Guest guest Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Namaste Michael-ji , I enjoyed your questions. Descartes progress through his "Meditations" took some interesting twists and turns. He started by assuming a position whereby he doubted everything, including the verifiability of the waking state, to arrive at his famous 'I think therefore I am.' This being the one thing he could not doubt. If I understood him correctly, he then went on to say that if one could have a clear and distinct idea that was free of vagueness and confusion then such an idea was not a deceptive idea (eg "I think therefore I am."). Thus what it refers to must be true, this being the case with *any* clear and distinct idea. This led him to assert that because he could have a clear and distinct idea of God, this must also be a true idea and thus God must exist. Further, he maintained, we can rely on the fact that clear and distinct ideas are true, because they don't really come from us, but from God - who is no deceiver. As for the external world - once our perceptions, including and some of the contradictions given in those perceptions, have been corrected and clarified by clear and distinct ideas, then we can trust our perceptions of the world to be real. So from doubting everything he went on to assert that both God and the world really existed. Please correct any mistakes of mine re the above. The two questions of yours that stood out for me were: "Is it possible to rationally distinguish the fundamental difference in orientation to the problem of consciousness that issues in such clear divergence?" And... "There in a nutshell, by which they are bounded, is one version of Advaita. Very well, but is it Advaitic? If not, why not?" I am hoping very much that you are going to share your own thoughts on these. Best wishes, Peter ________________________________ advaitin [advaitin] On Behalf Of ombhurbhuva 25 October 2006 11:13 advaitin Sridakshinamurtistotram (Part IX -e) Subbuji wrote: The tripuTI, triad - the dRRik (seer), chitta (the mind) and dRRishya (the seen object) - is experienced in dream as much as it is experienced in the waking. The distinction between the mind and the ideas therein, and the outside objects are there in the dream as in the waking. The instrumentality of the dream senses is also in evidence. The distinction between fancies of the mind, as for example, in day-dreaming and the so-called real objects outside, is maintained in the dream as also that between the real and the illusory, the latter being exemplified by the rope-snake. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Namaste Subbuji and all Advaitins, It's clear that Subbu is very committed to a particular view and is able to justify it following certain well known scriptures and commentaries. Others with equal access to the scriptures in the original; a point which he often stresses; take a different view. Is it possible to rationally distinguish the fundamental difference in orientation to the problem of consciousness that issues in such clear divergence? I believe so. By the way this view which is sometimes referred to by the slightly pejorative title of 'illusionism' was held by one of the greatest figures in European philosophy who founded a branch of mathematics, did major work in hydraulics, optics and vacuum theory, was a noted stylist in Latin and the vernacular as well as an advisor to the Queen of Sweden. He writes: "How often has it happened to me that in the night I dreamt that I found myself in this particular place, that I was dressed and seated near the fire, whilst in reality I was lying undressed in bed! At this moment it does indeed seem to me that it is with eyes awake that I am looking at this paper; that this head which I move is not asleep, that it is deliberately and of set purpose that I extend my hand and perceive it, what happens in sleep does not appear so clear nor so distinct as does all this. But in thinking over this I remind myself that on many occasions I have in sleep been deceived by similar illusions, and in dwelling carefully on this reflection I see so manifestly that there are no certain indications by which we may clearly distinguish wakefullness from sleep that I am lost in astonishment. And my astonishment is such that it is almost capable of persuading me that I now dream."(Descartes: First Meditation) I would say that this position is very easy to understand and that its genesis is easily traced. It is predicated on a certain type of personality which is dominated by inwardness, introspection and a powerful imagination for whom the world behind the knitted brow is as real as that which is palpable. I believe that I would not be going out on a limb if I suggested that this is a type not unheard of in the annals of yoga. As well as a natural propensity for introversion they would add that there is a rational basis for the assimilation of all states to one another. What is it, they would ask, we are immediately acquainted with? Our perceptions? And what are perceptions but the mental analogue of the busy neuronal traffic which is by definition intracerebral. From that base we make our inferences to the existence of an external world. The proof that such is the case is arises from our often being deluded about what is really out there. That in short is the basis for the melding together of all sorts of consciousness into the one undifferentiated consciousness which is the mayvic. This single consciousness is pure consciousness with the limiting adjunct of the mind. There in a nutshell, by which they are bounded, is one version of Advaita. Very well, but is it Advaitic? If not, why not? Best Wishes, Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 advaitin, "Peter" <not_2 wrote: > > > I enjoyed your questions. Descartes progress through his "Meditations" took > some interesting twists and turns. He started by assuming a position > whereby he doubted everything, including the verifiability of the waking > state, to arrive at his famous 'I think therefore I am.' This being the one > thing he could not doubt. An advaitin's view may be helpful in the discussion as expressed in Sw. Krishnananda's essay: http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/com/com_desc.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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