Guest guest Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Dear Sunder-ji, Pranams. Ch.6 is one of the most beautiful chapters in the Gita and its importance lies in the fact that it is likely the only portion in the entire prasthanatraya which details the methodology of nidhidhyasana or dhyana. The entire chapter deals with nidhidhyasana and its culmination in selfrealization and the fruit of this is (not a timebound trance but) everabiding selfknowledge or in other words jivanmukti. While a detailed and exhaustive discussion on this chapter is not possible even with multiple posts, I can humbly attempt to share my understanding of some key verses of this chapter, so we can understand them in line with this vedantic thought. I shall post along as time permits. The portion of this chapter relevant to this discussion starts in sloka 8. Some bit of this has already been alluded to in the previous chapter and Bhagwan here is continuing that thread only. ___________________________ 6.8 jnana-vijnana-trptatma kuta-stho vijitendriyah yukta ity ucyate yogi sama-lostrasma-kancanah 6.8 A yogi, jnana-vijnana-trpta-atma, whose mind is content with knowledge and realization - jnana is thorough knowledge of things presented by the scriptures, but vijnana is making those things known from the scriptures a part of one's own realization just as they have been presented; he whose mind (atma) has become contented (trpta) with those jnana and vijnana is jnana-vijnana-trpta-atma-; He is unmoved, i.e. he becomes unshakable; for he has subdued the senses. Whoeever answers to this description is integarted; is said to be concentrated. To this Yogi a clod, a stone and gold are all alike. ____________________________ SS So right away what is the primary subject matter becomes clear. When does a Yogi have an equal vision towards everything in life? Forever. Is this a timebound trance like state thet Shankara is talking about here?? So right away it is clear that a timebound state of nirvikalpa samadhi is not being talked off here in this chapter. Also, note that "realization" here is clearly not meant to indicate some mystic objective experience of Brahman, and this is further well clarified in the later slokas as well. _____________________ 6.14 prasantatma vigata-bhir brahmacari-vrate sthitah manah samyamya mac-citto yukta asita mat-parah With a tranquil mind, with a mind completely at peace; free from fear, firm; brahmacari-vrate, in the vow of a celibate, the vow cosisting in serivce of the teacher, eating food got by begging, etc.-firm in that, with the mind fixed on Me who am the supreme God; by controlling the moods of the mind, through concentration; he should remain seated; with Me, the Self, as the supreme Goal. This contrasts with a man who may direct his thoughts to a woman, for example but who may not deem her supreme; for him the king or Deity may be supreme; Here the yogi not only has his mind on Me but has Me as his Supreme Goal. After that, now is being stated the result of Yoga _______________________ SS This is a beautiful description of nidhidhyasanam. Again, when you read about brahmacharya, eating food got by begging, etc one understands that it an entire lifestyle transformation that is being talked about here, not something that is being asked to be carried out for a few hours or anything like that. The result which will subsequently be talked about also is an everlasting result, not a timebound one.. Another thing to note, is this person's goal is set on Me, the Atman. This presupposes that shravanam and mananam have to have already preceded this stage. Else you cannot fix your mind on Atman or the Self, without first having a clear understanding of the words Atman or Self. _____________________ yunjann evam sadatmanam yogi niyata-manasah santim nirvana-paramam mat-samstham adhigacchati 6.15 Concentrating the mind thus, according to the methods shown above unintermittently the yogi, of disciplined mind achieves the Peace, the indifference to worldly attachments and possessions; which culminates in nirvana Liberation; which is abidance in Me, the Self. ________________ SS The fruit of this is achievement of ENDURING Peace, an eternal abidance in the Self. Again this is NOT a timebound experiential state. My humble advice, in general, is to not treat individual sentences in the Gita as complete upadesha without understanding their context and place in the entire vedantic teaching, as many posts here have tried to do here. This is because not one chapter in the entire Gita can be independently analyzed without bearing in mind the overall context of the Masterpiece. In the same Gita, as you are well aware, at different times the Lord will as though be saying seemingly conflicting things. I shall continue my posts on this CH 6 and shall also humbly detail my understanding of the shlokas you referenced in the next few posts - once again, without going about this systematically with the general theme of the chapter and of its place in the Gita, it is impossible to make any meaningful sense of individual slokas. More in the next post Hari OM Shri Gurubhyo namah Shyam --- Sundar Rajan <avsundarrajan > wrote: > I don't know what your reading of Sankara's words > would be but to me > it seems very clear that Sankara is clearly talking > about a time- > bound practice resulting in "the mind of the yogi > merging in the > Self Itself." > > So, if we apply the logic from your message, Sankara > surely must > have a grave misunderstanding of Vedanta :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Respected Shyam-ji , Thanx for this treat. i enjoyed reading every word of it. At the end of your well written post , you conclude (My humble advice, in general, is to not treat individual sentences in the Gita as complete upadesha without understanding their context and place in the entire vedantic teaching, as many posts here have tried to do here. This is because not one chapter in the entire Gita can be independently analyzed without bearing in mind the overall context of the Masterpiece. In the same Gita, as you are well aware, at different times the Lord will as though be saying seemingly conflicting things) May i please share something without appearing to condradict you ? Believe it or not , for an 'adhama' adhikari like me ,( i am not an 'uttama' adhikari like many scholars here) the foloowing verse from Chapter 18 , verse 65 is the key to understanding the entire Srimad Bhagwat Gita ! Chapter 18, Verse 65 manmanaa bhava madbhakto madyaajii maaM namaskuru | maamevaishhyasi satyaM te pratijaane priyo.asi me || Give your mind to Me, be devoted to Me, worship Me and bow to Me. Doing so, you will come to Me alone, I truly promise you, for you are so exceptionally dear to Me. I think this is the best UPADESHA the lord has given in the entire Srimad BHAGWAT GITA !Unless one surrenders to Lord Krisha ( OR ONE'S PERSONAL ISHTA -NISHTA , BY WHATEVER NAME ONE'S WANTS TO ADDRESS HIM/HER) understanding of all verses will be only at an 'intellectual' level! Shyamji, chapter 6 seems ( Sankhya yoga) to be your favorite chapter in Srimad Bhagwat Gita ! please read this verse from the same chapter 6 , VERSE 47 yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantar-atmana sraddhavan bhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo matah And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all. This verse (47)in chsapter 6 is in full conformity with the verse 65 in chapter 18! Of course ! As a doctor, what you say , is right ! in order to understand the whole anatomy of the human body , we need to understand how each part of the body works to contribute to the well being of the entire body! My nephew, who is an endocronologist , and a specialist in treating 'diabetes' says to me always 'aunty! if you specialize in treating 'diabetes' you can pretty much treat the entire body for diabetes affects every oorgan in the human body- the eyes, the nerves, the vascular system, the circulatory sysytem, the heart, etc etc etc ... " Tthis is true of the Srimad Bhagwad gita also ! you cannot dissect the Gita and read each verse as a stand alone verse ! However , we are familiar with this dictum from Srimad BHAGVAT ... 'shraddhavaan labhate jnanam' ... Shraddha has the 'Stength' that even surpasses our so called intellects or reasoning abilities . As my favorite poet Khalil Gibran says " Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking." and as our most respected Ananda wood says again and again ' the love for truth' is the strong foundation on which this 'faith' or shraddha rests ! with warmest regards advaitin, Shyam <shyam_md wrote: > > Dear Sunder-ji, > Pranams. > > Ch.6 is one of the most beautiful chapters in the Gita > and its importance lies in the fact that it is likely > the only portion in the entire prasthanatraya which > details the methodology of nidhidhyasana or dhyana. > The entire chapter deals with nidhidhyasana and its > culmination in selfrealization and the fruit of this > is (not a timebound trance but) everabiding > selfknowledge or in other words jivanmukti. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Namaste Sri Dhyanasaraswati - ji: That is a beautiful quote. Your vitality and energy is always uplifting. I am reminded of Pascal's quote, similar to Gibran's. "The heart has its reasons, where reason cannot go" Or perhaps it is "The heart has its reasons, which reason cannot know" or something like that. I have one question Dhyanasaraswati - ji. Did you not use to go by Adi-ji? Why the name change? Just curious. Both names are wonderful. Love to all Harsha dhyanasaraswati wrote: > > As my favorite poet Khalil Gibran says > > " Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the > caravan of thinking." > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Thank you Harsha-ji! Yes - i used to post as adi_shakthi16 in this group! But by a strange Quirk of fate , i became a persona-no grata in this id ... i again reincarnated in my Dhayansaraswati id ! This name was lovingly given to me by a yoga teacher sri Bhavanidasan who was a member of my group!He always encouraged me in my Sadhana with his loving kindness! Harsha-ji, in any case what is in a name ? as our Bard POET Shakespeare would say ! " What's in a name? That which we call a rose - By any other name would smell as sweet." — (Romeo and Juliet) In any case, you are right both names are beautiful and divine ! How can they not be ? Devi is worshippable in all her names and forms ! She is worshippable in her formless aspec too! Again, as Shakespeare would say " Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale Her infinite variety" ( Anthony and cleopatra) ! Yes , Devi is Shodasi ( 16 year old Kanya kumari) and also Dhoomavati ( the old widow - one of the dasha mahavidyas.) Harsha-ji, i see that you are very much into Goddess Worship ! you are absolutely right - Sri Ramana used to do yantra puja - no wonder the devotees found a sri chakra in his loin cloth after he attained Samadhi! Harsha-ji, i would encourage you to read sri Ramana's translation of Devi Kalotram -THIS IS A UPA AGAMA - This is a Jnãna bestowing one, too. . While Ramana Maharishi lived on Arunãchala hill, a devotee brought the Sanskrit palm leaflets of the 'Ãgama'. He was surprised to find amongst the branches of the 'Ãgamãs' that detail 'kriyãs', one that preached Jnãna! It was in this that the Maharishi found "Devikãlotram - Jnãnãsãra visãra padalam" and "Sarva Jnãnotaram - Ãnma sãkshãtkãra prakaranam". Both speak of the formless Para Brahmam! Both are 'upadesa' by Ishwara (Lord Siva), the former to Devi and the latter to Lord Muruga (Subrahmanya). (maybe our SUNDER-JI could post a link for devi kalotram or ditect us to a book) PLEASE VISIT THIS WEBSITE http://www.madhuramurali.org/swamigal/essay/devikalotram/ji_devikalot ram2a.html yaa devi sarva bhuteshu Shakti rupena snasthita ! namstasyaii namastasyaii ! om namo namaha ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Harsha-ji, i see that you are very much into Goddess Worship ! you are absolutely right - Sri Ramana used to do yantra puja - no wonder the devotees found a sri chakra in his loin cloth after he attained Samadhi! praNAms mAtAji Hare Krishna This is really interesting!! *sri chakra in ramaNa's koupIna* !!! could you please give detailed account of this incident mAtAji?? Thanks in advance. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 advaitin, "dhyanasaraswati" > wrote: a link for devi kalotram or dieect > us to a book) > http://www.sub.uni- goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/saiva/stkal_p u.htm or http://tinyurl.com/ljzu7 =============================================== http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/ (English Publications Catalogue) Sri Devikalottara (Jnanachara Vichara Patala) This is a portion of the Upa Agamas emphasising Advaita. Contains Sanskrit text, English transliteration and translation and Tamil verse translation of Maharshi. [1998, 1st Ed. PB, Size A, 91 pp., 3706; 81-88018-78-3] $ 5.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Dear Dhyanasaraswat-ji: The works that you mention are in the book, "Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi." Devikalottara (Verse 46). The consciousness which shines as "I" in the Heart is pure [flawless] and perfectly steady [without a trace of movement]. By destroying the ego which [rises from that consciousness], that consciousness itself bestows the supreme joy of liberation. Dhyansarswati-ji, I am not much into formal Goddess worship. I would not know how to go about doing it. I did practice Shakti Mantras for many years as part of my yogic practices. Involuntarily, I sometimes say, Om Shakti Nama, Om Devi Nama. I don't know if this is part of a formal mantra.. When I was young and started having many experiences in meditation, fear sometimes gripped me. Remarkably, in many types of savikalpa spiritual experiences, I started sensing a clear and unmistakable feminine presence embracing me and comforting me. My fear would then vanish and I would feel safe in that state or level of consciousness. I did not know much about Goddess worship or the Divine Mother. When these experiences in meditation continued, I read some books and concluded that it must be the Shakti as the Goddess. Prior to that, I wondered why people get so emotional and nutty about these things and dance and worship the Goddess and sing songs to her and so forth. Later on after many years, I had a very clear strong and pure vision of the form of the Goddess. In the vision, she was in her ever perfect youthful form and was the epitome of complete innocence, beauty, and purity, and radiated a most gentle smile full of silent blessings and her eyes beamed with such compassion and kindness. I was completely stunned and could only fold my hand and bow. Thanks for the chance to speak about the Supreme Goddess. Love to all Harsha dhyanasaraswati wrote: > > Harsha-ji, i see that you are very much into Goddess Worship ! you > are absolutely right - Sri Ramana used to do yantra puja - no wonder > the devotees found a sri chakra in his loin cloth after he attained > Samadhi! > > Harsha-ji, i would encourage you to read sri Ramana's translation of > Devi Kalotram -THIS IS A UPA AGAMA - This is a Jnãna bestowing one, > too. . > > While Ramana Maharishi lived on Arunãchala hill, a devotee brought > the Sanskrit palm leaflets of the 'Ãgama'. He was surprised to find > amongst the branches of the 'Ãgamãs' that detail 'kriyãs', one that > preached Jnãna! It was in this that the Maharishi > found "Devikãlotram - Jnãnãsãra visãra padalam" and "Sarva > Jnãnotaram - Ãnma sãkshãtkãra prakaranam". Both speak of the > formless Para Brahmam! Both are 'upadesa' by Ishwara (Lord Siva), > the former to Devi and the latter to Lord Muruga (Subrahmanya). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Pranams Dhyanasaraswatiji Thank you for your kind words and uplifting thoughts. What else is jnana but the surrendering in toto of the ego, (and in the process, gaining the Supreme?!) The verse you quoted is certainly one I would personally consider as one of the best and poignant verses in the entire teaching. But take it strictly by itself, and one might think - OK - no selfeffort is necessary (- since I am so dear to Bhagwan, let Bhagwan, when the time comes, grant me moksha!) But elsewhere in the Gita, Bhagwan himself emphasizes selfeffort, is it not? I appreciate and fully share your ideas on the absolute role of Ishwara samarpanam in gaiining selfknowledge. Pranams, Hari OM Shyam --- dhyanasaraswati <dhyanasaraswati > wrote: > Give your mind to Me, be devoted to Me, worship Me > and bow to Me. > Doing so, you will come to Me alone, I truly promise > you, for you > are so exceptionally dear to Me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Namaste Shyamji, Your views are definitely consistent with Shankara's commentaries. Thanks for sharing your clear understanding. Cheers. Kathirasan On 10/9/06, shyam_md <shyam_md > wrote: > 6.18 > yada viniyatam cittam > atmany evavatisthate > nisprhah sarva-kamebhyo > yukta ity ucyate tada > > > A yogi, who has become free from hankering (thirst) for all > desirable objects, seen and unseen; is then said to be Self- > absorbed; when the controlled mind, i.e. the mind that has > been made fully one-pointed by giving up thought of > external objects rests in the non-dual Self alone, i.e. he gets > established in his own Self. An illustration in being given for the > mind of that yogi which has become Self-absorbed: > > 6.19 > yatha dipo nivata-stho > nengate sopama smrta > yogino yata-cittasya > yunjato yogam atmanah > > > As a lamp kept in a windless place does not flicker such is the > simile - thought of, by the knowers of Yoga who understand the > movements of the mind for the yogi whose mind is under control who > is engaged in contemplation on the Self, i.e. who is practising Self- > absorption (SS: nidhidhyasanam). By dint of practising Yoga thus, > when the mind, comparable to a lamp in a windless place, becomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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