I had thought about stopping initiations last year.. Indradyumna Swami

[Guest guest]

 

He is not guru by the approval of the GBC but by his desire to carry on the mission of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya.

 

You mean the GBC did NOT approve of IDS becoming a diksa guru? So IDS is acting as a diksa guru neither on the authority of Srila Prabhupada nor on the authority of the GBC??

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

"Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru."

(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

[Kulapavana]

At least Indradyumna Maharaja has something to show people like you, who simply sit on your cans and complain about "unauthorized" gurus - thousands of inspired devotees all over the world, serving Krsna and chanting His Holy Name often under very difficult circumstances.

 

You bitter prunes have nothing real to show - just a lot of hot air.

[gHari]

Brick consciousness. So many are led away from Krsna by the power hierarchies of this camp or that camp. Pitch your tent in the wilderness and forget the free-lunch mentality, the ego-maintenance, delusion-maintenance mentality. Get serious - God is real; that is what this was all about, way back when. Wasn't it?

[theist]

ed

In regards to the above, this is not the GBC's, nor ISKCON's, stated position ("mystical authorization"). The GBC's position is, and has always been, that Srila Prabhupada physically instructed devotees to be diksha gurus after his departure. Since this is their claim, it is their responsibility to show the physical evidence for this.

 

If the GBC said that "Prabhupada mystically authorized all the people we have voted in as diksha gurus", then one would not request them for physical evidence of such a mystical experience. But since they themselves do not accept this "mystical authorization", and instead they claim they received physical instructions from Prabhupada on this, it is therefore natural that they may be questioned on this supposed evidence.

 

Also note that I am not raising any objection to this diary, nor to any of the people mentioned in it. I am only speaking in regards to the above quotation.

Since JNdas has enter the thread it is worthy of continuing.

 

Yes, Iagree with your point. This is why I consider the GBC to be a mundane commitee. They can't answer this question. The same with these bothersome ritviks who have seen fit to appoint their own priests to act on Prabhupada's behalf. Is there a letter with their names on it saying that they are authorized ritvik priests? If not why are they acting in that capacity? They make the same mistake as the GBC in this regard. Flipside of the same coin.

 

IMO both should stop their ceremonial nonsense and wait for the Lord to reveal His devotee. This is the real parampara. Krsna shows the sincere aspirant His devotee and that devotee shows the aspirant Krsna. It really is that simple. But of course if one is really faithless or an atheist dressed as a devotee then he will think that unless he acts in some way by setting up a mundane system to reveal Krsna's devotee the whole thing will fall apart.

 

Both the GBC and the ritviks are disturbing elements in the promotion of Krsna consciousness in this regard.

 

As to the preacher in question(or anyone) I don't need for him to be a "perfect guru" before I can appreciate the good that he is doing. 'Give credit where credit is due' is a motto I find great meaning in.

 

As far as his giving up formal initiations I don't see what the big deal is as long as he continues spreading the Holy Name and other preaching activities. To me that is where the potency is. IMO GV's have really blown this whole Harinama formal initiation thing WAY out of proprotion and it has resulted in sooooo very much confusion.

[Guest guest]

 

Both the GBC and the ritviks are disturbing elements in the promotion of Krsna consciousness in this regard.

 

Agreed. Just curious, if Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja were the one being glorified instead of Sripad Indradumna Maharaja, would we even be having this discussion? I mean, despite the GBC's "rubber stamp approval", most devotees here (non-ritvik) accept him as a pure devotee and qualified to initiate, and that he would have been an initiating Guru with or without the GBC's approval.

 

 

As to the preacher in question(or anyone) I don't need for him to be a "perfect guru" before I can appreciate the good that he is doing. 'Give credit where credit is due' is a motto I find great meaning in.

 

Quite right. The ritviks are so much into fault-finding. They lump everyone in Iskcon together, "guilt by association." They don't want to give credit that Srila Prabhupada created even one pure devotee, except for perhaps Jayananda Prabhu. How are new devotees supposed to have faith in the process of sadhana bhakti if ritviks are trashing everyone who has been practicing Krsna Consciousness for 30 or 40 years?

[Guest guest]

The ritviks should simply be ignored. According to their concocted philosophy, some as exalted as H.H Gour Govinda Swami is also fallen because he initiated disciples, which according to them is a violation of Srila Prabhuapada's instructions.

 

They seem to think that nobody but themselves (ritviks) are devotees of Krsna. Everybody else is misguided.

 

 

Agreed. Just curious, if Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja were the one being glorified instead of Sripad Indradumna Maharaja, would we even be having this discussion? I mean, despite the GBC's "rubber stamp approval", most devotees here (non-ritvik) accept him as a pure devotee and qualified to initiate, and that he would have been an initiating Guru with or without the GBC's approval.

 

Quite right. The ritviks are so much into fault-finding. They lump everyone in Iskcon together, "guilt by association." They don't want to give credit that Srila Prabhupada created even one pure devotee, except for perhaps Jayananda Prabhu. How are new devotees supposed to have faith in the process of sadhana bhakti if ritviks are trashing everyone who has been practicing Krsna Consciousness for 30 or 40 years?

[gHari]

Such, one cannot conceive of surrender, surrender to guru and hence: parampara. The mind, operating from a slight sample of Srila Prabhupada's words, like the archeologist and his pocket of bones, flagrantly blasphemes great devotees like Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja. The mind is on the path to hell, with no light and no hope, eternally chained to ahankara

 

Bhagavad-gita 6.7

[Guest guest]

Bhaktisvarupada Damodara Maharaja, they say, died of heartbreak, after the incident in Imphal. He was crying so much on the way to the cremation ground where his murdered disciples were getting their funeral, that his heart was breaking. Devotees who saw the pictures of him that day were wondering, how he could continue to live after feeling so much misery in this world? Misery Bhaktisvarupada Damodara Maharaja didn't cause. He wasn't feeling pain because of karma, but because of terrorists.

 

Bhaktisvarupada Damodara Maharaja is a perfect loving Guru. Which just goes to show that the parampara of Srila Prabhupada is continuing, minus the ritviks (who are all lost in their mental speculation/maya).

[Kulapavana]

 

How are new devotees supposed to have faith in the process of sadhana bhakti if ritviks are trashing everyone who has been practicing Krsna Consciousness for 30 or 40 years?

 

this is a very valid point. when the newcomers see the abysmal level of rethoric displayed by these people they run like crazy away from the whole thing.

 

ritviks are neither helping themselves nor Lord Caitanya's movement by such non-Vaishnava behavior. they can keep their philosophy if they like but should reject all that trash talk and venom.

 

but your argument has a flipside: some of these ritviks HAVE been practicing Krsna Consciousness for 30 or 40 years and they still act like that...

[Guest guest]

 

Every picture tells a story.

 

And every picture can be taken completely out of context. Do you know the context of the picture? no. So you speculated, right? yes.

[Guruvani]

I am just curious how this accepting of karma by the "spiritual master" actually works.

Indradyumna Swami seems to be saying that he gets pain and suffering from accepting disciples, so I am just wanting to understand how this mystical transferal of karma from the disciple to the guru takes place.

The guru gives the disciple some principles to abide by and gives them a Sanskrit name, then somehow miraculously he absorbs the sins of the disciple even without knowing how all this is taking place?

 

Then, even though the disciple has been chanting the maha mantra for at least 6 months, the spiritual master "initiates" the disciple into the maha mantra?

 

Some regular devotee teaches a new devotee he meets on the street to chant Hare Krishna, but this is NOT initiation?

Even though the devotee is an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada his giving of the maha mantra is NOT initiation until some sannyasi "initiates" him formally in the temple room ceremony?

 

All this just sounds so fake and external.

Why isn't it initiation when some brahmana meets a person on the street and teaches him the maha mantra?

Why is it only initiation when some Swami performs a formal ceremony on the temple room?

 

How does some Swami take on the sins of a "disciple" simply by asking him to make vows and chant the Holy Name?

 

There is just so much ritual and formality that seems to eclipse the actual accomplishments and efforts of the street preachers who are bringing devotees into the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Why does some Swami in silk robes get all the credit when street preachers bring a person to the temple and teaches them the maha mantra?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Why does some Swami in silk robes get all the credit when street preachers bring a person to the temple and teaches them the maha mantra?

 

If we study the history of ISKCON, we will find that 99% of the actual preaching and work has been done by the regular devotees, but all credit is passed up to the gurus. Most of the gurus just fly in and out for a one night lecture, but the real work of making devotees, bringing people to the temple, preaching to them, etc., is done by regular devotees.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

At least Indradyumna Maharaja has something to show people like you, who simply sit on your cans and complain about "unauthorized" gurus - thousands of inspired devotees all over the world, serving Krsna and chanting His Holy Name often under very difficult circumstances.

 

You bitter prunes have nothing real to show - just a lot of hot air.

 

As I've said before babe, you really want to lo:eek: ok in the mirror someday. Cos you are doing the same thing, you accuse others of doing.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

ed

Since JNdas has enter the thread it is worthy of continuing.

 

Yes, Iagree with your point. This is why I consider the GBC to be a mundane commitee. They can't answer this question. The same with these bothersome ritviks who have seen fit to appoint their own priests to act on Prabhupada's behalf. Is there a letter with their names on it saying that they are authorized ritvik priests? If not why are they acting in that capacity? They make the same mistake as the GBC in this regard. Flipside of the same coin.

 

Good point, however not all ritvik groups do this. IRM for example.

 

 

IMO both should stop their ceremonial nonsense and wait for the Lord to reveal His devotee. This is the real parampara.

 

This is your opinion and i respect your right to hold that view. However we are supposed to be following the directions of Srila Prabhupada and since he has not informed us of any devotee to wait for, we are not waiting!

 

 

Krsna shows the sincere aspirant His devotee and that devotee shows the aspirant Krsna. It really is that simple. But of course if one is really faithless or an atheist dressed as a devotee then he will think that unless he acts in some way by setting up a mundane system to reveal Krsna's devotee the whole thing will fall apart.

 

Again this is your speculations.

 

 

Both the GBC and the ritviks are disturbing elements in the promotion of Krsna consciousness in this regard.

 

Yes, some so-called ritvik followers are not much different than the GBC in that they fall victim to their own speculations, just like you do actually!

 

 

As to the preacher in question(or anyone) I don't need for him to be a "perfect guru" before I can appreciate the good that he is doing. 'Give credit where credit is due' is a motto I find great meaning in.

 

Yes, but if someone is doing the wrong thing, no mater how nicely he perform that service, it is still bogus.

 

 

As far as his giving up formal initiations I don't see what the big deal is as long as he continues spreading the Holy Name and other preaching activities. To me that is where the potency is. IMO GV's have really blown this whole Harinama formal initiation thing WAY out of proprotion and it has resulted in sooooo very much confusion.

 

More of your own peculiar brand of what-ever. As mentioned previously ISKCON was founded to follow the opinion of Srila Prabhupada and that is how it should continue.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Agreed. Just curious, if Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja were the one being glorified instead of Sripad Indradumna Maharaja, would we even be having this discussion? I mean, despite the GBC's "rubber stamp approval", most devotees here (non-ritvik) accept him as a pure devotee and qualified to initiate, and that he would have been an initiating Guru with or without the GBC's approval.

 

Without specific authorization from Srila Prabhupada no one should be initiating within ISKCON. As previously posted ....

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

"Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru."

(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

 

 

Quite right. The ritviks are so much into fault-finding. They lump everyone in Iskcon together, "guilt by association." They don't want to give credit that Srila Prabhupada created even one pure devotee, except for perhaps Jayananda Prabhu. How are new devotees supposed to have faith in the process of sadhana bhakti if ritviks are trashing everyone who has been practicing Krsna Consciousness for 30 or 40 years?

 

He may have created millions of pure devotees - but he never gave authorization to any, to be diksa/initiating gurus.

[Guest guest]

All this just sounds so fake and external.

Why isn't it initiation when some brahmana meets a person on the street and teaches him the maha mantra?

Why is it only initiation when some Swami performs a formal ceremony on the temple room?How does some Swami take on the sins of a "disciple" simply by asking him to make vows and chant the Holy Name?

 

 

and one of the most amazing things about this is tha the "swami" actually believes it and would hold that he is 'divinely directed' by The Lord in those efforts. Lord Ramachandra had a similar 'out of body' experience with His guru where they experienced the necessity of The Lord having an impersonal guru, such that he could be covered over enough to 'lord it over' The Supreme Lord. the alignment of the impersonal elements is all a part of a far greater Plan that is currently being acted out in this theater.

 

 

 

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.7.37

 

deva-dvisham nigama-vartmani nishthitanam

 

purbhir mayena vihitabhir adrisya-turbhih

 

lokan ghnatam mati-vimoham atipralobham

 

vesham vidhaya bahu bhashyata aupadharmyam

 

SYNONYMS

 

deva-dvisham -- of those who were envious of the devotees of the Lord; nigama -- the Vedas; vartmani -- on the path of; nishthitanam -- of the well situated; purbhih -- by rockets; mayena -- made by the great scientist Maya; vihitabhih -- made by; adrisya-turbhih -- unseen in the sky; lokan -- the different planets; ghnatam -- of the killers; mati-vimoham -- bewilderment of the mind; atipralobham -- very attractive; vesham -- dress; vidhaya -- having done so; bahu bhashyate -- will talk very much; aupadharmyam -- subreligious principles.

 

TRANSLATION

 

When the atheists, after being well versed in the Vedic scientific knowledge, annihilate inhabitants of different planets, flying unseen in the sky on well-built rockets prepared by the great scientist Maya, the Lord will bewilder their minds by dressing Himself attractively as Buddha and will preach on subreligious principles.

 

 

New Vrndaban is 'non-different' from Vrndaban because The Supreme Lord

has appeared there as A White Incarnation. we defy anyone in this movement to disprove this assertion by scripture. we await responses.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

The ritviks should simply be ignored. According to their concocted philosophy, some as exalted as H.H Gour Govinda Swami is also fallen because he initiated disciples, which according to them is a violation of Srila Prabhuapada's instructions.

 

Can you prove otherwise? Where is the proof that Srila Prabhupada authorized H.H Gour Govinda Swami to be initiating guru? It defies his signed instructions on this matter.

 

 

They seem to think that nobody but themselves (ritviks) are devotees of Krsna. Everybody else is misguided.

 

This may or may not be true. Seems a pathetic line of argumentation to me:pray:

[Bhakta Harry]

 

And every picture can be taken completely out of context. Do you know the context of the picture? no. So you speculated, right? yes.

 

Please enlighten us great sage! Explain why His Holiness is surrounded by beautiful young girls and is obviously enjoying in their company. Everywhere he goes he has the same following, is it not?

 

Please note that i am not saying this out of envy but simply making a point.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

All this just sounds so fake and external.

Why isn't it initiation when some brahmana meets a person on the street and teaches him the maha mantra?

Why is it only initiation when some Swami performs a formal ceremony on the temple room?How does some Swami take on the sins of a "disciple" simply by asking him to make vows and chant the Holy Name?

 

 

and one of the most amazing things about this is tha the "swami" actually believes it and would hold that he is 'divinely directed' by The Lord in those efforts. Lord Ramachandra had a similar 'out of body' experience with His guru where they experienced the necessity of The Lord having an impersonal guru, such that he could be covered over enough to 'lord it over' The Supreme Lord. the alignment of the impersonal elements is all a part of a far greater Plan that is currently being acted out in this theater.

 

 

 

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.7.37

 

deva-dvisham nigama-vartmani nishthitanam

 

purbhir mayena vihitabhir adrisya-turbhih

 

lokan ghnatam mati-vimoham atipralobham

 

vesham vidhaya bahu bhashyata aupadharmyam

 

SYNONYMS

 

deva-dvisham -- of those who were envious of the devotees of the Lord; nigama -- the Vedas; vartmani -- on the path of; nishthitanam -- of the well situated; purbhih -- by rockets; mayena -- made by the great scientist Maya; vihitabhih -- made by; adrisya-turbhih -- unseen in the sky; lokan -- the different planets; ghnatam -- of the killers; mati-vimoham -- bewilderment of the mind; atipralobham -- very attractive; vesham -- dress; vidhaya -- having done so; bahu bhashyate -- will talk very much; aupadharmyam -- subreligious principles.

 

TRANSLATION

 

When the atheists, after being well versed in the Vedic scientific knowledge, annihilate inhabitants of different planets, flying unseen in the sky on well-built rockets prepared by the great scientist Maya, the Lord will bewilder their minds by dressing Himself attractively as Buddha and will preach on subreligious principles.

 

 

New Vrndaban is 'non-different' from Vrndaban because The Supreme Lord

has appeared there as A White Incarnation. we defy anyone in this movement to disprove this assertion by scripture. we await responses.

 

Srila Prabhupada says that diksa/initiation is a process. This begins with the reception of transcendental knowledge.

 

 

"This is the process of initiation. The disciple must admit that he will no longer commit sinful activity [...] He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master. Then, the spiritual master takes care of him and elevates him to spiritual emancipation." (C.c. Madhya, 24.256 )

 

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa."

(C.c. Madhya, 15.108, purport)

 

[Guest guest]

Bhakta Harry,

 

How many times does something have to be repeated to you before you 'attempt' to understand?

 

Anyways, let me try one more time that others have already tried ... where is the proof that Srila BhaktiSidhanta authorized Srila Prabhupada to be initiating Guru?

 

 

Can you prove otherwise? Where is the proof that Srila Prabhupada authorized H.H Gour Govinda Swami to be initiating guru? It defies his signed instructions on this matter.

This may or may not be true. Seems a pathetic line of argumentation to me:pray:

[Guruvani]

 

. where is the proof that Srila BhaktiSidhanta authorized Srila Prabhupada to be initiating Guru?

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Sometime in the year 1935 when His Divine Grace was staying at Radha-kunda, I went to see him from Bombay. At that time, he gave me many important instructions in regard to constructing temples and publishing books. He personally told me that publishing books is more important than constructing temples.

My guess is that it was on this occasion that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur made it known to Srila Prabhupada that his mission would be to present the bhakti cult to the English speaking world and accept the responsibilities of a spiritual master in doing so.

[theist]

I don't read posts from bhakta harry. he is set on his opinion and doesnot even care to listen to others. Plus he spits venom on a regular basis, which makes interacting with him worse then speaking to a dead stone. A dead stone at least doesn't spit poison.

[Guruvani]

 

If we study the history of ISKCON, we will find that 99% of the actual preaching and work has been done by the regular devotees, but all credit is passed up to the gurus. Most of the gurus just fly in and out for a one night lecture, but the real work of making devotees, bringing people to the temple, preaching to them, etc., is done by regular devotees.

 

There is just so much that is so external and ritualistic about the way initiations are given in ISKCON.

Temple devotees go out and preach or welcome visitors to the temple and preach to them, teach them the maha-mantra, give them prasad, give them books etc. etc. and then if that person becomes a serious devotee the temple president recommends them to some ISKCON guru for initiation, the guru makes a whirlwind visit to the temple, initiates devotees, flys out and pops back in every few weeks or months to set on the big cushion and pontificate.

If that isn't a ritvik system then I don't know what is.

 

Do these ISKCON gurus actually personally groom and train all these disciples? Or, do the senior devotees in the temple do that?

Maybe some of them have a few close personal disciples that they train, but many of them have hundreds of disciples they probably don't even remember the name of.

 

The traditional guru system was that the guru personally trained all his disciples.

In ISKCON the gurus are just figures acting in a formal capacity in a "covered ritvik system".

The claim that ISKCON follows "traditional" parampara is a facade - a false front that simply covers a ritvik system.

If they could ever just admit that it is a ritvik system, it would clear the air a lot and create a much better atmosphere of equality and brotherhood in ISKCON.

 

ISKCON needs to cut the slag of all this false pretense and face the facts of who the actual guru and acharya of ISKCON is.

 

Maybe some of them are actually gurus to their disciples, but for the most part they are just keeping up a false front to the ritvik culture that ISKCON is actually based on.

 

Initiation is the learning of the principles for being a member of ISKCON and making of vows to follow the principles that Srila Prabhupada established for the movement.

 

Whether one goes through this process via ritvik or personal guru, it is all the same.

But the falling down of gurus is very bad for the image of ISKCON and thus the ritvik system would better preserve the integrity of ISKCON.

[theist]

From the ritvik camp we hear the insistence of the reality that since Srila Prabhupada is fully accessable through his instructions. I appreciate this as truth. That said it does raise the question of why anyone needs to approach a self-appointed ritvik priest to be granted a connection to Srila Prabhupada. I believe that connection is established by hearing his instructions which he kindly left with us and following them. It seems safer to me to just ask the Lord in heart to establish a connection for us with His devotee. Surely he will according to our sincerity.

[theist]

 

Whether one goes through this process via ritvik or personal guru, it is all the same.

But the falling down of gurus is very bad for the image of ISKCON and thus the ritvik system would better preserve the integrity of ISKCON.

How about this as a solution? Within Iskcon the GBC has full say over initiations as to who is qualified for second intiations as a necessary step before one can serve as a pujari and get out of the personal guru as savior business altogether. That is not their arena of influence and indeed that is the sole responsibility of Krsna as Supersoul.

 

Also if someone accepts one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples as their primary focus as guru then they should establish their own scene independent of Iskcon and GBC control. They can always coordinate preaching efforts but guru must be independent of ecclesiastical influence.

 

The Iskcon body and temples established by Srila Prabhupada should maintain him as the main focus without being designated as ritvik just like before he left the earth planet.

 

I would be interested in your critique.

 

Hare Krsna