I had thought about stopping initiations last year.. Indradyumna Swami

[suchandra]

 

My problem is even if both the traditionalists and the ritviks or either one of them is bonafide I would still have a natural inclination to avoid both groups just because I am spiritually lazy and to be honest on a Sunday afternoon I would much rather kick back in a reclinable chair and watch the NFL rather than go out into the world and try to convince everyone that life is suffering and the only way out is to call on the name of God. On balance however I do feel sympathetic to the Krishna Conscious Movement and anyone with any sort of common sense can recognize the great accomplishments of Prabhupada.

 

 

They surely get bodies in their next live which dont get injured so easily as this human bodies. Secondly they will get bodies which dont have to do other things that distract from this game. They will get brains which cant think of anything else. And by watching these folks you will get the opportunity to have more close association...and so it goes..science of reincarnation

[theist]

 

My problem is even if both the traditionalists and the ritviks or either one of them is bonafide I would still have a natural inclination to avoid both groups just because I am spiritually lazy and to be honest on a Sunday afternoon I would much rather kick back in a reclinable chair and watch the NFL rather than go out into the world and try to convince everyone that life is suffering and the only way out is to call on the name of God. On balance however I do feel sympathetic to the Krishna Conscious Movement and anyone with any sort of common sense can recognize the great accomplishments of Prabhupada.

Me too. I am watching the Bears v. Dolphins. How about those fish today! But I am also pumping some weights. Get out of that recliner slacker and onto your excercycle. =:-)

[AncientMariner]

 

Me too. I am watching the Bears v. Dolphins. How about those fish today! But I am also pumping some weights. Get out of that recliner slacker and onto your excercycle. =:-)

 

 

 

Haha I am going to do a little workout tonight. Enjoyed watching Bears get spanked because they beat up on my Seahawks this year. Best of luck.

[Guruvani]

You football geeks are wimps.

Real men watch the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship)

 

I hate Football.

Give me a couple of dudes bashing in each other's face and I can dig that!

 

I am a UFC fanatic.

the NFL is for chumps!

[Guest guest]

Sorry mates, it's Rugby I'm afraid...All Blacks Team. Either that or play bona fried football "as it is" the way it was originally played in 1905 in the parampara from Teddy Roosevelt...when people got killed in each game because no padding or safety equipment back then...gladiator style.

 

Hmmm, speaking of Ultimate Fighting...I've got an idea! What say we settle our siddhantic differences with sports! First I suggest we have all of the sannyasis square off in each camp in a nice game of arm wrestling...nah nah nah,,,make that SUMO WRESTLING!!!

 

Well, makes sense...babaji vesha...sumo vesha...Depends Adult Diapers...all basically the same thing eh? "A rose by any other name" etc. To start off: in the NM Camp, I say we have Tirtha Maharaja square off against Vana Maharaja...then Sajjan Maharaja against Madhava Maharaja, and so on.

 

I say we make it Extreme Sports, perhaps a Reality TV show. Survivor: Fakirabad [the Islamic name for Vrndavana]. Then we make the Maharajas

do all sorts of Extreme Sports like Snowboarding down Mount Everest without any oxygen tanks [first done on May 22, 2001].

 

So basically make them start from arm-wrestling, then move up to hop-scotch, then jump rope, then ping pong, jello wrestling, and finally the Wet Zorb: rolling down a 600 foot hill inside of a clear plastic ball. First do it strapped inside, then do it without the safety belt and with a bucket of water thrown inside of the ball.

[Guest guest]

 

I have no war with either camp, wish them both the best and I have seen compelling arguments for both sides using quotes that seem legit so I just don't know what to think one way or another on the whole ritvik vs. traditional gurus debate.

 

Actually, in BTP12 Ravindra Svarupa is directly quoted as saying that Ritvik - i.e. the concept of a single Acharya - IS traditional! Which completely turns on its head the GBC argument that "Ritvik is not traditional".

[Guest guest]

No, I don't. Do you?

 

*** From earlier in this thread-

 

Prabhupada said:

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

Clear as clear can be.

 

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

 

Srila Prabhupada's word is the proof. Do you have a problem with that?

[theist]

 

You football geeks are wimps.

Real men watch the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship)

 

I hate Football.

Give me a couple of dudes bashing in each other's face and I can dig that!

 

I am a UFC fanatic.

the NFL is for chumps!

 

I like the UFC also. Let's remember that as spectators we aren't participants though. The most absurd thing about professional sports is the fan base, especially evident by checking out the Raider fans. Some of those people are full on nuts. I find a boxing, football, UFC bout, really good to watch during a workout however. It has been shown that during such events even the spectators experience a rise in testosterone levels. Test ,in balance, is definetly my favorite molecule.

[Guruvani]

 

No, I don't. Do you?

 

*** From earlier in this thread-

 

Prabhupada said:

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

Clear as clear can be.

 

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

Then why don't you post more of that quote of Srila Prabhupada wherein he also said at that time "You can be rascal #1 and still you can be spiritual master! You may say that I am not qualified to be spiritual master, but there is no need of qualification. You simply repeat word for word what you heard from your spiritual master and you will be guru".

 

I am paraphrasing the quote as best I can from memory but I heard that tape many times.

 

However, I don't think Srila Prabhupada was actually saying that rascals could become diksha gurus in ISKCON. He was refering to siksha type gurus, not diksha gurus who give the formal initiation into the Vaishnava cult.

 

If we take that statement of Srila Prabhupada literally as refering to diksha gurus then there is no reason why Bhavananda, Harikesha or any rascal devotee cannot still be an ISKCON guru.

 

Abusing that quote to promote rascals as fit to be diksha gurus is not what Srila Prabhupada intended.

 

Don't be a cheater and abuse that quote with a fragment of the statement.

[Guest guest]

You use flawed logic. There may have been cheater gurus but to claim that the entire parampara system must be discarded because of a few who fell down, is naive, to say the least.

 

 

 

However, I don't think Srila Prabhupada was actually saying that rascals could become diksha gurus in ISKCON. He was refering to siksha type gurus, not diksha gurus who give the formal initiation into the Vaishnava cult.

 

Srila Prabhupada stated it in plain straightforward English. I don't see any reason to think otherwise and assume what he may have meant.

[Guruvani]

 

You use flawed logic. There may have been cheater gurus but to claim that the entire parampara system must be discarded because of a few who fell down, is naive, to say the least.

 

And that is your very flawed logic that some external official guru is what carries on the parampara.

Nobody says to discard the parampara.

But, what we really need to do then is realize that when so-and-so das meets an inquisitive person on the street and gives him the maha-mantra and the regulative principles, that he just initiated the person.

That some swami setting on the big cushion and pontificating then becomes the diksha guru is a fraud.

Srila Prabhupada authorized all his disciples to distribute the Holy Names.

Why does some sannyasi jet-setting around the world then become the "guru" of a devotee that so-and-so das already initiated into the chanting of the Maha-mantra?

If we are going to actually adopt the true principles of parampara, then it's about time to recognize that lots of ISKCON sannyasis and Narayana Maharaja and many other "gurus" have stolen disciples from devotees who are the ones who actually brought a new devotee into the Vaishnava cult?

 

It's not like that anywhere.

It's all just a lot of formal, ritual, ceremonial procedure.

The ritvik system is as good a formal procedure and any of these other so-called "initiations".

How can you "initiate" someone who has already been given the mantra by a devotee in the disciplic succession?

It's all just ritual and formality.

The real parampara doesn't get the credit it deserves.

Your parampara is formal ritual cult.

The real parampara is the passing of the mantra and the knowledge from one person to another.

Let's just give the real credit where credit is due and accept that many of Narayana Maharaja's disciple were inititated by other devotees long before the people ever heard of Narayana Maharaja.

The same goes for the ISKCON gurus.

 

Srila Prabhupada said you can be the #1 rascal and still be guru.

Why doesn't the GBC just adopt that standard and get their noses out of the guru business altogether.

If they want to keep up this fake formal ritual, then the ritvik ritual is probably the best form of ritual for the ISKCON institution.

[Guest guest]

I've done that to many people ... discuss the maha-mantra and explain to them why we need to follow the regulative principles. And I think of women all day long. But yet I should consider myself the initiator of those people, making me some kind of a guru?

 

No offense intended seriously, but do you realize what garbage you just posted?

 

 

And that is your very flawed logic that some external official guru is what carries on the parampara.

 

Nobody says to discard the parampara.

 

But, what we really need to do then is realize that when so-and-so das meets an inquisitive person on the street and gives him the maha-mantra and the regulative principles, that he just initiated the person.

 

[Guest guest]

Oh boy, I just don't know what to make of this post. Because, last time I checked, many people were introduced to ISKCON, the maha-mantra and the regulative principle by Srila Prabhupada's disciples. A lot of them subsequently got initialted by Srila Prabhupada. So using your strange logic, Srila Prabhupada is a cheat because he took the disciples of his disciples?! This is laughable.

 

 

And that is your very flawed logic that some external official guru is what carries on the parampara.

Nobody says to discard the parampara.

But, what we really need to do then is realize that when so-and-so das meets an inquisitive person on the street and gives him the maha-mantra and the regulative principles, that he just initiated the person.

That some swami setting on the big cushion and pontificating then becomes the diksha guru is a fraud.

Srila Prabhupada authorized all his disciples to distribute the Holy Names.

Why does some sannyasi jet-setting around the world then become the "guru" of a devotee that so-and-so das already initiated into the chanting of the Maha-mantra?

If we are going to actually adopt the true principles of parampara, then it's about time to recognize that lots of ISKCON sannyasis and Narayana Maharaja and many other "gurus" have stolen disciples from devotees who are the ones who actually brought a new devotee into the Vaishnava cult?

 

It's not like that anywhere.

It's all just a lot of formal, ritual, ceremonial procedure.

The ritvik system is as good a formal procedure and any of these other so-called "initiations".

How can you "initiate" someone who has already been given the mantra by a devotee in the disciplic succession?

It's all just ritual and formality.

The real parampara doesn't get the credit it deserves.

Your parampara is formal ritual cult.

The real parampara is the passing of the mantra and the knowledge from one person to another.

Let's just give the real credit where credit is due and accept that many of Narayana Maharaja's disciple were inititated by other devotees long before the people ever heard of Narayana Maharaja.

The same goes for the ISKCON gurus.

 

Srila Prabhupada said you can be the #1 rascal and still be guru.

Why doesn't the GBC just adopt that standard and get their noses out of the guru business altogether.

If they want to keep up this fake formal ritual, then the ritvik ritual is probably the best form of ritual for the ISKCON institution.

[Guruvani]

 

Oh boy, I just don't know what to make of this post. Because, last time I checked, many people were introduced to ISKCON, the maha-mantra and the regulative principle by Srila Prabhupada's disciples. A lot of them subsequently got initialted by Srila Prabhupada. So using your strange logic, Srila Prabhupada is a cheat because he took the disciples of his disciples?! This is laughable.

The same applies here.

Many initiations Srila Prabhupada performed were also formal ritual.

It's all a part of building an acharya sampradaya.

The fact is: Krishna is the only guru.

All other gurus are formal figures.

 

If you ever paid any attention to the words of Srila Prabhupada you would read that he was always promoting the idea of "joining ISKCON" or "becoming a member of the society".

Srila Prabhupada initiated devotees formally into his movement.

 

Because the Saraswata sampradaya is based more upon the siksha gurus than the diksha guru, it is only natural that all these devotees where recognized as disciples of Srila Prabhupada because he established all the principles and regulations required for an ISKCON initiation and based the society on his books.

 

for example: Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami hardly mentioned his diksha guru, but throughout his works he always acknowledged his siksha gurus the most.

[Guest guest]

I'm confused here. So are you saying that Srila Prabhupada is also not a formal diksa guru but simply initiated pople into the 'movement? I can't entirely agree or disagree because I don't know what the scriptures state about this. Can you provide some scriptural references to corroborate your point that Krsna is the only guru?

 

 

The same applies here.

Many initiations Srila Prabhupada performed were also formal ritual.

It's all a part of building an acharya sampradaya.

The fact is: Krishna is the only guru.

All other gurus are formal figures.

 

If you ever paid any attention to the words of Srila Prabhupada you would read that he was always promoting the idea of "joining ISKCON" or "becoming a member of the society".

Srila Prabhupada initiated devotees formally into his movement.

 

Because the Saraswata sampradaya is based more upon the siksha gurus than the diksha guru, it is only natural that all these devotees where recoginized as disciples of Srila Prabhupada because he established all the principles and regulations required for an ISKCON initiation and based the society on his books.

 

for example: Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami hardly mentioned his diksha guru, but throughout his works he always acknowledged his siksha gurus the most.

[Guruvani]

 

I'm confused here. So are you saying that Srila Prabhupada is also not a formal diksa guru but simply initiated pople into the 'movement? I can't entirely agree or disagree because I don't know what the scriptures state about this. Can you provide some scriptural references to corroborate your point that Krsna is the only guru?

 

 

<center>

acaryam mam vijaniyan

navamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyasuyeta

sarva-deva-mayo guruh

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> acaryam--the spiritual master; mam--Myself; vijaniyat--one should know; na avamanyeta--one should never disrespect; karhicit--at any time; na--never; martya-buddhya--with the idea of his being an ordinary man; asuyeta--one should be envious; sarva-deva--of all demigods; mayah--representative; guruh--the spiritual master.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> "One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods."

<center>PURPORT

 

</center> This is a verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27) spoken by Lord Krsna when He was questioned by Uddhava regarding the four social and spiritual orders of society.

[Kulapavana]

once you understand that it is Krsna who is Sri Guru the preoccupation with seeking the "absolute perfection" in an individual guru should ease a bit...

 

can Krsna manifest His teaching potency (Sri Guru) in a "not-so-perfect" but certainly sincere guru? why not? if such an empowered guru can give siksha, why not diksha as well? especially since in our tradition siksha is more important than diksha.

[Guruvani]

 

once you understand that it is Krsna who is Sri Guru the preoccupation with seeking the "absolute perfection" in an individual guru should ease a bit...

 

can Krsna manifest His teaching potency (Sri Guru) in a "not-so-perfect" but certainly sincere guru? why not? if such an empowered guru can give siksha, why not diksha as well? especially since in our tradition siksha is more important than diksha.

Ordinary devotees give diksha all the time, as they teach others the Maha Mantra and the rules for chanting.

Sure, not so perfect devotees can and DO give diksha everyday all over the world.

But, the formal diksha thing is part of the tradition to uphold the standard with a little more dignity.

[Guest guest]

People need to connect with a living sadhu who can direct them towards the highest goal of life - Krishna Prema.

 

In his Bhagavat Lecture, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur said that Vyasa was unhappy with the things he heard from various sages living in the world around him, and that Vyasa was guided towards enlightenment by great souls who "now live spiritually". He was guided, in other words, by souls who have "disappeared" from this material world.

 

But for most people it is impossible to connect with "departed" saintly souls. Indeed in the case of the Christians we find there are numerous sects that each claim to be in touch with the "REAL JESUS" and who quarrel with each other in points of philosophy; and we also see this with the various camps of people who believe in the "post samadhi ritvik" ideology. They quarrel with each other, and quarrel with people who believe in the GBC. And year after year it goes on and on and on and on.

 

Initiation into a religion, either in the ritvik school or the GBC backed school of thought, neither of these is good enough if you just go off and follow a kanistha teacher. If you join "the Movement" but you follow a kanistha, you are in that kanistha temple president's movement. You are in a sub-branch of the real Movement.

 

Devotees should seek higher guidance from a higher living Vaishnava. The pure Vaishnavas are living in the world now - it is true. Find a Vaishnava who can teach you about Krishna if you want to be Krishna's surrendered devotee. Don't find a "group". Group-affiliation or herd-mentality is a useless thing.

[Guruvani]

 

People need to connect with a living sadhu who can direct them towards the highest goal of life - Krishna Prema.

 

In his Bhagavat Lecture, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur said that Vyasa was unhappy with the things he heard from various sages living in the world around him, and that Vyasa was guided towards enlightenment by great souls who "now live spiritually". He was guided, in other words, by souls who have "disappeared" from this material world.

 

But for most people it is impossible to connect with "departed" saintly souls. Indeed in the case of the Christians we find there are numerous sects that each claim to be in touch with the "REAL JESUS" and who quarrel with each other in points of philosophy; and we also see this with the various camps of people who believe in the "post samadhi ritvik" ideology. They quarrel with each other, and quarrel with people who believe in the GBC. And year after year it goes on and on and on and on.

 

Initiation into a religion, either in the ritvik school or the GBC backed school of thought, neither of these is good enough if you just go off and follow a kanistha teacher. If you join "the Movement" but you follow a kanistha, you are in that kanistha temple president's movement. You are in a sub-branch of the real Movement.

 

Devotees should seek higher guidance from a higher living Vaishnava. The pure Vaishnavas are living in the world now - it is true. Find a Vaishnava who can teach you about Krishna if you want to be Krishna's surrendered devotee. Don't find a "group". Group-affiliation or herd-mentality is a useless thing.

 

 

 

 

He reasons ill who tells that Vaishnavas die!

Bhaktivinode

[theist]

 

once you understand that it is Krsna who is Sri Guru the preoccupation with seeking the "absolute perfection" in an individual guru should ease a bit...

 

can Krsna manifest His teaching potency (Sri Guru) in a "not-so-perfect" but certainly sincere guru? why not? if such an empowered guru can give siksha, why not diksha as well? especially since in our tradition siksha is more important than diksha.

 

This is why I believe right from the beginning people should betaught and encourage to seek shelter of the Lord in the heart and pray to Him to kindly direct us to His representative who He is empowering.

 

Enough of this GBC/Ritvik garbage concerning who is guru.They are both unnecessary disturbances in the bhakti community.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Enough of this GBC/Ritvik garbage concerning who is guru.They are both unnecessary disturbances in the bhakti community.

 

I think that kind of talk is a direct insult to Srila Prabhupada, as it was him who created the GBC and also the ritvik system.

There wouldn't be any "bhakti community" around the world if it wasn't for Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

 

once you understand that it is Krsna who is Sri Guru the preoccupation with seeking the "absolute perfection" in an individual guru should ease a bit...

 

can Krsna manifest His teaching potency (Sri Guru) in a "not-so-perfect" but certainly sincere guru? why not? if such an empowered guru can give siksha, why not diksha as well? especially since in our tradition siksha is more important than diksha.

 

But does this not open the temples gates wide open for all kind of cheaters/swindlers in the name of Gaudiya-Vaishnavism? If it becomes the normal cliche of western Vaishnavism that all those acaryas who sit as totalitarians on the vyasasana fall down like corrupt politicians/windfall what's your answer? You must really consider people as human cattle to buy from you that kind of maya. And remember, a guru sitting on the vyasanana is not something like a Catholic priest, a Vaishnava guru sitting on the vyasasana is according sastra in an absolute position, he occupies a totalitarian office, everything he orders has to be performed. Disciples have to surrender all their assets and become just like his livelong bondservants.

At the same time you guys proclaim, well when he falls down it's fine with me. Guess you people want to ban Gaudiya Vaishnavism back and lock it up from where it originated - in West Bengal? Who's gonna buy such a rascal religion with fallen gurus, Harvard professors? What is your answer? Please stop being ridiculous, absurd, laughable, derisory.

Are you people so much fed up with KC?

[Guest guest]

 

68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta

Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.

 

 

 

What have you to say about that, bhakta?

[Guruvani]

 

Are you people so much fed up with KC?

 

No.

We are just fed up with dogma, ritual and make-believe gurus.

 

We need to give the credit where credit is due to the preachers who are actually bringing people into Krishna consciousness just so some ritual guru from ISKCON or the Gaudiya Math can claim mastership and pretend he is taking the Karma of some disciple when he doesn't actually know diddly squat about how to take the Karma of a disciple and assure him that he can deliver him back to Godhead.

 

Any initiated devotee can be diksha guru and many initiated devotees are actually doing the work of gurus all over the world while some Swami in silk robes sets on the big seat and hogs all the glory of spreading Krishna consciousness.

 

to Hell with all this fakery.

Let the real preachers get the recognition they deserve instead of giving it all to these rubber stamp gurus who disrespect other devotees and pretend to be on a higher platform because the wear saffron cloth and carry some bamboo sticks around.