The three states and their objects

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

SHARING THE WISDOM

The examination of the states,viz. waking, dream and deep-sleep, lifts us to an angle of vision in which the plurality and the reality of individual things have to be confined to the individual states and cannot be raised to interstatal value, while the witnessing consciousness is realized as the one and secondless principle, the CHANGELESS ENTITY before which the great and unique drama of Life is enacted in the shape of the states with their contents, never appearing together, never succeeding each other in one and the same time-series, and never absolutely identical in any of their individual aspects. WE THEN DISCOVER THAT THE PURE UNDIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS OF DEEP SLEEP IS THE BASIS OF ALL MANIFESTATION< REMAINING ITSELF UNCHANGED AND UNMODIFIED THROUGH OUT.

The manifestation of every state is the manifestation of the whole of Reality, as, otherwise, we cannot explain why the states are not experienced in juxta-position of each other, or why they are not externally connected by time.

THE TRUTH IS THAT REALITY TRANSCENDS

ALL TIME< SPACE AND CHANGE.

If now by this method of pure introspection and OBSERVATION we find that Life or Reality is one indivisible whole and all variety of things and occurences cannot affect the integrity of Reality, we have every reason to be reverential in our attitude to the Vedas which declare this Truth and point out the unique method of its realization.

* *

QUOTING THE SCRIPTURES

No one should quote the scriptures till he has established his

point independently on the basis of experience common to all

beings.

* *

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Michaelji,

 

Thanks for that valuable pointer to B.S.B. II.ii.29. Yes, I do have a copy

which I use: Gambhirananda's translation (and also Vireswarananda's and

Radhakrihnan's). Is there an English translation that you would particularly

recommend? Only last week I was talking with a friend about Sankara's

Brahma Sutra Bhasya and he remarked that it is not exactly bed time reading.

I felt slightly embarrassed to say that it is a book I keep by my bed!

 

However, to use your food analogy (with Anandaji) I must confess to being a

very slow eater. My family complain I spend too long at the chewing stage

as I am always the last to finish and leave the table.

 

This sometimes translates to discussion lists. At times I am too slow to

reply to posts on the lists, as by the time I have reflected on the issues

raised two or three other people have probably already written and posted

the equivalent of a small/medium sized article including copious quotes from

at least 10 Upanishads, bhasyas and sastras, with each side refuting on

logical and scriptural grounds the other sides view.

 

Yes, *on the surface* there does appear to be many similarities between

Gaudapada's views and the 'Mind Only' school of Buddhism. I guess at least

one key divergence is between Atman/Turiya, as Pure unchanging

Consciousness, the substratum of all, and the Vijnanavadin view of a

consciousness stream made up of moment to moment arisings.

 

I take your (and Sankara's) point about the dream state and sublation. One

cannot as easily do so to the waking state - at least while we are in it!

The example given in the commentary you point to is the individual, after

waking from dream, saying, "Falsely did I imagine myself in contact with

green men." to which Sankara adds, a little further on: "But a thing seen

in the waking state, a pillar for instance, is not thus sublated under any

condition."

 

I wonder, could the same be said (ie "under any condition") about a "blue

sky" or a mirage, say, of water in the desert? I suspect there are many

perceptions in the waking state that are 'real experiences' but what is

perceived may not be present at all (like the mirage) or not in the way we

perceive it (eg the sky is not really blue). I'm not intending to be

argumentative, by the way, I'm just wondering out loud and may have

misunderstood. I would be interested to hear your view.

 

The other aspect that I also have questions about is where Sankara writes

that the waking state comprises visions which are forms of perception while

the dream state is a kind of memory. My own findings (namely, from 'a' of

my own dream experience, and 'b' as someone whose profession includes

listening to many people share their dream experiences) is that many dreams

are exactly that, but there are also many that are not. A common experience

is that many people have some valuable and at times profound encounters with

dream figures, symbols, archetypal situations, 'the guru' & so on that have

a major impact on their lives which they may well describe as profoundly

spiritual in nature. These are not so easily sublated by the "Falsely did I

imagine myself in contact with green men" kind of argument.

 

This is why I quoted the passage from Ramana Maharshi previously:

 

"A man might have an experience such as getting anugraha (grace) in his

dream, and the effects and influence of it on his entire subsequent life may

be so profound and abiding, that one cannot call it unreal, whilst calling

real some trifling incident in the waking life that just flits by, which is

casual, of no consequence and is soon forgotten.

(Gems from Bhagavan, ch.vi, selected by A. Devaraja Mudaliar)

 

Going back to the Karika, Sankara seems to strike a slightly different

tone: which, if I understand you correctly, is what you saying? For

example: in IV-37 he argues that Gaudapada is showing that the usual idea

that waking experience is shared and common to all while dream experience is

private is incorrect:

 

"But the objects perceived in the waking state are not the same to all.

Waking experiences are verily like the dream ones." (IV-37)

 

Anyway, just some reflections, Michael. You and others are welcome to

correct, improve on them.

 

Best wishes,

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin] On Behalf

Of ombhurbhuva

11 October 2006 21:32

advaitin

The Three States and their objects

 

 

Namaste Peterji,

what Shankara has to say about the dream in his

commentary on the Karika of Gaudapada has to be balanced with that which is

in B.S.B. II.ii.29.

"With regard to this we say, the perceptions of the waking state cannot be

classed with those in a dream.

Why?

Because of difference of characteristics; for waking and dream states are

really different in nature."

 

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