God , Sin & Punishment

[Redsox]

 

There are many ways to overcome this entanglement (almost 99% present of our current population is entangled), the main method for this Yuga is the Bhakti Yoga, where you offer all the Pleasures to Him and not trying to usurp anything for your selves. This is said to be fastest, surest and safest way to come out of the pleasure centre entanglement.

 

Ok, the next question will be how to apply our pleasures to God. Lets take the "desire to eat strawberry ice-cream". Please tell me how you would apply this to God.

[Redsox]

 

In addition, many persons who commit non-meritorious acts are mentally challenged and/ or suffer from psychological disorders that prevent them from understanding that they have done anything wrong in the first place. That is yet another reason why in any society compassionate people don't wish to allow persons to create more and more kukarmas. Such compassionate people also try to educate and rehabilitate the person if it is possible.

 

I do not know about this. I know many intelligent, brilliant people who are complete assholes. I have also worked with mentally retarded people who are a delight to have around. So I do not believe mentally challenged folk are somehow "evil" .

There may have been cases where a person suffering from mental disorder might do something out of his/her control, but that does not necessarily mean that all individuals belong to this category.

 

Also, I do not think you are right when you say "compassionate" people try to stop other's 'kukarma' (from skim reading your post: kukarma= Bad karma). I consider myself compassionate, but I am not running around trying to save people from committing evil acts. There are policemen who do that.

 

Compassion is the principle way that human beings obtain merit or punya and sukritya: by exercising karuna and maitri, compassion and loving-kindness.

There is another problem with this. What is compassion? In the lab, medicinal chemists synthesize new drugs and inject them into animals to find side effects. Sometimes the animal (a rat, mouse or rabbit) may die, but there is also a possibility that this drug may help diabetic patients or Aids patients or even other animals. Where is compassion in this case? How is it compassion if you make animals blind on purpose just to study blindness in humans? or dump them in ethanol just to dissect them and study more into their anatomy? In our lab, we have great respect for these animals and believe that we are sacrificing them for a greater cause, but how are we showing compassion to these animals?

 

if you buy this drug in the future, are you not also responsible for the deaths of so many animals? Yet , there are millions of people whose lives are saved because of such sacrifices. Am I gaining punya in that case?

[gHari]

 

I have a few problems with this. If we have free will , then we are not like trained dogs. Your conditioning "traning dogs. Traning souls" example shows that we have no free will. If so, we are trained to live our lives in the misery of material world, and cannot choose between the material world and the spiritual world. So if the souls are like dogs then they cannot do anything until God himself takes them out of that position, and trains them differently. ya?

Yeper. The conditioned soul enjoys only the illusion of free will. But really it's just eons of conditioning to accept/reject based on the total accumulation of experiences.

 

Neo of Nama Loka

[Redsox]

ok Neo ... i did not expect you to blatantly agree with me. So what you are saying is- we have no choice but to live and wait for God to rescue us from 'repeated birth and death'. Then what is the point of chanting hare krishna?

[ananda]

ok Neo ... i did not expect you to blatantly agree with me. So what you are saying is- we have no choice but to live and wait for God to rescue us from 'repeated birth and death'. Then what is the point of chanting hare krishna?

 

Simple, the difference is between a ordinary man seeking sense enjoyment and a devotee.

 

The difference is between a man who realises his current position and calls out the Lord's name (Hare Krishna chanting) to save him and a man who does not call (not chanting) and dies and borns again.

 

So, Krishna will come only if we WILL (dovetail our will with Krishna's will) and chanting shows us the way, purifies us to go to Krishna and the rest Krishna will do.

 

We only chant, Krishna will take care of the rest!

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[theist]

 

Conditioning

Skinner box. Pain versus pleasure. Acceptance - rejection. Reward - Punishment. Food or electric shock. Pavlov's dogs.

 

Training dogs. Training souls. Jump through hoops. Sit. Roll over. Play dead.

 

 

Escaping the Conditioning

harer nAma harer nAma

harer nAmaiva kevalam

kalau nAsty eva nAsty eva

nAsty eva gatir anyathA

 

LOL Succinctly said gHari!

 

Bow wow....er..I mean... Hare Krsna.

[gHari]

This is all so wonderful; I am without words. Krsna places the seed of devotion in your heart and the transformation begins.

 

http://geocities.com/caitanyamahaprabhu/download.htm

[theist]

 

Now that makes alot of sense actually, thank you.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Re: the points raised, I believe I said "many" [not "all"] re: "mentally challenged" who don't realize that they have done anything wrong.

 

I agree with you that this would include brilliant people who are complete a_ _holes. Their mentally challenged condition, in my opinion, ranges from possible low EQ or Emotional Intelligence to Psychological Disorder such as Anti-Social Personality Disorder or sociopath.

 

I agree with you that in fact many great souls may appear to be clinically "mentally challenged" individuals. Some saints even externally appeared to be "retarded" in the Gaudiya tradition. In fact I believe Theist posted a quote in "Lucid Dreamer" that a self-realized person may appear to be "retarded" to others.

 

Two examples come to mind: Jada Bharat and also one of their saints [Gaura Kisore das Babaji?] who insisted on living in restroom to avoid company of worldly people. Many teachers in traditions that believe in reincarnation hold that such souls are in their last lifetime on earth.

 

I agree with you that some of the nicest people I have ever met are autistic, and at the same time some of the scariest people I have ever met are clinically diagnosed autistic with ASPD [conduct disorder continuum].

 

 

 

My comment re: "mentally challenged" persons was in response to post #19 where it was stated that:

 

"But the evil-doer should ***realize*** for which bad action he is suffering."

 

I was thinking: that is not always possible for an "evil-doer" to do. Say in a case that we can all agree is evil, a murderer, in cases where the person doesn't have any idea that they did anything wrong, the "insanity defense".

 

 

 

 

Re: "a compassionate person tries to stop other's kukarmas" I was thinking that this would primarily occur in the realm of education. I was thinking of any organization or individual person where they are educating others in a preventative way how not to generate kukarmas. Such as most of the regulars on this forum.

 

I was thinking primarily about people who educate others about spiritual life, vegetarian diet, environmental awareness, and so on. I was thinking about pacifists who work for world peace, such as Gandhi who gained freedom for his country using nonviolence, and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. who educated people about racial and ethnic harmony and encouraged non-violence.

 

Also I was thinking about Mother Teresa who taught people how to "love thy neighbor as thyself" by opening a home for lepers in Calcutta. She was an educator teaching people that we need to take care of everyone in society, thus preventing people from engaging in the kukarma [non-meritorious act] of the neglect of society's most vulnerable members.

 

 

 

Using education as one's life work, the sincere religious workers are teaching others how to chant mantras [or what have you] which ends the cycle of birth and death. They might be running around [your words] doing it in an overly aggressive way or not.

 

Through education as one's life work, the vegetarian awareness people are teaching others how not to kill animals for their sustenance. Killing is a major source of kukarma. They might be running around doing it in an aggro manner [as you mentioned] or doing it quietly.

 

The environmental awareness people use education to teach people how not to kill the ecosystems. Killing life is a major source of kukarma. Through education, again can be aggro and running around or doing it quietly.

 

The racial harmony people the same, they are preventing lynching and hate crimes, kukarmas all. The nonviolent peace activists who urge leaders of nations to negotiate with words versus weapons the same.

 

 

 

You mentioned the police; the safest neighborhoods in some countries are those that have a Community Watch or Guardian Angels posse, in which a group of citizens daily and nightly patrols the neighborhood and reporting crime to the police. These compassionate people want a safe place to raise their children and for the elderly to live, and by their presence on foot they make sure their neighborhood is safe from crime.

 

The police cannot do it alone in some countries. Neighborhood Watch is not "running around"; they are just in their house and picking up the phone

when they see suspicious activity. And the Guardian Angels are not running around, they are just walking the entire neighborhood letting people know they are there: the way it used to be done in the old days.

 

 

 

I feel that all of these activities are different examples of compassionate people and that there are many, many different ways, countless ways, that compassionate people can help others to avoid kukarmas by engaging in non-meritorious acts.

 

Even the engineers who make our buildings safe. In ancient India it was a sin to construct an edifice without consulting the Silpin Sastra. The stpathis and the silpins were like the structural engineers and the architects of their day. If you make sure the buildings, roads, and bridges are safe then that helps

people keep from constructing unsafe dwellings that kill people.

 

Every profession has compassionate people, I believe: honest lawyers are preventing the kukarma of persecuting the innocent. That is what I meant by compassionate people, or old souls, help others to avoid kukarmas: just as a

general statement.

 

 

 

As far as your example of animal testing, if I am not mistaken: such a person would achieve a mixed result of both papa and punya. She or he would receive some punya for the intention of preserving the life of others, as well as for the taking of life. I'm not God so I don't know for sure! But judging by the revealed scriptures of the world, these are the two general basic guidelines that are mentioned in Jewel Ornament of Liberation:

 

TEN MERITORIOUS ACTS -- from Sanskrit text Ratnavali

1 positive acts

2 preserve the life of others

3 make lavish gifts

4 lead a chaste life

5 speak the truth

6 reconcile enemies

7 speak meaningful words quietly and sincerely

8 have fews desires and are content

9 develop benevolence and compassion attentively

10 enter Reality

 

So as a general guideline you can probably use this as a rubric or checklist to see if any act meets the criteria for meritorius acts which earn punya or sukritya, then adjust it for your own tradition that you are studying.

 

Thank you for your very intelligent comments.

[Guest guest]

 

Ok, the next question will be how to apply our pleasures to God. Lets take the "desire to eat strawberry ice-cream". Please tell me how you would apply this to God.

 

Hari OM

 

Yes this is a more confusing and complicated part.

 

i will tell my experience, can't guarantee it will work in your case.

 

i used to be a bag of carnial sexy lusty pleasures, always get exicted at sexual (books, films, internet...) , when i started studying scriptural books (like Gita, some acharyas commentaries ,etc.,) i started to realize that i am wasting my time, energy and efforts in trivial pleasures (even though i didn't feel it is a crime or sin).

 

So i tried to control my urge for sexual things (at that time i didn't have much idea about need and pleasure centres), but i failed many times miserably, the more harder i tried the more difficult it became.

 

But i continued to study the scriptures and do meditations with presrevarance and without losing hope.

 

one day suddenly i got (or He gave) an idea to approach this problem differently. on that day instead trying to control the urge to see a xxx film, i started seeing it but also kept on chanting HK as much as possible, also i kept remainding me to myself that it was He who has created all this beauty in the world, and also it was He who gave senses and mind to enjoy this beauty, so i will neither try to control this enjoyment nor try to grab all for myself, i will enjoy but give all the resulant pleasure to him. And believe me half way through the film i lost interest in that and whenever now i get an excitment, my mind automatically starts chanting and no tension, frustration occurs.

 

Also on that day i realised the need and pleasure centres operating in the body. Plus i could also understand that He does not gives His devotees an exception from the law, rather the law is eternal but He gives His devotees the clear knowledge, strength and resolve to abide by that law come what may.

 

i think this is what is meant in Gita that one who sits ideal but mentally dwells on sense objects is a Hypocrite.

 

All Hypocrites (those who are really after sense objects and its pleasure inwardly but take God's name outwardly) , even if they achieve victory by their steadfast effort, skills, organization, luck... can't achieve happiness, the more they become victorious the more they became depressed.

 

There are only mainly two ways as stated in Gita

 

1) By unflattering concentration, try and understand all the sense objects and the pleasure are trivial and worthless (Gnana Yoga)

 

2) Whatever you Do, eat...., always remember that it is He who is the final enjoyer of everything you are just a comission agent to carry the enjoyment until Him. So do all things to the best of your ability and when the enjoyment (the fruit of your actions) comes, remember that this enjoyment is meant for Him and you are only the instrument (Nimita mathram) and try to remain in controlled mood as much as possible. (karma +Bhakti Yoga)

 

Note: please don't come back again and ask will this succeed or how will it succeed etc.., if you are interested in this take the effort with full faith on Him, and also whatever happens after that (success, failure, pleasure, pain) take it as offered by Him for your efforts and accept it gladly.

[Redsox]

thats very interesting, I guess we all have our own ways of dealing with issues. Hopefully , the ultimate goal is God. Thank you for sharing your personal experiences and Hari Om.

[theist]

 

Ok, the next question will be how to apply our pleasures to God. Lets take the "desire to eat strawberry ice-cream". Please tell me how you would apply this to God.

 

This is not a confusing question. The first principle is to acknowledge God in everything. A simple thing is to appreciate that Strawberry ice-cream like everything else is kindly made avaulable to us by God. Therefore a thank you is in order.

 

This type of thinking should expand in our contemplations to include realizing that our very sense of taste has been given to us by God. This type of thinking will lead us to the conclusion that we are 100% dependent on the Lord in all circumstances, both materially as well as spiritually.

 

Another angle is that we can take our favorite treats like ice-cream and offer them first to Krsna. Eventually we will find more pleasure in offering to Krsna than we could ever experience from the ice cream alone.

 

These are ways that we can re-form our consciousness from the illusion of thinking we are independent from Krsna to realizing that we are His eternal servants.

 

Every breath we take is grace along with every drink of water. By becoming mindful of how everything is connected to Krsna we become Krsna conscious (conscious of Krsna).