[sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam

October 10, 2006

Dear All,

A subtle thought process in the lineage of a question being raised by

one of my kin. Question pertains to varnasrama in Srivaishnavam.

I had few thoughts with respect to the question. I request our people

to clarify, correct any mistakes with pramanam for the answers I had

given.

Question by my Kin:

"The below thing I wrote when I was a part ramanuja.org discussion

list. I didn't get any answer for this. Still I am searching the

answer for this. Do anyone of you have?

Respected Sir,

kulanthaangu saathikaL naalilum keezizinthu,

etthanai nalanthaa nilaathasaN daaLasaN daaLarka Laakilum,

valanthaangu sakkarath thaNNal maNivaNNaR kaaLenRuL kalanthaar,

adiyaar thammadi yaarem madikaLE.

If an individual is a devotee of Lord Vishnu, then, even if he belongs

to a lowly caste, you must consider his devotee's devotee as your

lord. I'm quoting this paasuram from tiruvaymoli. I have quoted the

explaination from our own web site www.ramanuja.org.

Whatever i understood from the above paasuram according to my

intellect is that if a person is a devotee of shriman naarayan to

whatever castes he/she belongs should be given enough respect. Then

why in our sampradaayam it is so that in the name of achaaram we

discriminate among our own people. Even if they are great devotees of

lord naarayan they are not given enough respect just because they

belong to low caste. I have seen many people who are brahmins and shri

vaishnava but they do not follow any rules and regulations of what

shri vaishnava should follow.But even then they get respect in the

society as well as by high intellectuals since they belong to high

caste. Should it be not like this that the discrimination should be

made only on this basis whether a particular person is a devotee of

shriman naarayan or not rather than caste.Is our sampradaayam

emphasize on casteism. I also felt that casteism is one of the main

reason that our sampradaayam's message is not widely spread. If by

mistake i have written something wrong due to ignorance then i am

extremely sorry for that.

with regards

charchita

Answer:

Dear Charchita

The message is apt but the concept of varnasrama should or could not

be confused here.

Varnasrama Dictates Rules For

1) Individual's Work in society

a) Bhramins - Bhramanosya Mookam aaseeth. Bhramins come from face

of vishnu. Let them be responsible for learning Vedas, chanting it,

and spreading it. By no means they can enter

i) Trade

ii) Warfare

iii) Cultivation or any means of procurement

b) Kshatriya - Baaho rajanya krutaha: By the muscle power let the

rajans rule the world. They should

i) Conquer and control teritories

ii) Learn Vedas and not teach / preach them

iii) Be the sole properitor of wealthiest items in his teritory

c) Vaysya - Vaysyo Dhana samridhasyad - Let the merchants trade and

earn money. Let them use thier strength in thighs to travel far off

and bring money.

i) They cannot learn/preach vedas

d) Shudra - Shudra sukam avapnuyaad - Let the fourth caste people do

the job of line men, agriculture, hunting and all work of building

assisting kings in army. Thereby they are not directly responsible for

any decisions but enable decision makers to fulfill the objective of

society. They can

a) Have multiple marriages, have food without bath, can kill animals

and move from places to places.

Now the key point is Narayana bhakta

He who is intrested in bhramagnana is above these 4 castes which come

by birth and has to be respected alteast equivalent to vishnu,

If currently bhramins/ sri vaishanavas are not doing it its solely the

fault of the individuals and not that of the sampradaya

Instances:

Ramanuja before bath used to hold hands of mudaliyandan (Bhramana

sreshta)and later after bath hold the hand of pillai uranga vali dasar

(4th caste person)

Nampillai called one dasar to submit the food he prepared for perumal

fearing the atma guna poorthi of his second wife.

Lot of instances where disciples were of 4th caste but they were

deciding people of sampradaya,

Our great Acharyan Manavala maamunigal got the greatest of rahasya Sri

vachana bushana from the mouth of an acharya called koora kulothama

dasar who by his birth is the care taker of burial ground (Sandala

vargam). Note: Please correct the name of our poorvacharya who did the

kalakshepam of Srivachana bhushanam to maamunigal.

Points:

We have to take sree pada theertham from the lotus feet of any sri

vaishnava of any caste if he shows atma guna poorthi. abiding the

faith on manavala maamunigal and ramanuja if we fail to do so we dont

call ourself sri vaishnava and because of hypocrats pure sampradayam

is getting dis illusioned as the caste oriented system.

October 11, 2006

Please do some more deeper study. Vaysyas are Upaveetas and can learn and recite Vedas.

Ramanujam.

-------

> ramanuja

> epd40 (AT) (DOT) co.in

> Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:54:06 +0000

> [sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam

>

> Dear All,

> A subtle thought process in the lineage of a question being raised by

> one of my kin. Question pertains to varnasrama in Srivaishnavam.

> I had few thoughts with respect to the question. I request our people

> to clarify, correct any mistakes with pramanam for the answers I had

> given.

>

> Question by my Kin:

>

> "The below thing I wrote when I was a part ramanuja.org discussion

> list. I didn't get any answer for this. Still I am searching the

> answer for this. Do anyone of you have?

>

> Respected Sir,

> kulanthaangu saathikaL naalilum keezizinthu,

> etthanai nalanthaa nilaathasaN daaLasaN daaLarka Laakilum,

> valanthaangu sakkarath thaNNal maNivaNNaR kaaLenRuL kalanthaar,

> adiyaar thammadi yaarem madikaLE.

> If an individual is a devotee of Lord Vishnu, then, even if he belongs

> to a lowly caste, you must consider his devotee's devotee as your

> lord. I'm quoting this paasuram from tiruvaymoli. I have quoted the

> explaination from our own web site www.ramanuja.org.

>

> Whatever i understood from the above paasuram according to my

> intellect is that if a person is a devotee of shriman naarayan to

> whatever castes he/she belongs should be given enough respect. Then

> why in our sampradaayam it is so that in the name of achaaram we

> discriminate among our own people. Even if they are great devotees of

> lord naarayan they are not given enough respect just because they

> belong to low caste. I have seen many people who are brahmins and shri

> vaishnava but they do not follow any rules and regulations of what

> shri vaishnava should follow.But even then they get respect in the

> society as well as by high intellectuals since they belong to high

> caste. Should it be not like this that the discrimination should be

> made only on this basis whether a particular person is a devotee of

> shriman naarayan or not rather than caste.Is our sampradaayam

> emphasize on casteism. I also felt that casteism is one of the main

> reason that our sampradaayam's message is not widely spread. If by

> mistake i have written something wrong due to ignorance then i am

> extremely sorry for that.

>

> with regards

> charchita

>

> Answer:

> Dear Charchita

> The message is apt but the concept of varnasrama should or could not

> be confused here.

> Varnasrama Dictates Rules For

> 1) Individual's Work in society

> a) Bhramins - Bhramanosya Mookam aaseeth. Bhramins come from face

> of vishnu. Let them be responsible for learning Vedas, chanting it,

> and spreading it. By no means they can enter

> i) Trade

> ii) Warfare

> iii) Cultivation or any means of procurement

> b) Kshatriya - Baaho rajanya krutaha: By the muscle power let the

> rajans rule the world. They should

> i) Conquer and control teritories

> ii) Learn Vedas and not teach / preach them

> iii) Be the sole properitor of wealthiest items in his teritory

> c) Vaysya - Vaysyo Dhana samridhasyad - Let the merchants trade and

> earn money. Let them use thier strength in thighs to travel far off

> and bring money.

> i) They cannot learn/preach vedas

> d) Shudra - Shudra sukam avapnuyaad - Let the fourth caste people do

> the job of line men, agriculture, hunting and all work of building

> assisting kings in army. Thereby they are not directly responsible for

> any decisions but enable decision makers to fulfill the objective of

> society. They can

> a) Have multiple marriages, have food without bath, can kill animals

> and move from places to places.

> Now the key point is Narayana bhakta

> He who is intrested in bhramagnana is above these 4 castes which come

> by birth and has to be respected alteast equivalent to vishnu,

> If currently bhramins/ sri vaishanavas are not doing it its solely the

> fault of the individuals and not that of the sampradaya

> Instances:

> Ramanuja before bath used to hold hands of mudaliyandan (Bhramana

> sreshta)and later after bath hold the hand of pillai uranga vali dasar

> (4th caste person)

> Nampillai called one dasar to submit the food he prepared for perumal

> fearing the atma guna poorthi of his second wife.

> Lot of instances where disciples were of 4th caste but they were

> deciding people of sampradaya,

> Our great Acharyan Manavala maamunigal got the greatest of rahasya Sri

> vachana bushana from the mouth of an acharya called koora kulothama

> dasar who by his birth is the care taker of burial ground (Sandala

> vargam). Note: Please correct the name of our poorvacharya who did the

> kalakshepam of Srivachana bhushanam to maamunigal.

> Points:

> We have to take sree pada theertham from the lotus feet of any sri

> vaishnava of any caste if he shows atma guna poorthi. abiding the

> faith on manavala maamunigal and ramanuja if we fail to do so we dont

> call ourself sri vaishnava and because of hypocrats pure sampradayam

> is getting dis illusioned as the caste oriented system.

>

October 12, 2006

Dear Ramanujam

I correct my stance wrt vaishyas as pointed by you. Apart from that, could some thing more be dwelled upon srivaishanava kula poorthi.

I want to highlight this at this juncture particulary for atma gnana and not sarira sampanda we intend to have with fellow srivaishnavas.

What I mean by this is, restrictions on varnasrama dharma are not to be refuted rather, when it comes to exchange of atma guna poorthi,

what should be the stance of a srivaishnava. A practical question. Today a handful of few might have knowledge on srivachanabushanam either because of its greatness or because of a reader's biasedness on it, since it was being commentaried by our acharyan (Maamunigal).

But the overall is,

Do our vaishnava kulam shows the same strength in atma guna poorthi towards a bhagavatha when he is having sampradaya gnana in thoughts and deeds

Question might be, today's srivaishnavas are not like emperumanar or pillai uranga villi dasar or maraner nambi so we cant find whether a bhagavata is having atma guna poorthi. Hence lets all stick on to, varnasrama even in sampradaya pravachanam and samvadams (discourses and discussions).

But the catch to this point is,

we accord the same respect of emperumanar/ 72 simasanadhipadis, to the current emperumanar sthanams, as well as acharya purushas just because of thier lineage whereas,

a srivaishnava nigraham occurs (no exchange of atma guna / bhrama gnana) if he fails to fall within the bhramana kulam

To worsen this, in the name of aacharam various standards have evolved within groups of srivaishnavam. Here the objective is,

1) Not to mocker at our existing reality since I also belong to the part of reality (Srivaishnava kulam)

but, try making the objective of sri vaishnava guna poorthi expected by Manavala maamunigal and Pillai lokacharyar a reality and truly not at the cost of ignoring manusmrithi or varnasrama and

2) To evolve a common acharam for both atma gunam and varnasramam

So question boils down to

Correct questions:

1) How to treat a srivaishnava sreshta who is full with atma guna poorthi irrespective of thier belongings

2) How to exchange atma gnana with them

3) What would be the standard for aacharam for a srivaishnava abiding with Varnasramam.

And the question never intends to (Wrong Question)

1) How to do inter caste marriages

2) How to dine equally with all everywhere.

because, marriage involves anushtana poorthi for a srivaishnava (Gruhastashramam) and just not emotional or physical attachment

Please let us have the right questions (Correct Questions 1 2 and 3) and not the (Wrong Question) as objectives.

adiyen

Ramanuja dasan Dasarathy Elayavilli Ponnappan

Ramanujam Varada Srinivasa Thatta <acharyatvsr (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

Dasarathy <ramanuja>

Wednesday, 11 October, 2006 11:02:26 AM

RE: [sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam