[sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam

[Guest guest]

Dear bhAgavathAs,

 

[continuation from previous mail..]

Do we find any people higher than the status of KoorathAlwans'

dhanam, vidhyA gnAnam, abijanam ? Definitely NOT. Then why

some peoples are acting like as if they are superior in dhanam,

vidhyA, abijanam(caste) than the bhAgavathAs' ? Because of their

agn~anam. Only those peoples had to realise their mistakes and change

that.For that, we should not feel bad!

 

The great sishyA of Swamy Ramanujar, ArulAla Perumal EmperumAnAr

has written Gn~Ana sAram. In that, he clearly explains how can we

react with those kind of peoples who has abhimAnam with their caste, et.c,

 

"pandEuyiranaiththum pangayathAl nAyagarkE

thondAmenath-thelintha thoomanath-thArkku – undO

palakattrum thamudambaip pArthabimAnikkum

ulagaththavarOduravu." (13, GnAna sAram)

 

The first two lines says that, Its anAdhi that all the Atmas'

are sEshaboothars to Sriyapathi (pangayathAl nAyagarkE).

The people who know this sampandham are thoomanathAr.

The third and fourth line is the important one, which adiyEn

couldnt properly translate into english.

 

(undO palakattrum thamudambaip pArthabimAnikkum

ulagaththavarOduravu) This has the great depth meaning

which is given in ManavAla mAmunigal vyAkyAnam.

The rough meaning is, "Eventhough some had learned more

(sruthis,smruthis and sAshtrAs), if they try to distinguish

them with others based on the caste, varNam – palakattrum

thamudambaip pArthabimAnikkum -

there should NOT be any relationship with those persons.

-undO.....ulagaththavarOduravu-

 

Is there any Swamins' can translate the exact meaning from

manavAla mAmunigal vyAkyAnam?

This would be useful to all.

 

AdiyEn,

senthil.b

 

ramanuja, "B.Senthil kumar" <b_senthil2002

wrote:

>

> Dear BhagavathAs,

>

> AdiyEn dont want to find fault with any people, who is not abiding

> the poorvAchAriyars sayings. The thing is that, we have to find out

> where we are lagging in obeying the SriVaishnava dharmA. Its clearly

> stated by Thiruvarangath-amudanAr in Ramanusa NoortrandhAdhi,

> he is a great disciple of Swamy KoorathAlwan. In the paasuram, he

> explains about the kalyAna gunA of his AchArya KoorathAlwan.

>

> "mozhiyaikadakkum perumpugazhAn vanchamukkurumbAm

> kuzhiyai kadakkum namkoorathAlwan saran koodiyapin ......."

> (Ramanusa NootrandhAdhi)

>

> As we recite this daily in nithyAnusanthAnam, probably most us know

> its meaning. Anyhow adiyEn want to relate this with the SriVaishnava

> gunam. If one wants to know, how a SriVaishnavite should be , then he

> has to know the Vaibhavam of Swamy KoorathAlwan.

>

> In the above pAsuram, amudanAr says that, his achArya had crossed

> the big pit (padukuzhi). This kuzhi is nothing but thinking a

> bhAgavthA that, "he is inferior than me with respect to ishwaryam

> (dhanam), studies (vidhyA), kulam (abijanam)". If one starts thinking

> like that, then it will push the person in to the great pit, which is

> not possible for anyone to pull out him from that.

>

> KoorathAlwan doesn't had this three madhams(dhana madham, vidhyA

> madham, abijana madham).

>

> 1) Even though he was a great rich person in Kooram divyadeam,

> he left all the wealth in order to surrender under the lotus feet of

> Swamy EmperumAnAr.

>

> 2)Eventhough his gnAnam was great (he had great brahma gnAnam

> – his vaibhavam of remembering the entire "Brahma Sootram" of

> VedhavyAsar, which was lost during the trip to Kashmir while writing

> Sri BhAsyam by Swamy EmperumAnAr), he said that, all his gnAnam

> was due to his AchArya sampandham.

>

> 3)Eventhough he born in higher caste (he is called as hArItha kula

> thilagam) he never shown that, and always said that, he was born as

> small particle under the lotus feet of Swamy Ramanujar.

>

> That was vaibhavam of Swamy KoorathAlwan. AmudanAr says, "No one

> can explain the vaibhavam of KoorathAlwan by using any language".

> (mozhiyaik kadakkum perumpugazhAn). Since he doesn't had this

> dhana madham, vidyA madham, abijana madham (vanchamukkurumbAm)

> Swamy koorathAlwan was said to, crossed the pit (kuzhiyai kadakkum).

>

> Hence it was the duty of every Sri Vaishnavaite to cultivate the

> kalyAna gunA and get rid of these three madhams(dhana madham, vidyA

> madham, abhijana madham). If you are not getting out of this three

> madhams, this will PUSH YOU INTO THE GREAT PIT. No one can save you

> from that.

>

> When this was explained by Sri.U.Ve. Velukkudi Krishnan Swamin in his

> upanyAsam, he compared the situation of those who can't able to rid

> out the three madhams with the following situation!

>

> "Think of a monkey (monkey gunA we know well), if it drank liquor,

> and was bitten by scorpion and hence became mad. Then think of the

> situation and the behaviour of the monkey?!."

>

> Here the monkey was related to our gunA. Already due to our poorva

> paavams, our Atma gunA is not good. If we had dhana madham with that,

> (drinking liquor), added with vidhyA madham (bitten by scorpion),

> and abijana madham(WE WILL BECOME MAD). Finally our activities will be

> the kind of monkey which drank liquor, bitten by scorpion and finally

> became mad.

>

> Hence its the duty of every Sri Vaishnavite to cultivate their kalyANa

> gunAs and definitely our AchArya's are there (thiruththi panikolvAr)

> to grace on us for improving ones kalyAna gunAs'!

>

> In next mail adiyEn will add the pasuram from GnAna sAram by ArulAla

> perumAl emperumAnAr, in which he relates how to react with the peoples

> who are having abhimAnam with their caste, creed et.c,..

>

> adiyEn,

> senthil.b

>

>

>

> ramanuja, "Dasarathy" <epd40@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear All,

> > A subtle thought process in the lineage of a question being raised by

> > one of my kin. Question pertains to varnasrama in Srivaishnavam.

> > I had few thoughts with respect to the question. I request our people

> > to clarify, correct any mistakes with pramanam for the answers I had

> > given.

> >

> > Question by my Kin:

> >

> > "The below thing I wrote when I was a part ramanuja.org discussion

> > list. I didn't get any answer for this. Still I am searching the

> > answer for this. Do anyone of you have?

> >

> > Respected Sir,

> > kulanthaangu saathikaL naalilum keezizinthu,

> > etthanai nalanthaa nilaathasaN daaLasaN daaLarka Laakilum,

> > valanthaangu sakkarath thaNNal maNivaNNaR kaaLenRuL kalanthaar,

> > adiyaar thammadi yaarem madikaLE.

> > If an individual is a devotee of Lord Vishnu, then, even if he belongs

> > to a lowly caste, you must consider his devotee's devotee as your

> > lord. I'm quoting this paasuram from tiruvaymoli. I have quoted the

> > explaination from our own web site www.ramanuja.org.

> >

> > Whatever i understood from the above paasuram according to my

> > intellect is that if a person is a devotee of shriman naarayan to

> > whatever castes he/she belongs should be given enough respect. Then

> > why in our sampradaayam it is so that in the name of achaaram we

> > discriminate among our own people. Even if they are great devotees of

> > lord naarayan they are not given enough respect just because they

> > belong to low caste. I have seen many people who are brahmins and shri

> > vaishnava but they do not follow any rules and regulations of what

> > shri vaishnava should follow.But even then they get respect in the

> > society as well as by high intellectuals since they belong to high

> > caste. Should it be not like this that the discrimination should be

> > made only on this basis whether a particular person is a devotee of

> > shriman naarayan or not rather than caste.Is our sampradaayam

> > emphasize on casteism. I also felt that casteism is one of the main

> > reason that our sampradaayam's message is not widely spread. If by

> > mistake i have written something wrong due to ignorance then i am

> > extremely sorry for that.

> >

> > with regards

> > charchita

> >

> > Answer:

> > Dear Charchita

> > The message is apt but the concept of varnasrama should or could not

> > be confused here.

> > Varnasrama Dictates Rules For

> > 1) Individual's Work in society

> > a) Bhramins - Bhramanosya Mookam aaseeth. Bhramins come from face

> > of vishnu. Let them be responsible for learning Vedas, chanting it,

> > and spreading it. By no means they can enter

> > i) Trade

> > ii) Warfare

> > iii) Cultivation or any means of procurement

> > b) Kshatriya - Baaho rajanya krutaha: By the muscle power let the

> > rajans rule the world. They should

> > i) Conquer and control teritories

> > ii) Learn Vedas and not teach / preach them

> > iii) Be the sole properitor of wealthiest items in his teritory

> > c) Vaysya - Vaysyo Dhana samridhasyad - Let the merchants trade and

> > earn money. Let them use thier strength in thighs to travel far off

> > and bring money.

> > i) They cannot learn/preach vedas

> > d) Shudra - Shudra sukam avapnuyaad - Let the fourth caste people do

> > the job of line men, agriculture, hunting and all work of building

> > assisting kings in army. Thereby they are not directly responsible for

> > any decisions but enable decision makers to fulfill the objective of

> > society. They can

> > a) Have multiple marriages, have food without bath, can kill animals

> > and move from places to places.

> > Now the key point is Narayana bhakta

> > He who is intrested in bhramagnana is above these 4 castes which come

> > by birth and has to be respected alteast equivalent to vishnu,

> > If currently bhramins/ sri vaishanavas are not doing it its solely the

> > fault of the individuals and not that of the sampradaya

> > Instances:

> > Ramanuja before bath used to hold hands of mudaliyandan (Bhramana

> > sreshta)and later after bath hold the hand of pillai uranga vali dasar

> > (4th caste person)

> > Nampillai called one dasar to submit the food he prepared for perumal

> > fearing the atma guna poorthi of his second wife.

> > Lot of instances where disciples were of 4th caste but they were

> > deciding people of sampradaya,

> > Our great Acharyan Manavala maamunigal got the greatest of rahasya Sri

> > vachana bushana from the mouth of an acharya called koora kulothama

> > dasar who by his birth is the care taker of burial ground (Sandala

> > vargam). Note: Please correct the name of our poorvacharya who did the

> > kalakshepam of Srivachana bhushanam to maamunigal.

> > Points:

> > We have to take sree pada theertham from the lotus feet of any sri

> > vaishnava of any caste if he shows atma guna poorthi. abiding the

> > faith on manavala maamunigal and ramanuja if we fail to do so we dont

> > call ourself sri vaishnava and because of hypocrats pure sampradayam

> > is getting dis illusioned as the caste oriented system.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear bhAgavathAs,

 

[continuation from previous mail..]

 

The thing is that, one should know which is the

important SriVaishnava lakshanam for bhAgavathAls. One

NO NEED TO BE ASHAMED OF BEING BORN IN Kshatriya,

Vysya

or SUtra kulam. IF one doesnt had Acharya sampandham

(through Samasrayanam), bhAgavatha abhimAnam then

they had to feel ashamed of that. THis was stated by

the great AcharyA Pillai Lokacharyar.

 

Only AchArya sampandham, acharya & bhAgavatha

abhimAnam

will grant mOksha. One's kula or gOtram doesnt form

barrier to attain mOksha. When this was stated by

Pillai LokAchAryar in his rahasyam "Srivacana

Booshanam", during that period itself there was a

great

opposite comments on his works. Most of the peoples

(who creeds on caste)doesnt accepted that tAtparyam

and

complained to Namperumal that Pillai Lokacharyar had

written a rahasyam which is against as stated in

vedham. NamperumAl asked his kainkaryaparars to bring

Pillai Lokacharya for questioning him about the

complaint. SInce he was not there, instead of him, his

brother Azhagiya Manavala nayanAr came infront of

NamperumAl. During that time, NamperumAl was ready on

HIS move to thiruveedhi purappAdu. HE asked Azhagiya

Manavala Nayanar for the reasons for the complaint.

 

Azhagiya Manavala Nayanar had composed SriSookthi

"Acharya hrudayam" infront of NamperumAl justifying

his brothers work in "Srivacana Booshanam" is

vedha sampandham, and its not against the vedham

concept. NamperumAl accepted that and said ("sOthi

vAi malarntharuli")"Srivacana Booshanam is vedha

sampandha rahasyam".

 

Thats why Sri Manavala MAmunigal in his UpadEsa

rathina

mAlai had celebrated the vaibhavam of Pillai

LOkacharyar and Srivacana Booshanam in more number of

pAsurams than the vaibhavam of azhwars and other Achar

yars (from 51 to 71, Upadesa rathinamalai)

 

Hence this problem from the very olden days when the

Achayars were present, there was heavy discrimination

within the bhAgavathAs (whether he is brahmin or non-

brahmin). Even this discrimination was raised during

the time of Periya Nambigal, when Srimath Ramanujar

was present. Periya Nambigal justified his act by

quoating Pasurams from Divyaprabandham.

 

Hence adiyEn request swAmins, please dont give

importance to these issues. Only peoples with agn~anam

will encourage this caste, varna discrimination.

 

With this adiyEn will end the post on this issue.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha:

adiyEn

senthil.b

 

 

--- "B.Senthil kumar" <b_senthil2002 (AT) (DOT) co.in>

wrote:

 

> Dear bhAgavathAs,

>

> [continuation from previous mail..]

> Do we find any people higher than the status of

> KoorathAlwans'

> dhanam, vidhyA gnAnam, abijanam ? Definitely NOT.

> Then why

> some peoples are acting like as if they are superior

> in dhanam,

> vidhyA, abijanam(caste) than the bhAgavathAs' ?

> Because of their

> agn~anam. Only those peoples had to realise their

> mistakes and change

> that.For that, we should not feel bad!

>

> The great sishyA of Swamy Ramanujar, ArulAla Perumal

> EmperumAnAr

> has written Gn~Ana sAram. In that, he clearly

> explains how can we

> react with those kind of peoples who has abhimAnam

> with their caste, et.c,

>

> "pandEuyiranaiththum pangayathAl nAyagarkE

> thondAmenath-thelintha thoomanath-thArkku – undO

> palakattrum thamudambaip pArthabimAnikkum

> ulagaththavarOduravu." (13, GnAna sAram)

>

> The first two lines says that, Its anAdhi that all

> the Atmas'

> are sEshaboothars to Sriyapathi (pangayathAl

> nAyagarkE).

> The people who know this sampandham are

> thoomanathAr.

> The third and fourth line is the important one,

> which adiyEn

> couldnt properly translate into english.

>

> (undO palakattrum thamudambaip pArthabimAnikkum

> ulagaththavarOduravu) This has the great depth

> meaning

> which is given in ManavAla mAmunigal vyAkyAnam.

> The rough meaning is, "Eventhough some had learned

> more

> (sruthis,smruthis and sAshtrAs), if they try to

> distinguish

> them with others based on the caste, varNam –

> palakattrum

> thamudambaip pArthabimAnikkum -

> there should NOT be any relationship with those

> persons.

> -undO.....ulagaththavarOduravu-

>

> Is there any Swamins' can translate the exact

> meaning from

> manavAla mAmunigal vyAkyAnam?

> This would be useful to all.

>

> AdiyEn,

> senthil.b

>

> ramanuja, "B.Senthil kumar"

> <b_senthil2002

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear BhagavathAs,

> >

> > AdiyEn dont want to find fault with any people,

> who is not abiding

> > the poorvAchAriyars sayings. The thing is that, we

> have to find out

> > where we are lagging in obeying the SriVaishnava

> dharmA. Its clearly

> > stated by Thiruvarangath-amudanAr in Ramanusa

> NoortrandhAdhi,

> > he is a great disciple of Swamy KoorathAlwan. In

> the paasuram, he

> > explains about the kalyAna gunA of his AchArya

> KoorathAlwan.

> >

> > "mozhiyaikadakkum perumpugazhAn vanchamukkurumbAm

> > kuzhiyai kadakkum namkoorathAlwan saran koodiyapin

> ......."

> > (Ramanusa NootrandhAdhi)

> >

> > As we recite this daily in nithyAnusanthAnam,

> probably most us know

> > its meaning. Anyhow adiyEn want to relate this

> with the SriVaishnava

> > gunam. If one wants to know, how a SriVaishnavite

> should be , then he

> > has to know the Vaibhavam of Swamy KoorathAlwan.

> >

> > In the above pAsuram, amudanAr says that, his

> achArya had crossed

> > the big pit (padukuzhi). This kuzhi is nothing but

> thinking a

> > bhAgavthA that, "he is inferior than me with

> respect to ishwaryam

> > (dhanam), studies (vidhyA), kulam (abijanam)". If

> one starts thinking

> > like that, then it will push the person in to the

> great pit, which is

> > not possible for anyone to pull out him from that.

> >

> > KoorathAlwan doesn't had this three madhams(dhana

> madham, vidhyA

> > madham, abijana madham).

> >

> > 1) Even though he was a great rich person in

> Kooram divyadeam,

> > he left all the wealth in order to surrender under

> the lotus feet of

> > Swamy EmperumAnAr.

> >

> > 2)Eventhough his gnAnam was great (he had great

> brahma gnAnam

> > – his vaibhavam of remembering the entire "Brahma

> Sootram" of

> > VedhavyAsar, which was lost during the trip to

> Kashmir while writing

> > Sri BhAsyam by Swamy EmperumAnAr), he said that,

> all his gnAnam

> > was due to his AchArya sampandham.

> >

> > 3)Eventhough he born in higher caste (he is called

> as hArItha kula

> > thilagam) he never shown that, and always said

> that, he was born as

> > small particle under the lotus feet of Swamy

> Ramanujar.

> >

> > That was vaibhavam of Swamy KoorathAlwan. AmudanAr

> says, "No one

> > can explain the vaibhavam of KoorathAlwan by using

> any language".

> > (mozhiyaik kadakkum perumpugazhAn). Since he

> doesn't had this

> > dhana madham, vidyA madham, abijana madham

> (vanchamukkurumbAm)

> > Swamy koorathAlwan was said to, crossed the pit

> (kuzhiyai kadakkum).

> >

> > Hence it was the duty of every Sri Vaishnavaite to

> cultivate the

> > kalyAna gunA and get rid of these three

> madhams(dhana madham, vidyA

> > madham, abhijana madham). If you are not getting

> out of this three

> > madhams, this will PUSH YOU INTO THE GREAT PIT. No

> one can save you

> > from that.

> >

> > When this was explained by Sri.U.Ve. Velukkudi

> Krishnan Swamin in his

> > upanyAsam, he compared the situation of those who

> can't able to rid

> > out the three madhams with the following

> situation!

> >

> > "Think of a monkey (monkey gunA we know well), if

> it drank liquor,

> > and was bitten by scorpion and hence became mad.

> Then think of the

> > situation and the behaviour of the monkey?!."

> >

> > Here the monkey was related to our gunA. Already

> due to our poorva

> > paavams, our Atma gunA is not good. If we had

> dhana madham with that,

> > (drinking liquor), added with vidhyA madham

> (bitten by scorpion),

> > and abijana madham(WE WILL BECOME MAD). Finally

> our activities will be

> > the kind of monkey which drank liquor, bitten by

> scorpion and finally

> > became mad.

> >

> > Hence its the duty of every Sri Vaishnavite to

> cultivate their kalyANa

> > gunAs and definitely our AchArya's are there

> (thiruththi panikolvAr)

> > to grace on us for improving ones kalyAna gunAs'!

> >

> > In next mail adiyEn will add the pasuram from

> GnAna sAram by ArulAla

> > perumAl emperumAnAr, in which he relates how to

> react with the peoples

> > who are having abhimAnam with their caste, creed

> et.c,..

> >

> > adiyEn,

> > senthil.b

> >

> >

> >

> > ramanuja, "Dasarathy"

> <epd40@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear All,

> > > A subtle thought process in the lineage of a

> question being raised by

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

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