I had thought about stopping initiations last year.. Indradyumna Swami

[Guest guest]

Diary of a Traveling Preacher

 

Volume 7, Chapter 15

 

September 9 - 12, 2006

 

By Indradyumna Swami

 

"Bearing the Burden"

 

During the festival in Odessa, one of my aspiring disciples asked to see me.

Fifteen-year-old Radha Sakhi dasi was born into the Krsna consciousness

movement. When she was a child, I gave her a lot of attention and care, as I

do for many children, and while we talked, I could tell that such love had

borne fruit.

 

She told me that her mother had recently passed away, a few weeks after

suddenly coming down with a lung infection. Radha Sakhi was alone in taking

care of her and was with her when she died. Though shaken by her mother's

impending death she bravely collected herself, and put a Tulasi leaf into

her mother's mouth, poured Ganges water on her head, and loudly chanted the

Hare Krsna mantra into her ear.

 

"You did the right thing," I told Radha Sakhi. "Just as your mother brought

you into the world and helped you become Krsna conscious, so you helped your

mother to leave in the most auspicious circumstances. Mother and daughter

have proved themselves to be the best of family members by serving each

other's deepest interest: to return back to Godhead."

 

The day before I left, I initiated 10 people, bringing the number of my

disciples close to 2,000. The next morning as I was packing to leave, I had

a small seizure. My body stiffened, my neck and arms were full of intense

pain, and I couldn't speak. It lasted only a minute or two but left me

exhausted. As I went to lie on my bed I tried to understand why it had

happened.

 

"I am in good health," I thought.

 

Then I remembered that the same thing had happened two years ago, just after

another initiation. Although Tamala Krsna Maharaja once told me not to

attribute bad health solely to the karma of my disciples, I couldn't ignore

Srila Prabhupada's statement in Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, that a

spiritual master takes on the burden of the sinful activities of his

disciples.

 

"Krsna is so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others

and immediately make them right. But when a living entity plays the part on

behalf of Krsna, he also takes the responsibility for the sinful activities

of his devotees. Therefore to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He

has to take all the poisons and absorb them. So sometimes - because he is

not Krsna - sometimes there is some trouble"

 

[Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, Chapter 6]

 

I had thought about stopping initiations last year but decided to continue.

Now, as I lay on the bed, it became obvious that something had to change. I

decided that from now on I would accept disciples only if I knew them well

and had long-standing relationships with them. I would be more selective.

 

Then I got up to take a shower. While lathering I slipped and fell, hitting

my head hard on the floor. I was knocked out for a few moments. Then I woke

up and stumbled back to the bed.

 

"That makes my decision even more firm," I thought.

 

That afternoon a young man approached me with a letter of recommendation

from his temple president asking me to accept the boy as an aspiring

disciple. I politely refused. Word spread quickly.

 

After the festival, I left with my Russian disciple and translator,

Uttama-sloka das. Dressed in dhotis, we flew from Odessa to Kiev, where we

would catch a plane to Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan, Uttama-sloka's

native country. It is a small Muslim country on the Caspian Sea bordered by

Russia, Iran, Georgia, and Armenia.

 

At the airport in Kiev I ran into Prabhavisnu Swami, who was on his way to

another region in the CIS. "Are you going into a Muslim country dressed like

that?" he asked.

 

I had been in a hurry when I left Odessa, and it hadn't occurred to me that

it might be wiser to travel in conventional clothes.

 

The trip had been organized months in advance, but because of the outdated

communications in Azerbaijan we had not been able to contact the temple or

local devotees for weeks.

 

"It's like flying into the unknown," I said to Uttama-sloka.

 

"We don't even know who's picking us up," he said with a half-hearted laugh,

"or where we'll be staying or even if they'll have prasadam ready."

 

"I love it," I said. "This is sannyasa: completely dependent upon the Lord."

 

But the love wasn't without apprehension. I felt nervous as I mulled over

Prabhavisnu Swami's comment about my clothes. I recalled the last time I

visited Azerbaijan two years ago, when an official had demanded a

hundred-dollar bribe as I departed.

 

I turned to Uttama-sloka "Do any tourists ever go to Azerbaijan?" I asked.

 

He laughed.

 

I looked around the cabin. I saw only Azerbaijanis, silently staring back at

me.

 

I turned to Uttama-sloka. "There's a heavy mood in here," I said.

 

Toward the end of the flight, as I was nervously arranging my documents for

entry, I noticed a large man sitting across the aisle, wearing a black coat

and sporting a big mustache. He suddenly turned to me. "Hare Krsna!" he said

loudly.

 

I don't know who was more startled, I or the other passengers.

 

"Are they going to wash your feet when you arrive at the temple?" he asked

in a booming voice. He was speaking Azerbaijani, and Uttama-sloka

translated.

 

Everyone looked at me, and I wasn't sure how to reply. Either way would

confirm that washing the feet of distinguished guests was part of the

tradition I followed. I doubted any of the passengers had ever heard of such

a thing. Then the same man came to my rescue.

 

"It's not our Islamic custom," he said, "but nevertheless it is your

tradition's way of honoring guests. And respecting guests is very much part

of Islamic culture."

 

I took a quick look around and saw a number of people nodding their heads in

agreement.

 

"How do you know about this?" I said.

 

He laughed. "I used to live next to your temple in Baku," he said. "Every

time a guru would come I would watch the reception from my window. You are

good people. You love Allah with a passion."

 

I looked around the cabin again. Everyone was smiling at me. All my

misgivings vanished.

 

When we landed, the other passengers stepped back to let me take my baggage

out of the overhead compartment. Some motioned that I should go forward and

be the first to leave the plane.

 

The woman at the immigration desk smiled and asked if I was going to stay at

the Hare Krsna temple. When customs officials asked if I had any goods to

declare, I replied that I didn't. One of them smiled. "But do you have any

Hare Krsna baklava?" he said, referring to a traditional Middle-Eastern

sweet.

 

"No," I said. "I'm sorry, I don't."

 

"Make sure you have some on the way out," he said. "We work both directions,

coming and going."

 

As I walked toward the exit I looked up and saw a sign: "Welcome to the

country where it is a tradition to serve and respect guests."

 

I chuckled. "Things have certainly improved since my last visit," I thought.

 

When Uttama-sloka and I left the terminal we were greeted by about 50

devotees. As I walked along, the devotees gave me flowers and garlands,

which I immediately distributed to the many curious Azerbaijanis watching.

Each time I offered someone a flower I would greet him. "Salaam aleikum," I

would say. "Peace be unto you."

 

"Wa aleikum salaam," they would reply, wishing me the same.

 

I marveled at being so openly received in a devout Muslim country.

 

As we drove to the temple, I spoke to my disciple Sahadeva dasa. "Things

have changed," I said.

 

"Yes and no," he said. "The government wants to join the European Union, so

it is welcoming foreigners and making it easy to come and go. It wants

foreign investment and US dollars for its large oil reserves."

 

Then he lowered his voice, as if out of habit, "But the government is very

corrupt," he said. "The officials keep most of the money and the people

remain poor. I won't say more."

 

I looked out at the city. It appeared much as it did when I first came, in

1992.

 

"What is the population?" I asked.

 

"Eight million," said Sahadeva, "but 20 million Azerbaijanis live next door

in Iran."

 

"How is that?" I asked.

 

"Gasoline costs one US cent a liter in Iran and bread is practically free,"

he said.

 

I was happy to be back. Baku is one of my favorite places for preaching. I

can never get over the fact that I can preach freely there, in the midst of

the Muslim world. All of my 25 disciples in Azerbaijan were born in Muslim

families, but no one opposed them when they joined the Hare Krsna movement.

 

The next morning, Sahadeva told me a bit of recent history. "Some years ago

the government cracked down on the 200 non-Muslim religious movements in the

country," he said. "We thought we were finished. But then it officially

registered 20 of them, including us."

 

"Why did it do that?" I said.

 

"The government was primarily concerned about the opposing political parties

using religion as a front," he said. "Many of the groups were merely facades

for political opposition. Because we're a purely spiritual movement with no

political intentions, the government had no complaints. But it did place

some stiff restrictions on us. After all, it is a Muslim country. It forbade

us to preach outside Baku, and we are not allowed to hold public programs.

People can only visit our temple. But we got permission to distribute Srila

Prabhupada's books anywhere we want in Baku."

 

I smiled. "Lord Caitanya's secret weapon," I said.

 

"People like us and know who we are," he said.

 

I got first-hand experience of that as we drove through the city. When we

stopped at a red light, two men walked by in front of our car. One man

turned to the other. "You see in that car?" he said. "It's a Hare Krsna

guru."

 

The next morning I was thinking of visiting the local hospital to follow up

on the seizure. But just as I was about to bring up the idea, I overheard

two devotees joking about the doctors in Azerbaijan. "When a patient goes to

the hospital," said one, "the doctors have to decide whether to treat the

patient or let him live."

 

I just kept quiet.

 

My heart goes out to the devotees in Azerbaijan. They preach in an isolated

part of the world and are rarely visited by senior devotees, so I decided to

go ahead with the initiations they had planned, although I knew little about

some of the candidates. I have always relied on temple presidents to

recommend disciples, just as Srila Prabhupada did.

 

Before the ceremony I asked to meet the candidates. One man in particular

caught my attention, as I had stayed at his house when I was in Azerbaijan

two years ago. He was originally from Iran, but he took up communism and

fled to Azerbaijan when it was a republic in the former Soviet Union. He

started a business in Baku and soon became wealthy.

 

Later he fell away from communism because he saw it failing. He turned again

to Islam and became a devout Muslim.

 

Then several years ago he met the devotees and was fascinated by the

philosophy of Bhagavad-gita. He was impressed by the temple programs but

hesitated to fully surrender because of his attachment to wealth. He then

went to India, on a pilgrimage to learn more about Krsna consciousness.

Overwhelmed by the beauty and transcendental atmosphere of Vrindavan, he

decided to become a devotee. I was in Vrindavan at the same time, and one

day he approached me and asked to become an aspiring disciple.

 

That night he prayed to Sri Sri Radha-Syamasundara at our temple and asked

Them to take away any impediments to his Krsna consciousness. After he

returned to Azerbaijan, his business failed, and he started a smaller one

that brought in less money but gave him more free time.

 

"How do you use that free time?" I asked. I wanted to see how serious he

was.

 

"I use it to chant between 32 and 64 rounds a day," he said.

 

At the initiation ceremony, I mentioned that his life was simpler than when

I first met him. "Allah always gave me what I wanted," he said, "but Krsna

took everything away and left me only the shelter of His lotus feet."

 

Everyone smiled.

 

"I can easily bear the burden of a few more disciples like this," I thought.

I handed him his beads and gave him the name Nilacala-candra das.

 

"Caitanya Mahaprabhu has forbidden, 'Don't make many siksas, many

disciples.' But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples - for

expanding preaching - even if we suffer. That's a fact. The spiritual master

has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his

disciples. Therefore to make many disciples is a risky job unless one is

able to assimilate all the sins."

 

[Perfect Questions Perfect Answers, Chapter 6]

 

 

Indradyumna.swami (AT) pamho (DOT) net

www.traveling-preacher.com

Official website for Diary of a Traveling Preacher

[theist]

Thanks for link to the traveling preacher series. Somehow I had stopped reading his entries a couple years ago but now I can pick it up again. It's impossible not to appreciate a wonderful Vaisnava like Indrayumna Swami.

[sanatan]

I also like Indradumnya Maharaja's diary very much. He was here in my home city a year or so ago and it was nice to see and hear him in person.

[Kulapavana]

Indradyumna Maharaja clearly shows here that you dont need GW Bush and his "bomb the Muslims" campaign to preach KC in Muslim countries. All you have to do is humbly present the non-sectarian nature of pure Krsna consciousness and not get involved in politics.

 

too bad some devotees keep promoting their own brand of pseudo-vedic religion.

[Bhakta Harry]

There is no directive anywhere from Srila Prabhupada that any of his disciples are authorised to act as initiating Gurus, including Indradyumna Swami; rather, the only directive ever issued by Srila Prabhupada on the future of initiations in ISKCON was the July 9th 1977 Letter to all GBCs and Temple Presidents, which only authorises ritviks, or representatives, who are meant to initiate new disciples on behalf of and for Srila Prabhupada – an instruction repeated no less than three times in this one document!

This very guru system of which Indradyumna Swami hold membership, is completely unauthorized and in direct disobedience to Srila Prabhupada’s instructions.

[krishnadasa]

 

Diary of a Traveling Preacher

 

Volume 7, Chapter 15

 

September 9 - 12, 2006

 

By Indradyumna Swami

 

"Bearing the Burden"

 

During the festival in Odessa, one of my aspiring disciples asked to see me.

Fifteen-year-old Radha Sakhi dasi was born into the Krsna consciousness

movement. When she was a child, I gave her a lot of attention and care, as I

do for many children, and while we talked, I could tell that such love had

borne fruit.

 

She told me that her mother had recently passed away, a few weeks after

suddenly coming down with a lung infection. Radha Sakhi was alone in taking

care of her and was with her when she died. Though shaken by her mother's

impending death she bravely collected herself, and put a Tulasi leaf into

her mother's mouth, poured Ganges water on her head, and loudly chanted the

Hare Krsna mantra into her ear.

 

"You did the right thing," I told Radha Sakhi. "Just as your mother brought

you into the world and helped you become Krsna conscious, so you helped your

mother to leave in the most auspicious circumstances. Mother and daughter

have proved themselves to be the best of family members by serving each

other's deepest interest: to return back to Godhead."

 

The day before I left, I initiated 10 people, bringing the number of my

disciples close to 2,000. The next morning as I was packing to leave, I had

a small seizure. My body stiffened, my neck and arms were full of intense

pain, and I couldn't speak. It lasted only a minute or two but left me

exhausted. As I went to lie on my bed I tried to understand why it had

happened.

 

"I am in good health," I thought.

 

Then I remembered that the same thing had happened two years ago, just after

another initiation. Although Tamala Krsna Maharaja once told me not to

attribute bad health solely to the karma of my disciples, I couldn't ignore

Srila Prabhupada's statement in Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, that a

spiritual master takes on the burden of the sinful activities of his

disciples.

 

"Krsna is so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others

and immediately make them right. But when a living entity plays the part on

behalf of Krsna, he also takes the responsibility for the sinful activities

of his devotees. Therefore to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He

has to take all the poisons and absorb them. So sometimes - because he is

not Krsna - sometimes there is some trouble"

 

[Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, Chapter 6]

 

I had thought about stopping initiations last year but decided to continue.

Now, as I lay on the bed, it became obvious that something had to change. I

decided that from now on I would accept disciples only if I knew them well

and had long-standing relationships with them. I would be more selective.

 

Then I got up to take a shower. While lathering I slipped and fell, hitting

my head hard on the floor. I was knocked out for a few moments. Then I woke

up and stumbled back to the bed.

 

"That makes my decision even more firm," I thought.

 

That afternoon a young man approached me with a letter of recommendation

from his temple president asking me to accept the boy as an aspiring

disciple. I politely refused. Word spread quickly.

 

After the festival, I left with my Russian disciple and translator,

Uttama-sloka das. Dressed in dhotis, we flew from Odessa to Kiev, where we

would catch a plane to Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan, Uttama-sloka's

native country. It is a small Muslim country on the Caspian Sea bordered by

Russia, Iran, Georgia, and Armenia.

 

At the airport in Kiev I ran into Prabhavisnu Swami, who was on his way to

another region in the CIS. "Are you going into a Muslim country dressed like

that?" he asked.

 

I had been in a hurry when I left Odessa, and it hadn't occurred to me that

it might be wiser to travel in conventional clothes.

 

The trip had been organized months in advance, but because of the outdated

communications in Azerbaijan we had not been able to contact the temple or

local devotees for weeks.

 

"It's like flying into the unknown," I said to Uttama-sloka.

 

"We don't even know who's picking us up," he said with a half-hearted laugh,

"or where we'll be staying or even if they'll have prasadam ready."

 

"I love it," I said. "This is sannyasa: completely dependent upon the Lord."

 

But the love wasn't without apprehension. I felt nervous as I mulled over

Prabhavisnu Swami's comment about my clothes. I recalled the last time I

visited Azerbaijan two years ago, when an official had demanded a

hundred-dollar bribe as I departed.

 

I turned to Uttama-sloka "Do any tourists ever go to Azerbaijan?" I asked.

 

He laughed.

 

I looked around the cabin. I saw only Azerbaijanis, silently staring back at

me.

 

I turned to Uttama-sloka. "There's a heavy mood in here," I said.

 

Toward the end of the flight, as I was nervously arranging my documents for

entry, I noticed a large man sitting across the aisle, wearing a black coat

and sporting a big mustache. He suddenly turned to me. "Hare Krsna!" he said

loudly.

 

I don't know who was more startled, I or the other passengers.

 

"Are they going to wash your feet when you arrive at the temple?" he asked

in a booming voice. He was speaking Azerbaijani, and Uttama-sloka

translated.

 

Everyone looked at me, and I wasn't sure how to reply. Either way would

confirm that washing the feet of distinguished guests was part of the

tradition I followed. I doubted any of the passengers had ever heard of such

a thing. Then the same man came to my rescue.

 

"It's not our Islamic custom," he said, "but nevertheless it is your

tradition's way of honoring guests. And respecting guests is very much part

of Islamic culture."

 

I took a quick look around and saw a number of people nodding their heads in

agreement.

 

"How do you know about this?" I said.

 

He laughed. "I used to live next to your temple in Baku," he said. "Every

time a guru would come I would watch the reception from my window. You are

good people. You love Allah with a passion."

 

I looked around the cabin again. Everyone was smiling at me. All my

misgivings vanished.

 

When we landed, the other passengers stepped back to let me take my baggage

out of the overhead compartment. Some motioned that I should go forward and

be the first to leave the plane.

 

The woman at the immigration desk smiled and asked if I was going to stay at

the Hare Krsna temple. When customs officials asked if I had any goods to

declare, I replied that I didn't. One of them smiled. "But do you have any

Hare Krsna baklava?" he said, referring to a traditional Middle-Eastern

sweet.

 

"No," I said. "I'm sorry, I don't."

 

"Make sure you have some on the way out," he said. "We work both directions,

coming and going."

 

As I walked toward the exit I looked up and saw a sign: "Welcome to the

country where it is a tradition to serve and respect guests."

 

I chuckled. "Things have certainly improved since my last visit," I thought.

 

When Uttama-sloka and I left the terminal we were greeted by about 50

devotees. As I walked along, the devotees gave me flowers and garlands,

which I immediately distributed to the many curious Azerbaijanis watching.

Each time I offered someone a flower I would greet him. "Salaam aleikum," I

would say. "Peace be unto you."

 

"Wa aleikum salaam," they would reply, wishing me the same.

 

I marveled at being so openly received in a devout Muslim country.

 

As we drove to the temple, I spoke to my disciple Sahadeva dasa. "Things

have changed," I said.

 

"Yes and no," he said. "The government wants to join the European Union, so

it is welcoming foreigners and making it easy to come and go. It wants

foreign investment and US dollars for its large oil reserves."

 

Then he lowered his voice, as if out of habit, "But the government is very

corrupt," he said. "The officials keep most of the money and the people

remain poor. I won't say more."

 

I looked out at the city. It appeared much as it did when I first came, in

1992.

 

"What is the population?" I asked.

 

"Eight million," said Sahadeva, "but 20 million Azerbaijanis live next door

in Iran."

 

"How is that?" I asked.

 

"Gasoline costs one US cent a liter in Iran and bread is practically free,"

he said.

 

I was happy to be back. Baku is one of my favorite places for preaching. I

can never get over the fact that I can preach freely there, in the midst of

the Muslim world. All of my 25 disciples in Azerbaijan were born in Muslim

families, but no one opposed them when they joined the Hare Krsna movement.

 

The next morning, Sahadeva told me a bit of recent history. "Some years ago

the government cracked down on the 200 non-Muslim religious movements in the

country," he said. "We thought we were finished. But then it officially

registered 20 of them, including us."

 

"Why did it do that?" I said.

 

"The government was primarily concerned about the opposing political parties

using religion as a front," he said. "Many of the groups were merely facades

for political opposition. Because we're a purely spiritual movement with no

political intentions, the government had no complaints. But it did place

some stiff restrictions on us. After all, it is a Muslim country. It forbade

us to preach outside Baku, and we are not allowed to hold public programs.

People can only visit our temple. But we got permission to distribute Srila

Prabhupada's books anywhere we want in Baku."

 

I smiled. "Lord Caitanya's secret weapon," I said.

 

"People like us and know who we are," he said.

 

I got first-hand experience of that as we drove through the city. When we

stopped at a red light, two men walked by in front of our car. One man

turned to the other. "You see in that car?" he said. "It's a Hare Krsna

guru."

 

The next morning I was thinking of visiting the local hospital to follow up

on the seizure. But just as I was about to bring up the idea, I overheard

two devotees joking about the doctors in Azerbaijan. "When a patient goes to

the hospital," said one, "the doctors have to decide whether to treat the

patient or let him live."

 

I just kept quiet.

 

My heart goes out to the devotees in Azerbaijan. They preach in an isolated

part of the world and are rarely visited by senior devotees, so I decided to

go ahead with the initiations they had planned, although I knew little about

some of the candidates. I have always relied on temple presidents to

recommend disciples, just as Srila Prabhupada did.

 

Before the ceremony I asked to meet the candidates. One man in particular

caught my attention, as I had stayed at his house when I was in Azerbaijan

two years ago. He was originally from Iran, but he took up communism and

fled to Azerbaijan when it was a republic in the former Soviet Union. He

started a business in Baku and soon became wealthy.

 

Later he fell away from communism because he saw it failing. He turned again

to Islam and became a devout Muslim.

 

Then several years ago he met the devotees and was fascinated by the

philosophy of Bhagavad-gita. He was impressed by the temple programs but

hesitated to fully surrender because of his attachment to wealth. He then

went to India, on a pilgrimage to learn more about Krsna consciousness.

Overwhelmed by the beauty and transcendental atmosphere of Vrindavan, he

decided to become a devotee. I was in Vrindavan at the same time, and one

day he approached me and asked to become an aspiring disciple.

 

That night he prayed to Sri Sri Radha-Syamasundara at our temple and asked

Them to take away any impediments to his Krsna consciousness. After he

returned to Azerbaijan, his business failed, and he started a smaller one

that brought in less money but gave him more free time.

 

"How do you use that free time?" I asked. I wanted to see how serious he

was.

 

"I use it to chant between 32 and 64 rounds a day," he said.

 

At the initiation ceremony, I mentioned that his life was simpler than when

I first met him. "Allah always gave me what I wanted," he said, "but Krsna

took everything away and left me only the shelter of His lotus feet."

 

Everyone smiled.

 

"I can easily bear the burden of a few more disciples like this," I thought.

I handed him his beads and gave him the name Nilacala-candra das.

 

"Caitanya Mahaprabhu has forbidden, 'Don't make many siksas, many

disciples.' But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples - for

expanding preaching - even if we suffer. That's a fact. The spiritual master

has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his

disciples. Therefore to make many disciples is a risky job unless one is

able to assimilate all the sins."

 

[Perfect Questions Perfect Answers, Chapter 6]

 

Indradyumna.swami (AT) pamho (DOT) net

www.traveling-preacher.com

Official website for Diary of a Traveling Preacher

 

Great souls, souls from Vaikunta, personal servants, I bend one crore times...

 

Hari hari bol

[Guest guest]

 

There is no directive anywhere from Srila Prabhupada that any of his disciples are authorised to act as initiating Gurus, including Indradyumna Swami; rather, the only directive ever issued by Srila Prabhupada on the future of initiations in ISKCON was the July 9th 1977 Letter to all GBCs and Temple Presidents, which only authorises ritviks, or representatives, who are meant to initiate new disciples on behalf of and for Srila Prabhupada – an instruction repeated no less than three times in this one document!

This very guru system of which Indradyumna Swami hold membership, is completely unauthorized and in direct disobedience to Srila Prabhupada’s instructions.

 

 

The system that you are against - where a disciple becomes a Guru and gives initiation after his own Guru has disappeared - that system has been functioning since the beginning of the universe.

 

The posthumous ritvik system - that is not something Srila Prabhupada ever authorized. He authorized people to be ritviks when he was present, but then he also said:

 

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. (RC Detroit, July 18, 1971)

 

Every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injunctions and follows them practically in life, and teaches them to his disciples... I want to see my disciples become bona fide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy... Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. (SPL Tusta Krsna, December 2, 1975)

[theist]

Some people just cannot stand it when a Vaisnava is shown some appreciation and honored. We can see this devotees life and preaching efforts, which as far as I can tell are totally non-pretentious, and understand that he is walking in the blessing of his Guru, Srila Prabhupada.

 

He is not guru by the approval of the GBC but by his desire to carry on the mission of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya.

[Guest guest]

 

The system that you are against - where a disciple becomes a Guru and gives initiation after his own Guru has disappeared - that system has been functioning since the beginning of the universe.)

 

The previous guru must give persmission to the disciple for becoming the next guru. Has Srila Prabhupada given express permission to any of his disciples to become his successor gurus in ISKCON? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

 

 

The posthumous ritvik system - that is not something Srila Prabhupada ever authorized. He authorized people to be ritviks when he was present, but then he also said:

 

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

In the same lines, the guru system that the GBC is carrying on now is also not authorised by Srila Prabhupada. Did he ever tell, GBCs should rubber stamp someone to be a guru? The quote you are giving here is a generic quote. Srila Prabhupada expected all his disciples to become spiritual masters like Srila Prabhupada says in the preface to 'Nectar of Instruction', all members of the Krishna conciousness movement must become strict gosvamis. That is his expectation. That doesn't mean all memebers of the Krishna consciousness movement now are strict gosvamis.

 

 

These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. (RC Detroit, July 18, 1971)

 

Again a generic quote. Did Srila Prabhupada give express permission to any of his disciple to become a **successor guru** ? If so, please name them and produce the evident document here.

 

 

Every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injunctions and follows them practically in life, and teaches them to his disciples... I want to see my disciples become bona fide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy... Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. (SPL Tusta Krsna, December 2, 1975)

 

You may look into the vedabase to see how Srila Prabhupada maintained documents and carried the functioning of ISKCON through written and signed documents as the movement grew to thousands of followers in every continent. Choosing successors is such an important issue and the whole world knows that Srila Prabhupada didn't appoint a successor after him. That doesn't mean the ritvik system is the correct one. But the ritvik system is safe and better because, it accepts Srila Prabhupada as a pure devotee spiritual master which is indeed true. On the other hand, the GBC guru system has projected many conditioned souls like Harikesh, Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Bhagavan etc., etc., etc., who finally fell along with ISKCON (Srila Prabhupada's) money, devotees ("disciples"), temples, BBT and so on. Who knows how many such rubber-stamped conditioned gurus are yet to unleash the havoc?

[Guest guest]

 

Again a generic quote. Did Srila Prabhupada give express permission to any of his disciple to become a **successor guru** ? If so, please name them and produce the evident document here.

 

 

 

Prabhupada said:

<b>You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master.</b> (London, August 22, 1973)

 

Clear as clear can be.

 

You, all my disciples, <b>everyone</b> should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

But the ritviks say no-one can be a guru and give diksa except Srila Prabhupada. This idea is just nonsense. A speculative theory based on ignorance, preached by kanistha adhikaris.

 

Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's disciples know that he gave them diksa (he wasn't just a ritvik). That new generation will carry on the Parampara of Srila Prabhupada. Others will carry it on as well, in other places.

 

And while that is happening, the ritviks are sitting at their computers planning "arguments" and writing abusive articles that bring these ritviks nothing but bad karma and the sin of Vaishnava aparadha. The Parampara and the sankirtana is carrying on. Thanks to the traveling preachers. No thanks to Krishnakant.

[Kulapavana]

 

The previous guru must give persmission to the disciple for becoming the next guru. Has Srila Prabhupada given express permission to any of his disciples to become his successor gurus in ISKCON? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

 

 

Did Srila Prabhupada receive such an express permission to become next guru from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

 

you envious snakes cant stand a Vaishnava being praised for his good preaching service.

[Guest guest]

 

Prabhupada said:

<b>You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master.</b> (London, August 22, 1973)

 

Clear as clear can be.

 

You, all my disciples, <b>everyone</b> should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

But the ritviks say no-one can be a guru and give diksa except Srila Prabhupada. This idea is just nonsense. A speculative theory based on ignorance, preached by kanistha adhikaris.

 

Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's disciples know that he gave them diksa (he wasn't just a ritvik). That new generation will carry on the Parampara of Srila Prabhupada. Others will carry it on as well, in other places.

 

And while that is happening, the ritviks are sitting at their computers planning "arguments" and writing abusive articles that bring these ritviks nothing but bad karma and the sin of Vaishnava aparadha. The Parampara and the sankirtana is carrying on. Thanks to the traveling preachers. No thanks to Krishnakant.

 

Then why does the GBC stop me from giving initiations? If **everyone** can give initiation then everyone can initiate anyone whom they preach to. But the GBC doesn't allow it.

 

Moreover only a pure devotee can become a guru. So by GBC rubber stamp one becomes a pure devotee ? If becoming a pure devotee can be that easy, then anyone can become one.

[Guest guest]

 

Did Srila Prabhupada receive such an express permission to become next guru from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

 

you envious snakes cant stand a Vaishnava being praised for his good preaching service.

 

Srila Prabhupada is a maha-bhagavata pure devotee and his guru Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is a pure devotee too. So you can never understand the heart of a pure devotee and dealings between maha-bhagavatas. Why are you trying to equate Srila Prabhupada to the present day conditioned souls acting as gurus? You fail to see that I am not criticising any vaishnava's preaching efforts but the system that the GBC follows for recognising someone as a pure devotee guru. Please think with a cool head Kulapavana.

[Guest guest]

Indra's bewilderment

 

While engaged with the brahmanas who were too involved in the performance of Vedic sacrifices, Krsna and Balarama also saw that the cowherd men were preparing a similar sacrifice in order to pacify Indra, the King of heaven

 

A pure devotee of Lord Krsna doesn't have to perform any of the ritualistic functions enjoined in the Vedas; nor is he required to worship any demigods.

 

Krsna ordered a stop to all such activities by His devotees, for He wanted to firmly establish exclusive devotional service during His presence.

 

Krsna, however, persisted: "My dear father, for those who are liberal and saintly, there is no secrecy. They do not think anyone to be a friend or enemy because they are always open to everyone. And even for those who are not so liberal, nothing should be secret for the family members and friends, although secrecy may be maintained for persons who are inimical.

 

sometimes the demigods become puffed up by the influence of material nature; thinking themselves as all in all, they try to forget the supremacy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it is clearly stated that in this instance Krsna wanted to make King Indra angry. Krsna's advent was especially meant for the annihilation of the demons and protection of the devotees.

 

Krsna's advent was especially meant for the annihilation of the demons and protection of the devotees. King Indra was certainly a devotee, not a demon, but because he was puffed up, Krsna wanted to teach him a lesson.

 

Indra thought himself to be the all-powerful supreme personality. When demons become very powerful, they defy the supreme controller, Personality of Godhead. Indra, though not a demon, was puffed up by his material position, and he wanted to challenge the supreme controller. He thought himself, at least for the time being, as powerful as Krsna.

 

Krsna has declared in the Bhagavad-gita that the worshipers of the demigods are not very intelligent. He has also declared that one has to give up all kinds of worship and simply concentrate on Krsna consciousness. Krsna's invoking the anger of Indra and later on chastising him is a clear indication to His devotee that those who are engaged in Krsna consciousness have no need to worship any demigod, even if it is found that the demigod has become angry. Krsna gives His devotees all protection, and they should completely depend on His mercy.

 

Krsna understood that this was a deliberate exhibition of anger by Indra. He therefore concluded, "This demigod who thinks himself supreme has shown his great power, but I shall answer him according to My position, and I shall teach him that he is not autonomous in managing universal affairs. I am the Supreme Lord over all, and I shall thus take away his false prestige which has risen from his power. The demigods are My devotees, and therefore it is not possible for them to forget My supremacy, but somehow or other he has become puffed up with material power and thus is now maddened. I shall act in such a way to relieve him of this false prestige.

 

 

 

Diary of a Traveling Preacher - Volume 7, Chapter 15

 

September 9 - 12, 2006

 

During the festival in Odessa, one of my aspiring disciples asked to see me. Fifteen-year-old Radha Sakhi dasi was born into the Krishna consciousness movement. When she was a child, I gave her a lot of attention and care, as I do for many children, and while we talked, I could tell that such love had borne fruit.

 

She told me that her mother had recently passed away, a few weeks after suddenly coming down with a lung infection. Radha Sakhi was alone in taking care of her and was with her when she died. Though shaken by her mother's impending death she bravely collected herself, and put a Tulasi leaf into her mother's mouth, poured Ganges water on her head, and loudly chanted the Hare Krishna mantra into her ear.

 

"You did the right thing," I told Radha Sakhi. "Just as your mother brought you into the world and helped you become Krishna conscious, so you helped your mother to leave in the most auspicious circumstances. Mother and daughter have proved themselves to be the best of family members by serving each other's deepest interest: to return back to Godhead."

 

The day before I left, I initiated 10 people, bringing the number of my disciples close to 2,000. The next morning as I was packing to leave, I had a small seizure. My body stiffened, my neck and arms were full of intense pain, and I couldn't speak. It lasted only a minute or two but left me exhausted. As I went to lie on my bed I tried to understand why it had

happened.

 

"I am in good health," I thought.

 

Then I remembered that the same thing had happened two years ago, just after another initiation. Although Tamala Krishna Maharaja once told me not to attribute bad health solely to the karma of my disciples, I couldn't ignore Srila Prabhupada's statement in Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, that a spiritual master takes on the burden of the sinful activities of his disciples.

 

"Krishna is so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make them right. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Krishna, he also takes the responsibility for the sinful activities of his devotees. Therefore to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb them. So sometimes - because he is not Krishna - sometimes there is some trouble" [Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, Chapter 6]

 

I had thought about stopping initiations last year but decided to continue. Now, as I lay on the bed, it became obvious that something had to change. I decided that from now on I would accept disciples only if I knew them well and had long-standing relationships with them. I would be more selective.

 

Then I got up to take a shower. While lathering I slipped and fell, hitting my head hard on the floor. I was knocked out for a few moments. Then I woke up and stumbled back to the bed.

 

"That makes my decision even more firm," I thought.

 

That afternoon a young man approached me with a letter of recommendation from his temple president asking me to accept the boy as an aspiring disciple. I politely refused. Word spread quickly.

 

 

 

It's like flying into the unknown," I said to Uttama-sloka.

 

"We don't even know who's picking us up," he said with a half-hearted laugh, "or where we'll be staying or even if they'll have prasadam ready."

 

"I love it," I said. "This is sannyasa: completely dependent upon the Lord."

 

 

 

 

When we stopped at a red light, two men walked by in front of our car. One man turned to the other. "You see in that car?" he said. "It's a Hare Krishna guru."

 

I just kept quiet.

 

My heart goes out to the devotees in Azerbaijan. They preach in an isolated part of the world and are rarely visited by senior devotees, so I decided to go ahead with the initiations they had planned, although I knew little about some of the candidates. I have always relied on temple presidents to recommend disciples, just as Srila Prabhupada did.

 

Before the ceremony I asked to meet the candidates.

"I can easily bear the burden of a few more disciples like this," I thought. I handed him his beads and gave him the name Nilacala-candra das.

 

"Caitanya Mahaprabhu has forbidden, 'Don't make many siksas, many disciples.' But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples - for expanding preaching - even if we suffer. That's a fact. The spiritual master has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his disciples. Therefore to make many disciples is a risky job unless one is able to assimilate all the sins." [Perfect Questions Perfect Answers, Chapter 6]

 

Indradyumna.swami (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

 

 

 

DID HE ENTER THE DISCIPLES NAMES IN SRILA PRABHUPADA"S DISCIPLES BOOK LIKE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO? we understand, "NOT!"....

[Kulapavana]

 

Why are you trying to equate Srila Prabhupada to the present day conditioned souls acting as gurus?

 

at one time many of Prabhupada's godbrothers saw him as a conditioned soul too. the rules apply equally to all. that is having a cool head. you place requirements on the new gurus that you do not place on Prabhupada (such as having an explicit proof of authorization to initiate disciples in each and every case).

 

that requirement is bogus to begin with, but if you adopt it, you must adopt it all the way, including Srila Prabhupada. acharya teaches by his own personal example, remember?

[Guest guest]

Did Srila Prabhupada authorize you to go around and disrupt ISKCON festivals by distributing offensive & blasphemous magazines? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

 

 

The previous guru must give persmission to the disciple for becoming the next guru. Has Srila Prabhupada given express permission to any of his disciples to become his successor gurus in ISKCON? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

 

In the same lines, the guru system that the GBC is carrying on now is also not authorised by Srila Prabhupada. Did he ever tell, GBCs should rubber stamp someone to be a guru? The quote you are giving here is a generic quote. Srila Prabhupada expected all his disciples to become spiritual masters like Srila Prabhupada says in the preface to 'Nectar of Instruction', all members of the Krishna conciousness movement must become strict gosvamis. That is his expectation. That doesn't mean all memebers of the Krishna consciousness movement now are strict gosvamis.

 

 

 

Again a generic quote. Did Srila Prabhupada give express permission to any of his disciple to become a **successor guru** ? If so, please name them and produce the evident document here.

 

 

 

You may look into the vedabase to see how Srila Prabhupada maintained documents and carried the functioning of ISKCON through written and signed documents as the movement grew to thousands of followers in every continent. Choosing successors is such an important issue and the whole world knows that Srila Prabhupada didn't appoint a successor after him. That doesn't mean the ritvik system is the correct one. But the ritvik system is safe and better because, it accepts Srila Prabhupada as a pure devotee spiritual master which is indeed true. On the other hand, the GBC guru system has projected many conditioned souls like Harikesh, Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Bhagavan etc., etc., etc., who finally fell along with ISKCON (Srila Prabhupada's) money, devotees ("disciples"), temples, BBT and so on. Who knows how many such rubber-stamped conditioned gurus are yet to unleash the havoc?

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Prabhupada said:

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

 

From a bona fide spiritual master you receive knowledge, because he will present as he has received from his spiritual master. He'll not adulterate or manufacture something. That is the bona fide spiritual master. And that is very easy. To become spiritual master is not very difficult thing. You'll have to become spiritual master. You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. It is not difficult. It is difficult when you manufacture something. But if you simply present whatever you have heard from your spiritual master, it is very easy. If you want to become overintelligent, to present something, to interpret something, whatever over you have heard from spiritual master you can make some further addition, alteration, then you'll spoil whole thing. Then you'll spoil whole thing. Don't make addition or alteration. Simply present as it is. Therefore, we have begun Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Don't try to become over spiritual master. Then you'll spoil. Remain always a servant of your spiritual master and present the thing as you have heard. You'll be spiritual master. This is secret. You should know it. Don't try to become overintelligent. That will spoil. Evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [bg. 4.2]. This is the... So (child talking) you can stop.(?)

So Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says,

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

yare dekha, tare kaha, 'krsna'-upadesa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

Just see. It is very nice. You'll find in Chaitanya-caritamrta, now it is published. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says, He is the Supreme Lord, Krishna. He says, amara ajnaya. "Whatever I say, amara ajnaya, by My order, you become a spiritual master." Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. So one may be very illiterate, no education, or no scholarship, may not be born in brahmana family, or may not be a sannyasi. There are so many qualification. But one may not have all these qualifications. He may be rascal number one, but still, he can become spiritual master. How? Amara ajnaya. As Krishna says, as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says, if you follow, then you become spiritual master. One may be rascal number one from material estimation, but if he simply strictly follows whatever is said by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or His representative spiritual master, then he becomes a guru.. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

The words 'spiritual master' need not necessarily mean diksa guru.

Why is it that people like you always associate the words 'spiritual master' with diksa guru? It's just like a lusty man, who when he sees a woman, can only think of sex. Or it is like a businessman who looks at everything as an opportunity to make money. Persons like you associate the words spiritual master only with diksa/initiating guru.

 

This quote in question does not link this 'becoming spiritual master' to first waiting for Srila Prabhupada's departure. So how can it be speaking of diksa gurus, which can only come into existence after the spiritual master has first departed? This quote and so many of the other quotes that persons like you present do just that - they speak of acting as 'spiritual master' without needing to wait for Srila Prabhupada to depart first.

 

The full quote also goes onto quote Lord Caitanya's order to the Brahmana Kurma to become guru:

 

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

yare dekha, tare kaha, krsna-upadesa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

 

This was an order given by Lord Caitanya to an uninitiated Brahmana whom Lord Caitanya had just met, to act as a spiritual master while Lord Caitanaya was still on the planet, and who was to act as such a spiritual master by not traveling with the Lord, but by staying in his home and just preaching to his friends and family. Lord Caitanya then gave the same advice to anyone he met whenever he entered a village, visited a temple or met on the roadside. Now everyone acting as a family guru without any formal training or initiation immediately in the presence of the current link, is not an order to be a successor diksa guru in the parampara and become the next current link. To make it doubly clear, in the purports to this verse, Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"It is best not to accept any disciples."

 

So:

a) Preach immediately in the presence of the current link.

b) No initiation or temple training required.

c) No traveling - stick to your family and neighbours only.

d) Don't make any disciples.

e) Anyone and everyone is instantly eligible. You just got to repeat what it says in the sastra. No other qualification required, "not very difficult thing."

 

This is the type of Guru Srila Prabhupada is speaking about, however there is no order to become the 'sit in Srila Prabhupada's seat since Srila Prabhupada is now dead and gone' spiritual master .

 

 

Clear as clear can be.

 

Correct

 

 

But the ritviks say no-one can be a guru and give diksa except Srila Prabhupada. This idea is just nonsense. A speculative theory based on ignorance, preached by kanistha adhikaris.

 

As mentioned previously there has to be authorization from Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

 

Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's disciples know that he gave them diksa (he wasn't just a ritvik). That new generation will carry on the Parampara of Srila Prabhupada. Others will carry it on as well, in other places.

 

So are we going to see Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's disciples continue his branch of the parampara as you claim or are we going to see the GBC stop Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's branch of the parampara?

The GBC’s guru hoax program can be seen as ending certain branches of the ISKCON parampara, since as soon as one of their unauthorised gurus leaves his body, immediately a disciple would need to succeed him, lest the “parampara stop”; and yet the following GBC gurus are all physically absent and no “living guru” has replaced them to become the next GBC authorised “living link” in the parampara:

 

HH Gaura Govinda Swami: “parampara” ended in 1996

HH Tamal Krishna Goswami: “parampara” ended in 2002

HH Sridhara Swami: “parampara” ended in 2004

HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami: “parampara” ended in 2005

HH Bhakti Swarup Damodara: “parampara” ended in 2006?

 

It is ironic that on the one hand the GBC have argued that in the case of Srila Prabhupada the “law” of disciplic succession means that all his disciples immediately are supposed to become guru on his departure, and indeed in this case we had 11 immediate replacements; yet as seen from the cases above, the GBC are unable to find even one person to continue the “living parampara” and “succeed” the so-called 'guru' after many years.

 

 

And while that is happening, the ritviks are sitting at their computers planning "arguments" and writing abusive articles that bring these ritviks nothing but bad karma and the sin of Vaishnava aparadha.

The Parampara and the sankirtana is carrying on. Thanks to the traveling preachers. No thanks to Krishnakant.

 

Heh, babe, you want to look in the mirror someday because it looks to me, like you are doing the same thing.

[Kulapavana]

 

The words 'spiritual master' need not necessarily mean diksa guru.

Why is it that people like you always associate the words 'spiritual master' with diksa guru?

 

710718RC.DET Conversations

Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.

 

720518AR.LA Lectures

So we have got this message from Krsna, from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, from the six Gosvamis, later on, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura. And we are trying our bit also to distribute this knowledge. Now, tenth, eleventh, twelfth... My Guru Maharaja is tenth from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute this knowledge.

 

68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta

Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.

 

 

 

the sarasvata parampara will continue despite the ritvik's wailing. we are not Sikhs. we always have living gurus, not just Guru Nanak. Prabhupada makes it clear in the quotes above. you do not want to accept it out of envy and ignorance. "just because some of the gurus are unqualified, all of them are unqualified" - these are Prabhupada's words too.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Some people just cannot stand it when a Vaisnava is shown some appreciation and honored. We can see this devotees life and preaching efforts, which as far as I can tell are totally non-pretentious,

 

We have to become sastra caksusa- see by the eyes of the scriptures. The scriptures tell us that someone disobeying his gurus order is not such an elevated soul.

 

 

(3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master. [NOD 8]

 

 

and understand that he is walking in the blessing of his Guru, Srila Prabhupada.

 

He is not guru by the approval of the GBC but by his desire to carry on the mission of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya.

 

He he didn't get his guru approval vote from the GBC then how did he get to be an initiating guru in ISKCON?

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Did Srila Prabhupada receive such an express permission to become next guru from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

 

yes, and when he was questioned on this, as you have done he replied as follows .....

 

 

Indian man: When did you become the spiritual leader of Krishna consciousness?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Brahmananda: He's asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krishna consciousness?

Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru-parampara.

 

So he clearly says above that he was ordered by his guru maharaja to be guru.

 

 

Indian: Did it...

Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.

Indian woman 2: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Sadhi mam prapannam. "I am surrendered to You. Whatever You say, I shall carry out." That's all.

Indian man: When did he tell you to...?

Prabhupada: What is the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very insignificant thing that I have to explain to you?

 

So just like you this Indian man is demanding to know more, but Srila Prabhupada tells him .....

 

 

Indian man: No, I am just curious when...

Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit. You should know that one can become guru when he is ordered by his guru, this much.

 

 

 

you envious snakes cant stand a Vaishnava being praised for his good preaching service.

 

Name calling will not convince me that Indradyumna is worthy of praise. If you can prove that he is preaching according to Srila Prabhupada's direction and not concocting his own bogus conclusions - then I will certainly give him praise.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

at one time many of Prabhupada's godbrothers saw him as a conditioned soul too.

 

That's quite correct prabhu. I guess that shows their lack of advancement and thus Srila Prabupada's comment that none of them were qualified to be acarya.

 

the rules apply equally to all. that is having a cool head. you place requirements on the new gurus that you do not place on Prabhupada (such as having an explicit proof of authorization to initiate disciples in each and every case).

 

It is Srila Prabhupada who states this. So either you accept his authority or you reject it, that is your choice. No one can force you to do so.

 

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

 

that requirement is bogus to begin with,

 

So now you know better than Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

but if you adopt it, you must adopt it all the way, including Srila Prabhupada. acharya teaches by his own personal example, remember?

 

As mentioned in a previous post Srila Prabhupada does confirm that he was ordered by his guru.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Did Srila Prabhupada authorize you to go around and disrupt ISKCON festivals by distributing offensive & blasphemous magazines? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

 

My challenge to you - is - provide proof of your claim that these magazines are "offensive & blasphemous".

 

Seems like more 'hot headedness' to me .

[Kulapavana]

 

So just like you this Indian man is demanding to know more, but Srila Prabhupada tells him .....

 

 

YOU are like that Indian man demanding answers from devotees like Indradyumna, not me. and the same answer Prabhupada gave him applies here as well. a requirement to produce some document to prove such guru authorization is BOGUS. that authorization takes place on a mystical level, the level of the heart.

 

a real disciple will be inspired by Krsna to accept a particular person as his guru. dont get between them, as it is not your place. I see many young devotees inspired by Krsna to take initiation from devotees like Indradyumna Maharaja and I am happy for them. they have no doubt he is qualified ENOUGH to be THEIR guru. who the heck are you to tell them otherwise?

[Kulapavana]

 

As mentioned in a previous post Srila Prabhupada does confirm that he was ordered by his guru.

 

and as I mentioned earlier, there is no physical proof of that specific order. anybody can say that they were ordered to be guru. if you demand physical proof, extend that demand to your guru as well. and if you simply accept his word on faith, be prepared to do the same for others - or at least understand that some people have faith in the ordination of their guru by Srila Prabhupada from within.

[Kulapavana]

 

Name calling will not convince me that Indradyumna is worthy of praise. If you can prove that he is preaching according to Srila Prabhupada's direction and not concocting his own bogus conclusions - then I will certainly give him praise.

 

Prabhupada praised his disciples all the time for performing good service - you are certainly nowhere near that generous. To say that some ritviks exhibit extreme envy and act on it is merely stating facts. I have seen it many times.

 

As to bogus conclusions and following Prabhupada's directions - many devotees would say that it is your conclusions that are bogus. Who settles such contradictory claims? Krsna does. In time.

 

Right now I evaluate devotees based on their service to Krsna, not the bombastic claims of exclusive "correctness" they may be making. Bombastic claims are dime a dozen. Inspiring people to take up chanting of the Holy Name and serving Krsna is supremely valuable and REAL and VERIFIABLE proof of pleasing Krsna and their guru. what is your proof of pleasing your guru? all you have is bombastic claims.

 

“Big, big monkey, big, big belly; Ceylon jumping — melancholy!” - Prabhupada