Guest guest Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 praNAms Hare Krishna Below is the mail I had posted couple of years back when discussion on Real & Unreal was at rage :-)) Since I donot have the access to internet, I am unable to give link...Forwarding the same mail onceagain from my mail box for the reference of our new joinees to the list. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar PS : Moderators may delete this mail after giving link to the old post. So that readers can read subsequent discussions on the same topic. ---------------------- Forwarded by Bhaskar YR/BAN/INABB/ABB on 10/13/2006 03:38 PM --------------------------- (Embedded Bhaskar YR/BAN/INABB/ABB@ABB image moved 07/22/2004 03:04 PM to file: pic16541.pcx) Please respond to advaitin advaitin cc: Waking & Dream - An objective outlook Security Level:? Internal Humble praNAms Hare Krishna In shruti-s, one can see various methodologies have been adopted to teach Atmaikatva vAda. Our advaita sampradAya vidha-s have gracefully brought out these methods & clealy explained the intrecacies of these methodologies. adhyArOpa apavAda is the principal method adopted by shrutis, in that we can see subdivisions like avasthA traya prakriya (analysation of our three states i.e. waking, dream & sleep states), kArya-kAraNa (cause & effect) prakriya, pancha kOsha (five sheaths) prakriya etc. etc. Since in this moth's main topic *Real & Unreal*, avastha traya holds the key position, this is a humble attempt to analyse our waking & dream states from an objective view point without any subjective attachment to the waker. Since our childhood we've been invariably experiencing waking, dream & sleep states. Despite occurrences of these three states at utmost regularity, we are without our knowledge giving more reality to our waking state when compared to the other two states!! why this is so?? why this special preference to waking state when we are equally experiencing all the three states with the same degree of reality. Having said this, I am not denying the fact that the waking state is the one in which alone real action is possible & all our practical interests lie. But vedAnta declares that life to be truly understood a consideration of the other two states as well which are as indispensable to our life as waking. Hence waking state should not be permitted to dominate over the other states which are entirely independent of it. Interestingly, frankly speaking, we donot know which state has come first to us!! is it waking?? I dont think so, coz. in our childhood we've spent most of our time in sleeping. In our embryo state at mother's womb, we obviously donot have any connection with our socalled waking world. So, the question to be asked to ourselves is which avastha we've encountered first?? is it waking first then due to its vAsana-s dream?? or is it first sleep then waking or dream?? how can sleep can lead us to waking/dream state?? How all of a sudden this mind can take control of waking world when it is conspicuous by its absence in sleep?? Or if we say, it is waking state that has come first to jIva then naturally question will arise, how can there be waker & his waking world taken position in jIva?? which of those vAsana's can influence jIva's first cognition of the waking world?? From where do they (vAsana-s) come in Atman when it is in its true state?? questions keep on coming from each & every inquisitive mind & it is never ending. Since, we are the students of shankara's advaita siddhAnta, first we should see what our parama guru offers in explaining avastha-s. An advaitin can easily say to all the above questions that these avastha-s are mere superimposition on our sAkshi svarUpa. Due to avidya, it appears that we are undergoing these avastha-s in us. But, this is not an abstract answer to the complex problems, advaitin arrived to this conclusion by closely scrutinising these avastha-s from sAkshi view point. After objective analysation of three states, advaitin's intuitive knowledge reveals the fact that there is no avastha whatsoever to nirvikalpa parabrahman & it is mere appearance in Atman because of our anAdi avidya. Now, the question is, how can we say all these avastha-s are mere appearance in Atman when we are clearly experiencing it?? For that advaitin say, yes, no doubt, we do experience all the three states in day in day out. But to analyse the futility of these states & to know the reality of our pure consciousness we should *stand out* of these states & look at it objectively. We cannot stand-in in any one state & give arbitrary verdict on other two states. In shAstra jignAsa, for paramArtha nirNaya this is how we have to analyse it even though this objective analysation is also from waking state (??!!) we should remember that our constitutional position is something which transcends these avastha-s. What we should remember here is, when we say this is an enquiry into the avastha-s, it does not mean that we are simply analysing these avastha-s 'as it is'. Our primary intention here is to realise the true nature of our Atman who's notional experiences of avastha-s. Waking, sleep & dream states are different from each other, this is in our experience. But these states donot have independent existence. And if we check the other two states (dream & sleep) from waker's (vyAvahArika) point of view, it appears that waker controlling the other two & he has intimate connection with other two. But in reality there is absolutely no relation between these states & these states are mere false appearance on our ever existing nature. A simple logic would suffice to prove that the dream state is not dependent on waker & his world. To say either the difference or relation of these states, first & foremost thing is we should have "common time & space" for all these states. But what is there in our experience?? The time & space frames applicable to waking state donot get entry into the dream, like that the time & space frames applicable to the dream donot get entry into the waking world & no need to mention in deep sleep state the notion of time & space of both waking & dream states get ceased without any trace. So, the idea of the succession of the states is purely waking idea and cannot be logically be extended beyond waking. For instance, when I say, "after sending this mail to advaitin group, I am going to attend revenue meeting at conference room" the continuity of the waking consciousness warrants the sequence in which I am programming the events i.e. *my writing mail* say around 2 PM & then *going for meeting* say around 2.30 PM . But please note when I say " I went to bed at 11 pm & slept till morning", in this I know that I was awake only till eleven & then my waking is completely ceased, is it not?? All the events of my waking state are connected one with another as a series in a continuous flow of time of my waking consciousness & accompanies them as an invariable condition. My forthcoming memory of these events obviously assumes the presence of my consciousness during the occurrences of these events. When I speak on the contrary of my sleeping subsequent to going to bed, if I am not biased against waking, I must admit that my waking ceased before sleep began and that my waking consciousness was absent during all the time I slept. I express indeed my exprience in terms of time and say that my sleep succeeded my waking. But this sequence is not like of sequence of events of my writing mail & attending meeting which are taking place in the waking state in which I am aware of the continuous flow of time throughout which I feel in the form of duration, my taking note of time or my feeling of time ceases with waking, and I am not and cannot be conscious of when waking ends or sleep begins, for sleep is just the condition in which our intellect ceases to function. With this, we can easily conclude that to conceive sleep & waking as occuring one after another in the same time series is completely wrong & this is purely a biased view of waker. There is one more problem in accepting waker & his waking world's influence on dream. See, the sequence as we think for dream is, from waking state to sleep & in sleep there is dream. But, as a student of vEdAnta, we know that there is no waker's mind & his consciousness in sleep. If that is the case, how can this waker's conscious can get entry without passing the state of sleep?? is it there in anyone's experience of this big leap of waker's consciousness from waking world to direct dream land?? Now, coming to our age old theory that dreams are the product of impressions created in waking. Though vyAvaharically we can accept this theory, while determining our svarUpa this is not a proven fact always. We often say, "y'day in my sleep I had a nightmare, the impact of that dream was such that even after I awake, my body was sweating & shivering of fear. What does it mean?? is it not quite evident that in this case the dream (nightmare) is kAraNa & sweating & shivering of my waking body is kArya?? What we have been holding sofar is that waking is kAraNa & dreams are kArya of waking vAsana...but here this order got reversed is it not?? >From this, if we relook into the sequence, it looks like from kAraNa (waking) -kArya (dream) happened- then from kArya (nightmare) again kAraNa (shivering etc. in waking body) took place...is it logical to say like this?? Further, if we say, waking is kAraNa (cause) & it is true (sat) & dream is the kArya (effect) & is false (asat), it is illogical to say true (sat / waking) has given birth to false (asat /dream). Because we cannot say true cause can give birth to false effect. Unless this problem resolved we cannot say true waking's vAsana-s causing false or asat dreams. This is the main objection rised by Sri gaudapAdAchArya in kArika against those who upholding more reality of waker & his world. Finally, all of this are not just dry logic. This method assumes nothing & does not call for belief in authenticity & seeks the aid of no special intuition as such. It is fundamentally based on human experience and insists that all the three states should be investigated before we can bank upon the ultimate reality. It simply points out the basic error involved in speculation which confine the application of reason to the facts of waking state, while admiiting the practical utility of such speculations so far as they go, it shows their utter futility and helplessness in arriving a true science of reality. This avastha traya has shruti reference also. Out of 10 principal upanishads, prashna, ItarEya, chAndOgya, bruhadAraNyaka have quotes about avasthA traya. But in mundaka shruti this prakriya (methodology) has been discussed exclusively based on pure jnAna without any stint of injuctive statements such as karma & upAsana. Since this mail already getting very lengthy, I'd just say few words about this very very important upanishat. Sri GaudapAdAchArya has written kArikA-s on this up. & shankara has written commentaries on both kArika & upanishads. While commenting on kArika, shankara says, *vEdAntArtha sArasangrahabhUtamidaM prakaraNa chatushtayam* ( these four chapters are summary of the essence of all vEdAntic teaching). While discussing this fundamental issue shruti first says from adhyArOpa drushti "soyamAtma chatushpAt" subsequently withdraws this (apavAda) by saying "nAntaH prajna na bahiprajnaM, what remains finally is Atman & Atman alone. Apart from this, while identifying Atman in jAgrat & svapna shruti addresses both vishva & tejasa as saptAnga yEkOnavimshati mukhaha ( 7 faces & 19 faces). Please note there is an equal treatment to both vishwa & taijasa here by shruti. Interestingly shankara also in his commentary says samAnam na anyAt (both are same & not different) about waker & dreamer. The bottom line is this, the three states so called are really no states of consciousness. In the first place the witnessing principle (sAkshi) in us which is no other than pure consciousness (shuddha chaitanya), remains quite unaffected by the appearance or disappearance of these states. And in the second place, the three states admit neither of concurrence in space nor of succession in time. Strictly speaking, we have to conclude that sleep is only pure consciousness which has no relation whatever with its manifestation in shape of pramAtru-pramEya, & this state of ours is neither waking nor dreaming nor sleeping at any point of time. It is therefore neither cause nor effect from this absolute stand point. It is this phase of sleep as identical with the everchangeless Atman that is described as *the fourth* (turIya - chaturtha manyanto sa Atma) relatively to the empirical egoes of the three states and seves as the theme of ajAtivAda as propagated by bhagavadpAda's paramaguru GaudapAda. shree sadgurucharaNAravindArpaNamastu Humble praNAms to all sincere truth seekers Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar References : (a) shankara bhAshya on mAndukya & kArika published by Adhyatma prakasha kAryalaya (b) paramArtha chintAmaNi - An independent work in kannada by my guruji Sri SachidAnandEndra sarasvati swamiji. © gaudapAda hrudaya in kannada by the same author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote: > > Below is the mail I had posted couple of years back when discussion > Since I do not have the access to internet, I am > unable to give link...Forwarding the same mail onceagain from my mail box > for the reference of our new joinees to the list. > PS : Moderators may delete this mail after giving link to the old post. So > that readers can read subsequent discussions on the same topic. > > The link is: advaitin/messages/23878 23878 Waking & Dream - An objective outlook bhaskar.yr (AT) in (DOT) abb.com Jul 22, 2004 5:25 am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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