't believe that this was happening to me. I must mention that I touched this trinket when I was in his car and I read that for apport materializations you must first make physical contact with the object. When I make a conscious effort to materialize something it never works but that time I simply desired , I didn't try to manifest anything to boost my ego. This is actually very low type of siddhi and as you can see in a case of Sai Baba it often fails. Why such phenomenons rarely occur during Kundalini proccess of western sadhakas and all they are left with is some form of nervous breakdown? Perhaps the reason is flawed sadhana, or complete lack of spiritual discipline and of course, not observing strict brahmacarya. My sadhana at the time was of same intensity as the one practised in most traditional yoga ashrams and not to mention that I observed total celibacy. Most of these western pseudo-yogis are nothing but cheaters that wanted to attain some bliss and enlightenment while at he same time denying God and Dharma. Regarding chanting maha-mantra. It is nama mantra meant for purification and salvation of the fallen souls in Kali Yuga. I f you want some spectacular siddhis and samadhis then you have probably chose the wrong path but I would advice you against raja yoga approach. It is not recommended for Kali yuga and now after many years living with Kundalini I know why. It is difficult and even dangerous path, especcially pranayamas can have devastating efect on your health if not practised correctly. According to Nikunja Gopal Goswami from Advaita Acarya's sampradaya, Hare Krishna nama mantra must be chanted for purification , until all the lower tamasic and rajasic impulses are conquered. Only such completely purified person with satvic qualities is fit to follow the most demanding asthanga mystical yoga path as described in Srimad Bhagavatam. And don't forget that minimun accepted by Sri Chaitanya was 64 rounds of Hare Krishna mantra, not mere chanting few rounds when you feel in the mood. Bhakta must compulsory chant 64 rounds each day while striving to observe four principles. Do not strive for enlightenment so hard. First attain purification. There are certain thing in this creation that should remain unknown. If you completely forcefully awake unconsious matter it may reusult in one hellish experience. Be content with not knowing everything and just have a faith that Krishna knows all. There are so many half-baked "enligtened" teachers of pseudo- gyana advaita path that realized "all there is" to be realized and yet continue living like dogs and barking at each other. There is more then enough work to be done on this field to keep you busy for many years. Even if you are treading at highest speed and chanting 64 rounds purification and humble attitude will not come easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Harerama, I really feel for you. Your doubts and your depression must be very painful. Someone suggested satsanga, and I think this is a very good suggestion. While this thinking (I might've said obsessing, or even brooding) is necessary sometimes, it seems that you're in a losing battle with your own mind. The association with spiritual people will help you to break free of the artificial assumptions and walls you've constructed, that your thoughts continually circle, and provide you with a fresh perspective; one that is grounded in reality. Asking about the difference between psychology and spirituality is like asking if your life is real or only a dream, a delusion. There is no absolute answer. Likewise, your discounting of direct experience. There is nothing, ultimately, but direct experience. Your highly valued "scientific method" is nothing but direct experience. All of life is direct experience. Truly, if you want to be a person of faith, a godly person, living a spiritual life, you cannot continue to doubt your every spiritual experience. It is called a life of faith for a reason. If you began to doubt each of the mundane experiences of your physical life, as it seems you are doing with your spiritual experiences, it would not be long, I think, before you would become mentally unhinged. You must learn to guard your spirituality from the forces of materialism that seek to destroy what they cannot understand. Keep your spiritual experiences in your heart, where they belong. Do not try to sell them in the marketplace of ideas. Your experiences form the foundation of your faith and describe your spiritual path. Do not let them get dirty and tarnished and ultimately worthless by sharing them with the spiritually ignorant. It seems you are a college student - a science major. Do not confuse knowledge and wisdom. Some very great scientists have been athiests, ignorant of all matters spiritual. Others have been men and women of faith, their spirituality enhancing their scientific work (Einstein is perhaps the most famous). There is no dichotomy between science and spirituality. Science, however, deals with matters physical, while spirituality attempts to leave the physical behind. It is a question of emphasis, rather than opposition. Surrender your heart to the Lord, and seek to keep His flame burning there every moment. All of your sadhana (actually every action) will bring spiritual fruits if they are dedicated to the Lord with love. Spiritual life is hard. It is a constant struggle. But it IS real. In fact, it is more "real" than anything else in this samsara. May God bless you... Jai Maa! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Wonderful words of wisdom, Chris... One of the greatest cures for depression I have found is to help others. Here are some things that have brought joy to me and lifted me out of everything from major depressive disorder to light everyday garden variety angst. For heavy duty depression [like on the verge of suicide]: find a group of happy souls who are kind and non-judgemental and who are musicians. Go out to the biggest city in your area on the most crowded night of the week and do harinam-sankirtan. One or two on mrdanga, up to three on karatalas, take turns being lead singer, bring some free souvenirs for whoever trips out on enjoys it like a calling card with links to online bhajans, perhaps a homemade flyer or two and nice mini devotional art like how Catholics have those saint cards. You won't believe how much fun you will have. You will get on unending mini-crowd of people around you. Young kids will do the latest dance steps with you and have an impromtu dance competition right there and then. Families will come up and ask you where the nearest Hindu temple is. Businessmen will ask you where is the best Indian restaurant in the area. You will make between hundreds and thousands of people happy just in the span of two hours. At least have of the people will have a cell phone that takes pictures and some will be recording you with their video-camera, ensuring that the good vibes and laughter get shared with hundreds if not thousands of other people back home. You will see aging baby boomers cry when they remember the GOOD parts of the sixties. The people who insult you will come back and apologize an hour later and tell you "I'm sorry I have been depressed" and you can counsel them. You can talk to street kids and give them hope and ideas for a positive alterative to a life of drugs. All while dancing and singing with your friends basically. I never did this as part of ISKCON, I started doing this in junior high school because I saw the devotees and it looked like fun. So I convinced my friends to all go out and do it on our own. We had a mental health club as pre-teens so we did it as part of "cheering people up". Later as an adult on the verge of suicide for about six months Krsna returned the favor to me and I had a group of friends say, "Hey let's go out like the Hare Krishnas used to do." You won't believe the cool and fun people you will meet. If you start doing it regularly guys will show up with harmonium and congas. I mean how can you not have fun doing that?!! Who cares if there is God or not or whatever?!!! Krsna's friends don't even think of Him as God. Krsna is just one big party animal looking for any excuse to party and meet pretty girls [this is what my Indian doctor's wife told me]. So why not rock on like Krsna likes to do?!!! Basically music is therapy. That is what I get out of it. And dance is therapy. And laughter is therapy. And it's creative to do things like invent something or create something like music versus listen to canned music. Anyway that is one type of depression lifter. Another thing to get you out of your funk is do good secret unseen deeds for others. I always go dumpster diving and save things that rich people though out that are perfectly good. Then I donate the items I find like perfectly good bedding, shoes, clothes, toys, childrens' books to the nearest homeless shelter. You won't believe how good this will make you feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Such doubts naturally arise in a thoughtful person. To recognize them and deal with them is honest introspection. During this time of seriously dealing with these doubts there is a type of breakdown one experiences, our best example is Arjuna. He was no blind believer. He overcame his doubts by hearing transcendental knowledge from the proper source, Krsna. This is the path we all must take to resolve our own personal crisies when they arrive. Pray to the Lord Krsna in your heart like Arjuna prayed. Ask Krsna to satisfy your doubts. It was after this that Arjuna became a disciple and a soul surrendered unto Krsna. You will become strong after you face this confrontation harerama. Your honest self-reflection is exemplary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Just what effects do you expect from chanting the Hare Krishna mahamantra? Maybe that's where we should begin our discussion: what effects we do expect, what effects we should expect, how to approach chanting, and what conditions may impede our experiencing the full effects of chanting. If you're interested in such discussion, let's start, if you don't mind, with what effects you expect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 You asked this question "How do we really know...etc?" at about the same time that a devotee of Lord Krishna who headed up the Bhaktivedanta Institute just left his body. He spent his entire life organizing conferences and writing papers showing how science and religion intertwine. And he is not the only one who worked on soemthing like this. The past few decades there has been a whole new branch of science called Neuro-Theology. Some neuro-theology researchers have done 40 year longitudinal studies on the relationship between religion and science. For example: "Two studies of patients at coronary car units showed that those who were prayed for recovered earlier than those who weren't prayed for, even though they had no idea that anyone was praying for them." -- source: "Healing Power of Faith" Readers Digest British edition Sept 2002 So how do you explain stuff like that? That is more than "all in your mind", it is showing an impact on the physical and physiological level. Also do you ever get to have darshan of Deities and do seva for a temple? In Hinduism the Deities are like psychologists. You bring your problems before Them and They radiate healing vibrations to you from the inner worlds. In addition to Deity darshan there are havana/ homa yajna which provide psychological healing to those who witness them and sponsor them and who are the stated recipients of the healing energy. Also a Jyotish could look at your chart and tell you what mantras to be doing for this period in your life and could explain why you are feeling down in the dumps, in addition to pointing out for you when it will probably subside. So in Hindusim we have all of these things besides mantras to use to heal ourselves from depression: the Deities, the Temple, seva, havanas, and jyotish. And that does not even begin to address pilgrimmage, parikrama, and hearing of hari-katha, and proper diet and exercise and Ayur-Vedic herbs. For example, in a recent interview with Hinduism Today magazine, Hindu of the Year 2006 Sri Bhai Ramesh Oza explains how he uses kathas of Hindu literature such as Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana, and Srimad Bhagavatam as a type of story-telling therapy to heal people from depression. As far as Ayur-Veda and healing goes, in many countries such as New Zealand, there are now fully accredited Ayur Vedic colleges. These are all Hindu concepts based on scientific principles involving scientific study. All of these many things were given to the world by a loving God to help the soul in every possible way to move towards Him. "When I read the Bhagavad Gita I ask myself how God created the universe. Everything else seems superfluous." -- Albert Einstein. Even now the way science is going, the latest research on the universe and the nature of reality looks more like the Hindu model than any other theoretical template proposed by any other culture or religion. So can one billion Hindus really be wrong? In conclusion, keep on trying a wide variety of different therapies from Vedic culture given to us by a loving God to help us in every possible way, from the most gross material level to the topmost spiritual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Well, I see some interest in harerama's questions here, but harerama seems to have lost interest. Perhaps he or she was merely complaining. In any event, I have expressed the parameters of my interest in the question. I'm not interested in discussing the authenticity of meditation in general, or in discussing vague ideas about chanting. If harerama actually has some interest in understanding whether and how we can tell if we're getting any benefit from chanting, rather than just asserting that he believes the scientists' claims that everything can be explained empirically, we may have something to discuss. Otherwise, this thread will die naturally, just as harerama seems to think God already has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 There is this verse from the Bhagavatam that has helped me keep going many many times. Can't remember exactly where it is but it stated that rather one was filled with material desires, or impersonalist goals or if one wanted to awaken love for Krsna one should chant the Hare Krsna mantra. I am sure it is a commonly known verse and perhaps someone can post it. So chant for the pyschological benefits but keep an open mind to the transcendental side. It just may open up for you and if not then you have the psychological benefits at least. The mind on its own can never grasp the revelations of God. It can however switch back and forth from belief to doubt and whipsaw us in the process. Ask Krsna if He is real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 akamah sarva-kamo va moksa-kama udara-dhih tivrena bhakti-yogena yajeta purusam param A person who has broader intelligence, whether he be full of all material desire, without any material desire, or desiring liberation, must by all means worship the supreme whole, the Personality of Godhead. SB 2.3.10 However, chanting the mahamantra is not meant for any end other than love for Krishna. Chanting for any other end is nama-aparadha. Now, chanting nama-aparadha may help one attain material goals, but it is the antithesis of chanting the holy name. The pure holy name is Krishna Himself, and we should chant with a mind to engaging ourselves in His service, not engaging Him in ours. Anyone who wants to know what chanting the mahamantra is about needs to do so under the guidance of advanced devotees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wignaraj6279 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Hi, I am 27, I was diagnosed with Bi-Polar 6 years ago. I am very fanatical about God. I have had very intense dreams and seeing things. I have trouble sleeping when I am stressed. I also have very active imagination and photographic memory. My first experience is that I felt a strange buzz in my forehead like pressure in the centre, this is intense when I go to sleep and whenever I feel like ''high''. I always pray in the shower to God, one day I had opened my eyes and I imagined that in my eye ball is the vast cosmic ocean and I imagined Maha Vishnu sleeping on the Great Nagarajah. I saw a bluish-purple light in the corner of my right eye, I was scared at first but, I felt happy, I thought I saw God. Second experience, when I pray with my eyes open in front of the pooja room, all holy pictures of the Hindu deities, their eyes blink and mouths move as if they are talking or smiling. When I close my eyes, I see red light on the side of my right eye and blue light on the side of left eye. When I woke from a dream, my eyes were still closed, but I saw warm golden sun like light around the edge of my eye lids. Third experience, when I say mantras like OM Maha Vishnu Namaya in the shower, I can hear people's chants of OM Maha Luxmi Namaya. Today I prayed with OM Kalki Durgai Saranam and I heard people repeat the chant while I was praying in the shower. Fourth experiences, I have been lately having God related dreams, of which two had made me wonder whether it was sign from God When I got depressed about things happening in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>Sri Lanka</st1:place></st1:country-region> and with my relatives living there. The second dream occurred after I dreamed the 1<SUP>st</SUP> dream on the same night. In the 1<SUP>st</SUP> dream, I am walking to a store or a house, as I walk through the door I see my reflection as a magical short dwarf, with a long curved nose, droopy ears and wearing gypsy clothes. I opened the door and find three wizards fighting gargoyles, suddenly the gargoyles come to attack me one by one, I seem to know each magical spell and destroy all 3 of the gargoyle, after which the wizards smile at me. Suddenly I find myself flying through into a tunnel and fly through to a sandy land. I see a lot of children and people flying. I see a black gypsy woman chanting something on a drawn square on sand with four equilateral triangles with lamps lit on the four corners. When I land next to her, she disappeared and I see that each corner has four symbols, a thick circle like a ring, the female sex symbol and the <st1:place>OM</st1:place>, but I forget to notice the fourth. When I see the <st1:place>OM</st1:place>, I face North East of the symbol and with each hand, draw the trident shape into the sand and moved backwards each time with a new linking one, I stop after I reach the end of the land. With the circle I draw a triangle and a pentagram. With the female sex symbol I draw the male and tri-sex symbol. The black woman appeared, when I was drew the tri-sex symbol and saying that why should this fit here and she smiled. Suddenly I realise the fourth, is very important to work out the truth about God, but in my excitement I wake up not knowing the fourth. The dream kept awake for a while, because I was thinking about it, I can not link the symbols together, but it felt good like I was closer to power. I went back to sleep. I am visiting an old school building, and I sit among other unknown people, suddenly a man arrives and argues with me that I should not just have sat down just because other people sat down there. He said you should ask before you sit down and walks away angry. I then see him sit among other people in a different place but still in the old school, I calmly walk to him and tell him that I would not have sit down if someone told me in the first place. As I tell him this, I see him smile and he turned into an old Chinese clock like being with a very round face and long whiskers, he gives me a token. I try to read it but I could not understand it. Suddenly I meet a Native American who comes to me and tells me to follow him. He shows me the land surrounding the school. When I look at the ground, it is like a see through glass, I see souls of many dead people praying with their heads bowing down to the ground and kneeling down. The souls closer to me had their hands on the ground as they prayers, Then the second layer of souls after them were touching the feet of the first layer of souls. They were everywhere stretching as far as I can see, but at the end of the land, I see skulls of cattle. The Native American says that when everyone dies, they become part of Mother Earth, each being are connected with their prayer which links them together to the life force of Mother Earth. The Native American says that because of my answer, I have been chosen to show the world the real way to pray. That as one person prays to God, another person should touch the feet of the first person and pray what the first is praying, until there is a chain of people all linking the same prayer of peace to the first. So that all the auras of the praying would go to the first and therefore the first would have the powerful prayer of the many going to God. So that God can receive concentrated Shakti of one human and not have to listen to everyone. The Native American said rather than the dead souls follow this, now the living should also follow this to stop the evil spreading in the world. Therefore all of us pray as one and not separately. Understanding this I trust him and place both my hands on the head of one soul in the ground in front of me and I prayed for peace and goodness. I am alone and I suddenly appear in a Durga temple, there are Hindu devotees and I am showing many of about this unselfish. There is an old woman with her granddaughter, the old woman is praying with her whole body on the floor. The girl asks me how she can pray with her grandmother, I tell her to touch her grandmother’s feet. As I say this various still images of people magically appear in the temple, these images showed various Classical Indian dance poses (Bharata Natyam) and different positions of prayers facing God such as bowing to the floor, praying with hands together, I realise they are all forms of prayers resulting with same power to go God. I hear the Native American tell me that mantras are not the only way to pray but all different poses of every nature in all the Hindu cultures must be concentrated in one place in order to achieve the strongest prayer of Good to God, he tells me this would bring peace to the world. As all should only thinking about peace for the world and not thinking about themselves anymore. They should trust God and understand it is us by thinking selfish things for our self, we forget that we are living on Earth and one human affects the world by all the connections they make as they lives and their children’s life. I wake up excited to tell someone, but realised it was a dream. Yesterday I have worked out my dream, the pentagram as the four directions and the fifth direction (Northeast) is the electromagnetic energy of Mother Earth, they directions also represent fire, water, air, earth and soul. The circle is for protecting you, while you pray and also represents unity with God, the equilateral triangle represents the fusion of mind, body, and spirit as the Trinity of Shaktis. The fourth symbol is infinity. I imagine that all the sun and the nine planets are Shaktis, they fuse together and become Kalki Durga. Kalki is the soul of a human who suffered mentally by the bad things of the world, fusing his energy with Durga and calling her to come to Earth and stop the bad things happening. Am I having a spiritual guidance from God or is it just imagination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srimanta Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Hi,I am 27, I was diagnosed with Bi-Polar 6 years ago. I am very fanatical about God. I have had very intense dreams and seeing things. I have trouble sleeping when I am stressed. I also have very active imagination and photographic memory. My first experience is that I felt a strange buzz in my forehead like pressure in the centre, this is intense when I go to sleep and whenever I feel like ''high''. I always pray in the shower to God, one day I had opened my eyes and I imagined that in my eye ball is the vast cosmic ocean and I imagined Maha Vishnu sleeping on the Great Nagarajah. I saw a bluish-purple light in the corner of my right eye, I was scared at first but, I felt happy, I thought I saw God. Second experience, when I pray with my eyes open in front of the pooja room, all holy pictures of the Hindu deities, their eyes blink and mouths move as if they are talking or smiling. When I close my eyes, I see red light on the side of my right eye and blue light on the side of left eye. When I woke from a dream, my eyes were still closed, but I saw warm golden sun like light around the edge of my eye lids. Third experience, when I say mantras like OM Maha Vishnu Namaya in the shower, I can hear people's chants of OM Maha Luxmi Namaya. Today I prayed with OM Kalki Durgai Saranam and I heard people repeat the chant while I was praying in the shower. Fourth experiences, I have been lately having God related dreams, of which two had made me wonder whether it was sign from God When I got depressed about things happening in ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com In the 1<SUP>st</SUP> dream, I am walking to a store or a house, as I walk through the door I see my reflection as a magical short dwarf, with a long curved nose, droopy ears and wearing gypsy clothes. I opened the door and find three wizards fighting gargoyles, suddenly the gargoyles come to attack me one by one, I seem to know each magical spell and destroy all 3 of the gargoyle, after which the wizards smile at me. Suddenly I find myself flying through into a tunnel and fly through to a sandy land. I see a lot of children and people flying. I see a black gypsy woman chanting something on a drawn square on sand with four equilateral triangles with lamps lit on the four corners. When I land next to her, she disappeared and I see that each corner has four symbols, a thick circle like a ring, the female sex symbol and the <st1:place>OM</st1:place>, but I forget to notice the fourth. When I see the <st1:place>OM</st1:place>, I face North East of the symbol and with each hand, draw the trident shape into the sand and moved backwards each time with a new linking one, I stop after I reach the end of the land. With the circle I draw a triangle and a pentagram. With the female sex symbol I draw the male and tri-sex symbol. The black woman appeared, when I was drew the tri-sex symbol and saying that why should this fit here and she smiled. Suddenly I realise the fourth, is very important to work out the truth about God, but in my excitement I wake up not knowing the fourth. The dream kept awake for a while, because I was thinking about it, I can not link the symbols together, but it felt good like I was closer to power. I went back to sleep. I am visiting an old school building, and I sit among other unknown people, suddenly a man arrives and argues with me that I should not just have sat down just because other people sat down there. He said you should ask before you sit down and walks away angry. I then see him sit among other people in a different place but still in the old school, I calmly walk to him and tell him that I would not have sit down if someone told me in the first place. As I tell him this, I see him smile and he turned into an old Chinese clock like being with a very round face and long whiskers, he gives me a token. I try to read it but I could not understand it. Suddenly I meet a Native American who comes to me and tells me to follow him. He shows me the land surrounding the school. When I look at the ground, it is like a see through glass, I see souls of many dead people praying with their heads bowing down to the ground and kneeling down. The souls closer to me had their hands on the ground as they prayers, Then the second layer of souls after them were touching the feet of the first layer of souls. They were everywhere stretching as far as I can see, but at the end of the land, I see skulls of cattle. The Native American says that when everyone dies, they become part of Mother Earth, each being are connected with their prayer which links them together to the life force of Mother Earth. The Native American says that because of my answer, I have been chosen to show the world the real way to pray. That as one person prays to God, another person should touch the feet of the first person and pray what the first is praying, until there is a chain of people all linking the same prayer of peace to the first. So that all the auras of the praying would go to the first and therefore the first would have the powerful prayer of the many going to God. So that God can receive concentrated Shakti of one human and not have to listen to everyone. The Native American said rather than the dead souls follow this, now the living should also follow this to stop the evil spreading in the world. Therefore all of us pray as one and not separately. Understanding this I trust him and place both my hands on the head of one soul in the ground in front of me and I prayed for peace and goodness. I am alone and I suddenly appear in a Durga temple, there are Hindu devotees and I am showing many of about this unselfish. There is an old woman with her granddaughter, the old woman is praying with her whole body on the floor. The girl asks me how she can pray with her grandmother, I tell her to touch her grandmother’s feet. As I say this various still images of people magically appear in the temple, these images showed various Classical Indian dance poses (Bharata Natyam) and different positions of prayers facing God such as bowing to the floor, praying with hands together, I realise they are all forms of prayers resulting with same power to go God. I hear the Native American tell me that mantras are not the only way to pray but all different poses of every nature in all the Hindu cultures must be concentrated in one place in order to achieve the strongest prayer of Good to God, he tells me this would bring peace to the world. As all should only thinking about peace for the world and not thinking about themselves anymore. They should trust God and understand it is us by thinking selfish things for our self, we forget that we are living on Earth and one human affects the world by all the connections they make as they lives and their children’s life. I wake up excited to tell someone, but realised it was a dream. Yesterday I have worked out my dream, the pentagram as the four directions and the fifth direction (Northeast) is the electromagnetic energy of Mother Earth, they directions also represent fire, water, air, earth and soul. The circle is for protecting you, while you pray and also represents unity with God, the equilateral triangle represents the fusion of mind, body, and spirit as the Trinity of Shaktis. The fourth symbol is infinity. I imagine that all the sun and the nine planets are Shaktis, they fuse together and become Kalki Durga. Kalki is the soul of a human who suffered mentally by the bad things of the world, fusing his energy with Durga and calling her to come to Earth and stop the bad things happening. Am I having a spiritual guidance from God or is it just imagination? To come out from this influence of Maya, pray to Krsna. Krsna Bhakta Sarvottama Sarva Juge Sarvopari Krsna Shakti Brihat Rupam Hare Krsna Hara Hari Devotees of Krsna are only superior devotees of Lord and in every era they are always supreme it is proved. Energy of Krsna is only infinite and whole. Hare Krsna is combined energy of Hara and Hari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 akamah sarva-kamo va moksa-kama udara-dhih tivrena bhakti-yogena yajeta purusam param A person who has broader intelligence, whether he be full of all material desire, without any material desire, or desiring liberation, must by all means worship the supreme whole, the Personality of Godhead. SB 2.3.10 However, chanting the mahamantra is not meant for any end other than love for Krishna. Chanting for any other end is nama-aparadha. Now, chanting nama-aparadha may help one attain material goals, but it is the antithesis of chanting the holy name. The pure holy name is Krishna Himself, and we should chant with a mind to engaging ourselves in His service, not engaging Him in ours. Anyone who wants to know what chanting the mahamantra is about needs to do so under the guidance of advanced devotees Yes that is the verse. I remembered it as Hare Krsna but it is actually worship. In all circumstances one should approach the Supreme Lord. Of course chanting Hare krsna should be pure and without personal separtist desires. But that doesn't mean one should not chant Hare Krsna even while in the conditional stage. Otherwise who here could chant? Chanting in the offensive stage leads to chanting in the clearing stage and from there to the perfect stage. No one should feel they cannot call on the name of the Lord in any and all circumstances and further everyone should be encouraged to chant the names of the Lord regardless of our fallen condition, with doubts or without doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sridas Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Meditation: how do you know benefits are really spiritual and not mere psychology? <HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1> Check out the mirror occasionally. Is your heart tasting the sweetness of nectar or your tongue just dried up saliva? Do you repeat the Holy Names mechanicly or with spontaneous effection, after thirty years of diligent practice? Now honestly did you follow the directions given by the spiritual master? How regularly do you have Akkk attacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harerama Posted October 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Just what effects do you expect from chanting the Hare Krishna mahamantra? Maybe that's where we should begin our discussion: what effects we do expect, what effects we should expect, how to approach chanting, and what conditions may impede our experiencing the full effects of chanting. If you're interested in such discussion, let's start, if you don't mind, with what effects you expect? A sense of peace for one. A sense that Krsna is watching over me, maybe revealing Himself to me bit by bit, if not all at once. That is what I expected from chanting the Hare Krsna mantra. I was chanting it every time I could possibly remember to for a couple of weeks (around the time when I first posted this topic), even if I wasn't sitting (pretty much every moment of that week). I also chant one round of the Gayatri mantra everyday (still do that). I started this practice of chanting the Gayatri mantra three or four years ago, in an effort to purify myself, and to improve my situation. I had been severely depressed for so long, and I tried to take action by meditating on God and chanting the Gayatri Mantra. I was told by a jyotish I was having some astrological problems, with Sani's influence on me for three years and I'd start having good things happen to me. Those 3 years are over, since the passing of last year. I've had a few experiences before those 3 years was over, that I'm not sure were experiences since then. The doubt re: these experiences being authentic has also contributed to my depression.My mental state is still very agitated. I hadn't responded till now, because I felt like I needed some sort of a break from thinking about it, but there's no real respite. I was near the tipping point, actually I still am, but I lost courage after creating this topic. I found my courage again (or maybe just desperation) at least to update my position on how things are going and to be honest enough about my situation. I also wanted to wait until there was a sizeable spectrum of ideas concerning my situation before I responded, and I wanted to wait for the results of my professional endeavours to come through before I resumed discussion. I just am recovering from a further bad case of depression as I've experienced failure once again in trying to pursue a professional career. I got my results, and they were what I expected (I'll say why I expected these results soon enough). My problem is very serious, as it seems until I get some peace of mind re: God's presence and his interest in me, until I find out what I am here to do, I cannot seem to focus on doing the things that are put in front of me. The very basic things that I need to do, I can't seem to do them. I've tried praying to God time and time again for guidance, but He doesn't seem to be listening to me. I'm lost, trying to find myself, trying to know my own abilities (which I have lost faith in, as well as faith in God), and trying to understand what God wants from me. My mind keeps thinking about destiny, God, and what I am here to do. I tried putting all those thoughts aside to do what I needed to do which was to study for a test, but I just couldn't seem to do it. There were periods where I felt depression suffocate me during my preparation for my exam, and I'd stop looking at books for a long time (unwisely, since I was taking a very tough exam and time was already running out). I still knew my information really well despite all that, and in practice exams I was doing pretty well and they were actually harder than the actual exam. In any case, the day of the exam came, and I prayed to God, bowed at the feet of my parents to obtain their blessings, etc. and went to take the exam. Unfortunately, I was so mentally fatigued by that time I couldn't think straight. All my preparation came to naught, and I scored the worst I have ever scored on that exam. I took several sample exams before that day, and the lowest I ever scored, even without knowing any of the material, was still higher than the score I got on the actual day of the test. Needless to say, my confidence which was already low at that point was shattered completely. I actually had the option to cancel my scores before the test was graded on that day when I took the test. I knew the test wasn't going well, and I prayed to God for guidance. I even asked my brother for guidance, and unfortunately, as I suspected, I got the wrong advice as my results were as bad as I feared. I've been so depressed ever since, not knowing where I'm going in life. I'm getting older, and there just seems to be no way out. I have great ambition, but I believe in having a firm foundation of confidence in myself and God before striving for better things or else all I'll ever encounter is failure. These are the most recent events in my life. I admit I am frustrated with God, I wish I could stop bothering about a God that doesn't seem to care a bit about me, but I still can't do that no matter how much I want to. I still chant the Gayatri mantra in the hopes that things will make a marked improvement soon, that God will reveal Himself to me in some way when He sees my persistence. When I used to have a huge letdown by God, I would stop meditating for a long time, trying to recover and then I'd end up going back to meditating in the end. I felt like maybe God was testing me to see whether I gave up on Him too easily, and so I'm trying to fight through this by continually chanting even though I am suffering from a severe case of depression, and I've suffered a huge letdown by God once again. As far as my experiences go, I had a few that at the time seemed like God was reassuring me in some way. 3-4 years ago, I went to India, and at that time I was angry at everyone and everything including God. I was lost then too, and I was depressed, but at that time I had no faith, no hope for anything. I had to attend college when I came back from my vacation in India, and a week before my return home, I accidentally angered some chakkas who were making the rounds in begging for alms when I was in a taxi with my mom, brother and my cousin. I accidentally hit the glass of the window when I waved them to go on instead of begging at the taxi I was in. They got angry and forced the traffic to stop and I guess they tried putting a curse on me or something (not really sure I believe in this stuff, I didn't believe in it 3-4 years ago that's for sure). A couple of days later, I came down with the worst headache I've ever had (and I've had some nasty headaches). This was 10 times worse, and my parents were really worried about me. I'd vomit food as soon as I had ingested it, my eyes would hurt, I would be laying in bed all night writhing in pain and counting the minutes till dawn while everyone else was asleep. My parents thought I might have to go to the hospital because I might have had encephalitis or something, meaning I'd have to stay in India longer. After 4 days straight though of pure torture, I finally got better. My aunt and uncle gave me a silver ring with a white stone on it to wear, for some reason which I suspect had to do with astrology. I don't think I've been quite the same since though. I returned home, tried to register for classes in college (got in a few classes I wanted but not in others because they were full already). I was really sick at the time, and I actually had a prolonged time of illness that was interfering with my ability to study. I was falling behind in my studies so I thought it best to just drop out of the classes and just attend school for the next semester when I hopefully would be better (took me a LONG time for me to get better, I think by the summer I finally started getting better, and I had come back from India in January). When I tried to return to school I couldn't because I didn't officially announce I was taking a leave of absence from the school (didn't know about this rule), and I had to possibly re-apply to college. I thought to myself if that were the case I might just drop out altogether and forget it (I was already very depressed as I've told you). In any case, somehow the advisor for the department in which I major left the spring of that year (the semester I skipped), and before she left she cleared all students who were majoring in that department for registration for the fall (the semester I was trying to register for). So I got in, without too much hassle. I felt this was an act of God, but I have no clue as to the purpose behind it. I still encountered difficulties later on, and I then started chanting the Gayatri mantra in the following year. A year and half ago, I started getting into the habit of chanting the Hare Krsna mantra while driving to school. One day, when I was driving to school, on the day I had a test, I was chanting the Hare Krsna mantra, and somehow I lost consciousness and my car rear-ended with another, and I found myself in an accident. I was so depressed with this incident, and while fortunately nobody was seriously injured, I was really shaken by the incident. I got to class in time to take my test, and I did alright considering the circumstances. But the next few weeks I hung about in depression. Another incident happened to me on the way back from college, when I took the subway home. My train, that I usually go on, malfunctioned so I couldn't take it when I went to the subway platform. Trails of smoke came from that track and I had to take another train to get back home. I started asking some other people about what other trains there was and I asked this guy who was Indian of origin who turned out (so he claimed) to be a swami. We were talking a bit, and he said he ran an ashram in Hardwar for orphaned children in the Bhuj earthquake. He showed me pictures of the ashram. I listened to him, but I was really depressed at the time and I just wanted to get home. I still took the time to talk to him and then he claims he saw my face, and said I was going to be a great man. He told me I was really generous, but I was really lazy right now but will soon work like a tiger. He said right now my health was really shaky (it was, I had no idea what was wrong with me but I'd have migraine headaches with eye pain, and I'd have other nonspecific problems), as well as depressed. He told me not to lose hope, that in a year I'd find a good job and help a lot of people. At the time, I was awestruck (I guess I'm very gullible and want so desperately for God to pay attention to me and help me out and guide me that I get taken in easily). While a lot of what he said was right, what he said about my future was wrong. He kept asking me if I believed in God, Shiva, Krishna, etc. And I said yes, and he said God would help me, not to lose faith, that in a year things will start turning out great for me (I had this same kind of statement from the jyotish, so that was a reason to think this was authentic). He gave me a red Hanuman pendant, asked me if I would help his ashram with a donation, I gave him $5, and I just thanked him profusely, thinking he was a messenger of God to help me overcome my depression. For a while it worked, but things were still not improving for me, and I had stronger doubts as time went by of my perception of things, maybe I was being conned instead of having a spiritual experience. I had some doubts even after I left the swami, but I tried to brush them away, because I read of such things happening in books about yogis and folk tales and stuff. I just tried to brush away my cynical nature, but I think my cynical nature was right, especially since nothing has changed for me. I graduated from college, then tried to enter medicine and prepared for the medical entrance exam during the summer, after a year off from college, and I'm here now. There was another experience I had in the beginning of the year, before I began studying for my medical entrance exam (which I obviously did poorly on the actual day). I went to India, was going to go to Thirupati and Ambaji. I got sick on the week of going to Ambaji. So did my dad and brother. I still went to Ambaji, and I even got to dress as a priest and make offerings to Amba ma in the temple along with the jyotish who was well known there (he's a brahmin who our family knows very well). Our trip back from Ambaji was hell though. We went by train and came by train. The return by train was a nightmare. We went in an AC compartment, and the train itself was delayed several hours before my mom, myself, my aunt and uncle, and the jyotish boarded the train. We waited on the railroad station for several hours and it was rather cold. Anyway, the train came, and the AC compartment was infested with cockroaches (a nightmare for me). The AC was off so cockroaches were roaming all over the place. I tried to go to sleep but I couldn't, and just stood for the entire 13 hours just looking at cockroaches scatter back and forth. I developed a migraine headache, met a psychiatrist there and we got to talking. He seemed to be impressed with my intelligence and the way I talked, and that was a bit of a confidence booster for me. He also advised me to take some migraine medication which might help my migraines which are often an obstacle to my studying. As for my internal experiences: At first, I felt like chanting the Gayatri mantra was helping, but I think that was more a product of hope than actual effect, as I no longer feel anything now. I used to get so involved in chanting, and I'd feel pressure on my forehead, like my brain was expanding or something, like something was ready to "open", or something was going to happen. I liked that feeling, I was hoping that something indeed was going to happen, but nothing has happened since. I had moments where I'd notice blue waves appear and recede behind my closed eyelids, various spots of color, sometimes red, sometimes green, sometimes blue. That's about all, though, and nothing any further unfortunately. I'm still chanting the Gayatri mantra despite all my depression, and I feel like I have no choice but to chant, hoping that something changes in me, hoping that God reveals Himself to me, and provides guidance to me, because right now I'm incapable of any progress otherwise. As I've stated my confidence in myself is completely shattered, and I need God to show the way as I'm at a loss as what to do next. I could study harder and take the test again, but I need that stability of mind in order to do it and right now I've found that I lack that. And I'm not even sure if that's what I'm supposed to be doing. Honestly, it would be so much easier if I actually had a genuine interest in anything, but in this mire of depression nothing in the world really appeals to me right now. I'm hoping God can change that, show me something, give me hope, etc. so I can keep on going. That's why I keep chanting the Gayatri mantra, despite my lack of faith in it. It's the last vestige of hope I have left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sridas Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Dear Harerama, Kindly accept my respects, Hope does spring eternal, even though it too appears to dry up, turning our life into a barron desert, with nothing but mirages of oasis that merely disolve into more of the same old sand, and nothingness. I'm no psychiatrist but i can relate to a number of issues you are facing here, your dilemna appears to be that of many devotees and aspirants on the spiritual journey. Sraddha is a subtle and delicate substance, but my gurudev would say it's the fundamental foundation of our life from the basics all the way to our eternal serving swarup, Sraddha devi.... Faith will direct us to our lifes destinations and stear us thru the different adversities time may place upon us. Like the example of Queen Kunti devi the more intense the difficulty, the deeper the opportunity for our faith to flourish to full capacity. There's no use being in a grass shack in a hurricane. We are to try to count the tempestuous forces as friendly, pushing us to higher ground, better company, and stronger resolve. I can sympathize with your migraine attacks, in my younger days I too suffered from this horrid condition for many years. I eventually de-toxed, put my finger on a number of impeding habits. Eliminated them from my diet and had one session of electric accupuncture in Hawaii, and somehow it re-established the currant to my central nervous system, never to experience another attack for the past 30 years. It definately takes a lot of pressure from many other areas in ones life. You never know it may also work for you even tho we all have different constitutions. It was nothing short of miraculous for me because I know these blockages can squeeze us into a very black and limited space.... feeling much like the inverse experience of liberation. When I reflect in retrospect i think I was doing a lot of naughty things in my past youth that may have caused such a condition. I also practiced different forms of Yoga, Kundalini included, which may not have helped, if not monitored carefully even with an experienced guide that sort of energy is to be utilized with Xtreme care and caution. Devotees practicing bhakti will naturally reap the benefits of all other yoga systems like watering the root of the tree. Krsna will endour us with what we need to do the nessacary, we can't squeeze an experience out, rather His reverlations come as a divine and gracious gift from divinity. I've found over the course of my meagre devotional life, that the very greatest fullfillment comes thru doing some tangible seva to His beloved servitors, nothing even comes anywhere close on the richter scale of contentment and sustained happiness. It's a pure gold investment. If we can somehow connect to and engage in the pleasing potency of a real Radha dasyam servitor then automaticly the reservoir of pure pleasure will flow back to us, and if we are fortunate enough to read and practice the will of such a servitor, who is non-different from that of the original cause of causes Sri Govinda, then all success is virtually guaranteed, and that initial faith will fully bloom into the ripened fruit of ruchi... nista ... asakti... bhav and ultimately prema. It all exists, it's not a fabrication and if we can find the right association that doesn't tamper with theprocess that has been given from the genuine agents of divinity or manipulated to invent some concocted version of the Truth, then we will get confirmation that yes! What I am searching for is real. It's all in the currant we connect too. There's around six billion opinions out there at present, and amongst them there may be a few very rare souls who's purity will have this whole jungle of misconception in perspective. It's the rarest of the rare. So if we are to pursue this Krsna conception a starting point is to accept the chalenge He lays down as in the Gita where he states manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye yatatam api siddhanam kascin mam vetti tattvatah Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth. Or brahmananam sahasrebhyam satrayaji visisate satrayaji-sahasrebhyam sarvavedanta-paragam sarva-vedanta-vit-kotya visnu-bhakto visisyate vaisnavanam sahasrebhyam ekantyeko visisyate Out of many thousands of brahmanas, one who performs sacrifice for Visnu is best. Out of thousands of such yaj-ika-brahmanas, one who knows the meaning of Vedanta is best. Out of millions of those who know the meaning of Vedanta, a devotee of Visnu is best. And out of thousands of Visnu-bhaktas, one who is an unalloyed devotee of Visnu is the best. (Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, 10.117, and Bhakti-Sandarbha, 117) Then there is this rajobhim samasamkhyatam parthivair-iha jantavam tesam ye kecanehante sreyo vai manujadayam prayo mumuksavastesam kecaneiva dvijottama mumuksanam sahasresu kascin mucyeta sidhyati muktanam api siddhanam narayana-parayanam sudurlabham prasantatma kotisvapi mahamune In this material world, there are as many living entities as there are atoms. Among these living entities, few are human beings, and among them, few are interested in following religious principles. Among those who follow religious principles, only a few desire liberation from the material world. Among thousands of those who wish for liberation, one may actually achieve it, giving up material attachments to society, friendship, love, country, home, wife, and children. And among many thousands of such liberated persons, one who can understand the true meaning of liberation is very rare. Out of millions of perfected and liberated souls, one may be a devotee of Krsna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.14.3 - 5) So soldier on to become one such rare soul, if it's possible for one soul we are all ultimately no less potential candidates to go all the way. 'Faint heart never won fair Krsna', as Prabhupad said nothing is impossible. I know many may argue against this and there are no doubt exceptions. But as i understand with Gayatri, Hari Nam or any mantra much depends on the giver and receiver as to the conception and potency of the seed that is planted at the time of diksa. To receive the Truth personified one must approach a saint who knows the Truth personally to introduce us to Reality the Beautiful. It's a heart to heart- soul to soul affair. And actually the activating potency once again is in serving the servant of the servant that bestows such a sacred gift upon us, this is the system that empowers our breath, our recitation, our activities, our desire to give what we have received, our increase in Vaisnava seva, our compassion for the suffering animation, everything. Hari Nam and Gayatri are an induction into the eternal heart of guru's and Krsna's consciousness. Sometimes the darkest hours are before dawn but they can also be the most auspicious to motivate us out of our lethargy and apparent hoplessness. At present the whole world is hoping for positive and progressive change, like waiting for the sun to come, the atmosphere is apprehensive and pensive, so you definately arn't alone. Like a pervasive cloud over our collective consciousness the material energy is pulling every trick out of the book. But simultaneously if we can be instrumental in helping the Holy Names into the collective consciousness of the environment then the rays of Sri Sri Nitai Gauranga will illuminate the face of the earth. Jaya Satchinandana Gaura Hari. They've come along way from Sri Mayapur to dance thru the streets of the western world in their Names spreading joy, inviting everyone to join Their campaign, so let us endeavour to assist in their movement. Excuse the long winded rely but perhaps i was a little insensitive in my last post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitai16108 Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Hare Krishna All glories to Srila Prabhupad Please recite the verse very carefully and understand what srila prabhupad has explained in this verse purport and translation. Chapter 4 Transcendental knowledge Text 40 ajñas casraddadhanas ca samsayatma vinasyati nayam loko 'sti na paro na sukham samsayatmanah SYNONYMS ajñas — a fool who has no knowledge in standard scriptures; ca — and; asraddadhanas — without faith in revealed scriptures; ca — also; samsaya — of doubts; atma — a person; vinasyati — falls back; na — never; ayam — in this; lokah — world; asti — there is; na — nor; parah — in the next life; na — not; sukham — happiness; samsaya — doubtful; atmanah — of the person. TRANSLATION But ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God consciousness; they fall down. For the doubting soul there is happiness neither in this world nor in the next. PURPORT Out of many standard and authoritative revealed scriptures, the Bhagavad-gita is the best. Persons who are almost like animals have no faith in, or knowledge of, the standard revealed scriptures; and some, even though they have knowledge of, or can cite passages from, the revealed scriptures, have actually no faith in these words. And even though others may have faith in scriptures like Bhagavad-gita, they do not believe in or worship the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. Such persons cannot have any standing in Krsna consciousness. They fall down. Out of all the above-mentioned persons, those who have no faith and are always doubtful make no progress at all. Men without faith in God and His revealed word find no good in this world, nor in the next. For them there is no happiness whatsoever. One should therefore follow the principles of revealed scriptures with faith and thereby be raised to the platform of knowledge. Only this knowledge will help one become promoted to the transcendental platform of spiritual understanding. In other words, doubtful persons have no status whatsoever in spiritual emancipation. One should therefore follow in the footsteps of great acaryas who are in the disciplic succession and thereby attain success. So here the important thing is that Lord Krishna is absolute whole who is always transcendental. and there is no difference between krishna and krishna's body, prasadam, words, garlands etc... so if you are doubting about the effects of rendering devotional service is also which is transcendental that means you are doubting Krsna ? Please be aware that you are lack of vaishnava association get some good association which can give you more faith and read carefully Prabhupad books so that you can understand the truth and duty as a soul.and try to "asat sangat tyaga" leave the association of persons who are materialistic people and also dont even try to associate with mayavadis and athiests. Sri krishna chaitanya mahaprabhu has said that mayavadibhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa: simply by hearing the Mayavada interpretation of the sastras, one is doomed." (CC Adi 17.53). Its very rare to Krishna conciousness so dont try to leave out of this sankirtan movement at any cost.Chant in mood of surrender so that you can get rid of thi asat krishna. Hare Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadadhara das Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 What you have told here reminds me of my own experience 10 years ago. At one point I felt like spacemen our param-guru, Srila Prabhupada, was laughing about: no matter how far they rise in the sky, they have to come back down again. Finally I realized that it is a kind of addiction - addiction to the suffering. During following years I've seen a lot of people with this addiction. All my life, from childhood I had experienced too many troubles. I didn't know how it is, to live happy, prosperous and satisfied. Now, as soon as everything started to go on smoothly, sadhana OK, etc., I started feeling discomfort! Actually, I didn't know how to live like that. Usually I compare it with the situation of a man coming out of jail after 15 years. He has paid for his crime, but the world has changed and he does not fit in anymore. He knows well how to survive in the jail, but the outside world he doesn't know. As we know, many such people end up in the jail again... Similarly, we have been released from the jail of material existence by the mercy of the Supreme Lord, His devotees and Guru, and by renouncimg the sinful path of life. But the mind starts reeling, disoriented, because it's too unfamiliar to be free. And subconsciously (!) we start seeking the ways how to feel 'normal' again. And some people (I have had a couple patients like that) have this problem to such a degree, that they do not even feel any symptoms of inner peace, freedom, etc., not to speak of real bliss... It is all due to mind's function to provide the psychological stability, the status quo, **however terrible it may be**. As far as my experience goes (myself as well as those people I've treated), usually there is a significant track of psychological traumas, abuse etc. during childhood. Many painful experiences which the person has been unable to digest, so they are buried deep within with the signpost "Mine Field! Keep away!" Unfortunately, it is the place where the path of spiritual advancement goes. We have to change many things within ourselves to advance in spiritual life, but the subconscious part says, "forget it". Too painful. Have you ever been doing physical exercises with a broken leg? OK, don't even try - heal it first. Similarly, in such a situation we should heal our past wounds to become able to advance - and automatically start feeling the benefits of chanting Lord Krishna's name. One will feel it right away. I have described them on my web page on Topcities but I am not yet allowed to post the URLs here, so please write me a private message if you are interested. Or search me on Skype (Gadadhara_Riga). >>I had been severely depressed for so long, Looks like what I said above. >> I was told by a jyotish I was having some astrological problems, (...) I've noticed one problem with astrology: its followers have a danger of starting to believe in influence of planets and demigods - more than influence of Lord Visnu and Guru. Do not forget: this world is made so that we CANNOT escape it! It is a prisonhouse after all. And only by the grace of Supreme Lord and Guru we can get out of it. In one sense, astrology simply denies our free will - and strengthens the belief that we don't have any. More than that: once I talked with a fellow astrologer, and he admitted that most people do not utilize even the possibilities allowed by their horoscope. Why? Due to the same reason: the subconscious part of mind acting to continue making us unhappy. >> The very basic things that I need to do, I can't seem to do them. One curious question. Please type the word "co-dependence" in a web search, then read a couple of good articles about that, and consider if it has any relevance for you? I have also this problem to some degree, and I discovered that MOST people nowadays are co-dependent, which basically means that we are brought up to seek somebody, or something that *forces* us to live in a certain way. As soon as one tries to choose his own path freely... very difficult. So? >> I've tried praying to God time and time again for guidance, but He doesn't seem to be listening to me. Wwoooww! Really? There are very simple and effective ways to prove to you that He really does. If you read about "Open your Heart to the Lord" and "Circle of Prayers" on my page I mentioned already, these techniques are very effective for that, I've worked with several devotees in a heavy depression. The only difficulty may be to find a couple of other devotees interested, and try it. It will be really spectacular! >> I'm lost, trying to find myself, trying to know my own abilities (which I have lost faith in (...) Wasn't it your parents in the childhood too much chastising you for mischief, or for success below *their* expectations? >> as well as faith in God) Yes, usually it is the result - but not the end. And the first thing you should start with is - to learn to accept yourself as you are. When I'm working with others, I use the "Talk to Your Problem" technique (again, it's on my web page). You can just do it by yourself. Read one sentence, then sit back and inspect your feelings you observe when thinking about what was written in the text... then next sentence... If that's difficult for you for any reason, I can help you - call me through Skype. >> and trying to understand what God wants from me. He wants you to be happy. And everybody else, too. >> (...), and the lowest I ever scored, even without knowing any of the material, was still higher than the score I got on the actual day of the test. You will have to change your attitude towards those exams. I had a funny experience during my studies before taking up spiritual life. Once I had an exam in psychology. Since I was quite depressed at that period, I had missed a lot of lectures. Before the test I was desperately cramming the textbooks, and I spent most of the last night reading. At the test I draw the easiest ticket of all: the 4 temperaments! I knew the topic already several years before. Why did I prepare at all for the exam?! But when I came forward, due to stress I could hardly squeak and barely passed the exam... Then, another time I participated in a physics contest. I took it lightly and didn't even bother myself reading and preparing too much. I took the task papers, solved them leisurely... how I was amazed to be called the winner of the contest! I read a similar point about F1 pilot Schumacher, how a day before race he was playing tennis with full concentration. He developed the "I don't care" attitude towrds race and was able to keep a cool head. That's why he was called a man without nerves: nonattachment. But to be nonattached towards worldly achievements, we have to first get rid of those people (usu parents) sitting inside us and telling all the time that we HAVE to do this-and-that at any cost. The best method for that is the NLP technique for "cutting the psychological dependence", which I've not yet posted on web. Interested? >> I knew the test wasn't going well, and I prayed to God for guidance. I even asked my brother for guidance, and unfortunately, as I suspected, I got the wrong advice as my results were as bad as I feared. Just one comment to this point (and all the similar ones): the subconscious part of our mind will **always** take over the conscious part. Why? Simple. Invisible opponents are very difficult to conquer. Special approach (techniques connected to the trance phenomenon) is necessary. Logical, rational methods will not work, since they are blocked by the same mind's defense I wrote at the beginning. >> I've been so depressed ever since, not knowing where I'm going in life. I'm getting older, and there just seems to be no way out. I have great ambition, but I believe in having a firm foundation of confidence in myself and God before striving for better things or else all I'll ever encounter is failure. More or less these were also my problems. That's why I eventually started learning modern psychotherapy. >> I admit I am frustrated with God, I wish I could stop bothering about a God that doesn't seem to care a bit about me Actually, there is no problem about God but - the point that the ancient process, sadhana, elaborated by the Acaryas was created for normal people. Not for crazies like me, you... and 95% of today's people. We need something else, we need therapy before we can really start advancing. I did just a little bit and felt a big difference. >> but I still can't do that no matter how much I want to. I still chant the Gayatri mantra in the hopes that things will make a marked improvement soon, that God will reveal Himself to me in some way when He sees my persistence. Yes, we should go on hope against hope. Sparrows and the ocean. >> I felt like maybe God was testing me to see whether I gave up on Him too easily, and so I'm trying to fight through this by continually chanting even though I am suffering from a severe case of depression... Here is my realization: with the advancement of aliyuga, there will be more and more people with these problems. And now we can join our efforts and work out the methodology to help such people! Just see how the Supreme wants us to learn something very special. >> ... I guess they tried putting a curse on me or something (not really sure I believe in this stuff (...) >> ...This was 10 times worse, and my parents were really worried about me. It is just a proof that you are highly sensitive and have special abilities. Please believe it, since people without special abilities are too dumb to be influenced like this. And... people like you (and me, too) develop health problems real fast as soon as they do something wrong. Microscopes cannot be used for hammering nails. Have you read about the "indigo people"? If not, I recommend. >> One day, when I was driving to school, on the day I had a test, I was chanting the Hare Krsna mantra, and somehow I lost consciousness and my car rear-ended with another, and I found myself in an accident. I was so depressed with this incident, and while fortunately nobody was seriously injured, I was really shaken by the incident. This will improve when you will improve your skills of entering and exiting trance on your own will - again, I've written in my web about the States Of Consciousness. >> ... and then he claims he saw my face, and said I was going to be a great man. He told me I was really generous, but I was really lazy right now but will soon work like a tiger. Just see. Yes, you simply have to remove the basic obstacles within you. >> I had no idea what was wrong with me but I'd have migraine headaches with eye pain, and I'd have other nonspecific problems) These are typical psychosomatic problems. Improve your emotional condition and they will cease. >> I just tried to brush away my cynical nature, but I think my cynical nature was right, especially since nothing has changed for me. Not cynical nature. Again, it's the mind's defense. Any attempts to improve the condition are recognized as dangerous and shot at sight. Fortunately, there is the back door: trance. In my case, Ericssonian hypnotherapy seminars provided a drastic change. Of course there are still problems to solve, but there is a huge difference. >> I used to get so involved in chanting, and I'd feel pressure on my forehead, like my brain was expanding or something, like something was ready to "open", or something was going to happen. (...) I had moments where I'd notice blue waves appear and recede behind my closed eyelids, various spots of color (...) Better not to move in this direction - at least in a weak condition. In the condition described above by you, looks like "advanced" methods might yield some side effects, and some of them may be unwanted. What about simple and harmless mantras, like names of Lord Vishnu? In my own experience, as well as many others, these are the safe, effective and harmless. Anyway, it's up to yourself. All good to you. Hare Krishna. If you have any questions, etc., you are welcome to write me. Or call on Skype. Gadadhara dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prisni dasi Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 The same question goes for chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, doing yoga, etc.? Answers like try it for yourself and you'll know hold no weight, simply because the mind is easily fooled, and that is why science exists: to take us away from illusion and wishful thinking and know reality as it is, God or no God. What if experiential knowledge is merely the product of wishful thinking or wilful delusion? Does it matter? What benefit is supposedly spiritual, instead of psychological? And if you are doing spiritual advancement, but does not know about it, what value does it have? It is like doing something for someone else. I would say that if something brings material result, it is material. Say, better sex-life, higher salary, better physique, more recognition. Then, what is spiritual result? I speak from the viewpoint of a Gaudiya Vaisnava. And there spiritual result is actually a kind of separation of self and body. The body and soul are like bonded together as inseparable, and the spiritual pratices are meant to cause a separation, and to put more weight on the soul and less on the body. The body can ultimately be discarded. So improvements of the body, including mind and intelligence, are not of direct high importance. If the mind is depressed - who cares? Still, the body, as a vehicle for the soul, has to be maintained, so curing bodily problems can be practical for that purpose. But spiritual practices are not intended for that. Supplementary to spiritual practices are practises meant to strengthen the vehicle, the body, the mind and intelligence, to be able to do the spiritual practices. Those supplementary practices are often mixed in, although they are not exactly spiritual. We take the package of practices. Apply them, and if they cure the vehicle, or cause the separation of body and soul, who actually cares what they are, or what western science thinks about them or calls it? Meditation can alse be used only to strengthen the mind, intelligence and the body, but without causing the separation of the body and soul. Then are such practices spiritual? They might make you feel good, though, and for most people living in this world, that is quite important. The goal of spiritual practices for many - liberation, is the total separation of soul and body, so that the self (the soul) can live completely without a body. For Gaudiya Vaisnavas that is only a step on the way, and maybe sometimes not even that, since the body can be retained as a vehicle. But that is another matter from this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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