I had thought about stopping initiations last year.. Indradyumna Swami

[Bhakta Harry]

 

710718RC.DET Conversations

Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.

 

With regards to the Detroit room conversation, had Srila Prabhupada said in 1971 that none of his disciples would ever be diksa gurus, the neophyte devotees around him may have been discouraged and left. We can see from the letters that Srila Prabhupada had to write, that some of his disciples were extremely ambitious, trying to initiate after having been in the movement for just a few years; and that Srila Prabhupada was forced to check their ambition by simply encouraging them to at least wait. At that point it is unlikely they had fully grasped just how elevated the diksa guru actually needs to be. Even now those that are left are having a hard time understanding. Even now, many years later, many of Srila Prabhupada's original followers still labour under the misconception that anyone can be a diksa guru as long as he has been following his initiation vows for the preceding five years. We can also see that in the same room conversation Srila Prabhupada is also endorsing the activities of his god-brothers, even though he said that none of them were 'qualified to be acarya' and one year later he says that they were all 'dead men' and envious. So it is clear here that Srila Prabhupada is just giving general encouragement, since he emphasises the following points:

 

• That his grhastha disciples are just as qualified as his sannyasis.

• That ALL of his disciples are 'competent' to become diksa gurus.

• That anyone who is simply 'initiated' is automatically 'competent' to become a diksa guru.

• That even at that time - 1971- they were ALL already qualified to become fully-fledged diksa gurus - 'NOW, they're competent'.

 

Otherwise we have to seriously accept that Srila Prabhupada is stating that:

 

-anyone just by being initiated is qualified and authorised to become a diksa guru. Thus if the GBC & followers want to take this quote literally then all of Srila Prabhupada's 10,000 disciples, men and women, should all be free regardless of their spiritual standing, to initiate without the need for the elaborate voting and 'no objection' arrangements that occur at present. Since as Srila Prabhupada states, they are 'all competent'. He does not say that they still need to be qualified. Though he does say that his disciples are being "trained to become future spiritual masters", his very next words are: "NOW, they're competent".

 

- Please remember that as little as one year later Srila Prabhupada had to suspend the whole GBC for gross unauthorised behaviour. Thus we can hardly accept that Srila Prabhupada had such bad judgement that in 1971 he was stating that ALL of his disciples were there and then qualified to be Diksa Gurus even though one year later his leading men were not even able to behave as disciples.

 

• The encouragement given in Detroit was never repeated to the entire movement, nor written into any GBC resolution or directive or published book. Just one mention in a conversation to a one-off visitor to a temple in 1971, and which was not in any case uncovered until twenty years after Srila Prabhupada's departure.

 

 

720518AR.LA Lectures

So we have got this message from Krsna, from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, from the six Gosvamis, later on, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura. And we are trying our bit also to distribute this knowledge. Now, tenth, eleventh, twelfth... My Guru Maharaja is tenth from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute this knowledge.

 

This quote clearly mentions that Srila Prabhupada's disciples are already the twelfth - 'you ARE the twelfth'. Thus this is not some authorisation for them to become diksa gurus in the future, but merely a statement that they are already carrying on the message of the parampara.

 

 

68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta

Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.

 

 

However a close look at the letter reveals that these exams were not intended to certify ‘initiating gurus’ but simply to improve the philosophical understanding of the devotees, who are supposed to be Brahmins.

In this letter to ‘Hamsaduta’ the word ‘initiate’ is actually mentioned. Srila Prabhupada is actually talking about them initiating in his own PRESENCE - ‘By 1975’ - so he was only talking about them acting as ritviks, since according to Srila Prabhupada, one cannot be an initiating guru in the presence of the Spiritual master.

 

 

the sarasvata parampara will continue despite the ritvik's wailing. we are not Sikhs. we always have living gurus, not just Guru Nanak. Prabhupada makes it clear in the quotes above. you do not want to accept it out of envy and ignorance. "just because some of the gurus are unqualified, all of them are unqualified" - these are Prabhupada's words too.

 

We do not doubt Srila Prabhupada's words. It is your dubious interpretation of those words which is the issue here.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

YOU are like that Indian man demanding answers from devotees like Indradyumna, not me. and the same answer Prabhupada gave him applies here as well. a requirement to produce some document to prove such guru authorization is BOGUS. that authorization takes place on a mystical level, the level of the heart.

 

Sorry to disagree and make you more angry than you already are prabhu, but can you back up your above conclusions with any quotes from Srila Prabhupada? My conclusion that there must be authorization from Srila Prabhupada is fully supported by his teachings. ....

 

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

Furthermore the GBC don't accept this conclusion of yours either since they have a voting system which authorizes the gurus.

 

Also how are we to know who got the real 'mystical level authorization'? Srila Prabhupada solves this dilema by stating ...

 

 

"They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said." (Letter, Omkara, 75-09-02)

 

 

a real disciple will be inspired by Krsna to accept a particular person as his guru.

 

my point is that it could also be maya.

 

 

dont get between them, as it is not your place.

 

Thank-you for the advice.

 

 

I see many young devotees inspired by Krsna to take initiation from devotees like Indradyumna Maharaja and I am happy for them. they have no doubt he is qualified ENOUGH to be THEIR guru. who the heck are you to tell them otherwise?

 

I am sure they do think he is qualified, my point is that he is not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be an initiating guru.

[theist]

 

We have to become sastra caksusa- see by the eyes of the scriptures. The scriptures tell us that someone disobeying his gurus order is not such an elevated soul.

 

True enough. But that also means we should avoid seeing through the eyes of those who are infected with mundane vision and in a fever inspired delusion think they are seeing through the eyes of scripture when they are not. Yes I mean you. You are attempting to set yourself as guru here and now on this forum but your conclusions are rejected. Sorry but you must take your would-be guru games elsewhere.

 

Many here prefer to accept the essence of the scriptures from the Lord in the heart and not from some ecclesiastical body like the GBC or guru wannabes like yourself. I am not picking on you bhakta harry. I have the same disease but I have learned that no one should accept anything from me but rather they should petition the Lord in heart for true enlightenment.

 

The Lord has taught me not to look for his devotee externally. Just like you want to see in writing where Srila Prabhupada authorized any of his disciples yet when challenged by Kulapavanna to show in writing where Bhaktisiddhanta authorized Srila Prabhupada in that way you have nothing to say. Answer his question! And when you realize you can't then try to become a little inwardly focused and let the answer come from the Lord in your heart. There you will see that Srila Prabhupada is still capable of directing his disciples and even to the point of ordering them to accept disciples.

 

In this respect you ritviks are EXACTLY like the GBC. They consider Srila Prabhupada dead and gone and because they don't really believe krsna is in everyone's heart they feel they must step in and tell us who is now Guru. Such arrogance. Ritviks are the same. You consider Srila Prabhupada dead and gone and unable to communicate his desire for a disciple to now become formal guru to others.

 

 

theist-

He is not guru by the approval of the GBC but by his desire to carry on the mission of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya

 

 

He he didn't get his guru approval vote from the GBC then how did he get to be an initiating guru in ISKCON?

 

The same way anyone becomes guru. "but by his desire to carry on the mission of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya". Any of Srila Prabhupada's disciples can do they same totally free of the GBC process. If the GBC agrees that someone can be guru in ISKCON, that only has some value within their organizational structure. It has no transcendental relevance.

 

Now I donot know Indrayumna Swami personally. He was staying in Vrndavan when I was ther and I saw how he relates to people and carries himself. Never was he pompous. Never did I see him demand respect fro others. That coupled with reading his diary entries leads me to conclude that that he is sincere and being empowered to spread the holy name by Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya.

 

Now this doesn't mean that I think he is on the topmost level of realization. He may be I don't know. I lack that vision. But I know him by his fruits and thus conclude he is genuine in his desire to please his spiritual master.

 

He may have been mislead at some point thinking he needed the GBC but there is no impediment (including that one) to the Lord empowering him to inspiring many people towards Vaisnavism. And that should be respected by all.

[theist]

 

Kulapavana -Right now I evaluate devotees based on their service to Krsna, not the bombastic claims of exclusive "correctness" they may be making. Bombastic claims are dime a dozen. Inspiring people to take up chanting of the Holy Name and serving Krsna is supremely valuable and REAL and VERIFIABLE proof of pleasing Krsna and their guru.

 

Yeah!

[Kulapavana]

 

With regards to the Detroit room conversation, had Srila Prabhupada said in 1971 that none of his disciples would ever be diksa gurus, the neophyte devotees around him may have been discouraged and left. (...)

 

We do not doubt Srila Prabhupada's words. It is your dubious interpretation of those words which is the issue here.

 

LOL! just look in the mirror... talking about dubious interpretations of Prabhupada's words.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

and as I mentioned earlier, there is no physical proof of that specific order. anybody can say that they were ordered to be guru.

Srila Prabhupada is not just anybody but is a mahabhagavata devotee of the Lord. Is his word not good enough for you?

 

if you demand physical proof, extend that demand to your guru as well.

In relation to ISKCON and his disciples, Srila Prabhupada was always careful to put important instructions in writing.

 

 

"They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said." (Letter, Omkara, 75-09-02)

 

Srila Bhaktisiddanta never gave a similar instruction, so why should we expect physical proof from Srila Prabhupada, on just your say so?

 

 

and if you simply accept his word on faith, be prepared to do the same for others - or at least understand that some people have faith in the ordination of their guru by Srila Prabhupada from within.

 

Yes, but when this so-called ordination conflicts with signed documentation from Srila Prabhupada it seems sensible to question the depth of reality surrounding this 'ordination'.

 

As mention previously the GBC also doesn't accept this "ordination of their guru by Srila Prabhupada from within" since they have a voting approval system which is how Indradyumna got his diksa guru status.

[Kulapavana]

 

Furthermore the GBC don't accept this conclusion of yours either since they have a voting system which authorizes the gurus.

 

 

GBC has a long history of problematic decisions. I dont always endorse them. I'm not using GBC as an argument. yet, Prabhupada put them in the position of authority, and they do what they can with what little they have. even Prabhupada made all kinds of decisions that went against his own instructions, like giving sannyasa to unqualified disciples only to watch them fall down and make a mockery out of that institution.

 

 

Also how are we to know who got the real 'mystical level authorization'? Srila Prabhupada solves this dilema by stating ...

 

 

like I said earlier: apply the same requirement to Prabhupada and see where it gets you.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

LOL! just look in the mirror... talking about dubious interpretations of Prabhupada's words.

 

Please explain your statement.

[Bhakta Harry]

Can Theist & Kulapavana answer this question?

Srila Prabhupada is not just anybody but is a mahabhagavata devotee of the Lord. Is his word not good enough for you?

[Kulapavana]

 

In relation to ISKCON and his disciples, Srila Prabhupada was always careful to put important instructions in writing.

 

 

so, where is it in writing that Prabhupada required specifically a written authorization for each one of his disciples to initiate disciples?

 

and where is a written authorization of the ritvik system by Prabhupada?

[Bhakta Harry]

 

........what is your proof of pleasing your guru? all you have is bombastic claims.

 

“Big, big monkey, big, big belly; Ceylon jumping — melancholy!” - Prabhupada

 

What claims have I made in this regard?

[Kulapavana]

 

Please explain your statement.

 

Originally Posted by Bhakta Harry

With regards to the Detroit room conversation, had Srila Prabhupada said in 1971 that none of his disciples would ever be diksa gurus, the neophyte devotees around him may have been discouraged and left. (...)

this is YOUR dubious interpretation of Prabhupada's words and intent.

[Kulapavana]

 

What claims have I made in this regard?

 

that your interpretation of Prabhupada's instructions is the only proper and correct way of understanding them

[Guest guest]

Bhakta Harry,

 

You speak philosophy and copy/paste so many of Prabhupada's quotes. But I have to ask ... what have you learnt? For someone whose posing as a 'protector' of Srila Prabhupada's movement, it's amazing how envious you are of the people that are doing just that ... propogating this movement in all parts of world including countries such as Azerbaijan, a muslim country!

 

If you really wished to see this movement thrive, you'd be supporting such great souls who risk everything to push this movement forward. All I see in your posts is extreme enviousness and as such, your posts do not carry much merit. Please excuse me for saying this but you must consider dropping the 'bhakta' from your username. Devotees should never be envious.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is not just anybody but is a mahabhagavata devotee of the Lord. Is his word not good enough for you?

 

In relation to ISKCON and his disciples, Srila Prabhupada was always careful to put important instructions in writing.

Srila Bhaktisiddanta never gave a similar instruction, so why should we expect physical proof from Srila Prabhupada, on just your say so?

Yes, but when this so-called ordination conflicts with signed documentation from Srila Prabhupada it seems sensible to question the depth of reality surrounding this 'ordination'.

 

As mention previously the GBC also doesn't accept this "ordination of their guru by Srila Prabhupada from within" since they have a voting approval system which is how Indradyumna got his diksa guru status.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

so, where is it in writing that Prabhupada required specifically a written authorization for each one of his disciples to initiate disciples??

 

Since he didn't want his disciples to be initiating gurus there is no such authorization.

 

 

I am the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want. [75.04.08]

 

 

 

and where is a written authorization of the ritvik system by Prabhupada?

 

July 9th 1977 document sent out to all temples & GBC's. & subsequent written instructions.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Originally Posted by Bhakta Harry

With regards to the Detroit room conversation, had Srila Prabhupada said in 1971 that none of his disciples would ever be diksa gurus, the neophyte devotees around him may have been discouraged and left. (...)

 

 

this is YOUR dubious interpretation of Prabhupada's words and intent.

 

You haven't explained anything, rather you have just made another statement. So how am i to learn from you?

[Kulapavana]

 

Can Theist & Kulapavana answer this question?

Srila Prabhupada is not just anybody but is a mahabhagavata devotee of the Lord. Is his word not good enough for you?

 

for me that is enough, but the discussion here goes far beyond my personal opinions.

 

how will you prove to anybody that what you require from one person as a proof of appointment to the post of guru is not required from another person? if you pick and chose the standards as you please you are just being whimsical and sentimental.

 

that is why so many people laugh at as, because we do not apply our own standards equally. we say: "judge by the results" yet we concoct all kinds of bogus justifications for our own failures.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

that your interpretation of Prabhupada's instructions is the only proper and correct way of understanding them

 

Where have i made this claim?

 

I think you are getting a bit bewildered here, don't you think?

 

This is the thread ....

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

........what is your proof of pleasing your guru? all you have is bombastic claims.

 

“Big, big monkey, big, big belly; Ceylon jumping — melancholy!” - Prabhupada

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

What claims have I made in this regard?

[Kulapavana]

 

Since he didn't want his disciples to be initiating gurus there is no such authorization.

 

here we go again...

 

how about this again:

 

710718RC.DET Conversations

Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.

 

720518AR.LA Lectures

So we have got this message from Krsna, from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, from the six Gosvamis, later on, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura. And we are trying our bit also to distribute this knowledge. Now, tenth, eleventh, twelfth... My Guru Maharaja is tenth from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute this knowledge.

 

68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta

Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.

---------------------------

 

you keep going in circles. we are wasting time. have a nice day.

[Guest guest]

710718RC.DET Conversations

Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.

 

Something that is being conveniently forgotten is that when Srila Prabhupada was in His last days He ordered Srila Narayana Maharaja to continue helping His disciples and I believe that this meant getting them to the stage of competence with the help of Srila Narayana Maharaja.

 

There was Srila Sridhar Maharaja as well of course but He passed away before that

 

Obviously I already know that the "respected" ritvik person and unfortunately many "but not all" Iskcon devotees will talk lots of offensive prajalpa about this matter.......and not only about this matter,but in general about Srila Narayana Maharaja : - (

 

and in this way not only Iskcon "not all Iskcon" but as far as I know all "ritviks"

are making the same offenses to pure devotees and there should be not much difference between the two groups when it comes to those offensive individuals spiritual futures.

 

YEP! as they would say....hell waits for those who are offensive to the Lords pure devotees and that is something Lord Krishna Him self says.

 

so lets watch our inner and external behaviour to avoid Krishna being displeased.......

[theist]

 

Can Theist & Kulapavana answer this question?

Srila Prabhupada is not just anybody but is a mahabhagavata devotee of the Lord. Is his word not good enough for you?

Neither you or I really knows what it is to be a mahabhagavat devotee. Stop pretending. You are just taking a quote here and there and misappropriating them while ignoring other more quotes that are direct to the issue at hand but are in opposition to your own opinions.

 

But you are free to do that if you wish. For me this whole ritvik debate is dead although it does seem to try to rise from it's own grave from time to time. My complaint with you is your total lack of common manners what to speak of vaisnava ettiqute. Some nice things get said about one nice devotee of Krsna and you come barging in spitting venom and pissing on the whole thing.

 

Please pack up your rubber tipped arrows and plastic swords Oh, great ritvik warrior, and find those that want to hear what you have to say. You could start a ritvik thread right on this forum and those that want to discuss it could join you instead of ruining this thread.

 

I just want to add this is my last post on this thread.

[Guest guest]

 

For me this whole ritvik debate is dead although it does seem to try to rise from it's own grave from time to time. My complaint with you is your total lack of common manners what to speak of vaisnava ettiqute. Some nice things get said about one nice devotee of Krsna and you come barging in spitting venom and pissing on the whole thing.

 

Very true.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

a requirement to produce some document to prove such guru authorization is BOGUS. that authorization takes place on a mystical level, the level of the heart.

In regards to the above, this is not the GBC's, nor ISKCON's, stated position ("mystical authorization"). The GBC's position is, and has always been, that Srila Prabhupada physically instructed devotees to be diksha gurus after his departure. Since this is their claim, it is their responsibility to show the physical evidence for this.

 

If the GBC said that "Prabhupada mystically authorized all the people we have voted in as diksha gurus", then one would not request them for physical evidence of such a mystical experience. But since they themselves do not accept this "mystical authorization", and instead they claim they received physical instructions from Prabhupada on this, it is therefore natural that they may be questioned on this supposed evidence.

 

Also note that I am not raising any objection to this diary, nor to any of the people mentioned in it. I am only speaking in regards to the above quotation.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

710718RC.DET Conversations

Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.

 

Something that is being conveniently forgotten is that when Srila Prabhupada was in His last days He ordered Srila Narayana Maharaja to continue helping His disciples and I believe that this meant getting them to the stage of competence with the help of Srila Narayana Maharaja.

 

There was Srila Sridhar Maharaja as well of course but He passed away before that

 

Obviously I already know that the "respected" ritvik person and unfortunately many "but not all" Iskcon devotees will talk lots of offensive prajalpa about this matter.......and not only about this matter,but in general about Srila Narayana Maharaja : - (

 

and in this way not only Iskcon "not all Iskcon" but as far as I know all "ritviks"

are making the same offenses to pure devotees and there should be not much difference between the two groups when it comes to those offensive individuals spiritual futures.

 

YEP! as they would say....hell waits for those who are offensive to the Lords pure devotees and that is something Lord Krishna Him self says.

 

so lets watch our inner and external behaviour to avoid Krishna being displeased.......

 

 

 

 

Every picture tells a story. I guess the GBC will be thankful that at least he's not gay, but should a sannyasi be enjoying in the company of beautiful young girls?

Is this the standard in the Gaudiya maths also? Does Narayan Maharaj also enjoy like this?

Please note that I am not asking this out of envy but to make a point.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Neither you or I really knows what it is to be a mahabhagavat devotee. Stop pretending. You are just taking a quote here and there and misappropriating them while ignoring other more quotes that are direct to the issue at hand but are in opposition to your own opinions.

 

But you are free to do that if you wish. For me this whole ritvik debate is dead although it does seem to try to rise from it's own grave from time to time. My complaint with you is your total lack of common manners what to speak of vaisnava ettiqute. Some nice things get said about one nice devotee of Krsna and you come barging in spitting venom and pissing on the whole thing.

 

Please pack up your rubber tipped arrows and plastic swords Oh, great ritvik warrior, and find those that want to hear what you have to say. You could start a ritvik thread right on this forum and those that want to discuss it could join you instead of ruining this thread.

 

I just want to add this is my last post on this thread.

 

All your verbosity proves nothing. My point remains: that this so-called "nice devotee" was not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be an initiating guru. It is possible to preach without disobeying the directions of Srila Prabhupada, that is the preaching process followed by genuine nice devotees.<!--EndFragment-->