Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

[Guest guest]

Posted by Yaduraja on Oct 04, 2006:

 

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

You ask:

 

> Is Srila Prabhupada dead and can he no longer change the initiation system

> in ISKCON? Is that your position?

 

No, he is not dead. Please stop talking about orders from Srila Prabhupada

that you know nothing about. This is rascaldom.

 

If you do know about such orders then why have you not presented them after

so many months? This is what leaves your position open to even more ridicule

than poor old Adikarta’s (please see our matrix of defeated challengers on

the home page for details- press the ‘Adikarta’ button).

 

When I ask you for relevant evidence in the form of orders to the GBC

authorising them to change the status quo which you have agreed he

established way back in 1966, you instead offer:

 

1) A conversation (Hassan) with someone who was not a member of the GBC, not

a temple president, not a BBT trustee, not a director, not even a disciple,

not even a follower, but a one-off visitor to the temple who was doing a

college project.

2) A private letter (kirtanananda) to one individual which says nothing

about Srila Prabhupada stopping being the diksa guru for ISKCON, but instead

simply offers advanced notice of a future system of empowerment no-one

disputes (ritviks are also empowered to initiate- but only on Srila

Prabhupada’s behalf).

 

You have not presented any order from Srila Prabhupada to the GBC of any

type, not to speak of anything remotely relevant to point b) of this debate.

 

If you cannot prove your implied, unproven assumption that there is a

countermanding order we do not know about, then we can go to point c). You

seem to recognise this since you now claim you would accept point b) if it

was expanded to the following form:

 

"Amongst all the orders from Srila Prabhupada to the GBC that we (IRM) have

seen and that we have recognized as orders on how initiation was to run

within ISKCON there is no order that Srila Prabhupada should ever stop being

the diksa guru for ISKCON."

 

The above is consistent with point b) as expanded in NCIP, except it should

be clear, as it is in NCIP (the paper I told you from the beginning

explained point b and which you claim you read), that the very body charged

by Srila Prabhupada to manage ISKCON base their authority to initiate ONLY

on orders that exist on folio pre- Nov 14th 1977, and which we give full

consideration to. This is relevant since IF Srila Prabhupada wanted the

system of initiation within ISKCON to change, then the GBC would have to be

authorised to change it. Perhaps instead of point b) I should have posted

the entire NCIP paper!

 

Anyway, to be completely accurate and consistent with NCIP, we would need to

change your re-worded point b) to the following:

 

"Amongst all the orders from Srila Prabhupada to the GBC that we (IRM) have

seen and that we have recognized as orders on how initiation was to run

within ISKCON, and which the GBC agree are the only orders issued to them by

Srila Prabhupada on this matter, there is no order that Srila Prabhupada

should ever stop being the diksa guru for ISKCON."

 

If you agree to the above, which I believe is factually accurate, we can go

on to point c):

 

“Therefore Srila Prabhupada remains the diksa guru for ISKCON.”

 

But be warned, if you agree with my re-worded point b) then the burden of

proof will fall on you to prove there is a RELEVANT order to the GBC that we

missed, since we are not the party proposing a change to the status quo; a

status quo you agree Srila Prabhupada personally established way back in

1966. A status quo that can only change IF the GBC are ordered to change it.

 

You cannot counteract that which is definite (the status quo) with that

which is indefinite (an order no-one knows anything about). at least not on

this forum you can't.

 

Best wishes

YS

Yadu