God , Sin & Punishment

[Guest guest]

These are just thought questions, I find so many things contradictory in the teachings of many religions including Hinduism, but unlike muslims and christians, you tolerate me when I ask so its ok (hopefully).

 

What do you think about this?

If God is everywhere, he controls everything, i.e. he is isvara, then what is sin?. If he controls everything then aren't you or I being controlled by him right now, so whatever you or I do , it is his "doing" , right? Hence, sin is an illusion, right?

 

Then , what is the use of Punishment? If you do something 'punishable' by God (example adultery), it is really God commiting sin, so there is really no way you are responsible, then why should God punish you or anyone for anything?

 

Third, God is everywhere , then why do you worship an idol? I agree I am not God, but if he is everywhere , He is in me right now, and also in a rock at the same time, so why can't I worship a rock, or my own body?

 

Finally, I am being sincere when I ask this and I do not mean to offend anyone, but I was meaning to clear these doubts for quite sometime, please give me some good answers and no insults please, thank you.

[Srimanta]

Here is the answers for your questions:

 

These are just thought questions, I find so many things contradictory in the teachings of many religions including Hinduism, but unlike muslims and christians, you tolerate me when I ask so its ok (hopefully).

 

1) What do you think about this?

If God is everywhere, he controls everything, i.e. he is isvara, then what is sin?. If he controls everything then aren't you or I being controlled by him right now, so whatever you or I do , it is his "doing" , right? Hence, sin is an illusion, right?

 

Ans:

 

If you surrender completely by offering all of your activities and fruits out of those activities, then of course whatever is acting through you, that is Krsna is doing. That state is Moha Bhava, means not a single moment you can not stay thinking without Krsna. If you achieve that state, the state of Lord Jaganntha which is Moha Bhava state, supreme bliss full state of Lord, you are completely devoid of any sin. That's why Lord Jaganntha is the supreme manifestation of Lord Krsna in the state of Moha Bhava.

 

2)Then , what is the use of Punishment? If you do something 'punishable' by God (example adultery), it is really God commiting sin, so there is really no way you are responsible, then why should God punish you or anyone for anything?

 

Ans:

 

Krsna never did adultery. Krsna is always perfect. All the gopies are expansion of original Krsna, who already had qualified to be gopies through loving devotional services to Krsna. They look like Krsna by mercy of Krsna. that's why so many gopies and so many wife of Krsna. Krsna only has single divine consort Radha. So illicit sex is always punishable which is an act of bull. If any one does that in Golok, immediately he will fall down and come to Lord Shiva to get birth and suffering starts.

 

3) Third, God is everywhere , then why do you worship an idol? I agree I am not God, but if he is everywhere , He is in me right now, and also in a rock at the same time, so why can't I worship a rock, or my own body?

 

Ans:

 

Idol is also God just like a picture of your Father is also your Father. God can transmit His divine energy through idol, image of God. Just think that when you see one picture of your father, immediately in your mind all loving relationship of your father appears. Similarly when you see one idol of Krsna, your soul immediately is filled with love of Krsna.

 

4) Finally, I am being sincere when I ask this and I do not mean to offend anyone, but I was meaning to clear these doubts for quite sometime, please give me some good answers and no insults please, thank you.

 

Ans:

 

A Vaisnava should ask always doubt. If one has doubt he can not achieve God.

[ananda]

Hare Krishna!

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

If God is everywhere, he controls everything, i.e. he is isvara, then what is sin?. If he controls everything then aren't you or I being controlled by him right now, so whatever you or I do , it is his "doing" , right? Hence, sin is an illusion, right?

 

God controls everything. You and I are controlled by God. However, there is something called "FREE WILL". Since we mis-use this free will, we sin but if we use it in the service of Krishna, we become devotees. So, technically, Krishna cannot control us 100% because we have a very minute quantity of Free will. Sin is temporary but not illusionary.

 

Then , what is the use of Punishment? If you do something 'punishable' by God (example adultery), it is really God commiting sin, so there is really no way you are responsible, then why should God punish you or anyone for anything?

 

The argument again revolves around the mis-use of our free will and hence end up in a punishable state. Punishment from God is nothing but His mercy on us. It is like if my father punishes me...it is out of his love for me and that he wants to correct me and not to hurt me. So punishment by Krishna through the agent of Maya is His mercy to dovetail our free will with Krishna's will.

 

Third, God is everywhere , then why do you worship an idol? I agree I am not God, but if he is everywhere , He is in me right now, and also in a rock at the same time, so why can't I worship a rock, or my own body?

 

We do not worship an idol. We worship a deity that is made of material elements and invoked spiritually through sound vibration. In other words, God Himself has mentioned specifically in the Scriptires as to how He wants to be worshipped. Again, this is for our sake and not for Krishna. Krishna is complete and self-sufficient. He does not require worship. But, since we minute jivas are small, insignificant, conditioned and suffering, Krishna has volunteered to accept our service through deity worship. By constant worship, we can dovetail our free will to Krishna and ultimately attain prema-bhakti. The whole process of deity worship is technical and methodical and cannot be done whimsically on our own. As conditioned souls, we misuse our free will, and by proper methods, we can love Krishna and one of the processes is deity worship (of the 9 processes to attain love)

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Srimanta]

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

1) God controls everything. You and I are controlled by God. However, there is something called "FREE WILL". Since we mis-use this free will, we sin but if we use it in the service of Krishna, we become devotees. So, technically, Krishna cannot control us 100% because we have a very minute quantity of Free will. Sin is temporary but not illusionary.

 

ANS: That's why Krsna told give me everything including your FREE will and you will be FREE from material activities

 

2)The argument again revolves around the mis-use of our free will and hence end up in a punishable state. Punishment from God is nothing but His mercy on us. It is like if my father punishes me...it is out of his love for me and that he wants to correct me and not to hurt me. So punishment by Krishna through the agent of Maya is His mercy to dovetail our free will with Krishna's will.

 

ANS: Again by punishment your father nullify your FREE will. You can not use your FREE will for FREE stuff any more

 

3)We do not worship an idol. We worship a deity that is made of material elements and invoked spiritually through sound vibration. In other words, God Himself has mentioned specifically in the Scriptires as to how He wants to be worshipped. Again, this is for our sake and not for Krishna. Krishna is complete and self-sufficient. He does not require worship. But, since we minute jivas are small, insignificant, conditioned and suffering, Krishna has volunteered to accept our service through deity worship. By constant worship, we can dovetail our free will to Krishna and ultimately attain prema-bhakti. The whole process of deity worship is technical and methodical and cannot be done whimsically on our own. As conditioned souls, we misuse our free will, and by proper methods, we can love Krishna and one of the processes is deity worship (of the 9 processes to attain love)

 

ANS: Krsna's name is His worship. That's what Prabhupada and Lord Chaitannya Moahaprabhu had preached for. If you take the holy name in your heart and chant always, you need not to worship deity. Deity is optional for the beginner only. Like A,B,C.. Once Krsna's named is placed in the heart by practicing sankirtan, you need not worship even deity when you reach highest state of devotional services to Krsna. But following scriptures and worshipping deity is always welcome.

 

Did you not see how the Muslims or Christians people pray without any deity. That prayer also goes to Krsna through their mediator.

[Guest guest]

1) If Krishna cannot control us completely then why do we say that he is 'omnipotent'?

 

2) If you give all your free will to Krishna, then what about your daily life? You live in thinking of krishna but wouldn't that make you forget your goals in life? your wife, kids and family in the present or future? Don't you have a certain duty toward your career, your own family? Or is that all maya? If it is, then why is human society set up by krishna like this? why can't he just make everyone appear in this world spontaneously as a servant of krishna?

[Guest guest]

Redsox on my bad hair days I wonder about that stuff also esp the last post you made.

 

That is why in the Shiva tradition, in one school anyway, Yogaswami said, "Who knows? No one knows!" and "All was done long ago!"

 

In other words, yah it would make more sense some other scenarios. But this is what the deal is, whatever it is that is going on right now.

 

In the Shiva tradition, basically we are in an evolution. So the bummer things are supposed to be strengthening us on the inside. Sort of spiritually when we spring from the tatastha we are like caterpillar eggs then caterpillars.

 

i.e. young souls. Then we go through many experiences and become medium souls, like the chrysallis stage or cocoon. Then we spiritually grow some more and become butterflies, so to speak.

 

In the Vaisnava tradition they have Brhad Bhagavatamrita similar idea, that the soul goes through an evolution in consciousness. By all of the external things we transform on the inside and become deeper and wiser.

 

But yah on some days I am like "Hoo, boy: woulda been easier if we were all perfected beings through and through from the beginning." And we are, our essence is already perfect: saccidananda is the soul body of bliss, anandamaya kosha. That is our core.

 

But externally there is a progression of experiences the jiva goes through on the road to becoming perfect. Like we are in a soul factory production line.

[gHari]

 

1) If Krishna cannot control us completely then why do we say that he is 'omnipotent'?

 

2) If you give all your free will to Krishna, then what about your daily life? You live in thinking of krishna but wouldn't that make you forget your goals in life? your wife, kids and family in the present or future? Don't you have a certain duty toward your career, your own family? Or is that all maya? If it is, then why is human society set up by krishna like this? why can't he just make everyone appear in this world spontaneously as a servant of krishna?

The answer to both questions is love. If you tell your son to make you a valentine, that is not as enjoyable for you as when your son forgoes his play time to draw a valentine for you simply out of affection.

 

In His omnipotence, Krsna, God somehow creates innumerable living entities who have free will. That is no easy feat - being created by God, of God, in God, how can they possibly be independent? It is a mystery indeed.

 

Surrender is the learning process, accepting God's guidance. While it is the prime devotional path, it later gives way to spontaneous love for God, in which one acts perfectly, automatically in their eternal relationship with God. This pure love of Krsna is the final goal.

 

The metaphor given to understand how our environment (filled with friends, family, occupational duties, etc.) is dovetailed with God consciousness involves the truth that one has to water the root of a plant to make it healthy, for watering the leaves and flowers will not nourish the plant properly.

 

It all comes down to <I>why</I> we do things, not <I>what</I> we do. I think you've got a good shot at this God thing, Saint Louie. I mean: Saint Boston.

[Srimanta]

 

1) If Krishna cannot control us completely then why do we say that he is 'omnipotent'?

 

2) If you give all your free will to Krishna, then what about your daily life? You live in thinking of krishna but wouldn't that make you forget your goals in life? your wife, kids and family in the present or future? Don't you have a certain duty toward your career, your own family? Or is that all maya? If it is, then why is human society set up by krishna like this? why can't he just make everyone appear in this world spontaneously as a servant of krishna?

 

Krsna takes care so many cows, then why not one more?

[Guest guest]

Thanks for answering my questions. Ok, what I understand from your analogy is that God is just playing with his children and it is ultimately just a game , at the end we are all goin back to him and that is like "waking up from a dream". I think I got it for now. but I don't think I am done yet, my fickle mind is satisfied for now but it is going to pop more questions later. So I'll be back.

[gHari]

Not a game, but an opportunity to perfect our love for God. Then we will become worthy of that Kingdom.

[Guest guest]

According to the Shiva tradition that I am familiar with, if I am not mistaken:

 

1) There is no such thing as "sin", only learning experiences.

 

2) Thus there is no such thing as "punishment", only actions and reactions.

 

In other words: the soul goes through a variety of experiences. As the soul progresses then she discovers that there are good choices and bad choices. Certain acts, conduct leads to certain benefic results and positive states of mind, other conduct and acts lead to different, painful states of mind.

 

 

 

That is why, whether Christian or Buddhist, Muslim or Shinto, Vaisnava or Shaivite, it is called the Sanatana Dharma or eternal religion. Every culture in the world has an idea like "be nice" and "help others", "be kind", "praise God from whom all blessings flow", etc. As the soul progresses through various experiences, she learns things like "it is better to give than to receive".

 

 

 

Also as the soul progresses, the lessons and the reactions become heavier, [according to the Shiva tradition I am familiar with] the more evolved you are of a soul. For example if a young soul does some action, she or he will not receive the same karmic reaction as an older soul will get.

 

In a nutshell there are experiences that all souls will have so that the soul nature becomes refined. Or as one person said, "love" is the goal: the soul becomes more and more loving. Like I am sure you have met or read about or heard about the old souls of this world. The old souls do things like help others and they don't just talk about it.

 

The old souls have learned through experience that there are some actions that just feel better and nicer. For example: selfishness is a choice, not a "sin", according to the school of Hinduism that I am familiar with.

 

Selfishness is a type of experience that yields a certain type of fruit or result. A young soul might indulge in selfish behavior and get away with it more than a medium soul. And an old soul would not even consider it; it does not feel like a good match or a comfortable fit for his or her psyche.

 

 

 

The example given is we are just a lump of clay on a potter's wheel of the Divine at the beginning, when we spring from the tatastha. Then we take shape--or evolve--on the Divine Potter's wheel, through various experiences.

 

Thus there is no "sin", just experiences and reactions to those experiences. And as you progress as a soul you learn to make better choices. By "better" we do not mean good or bad but as one prabhu pointed out "love". You learn what love is and what is more loving. As the Bible said, "Love is patient, love is kind, love bears all things."

 

 

As you progress as a soul, you learn daily and hourly to make choices as to what is the more loving choice that brings us more love and more loving feelings? And loving feelings at the begining and the middle as well as at the end. Sorry it sounds corny but that is how there can be no such thing as "sin" and "jealous God" in Hinduism, in one school of thought at least.

 

 

 

3) In [according to at least one Shaivite school] Hinduism, we worship an external Deity in the Temple to develop bhakti or devotion (or as one person said "love"). By bhakti AND good conduct then we progress in our meditation.

 

As we progress in our meditation then the focus of our meditation and worship goes from external Deity [external world we can touch and see, 2D and 3D] to internal Deity [inside our mind and heart, 4th dimension]. But we never at any point give up the external Temple devotions or bhakti, according to the Shiva school I am most familiar with.

 

 

 

Also you asked "why can't we worship this or that?" You can. In Bhag Gita Krsna says, "I am ..." so many things in Nature. It is very beautiful, all of the various things He describes. So you can see Him everywhere. And in Shaivite we have this also: we learn to see God everywhere.

 

For example Krsna says, "I am the syllable AUM." So you can hear this sound in so many places. You can hear it in the hum of a city, the roar of a bus, the spinning of a fan, the mooing of a cow, the buzzing of bees, and in the sound of Nature. If you listen closely, you can hear it all of the time. Krsna said that he is AUM. So as devotees we learn to see our Beloved everywhere.

 

 

 

It is pretty fun. So yes, you can worship a rock. In fact Hindus are big rock worshippers. Vaisnavas have the shalagram shila and Govardhana shila and the Shaivites have the Shiva lingam. Also Buddhists worship the rock: Shunryo Suzuki introduced his disciples at SF Zen Center how to do puja to a rock by selecting a special rock and then pouring water over it. In Shinto we respect the rock by acknowledging that everything is alive or has kami, spirit: even the water and mountains, rocks and stones.

 

In Tibetan Buddhism we worship the rock by the Mountains we respect as Goddesses, namely Chomolungma is Mount Everest, biggest rock in the world. That is one reason why I love this Sanatana Dharma so much, every tradition comes together in harmony. In Islam they worship the Kaaba, monolithic rock structure at Mecca, again same concept. In Christianity Jesus said, "I am the Rock" or foundation, plus there is an actual church: The Dome of the Rock.

 

 

 

You also asked "Why can't I worship myself then?" You can and you should also worship yourself. Not just any old way, but you should have respect for yourself since your body is a temple of God. In Hinduism we believe that God is in everyone's heart. Many devotees of Lord Krsna that I met, said that before they learned about Hinduism from Prabhupada, they wanted to kill themselves before they found out that they are, in truth, sacred beings. Hinduism teaches you how and why you are sacred.

 

In Hinduism we feel that you are sacred because you are a spark of the Divine. Therefore we say "Namaste" to each other: "I acknowledge and bow to the spark of the Divine within you." You can experience how the Divine is flowing within you and without you by observing the following:

 

1. PRANA - your inbreath and outbreath is God's will; nothing moves but by His Divine will

2. SHAKTI - the flow of life within your body and every living thing is the same flow of energy

3. DARSHAN - hold a sacred form within your mind and think of nothing else. See that form within every form.

4. JYOTI - inner light: the shine and twinkle in the eyes that is not there in a dead body; the light that illuminates our thoughts

5. NADI - listen to constant high-pitched EEEEE sound in your head, or listen to the sound of AUM in nature

 

So learning to see yourself as a spark of Divine is integral to seeing God everywhere. We see God in three forms in Hinduism: everywhere (Brahman), in the heart (Param Atma), and in the heaven (Bhagavan). So yes you can even worship yourself by respecting yourself as a spark of the Divine.

 

 

 

In conclusion, there is no such thing as sin, only experience. The Earth planet is the best place to grow and transform through these experiences. Yes you can worship rock and yes you can also worship yourself. However to avoid psychotic effects of misguided rock and self worship, there are guidelines in Hinduism from the ancient rsis and seers as to how to get the most "bang for your buck" from this rock worship and self worship. These guidelines were given by a loving God to us from the old souls, His Friends.

 

Aum Shanti.

[Yogesh from za]

Very Nice and Illuminating thoughts on the above post. I really enjoyed your realizations.

 

Once Again Thank You

 

Hare Krsna

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

[Srimanta]

 

According to the Shiva tradition that I am familiar with, if I am not mistaken:

 

1) There is no such thing as "sin", only learning experiences.

 

2) Thus there is no such thing as "punishment", only actions and reactions.

 

In other words: the soul goes through a variety of experiences. As the soul progresses then she discovers that there are good choices and bad choices. Certain acts, conduct leads to certain benefic results and positive states of mind, other conduct and acts lead to different, painful states of mind.

 

 

 

That is why, whether Christian or Buddhist, Muslim or Shinto, Vaisnava or Shaivite, it is called the Sanatana Dharma or eternal religion. Every culture in the world has an idea like "be nice" and "help others", "be kind", "praise God from whom all blessings flow", etc. As the soul progresses through various experiences, she learns things like "it is better to give than to receive".

 

 

 

Also as the soul progresses, the lessons and the reactions become heavier, [according to the Shiva tradition I am familiar with] the more evolved you are of a soul. For example if a young soul does some action, she or he will not receive the same karmic reaction as an older soul will get.

 

In a nutshell there are experiences that all souls will have so that the soul nature becomes refined. Or as one person said, "love" is the goal: the soul becomes more and more loving. Like I am sure you have met or read about or heard about the old souls of this world. The old souls do things like help others and they don't just talk about it.

 

The old souls have learned through experience that there are some actions that just feel better and nicer. For example: selfishness is a choice, not a "sin", according to the school of Hinduism that I am familiar with.

 

Selfishness is a type of experience that yields a certain type of fruit or result. A young soul might indulge in selfish behavior and get away with it more than a medium soul. And an old soul would not even consider it; it does not feel like a good match or a comfortable fit for his or her psyche.

 

 

 

The example given is we are just a lump of clay on a potter's wheel of the Divine at the beginning, when we spring from the tatastha. Then we take shape--or evolve--on the Divine Potter's wheel, through various experiences.

 

Thus there is no "sin", just experiences and reactions to those experiences. And as you progress as a soul you learn to make better choices. By "better" we do not mean good or bad but as one prabhu pointed out "love". You learn what love is and what is more loving. As the Bible said, "Love is patient, love is kind, love bears all things."

 

 

As you progress as a soul, you learn daily and hourly to make choices as to what is the more loving choice that brings us more love and more loving feelings? And loving feelings at the begining and the middle as well as at the end. Sorry it sounds corny but that is how there can be no such thing as "sin" and "jealous God" in Hinduism, in one school of thought at least.

 

 

 

3) In [according to at least one Shaivite school] Hinduism, we worship an external Deity in the Temple to develop bhakti or devotion (or as one person said "love"). By bhakti AND good conduct then we progress in our meditation.

 

As we progress in our meditation then the focus of our meditation and worship goes from external Deity [external world we can touch and see, 2D and 3D] to internal Deity [inside our mind and heart, 4th dimension]. But we never at any point give up the external Temple devotions or bhakti, according to the Shiva school I am most familiar with.

 

 

 

Also you asked "why can't we worship this or that?" You can. In Bhag Gita Krsna says, "I am ..." so many things in Nature. It is very beautiful, all of the various things He describes. So you can see Him everywhere. And in Shaivite we have this also: we learn to see God everywhere.

 

For example Krsna says, "I am the syllable AUM." So you can hear this sound in so many places. You can hear it in the hum of a city, the roar of a bus, the spinning of a fan, the mooing of a cow, the buzzing of bees, and in the sound of Nature. If you listen closely, you can hear it all of the time. Krsna said that he is AUM. So as devotees we learn to see our Beloved everywhere.

 

 

 

It is pretty fun. So yes, you can worship a rock. In fact Hindus are big rock worshippers. Vaisnavas have the shalagram shila and Govardhana shila and the Shaivites have the Shiva lingam. Also Buddhists worship the rock: Shunryo Suzuki introduced his disciples at SF Zen Center how to do puja to a rock by selecting a special rock and then pouring water over it. In Shinto we respect the rock by acknowledging that everything is alive or has kami, spirit: even the water and mountains, rocks and stones.

 

In Tibetan Buddhism we worship the rock by the Mountains we respect as Goddesses, namely Chomolungma is Mount Everest, biggest rock in the world. That is one reason why I love this Sanatana Dharma so much, every tradition comes together in harmony. In Islam they worship the Kaaba, monolithic rock structure at Mecca, again same concept. In Christianity Jesus said, "I am the Rock" or foundation, plus there is an actual church: The Dome of the Rock.

 

 

 

You also asked "Why can't I worship myself then?" You can and you should also worship yourself. Not just any old way, but you should have respect for yourself since your body is a temple of God. In Hinduism we believe that God is in everyone's heart. Many devotees of Lord Krsna that I met, said that before they learned about Hinduism from Prabhupada, they wanted to kill themselves before they found out that they are, in truth, sacred beings. Hinduism teaches you how and why you are sacred.

 

In Hinduism we feel that you are sacred because you are a spark of the Divine. Therefore we say "Namaste" to each other: "I acknowledge and bow to the spark of the Divine within you." You can experience how the Divine is flowing within you and without you by observing the following:

 

1. PRANA - your inbreath and outbreath is God's will; nothing moves but by His Divine will

2. SHAKTI - the flow of life within your body and every living thing is the same flow of energy

3. DARSHAN - hold a sacred form within your mind and think of nothing else. See that form within every form.

4. JYOTI - inner light: the shine and twinkle in the eyes that is not there in a dead body; the light that illuminates our thoughts

5. NADI - listen to constant high-pitched EEEEE sound in your head, or listen to the sound of AUM in nature

 

So learning to see yourself as a spark of Divine is integral to seeing God everywhere. We see God in three forms in Hinduism: everywhere (Brahman), in the heart (Param Atma), and in the heaven (Bhagavan). So yes you can even worship yourself by respecting yourself as a spark of the Divine.

 

 

 

In conclusion, there is no such thing as sin, only experience. The Earth planet is the best place to grow and transform through these experiences. Yes you can worship rock and yes you can also worship yourself. However to avoid psychotic effects of misguided rock and self worship, there are guidelines in Hinduism from the ancient rsis and seers as to how to get the most "bang for your buck" from this rock worship and self worship. These guidelines were given by a loving God to us from the old souls, His Friends.

 

Aum Shanti.

 

Can you transfer your experience to me such that I get all expereince from you. Good luck O soul!

[Guest guest]

 

In conclusion, there is no such thing as sin, only experience. The Earth planet is the best place to grow and transform through these experiences. Yes you can worship rock and yes you can also worship yourself. However to avoid psychotic effects of misguided rock and self worship, there are guidelines in Hinduism from the ancient rsis and seers as to how to get the most "bang for your buck" from this rock worship and self worship. These guidelines were given by a loving God to us from the old souls, His Friends.

 

Aum Shanti.

 

That makes alot more sense. Thank you and Aum Shanti

[Guest guest]

 

That makes alot more sense. Thank you and Aum Shanti

 

oh ya that was me, Redsox, I am going to register.

[theist]

 

These are just thought questions, I find so many things contradictory in the teachings of many religions including Hinduism, but unlike muslims and christians, you tolerate me when I ask so its ok (hopefully).

Of course. We all have doubts that is why we are in the material world.

 

 

What do you think about this?

If God is everywhere, he controls everything, i.e. he is isvara, then what is sin?. If he controls everything then aren't you or I being controlled by him right now, so whatever you or I do , it is his "doing" , right? Hence, sin is an illusion, right?

The factor of free will must be considered. We are free to act according to God's spiritual principles or against them. The saying "man propoes and God disposes" is apropo here.

 

 

Then , what is the use of Punishment? If you do something 'punishable' by God (example adultery), it is really God commiting sin, so there is really no way you are responsible, then why should God punish you or anyone for anything?

Same thing. God would not punish us for His actions. But breaking God's codes is our doing (by desire) and not God's. And even then God does not punish us really. By acting contrary to spiritual principles we place underselves under karmic law and thus we reap the fruits of whatever we have sown.

 

Some people perceive predestination in their lives and it is there. But it is incorrect to think that God just arbitrarily placed it there. This one life is not our starting point. We existed before this birth and are actually eternal. We have always existed. In a past life we sowed some karmic seeds and in this life we are reaping the fruit of them. That is why some people are born beautiful in rich families and others may be poor and crippled. It is not that God is just arbitrarily or whimiscally deciding to make someone rich or poor and someone a gifted athlete and another unable to walk. We predestined our own present lives by the actions of our past lives. But even within the confines of this karmic predestination we have room to change the path we have been walking.

 

 

Third, God is everywhere , then why do you worship an idol? I agree I am not God, but if he is everywhere , He is in me right now, and also in a rock at the same time, so why can't I worship a rock, or my own body?

No one should worship an idol. If you see the Deity as stone or silver then you would be worshipping an idol. But if you perceive Him and worship Him as the Deity that is perfect realization.

 

You can worship God IN the stone just as you can worship God in your body but if you worship the stone itself or your body itself that is idol worship. We can also worship God in each other as well as ourselves. Indeed the self realized soul sees Him everywhere. From this angle everyone plant animal human demigod or demon are all temples of the Lord. This is why we should never hate anyone or anything because of the presence of the Lord.

 

This is a very advanced stage and we can't fake it. The Deity gives the beginner a focal point but from there his consciousness must expand. The Lord says that if we worship Him in the temple but neglect Him within the hearts of others we can never please Him by the Deity worship. However practice makes perfect and even though we are presently far from the perfect stage we must go on towards the goal.

 

 

Finally, I am being sincere when I ask this and I do not mean to offend anyone, but I was meaning to clear these doubts for quite sometime, please give me some good answers and no insults please, thank you.

Your questions show a developed intelligence and are the product of sincere introspection. Thank you for asking them.

 

Hare Krsna

[gHari]

http://vedabase.net/bg/3/36/en

http://vedabase.net/bg/3/37/en

http://vedabase.net/bg/3/38/en

http://vedabase.net/bg/3/39/en

http://vedabase.net/bg/3/40/en

http://vedabase.net/bg/3/41/en

 

As one advances along the path, he learns that 'sin' means doing what does not please Krsna, and that 'punishment' is actually a reaction designed to correct this character flaw in the conditioned soul.

 

It is all God's mercy, even though at times it may seem very rough. The more receptive to God's desire we are, the less force is required to change us. The more obstinate or out of control we are, the more dramatic the lesson needs to be to gain our attention and create the necessary change of heart.

[Guest guest]

 

These are just thought questions, I find so many things contradictory in the teachings of many religions including Hinduism, but unlike muslims and christians, you tolerate me when I ask so its ok (hopefully).

 

What do you think about this?

If God is everywhere, he controls everything, i.e. he is isvara, then what is sin?. If he controls everything then aren't you or I being controlled by him right now, so whatever you or I do , it is his "doing" , right? Hence, sin is an illusion, right?

 

Then , what is the use of Punishment? If you do something 'punishable' by God (example adultery), it is really God commiting sin, so there is really no way you are responsible, then why should God punish you or anyone for anything?

 

Third, God is everywhere , then why do you worship an idol? I agree I am not God, but if he is everywhere , He is in me right now, and also in a rock at the same time, so why can't I worship a rock, or my own body?

 

Finally, I am being sincere when I ask this and I do not mean to offend anyone, but I was meaning to clear these doubts for quite sometime, please give me some good answers and no insults please, thank you.

 

Hari OM

 

Why should a seed undergo a struggle ? just to become a tree, if the seed thinks that why all this trouble (which may appear as punishment to it) then it will not grow.

 

Same thing for individual souls , which arises like a seed from the fifth level (called jana loka) undergoes struggle to bloom (reach the 6th or 7th level called Tapa loka or Sathya loka).

 

The level and duration of the struggle would depend on the land where the seed falls, which would inturn depend on the attitude and desires of the soul.

 

The seed can spiritually advance or decay, but once spourted it can't become a seed again (atleast for the life time of one Brahma----trillions of years)

 

i think this is what Hinduism says, unlike Abhrahmic religion which talks about judgement day, eternal enjoyment and punishment (BTW God becomes an useless entity there after judgement day, since he has left with no work thereupon)

[Guest guest]

The example of a seed and a tree is not appropriate for few reasons, some of which are as follows :-

 

- Seed can not grow by its freewill.

 

- When seed becomes tree, it can produce plenty of seeds.

 

- One seed can not destroy/mislead the another seed etc.

 

 

If you say "there is no such thing as sin, only experience", there is no need for punishment (result of bad action) for criminals. You can name punishment as experience but the sin-doer should realize for which bad action, he is suffering. For example, if any human being is suffering in this life because of his bad-actionsof past lives, then how can he realize for which action he is suffering. There is no specific set of rules known to us to measure the amount of sin but we can imagin/experience the result of single and simple action of ours. The result of complex actions of ours that too collectively can not be measured by human intelligence.

[Guest guest]

 

The example of a seed and a tree is not appropriate for few reasons, some of which are as follows :-

 

Yes that may not be a perfect example, but still it is as close as any other example can get near the reality

 

 

- Seed can not grow by its freewill.

 

 

Seeds have a will to grow, under given identical circumstances some seeds grow and some decay, this can only be explained by will of tree, or by pre-destiny no other possible explanations

 

 

- When seed becomes tree, it can produce plenty of seeds.

 

 

Yes that is why the father is compared to God for the son, and son is called "Atama Jam" of his father

 

 

- One seed can not destroy/mislead the another seed etc.

 

 

possible with some type of wild seeds, also there are seeds clinging to the parent and parent has to jump away from it (cucumber)

 

If you say "there is no such thing as sin, only experience", there is no need for punishment (result of bad action) for criminals. You can name punishment as experience but the sin-doer should realize for which bad action, he is suffering.

 

 

There is no "sin-doer" and "suffering" only learning experience, some of the learning lessons may be rough. The force of the experience itself will mould the experiencer to the correct attitude, no need of documented explanations of what he did earlier, why this lessons now and what are the pros/cons of this lessons. It is neither feasible nor practicable , it may just add an additional remorse to the person to worry about his "present experience" and "past actions", God should be merciful enough to allow just one , so called suffering, for one action

 

[ Assume that you were born blind, you have to lead a dark life, after your intense prayers, you come to know the reasons for your blindness is because you had made another person blind in your earlier life out of your greediness , so now you have to "suffer" blindness as well as "suffer" why did you make other person blind in last life , also may be "wonder" what has happened to that person in this life, next prayer, find out where he is approach him for help, try to create more trouble for him and the cycle goes on, so your statement, "we should know the past actions and the reason for this life suffering(!)" does not sound a very bright idea to me ]

 

 

[QUTOE]

For example, if any human being is suffering in this life because of his bad-actionsof past lives, then how can he realize for which action he is suffering. There is no specific set of rules known to us to measure the amount of sin but we can imagin/experience the result of single and simple action of ours. The result of complex actions of ours that too collectively can not be measured by human intelligence.

[Guest guest]

 

If God is everywhere, he controls everything, i.e. he is isvara, then what is sin?.

 

Hari OM

 

The next level of answer which is more subtle and complex

 

Yes God is everywhere (Vishnu means one who is everywhere)

 

But what is the basis for the statement "he controls everything"

 

In Gita He says "I don't determine the actions of men, nor their fruits, it is nature alone that works"

 

So He can be said to have created every "thing", including humans, and all other "things" which are required for the survival of the first "things" and a law that how one "thing" should use other "thing" [can be called scriptures or vedas].

 

Every thing is ok as long as it follows the rule but once it starts flouting the rules , then the rules themselves (i.e., the natural causes) start to restrict/control that thing

 

For a more clear example.

 

When we feel hungry ( a naturally imposed need), we can either eat one fruit, a glass of milk or highly exotic dosas or pizzas (a pleasure). The need gives the body neccessary energy for survival, while the pleasure gives excess energy which damages some parts of the body with unneccessary things. If you follow the scriptures of having Fasting on all Ekadasis your pleasure centre would be under control and you will maintain a healthy body else your pleasure centre will take control and you will suffer from diabetes, bp or some diseases (we can't say here God keeps the fasting body healthy and gives diseases to the eating bodies, it is nature alone that functions, otherwise the question of why God gave senses, sense objects and finally punish us for using them)

 

Same would apply for all Needs (like thirst--> water or coke, sex---> wife or prostitute), when you convert all Needs to pleasure and does not follow the scriptures for maintaing a control on the pleasure center then the pleasure centre takes control over you and destorys your body, mind and limits your spiritual growth. This is called "punishment".

 

There are many ways to overcome this entanglement (almost 99% present of our current population is entangled), the main method for this Yuga is the Bhakti Yoga, where you offer all the Pleasures to Him and not trying to usurp anything for your selves. This is said to be fastest, surest and safest way to come out of the pleasure centre entanglement.

[Guest guest]

A fortunate human being can know which past action for which they are presently suffering by reading the classical texts in both Hindusim and devotional Tibetan Buddhism, which is based upon Hinduism, which very clearly and specifically state which reaction goes with what action.

 

One such text is The Jewel Ornament of Liberation by sGam.po.pa translated by Herbert V Guenther, 1971 Shambala Press, Berkeley CA. This work draws upon over 108 Sanskrit texts, as well as texts written in Tibetan and Pali languages, which very clearly state the laws of karma and its result.

 

 

 

All of the hellish states of consciousness are described very specifically in great detail in Chapter 5: The Vicious State of Samsara.

 

Chapter 6, Karma and Its Result, very clearly describes the results of non-meritorious aka impious activities [papa]. Classifications are: Murder, Theft, Sexual Misconduct, Telling Lies, Calumny, Words that Hurt, Idle Talk, Covetousness, Wickedness, Erroneous Views. Within each classification are three subcategories of offenses, which vary in intensity and severity.

 

Chapter 7, Benevolence and Compassion, describes the results of meritorious acts, by which we obtain punya and sukritya.

 

 

 

In Chapter 6: Karma and its Result, which is based upon the Sanskrit text Abhidharmakosa, it very clearly states that:

 

"Karma operates by itself in the results produced by it. It ripens into the psychosomatic constituents of him who commits the deed, but nowhere else. As it is stated in Abhidharmasamuccaya p. 61

 

"What is ascription of Karma? It is the experience of the fruition

of the Karma one has done oneself. Being dissimilar to others it

is called one's own.

 

and also:

 

"Except when a counter-action to a particular Karma to be experienced is done and will be experiences, the result is never lost or spent without maturing. EVEN THOSE WHO FOR A LONG TIME HAVE BEEN LULLED INTO

SECURITY, will feel the result of whatever deed they have committed...

 

"Therefore we are terrified by the misery of Samsara and begin to believe in...Karma and its results..."

 

 

 

I realize that perhaps some persons have never had the good fortune of reading any of these amazing texts, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Robert Thurman has also written a book summarizing the results of both good and impious activities; however to my knowledge the text mentioned above contains the most complete description of hells, impious acts and their consequences, as well as pious acts and their results that I have ever encountered in any religion.

 

 

 

You can also understand the karma for which you are suffering or enjoying in this life by learning how to read your astrological chart. The astrological chart addresses each specific individual case even more completely.

 

Unless we flawlessly execute some activity which stops the wheel of karma from turning altogether, Karma ripens in this lifetime either immediately, or in the future of this life, or at some unknown future time. You might say, "Well that is weird; why doesn't it all happen right away?"

 

The reason why is that if you knew when the resultant Karma was coming, then if you are a young soul, your crafty mind thinks, "Aww shucks, I can outsmart God", then try to anticipate it and mitigate it. Young souls are not sober-minded. However, as you progress on the path you become a medium soul when you get a taste or two or three of "Murphy's Law":

 

 

 

"If anything can go wrong, it will: and at the worst possible time in the worst possible way." Or, Alana Morrisette's song "Jagged Little Pill" says the same thing: "Life has a funny way of helping you out" she quips very sardonically.

 

So when you mature as a soul and you start getting this heavy kind of karmic repercussions of things happening to you at worst possible time in worst possible way, then you start sobering up about Life the Great Experience. You start to think, "Hmmm I need to learn how to start flowing along in Harmony with Life and learn how to dance WITH the music, cuz it ain't no fun pretending to have fun dancing along by myself out of step and wrong beat."

 

Then that is when you start to meet Sri Guru and His Friends, and learn how to dance with Shiva, or dance with Krsna, or whatever tradition speaks to your heart and makes the most sense. You learn how to move with the Force and become one with the Force like Luke Skywalker.

 

 

 

Old souls also have a desire to "Curb the Enthusiasm" of young souls who commit the non-meritorious acts mentioned above. There is a desire because we gain punya and sukritya by exercising compassion. A compassionate person understands the Laws of Karma and they want to keep the errant persons from creating even more and more kukarmas, negative karmas.

 

Also a compassionate person desires to protect the weak and innocent, another source of punya and sukritya. That is why compassionate people try to educate others about karma and try to stop others from committing kukarmas. Compassionate people are the old souls in any society.

 

 

 

In addition, many persons who commit non-meritorious acts are mentally challenged and/ or suffer from psychological disorders that prevent them from understanding that they have done anything wrong in the first place. That is yet another reason why in any society compassionate people don't wish to allow persons to create more and more kukarmas. Such compassionate people also try to educate and rehabilitate the person if it is possible.

 

Compassion is the principle way that human beings obtain merit or punya and sukritya: by exercising karuna and maitri, compassion and loving-kindness.

 

 

 

Thus it can be said that there are only experiences: some are benefic/ meritorious and others non-meritorius or hurtful, harmful, and painful. Old souls don't feel comfortable allowing young souls to wreak havoc in society because they are compassionate from having already reincarnated into every possible human situation. Old souls educate and intervene because young souls don't yet have the soul knowledge or the willpower to intuitively know why they should restrain themselves.

 

To further inform the discussion on how the concept of laws, crime, criminals and appropriate punishments has changed over time, you might want to read Crime and Punishment by Foucault.

[gHari]

Conditioning

Skinner box. Pain versus pleasure. Acceptance - rejection. Reward - Punishment. Food or electric shock. Pavlov's dogs.

 

Training dogs. Training souls. Jump through hoops. Sit. Roll over. Play dead.

 

 

Escaping the Conditioning

harer nAma harer nAma

harer nAmaiva kevalam

kalau nAsty eva nAsty eva

nAsty eva gatir anyathA

[Redsox]

 

 

No one should worship an idol. If you see the Deity as stone or silver then you would be worshipping an idol. But if you perceive Him and worship Him as the Deity that is perfect realization.

 

You can worship God IN the stone just as you can worship God in your body but if you worship the stone itself or your body itself that is idol worship. We can also worship God in each other as well as ourselves. Indeed the self realized soul sees Him everywhere. From this angle everyone plant animal human demigod or demon are all temples of the Lord. This is why we should never hate anyone or anything because of the presence of the Lord.

 

This is a very advanced stage and we can't fake it. The Deity gives the beginner a focal point but from there his consciousness must expand. The Lord says that if we worship Him in the temple but neglect Him within the hearts of others we can never please Him by the Deity worship. However practice makes perfect and even though we are presently far from the perfect stage we must go on towards the goal.

Hare Krsna

 

Now that makes alot of sense actually, thank you.

[Redsox]

 

Conditioning

 

Skinner box. Pain versus pleasure. Acceptance - rejection. Reward - Punishment. Food or electric shock. Pavlov's dogs.

 

Training dogs. Training souls. Jump through hoops. Sit. Roll over. Play dead.

 

 

Escaping the Conditioning

 

harer nAma harer nAma

harer nAmaiva kevalam

kalau nAsty eva nAsty eva

nAsty eva gatir anyathA

 

 

 

I have a few problems with this. If we have free will , then we are not like trained dogs. Your conditioning "traning dogs. Traning souls" example shows that we have no free will. If so, we are trained to live our lives in the misery of material world, and cannot choose between the material world and the spiritual world. So if the souls are like dogs then they cannot do anything until God himself takes them out of that position, and trains them differently. ya?