Soybean vs soybean oil

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Dear Madana-mohana prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thank you so much for your learned response. I also had not thought about

the South Indian cuisines which do sometimes use sesame and coconut oils.

You are quite correct and thank you for correcting me. I was focusing on the

instructions of Srila Prabhupada and our Gaudiya ancestry. However I think

that your use of the term 'bonafide' is not an appropriate terminology for

our discussion so I will limit my comments accordingly.

 

I do note however that in the quotes from Srila Prabhupada (et al) that you

provided supporting the use of oils as a cooking medium, Srila Prabhupada

does not ADVOCATE the use of these oils as mediums for offering to the deity

nor for regular consumption by devotees. Honestly, I found the quotes you

provided with regard to the use of oils, as being supportive of MY arguments

and not yours. These quotes implied concessions that Srila Prabhupada

approved of or personal taste (as a Bengali) as opposed to recommendations

or directions of what devotees or Krsna should eat. From these quotes it

seemed rather obvious that he considers such oils as secondary; to be used

if ghee is NOT available, which was my contention. From these quotes it

would seem that ghee is obviously the default cooking medium preferred.

Would you not agree?

 

>>But if you re-read my last posting, I referred to "vegetable oils" -- and

>>not just to soybean oil -- that can sometimes be used in authoritative

>>recipes suitable for offering to Krsna:">>

 

It is a fact that other sampradayas consider oils such as coconut (referred

to in Sth India as a kalpa-vrksa) or Tila (sesamum) as their preferred

cooking mediums. However we, as Gaudiyas and specifically Srila Prabhupada's

followers, like to accept these persons as our authorities. From even a

cursory reading of SB and CC it is apparent that 'first class foods' such as

those offered to Mahaprabhu, are those that are cooked in ghee, and not oil.

How often does Srila Prabhupada tell that story of Carvaka muni who

advocates even theft so that one may purchase ghee and enjoy life? Srila

Prabhupada also says that in svarga, the devas subsist only on foods cooked

in ghee "everything they eat is prepared in clarified butter". [sB.9.14.23]

It is therefore to be understood that 'first class foods' refers to foods

cooked in ghee; and not oils of whatever persuasion.

 

Whether a recipe uses oil or ghee though, is a different issue to whether it

is offerable to the deity or not AND whether it is healthy. For example some

medicines also contain things unofferable to Sri Krsna, yet under certain

extraordinary circumstances can be consumed.

 

The thrust of my post was,

 

1. that vegetable oils of any kind are not Srila Prabhupada's nor sastra's

preferences nor directions to us to cook for either the Deity or devotees,

2. that oils are NOT better for health than ghee, as you stated.

 

 

My post was NOT concerned about whether other (Vaisnava) traditions or other

disciplines do use oils for cooking.

 

>>"I hope you will exonerate me from discussing health benefits of different

oils vs. ghee. Let everybody see this for oneself over the years.">>

 

 

Prabhu, was it also not you who stated,

 

"... vegetable oils tend to be much healthier for regular diet that ghee in

the long run..." ?

 

It hardly seems fair to state that and then ask to be exonerated from the

discussion. And if "everybody (is to) see this for oneself over the years"

that would tend to refute your previous statement that "vegetable oils tend

to be much healthier". If we are all to wait and see, how can you make the

assertion in the first place? Your statement regarding the consumption of

vegetable oils being healthier than ghee professes an air of authority to it

and not just an opinion and this is the reason I took exception to it,

wanting not to appear challenging to your good self, but desiring that

devotees who may be reading these exchanges be well informed. But to now say

you wish to be excluded from the debate of whether "vegetable oils tend to

be much healthier that ghee in the long run...", I feel is not fair to any

of us.

 

Since it was you who raised the 'health' issue I would like to comment on

that. According to Sri Agnivesa in his Caraka Samhita, Ghee is one of the

nine "Indicated" foods (along with rice, mung, etc.,) to be consumed

regularly (daily) by humans. Oil is not mentioned. Ghee is also considered

by Sri Agnivesa to be the unctuous (as in oleation) substance

"par-excellence" because of its properties. Ghee alone has the power to

assimilate the properties of ALL other substances it is mixed with.

According to Dr. Vasant Lad and Dr. David Frawley - karmi experts in

Sanskrit, Ayurvedic and Vedic scriptures - ghee is the only medium which can

be mixed with any Rasayana (tonic or rejuventive) herb, whereas this is not

true with oils. Neither does ghee aggravate pitta. Ghee promotes jathagni

and the bhutagnis. Ghee is food for majja-dhatu - bone marrow and nerve

tissue. It also nourishes 'medhagni' - intelligence and the power of

perception; two rather important aspects with which to perform bhakti.

 

Ghee is also the only oleaginous substance which increases sexual vitality

(to manufacture semen & send it upward), enhances ojas (subtle energy

created when food converts to semen and which (Ojas) when utilized properly

becomes tejas) and increases all digestive energies and enzymes within the

body. Neither does ghee clog the liver, as do other fats and oils. Ghee is

the ONLY oleaginous (oily) substance to nourish the brain. Thus even for

spiritual life, ghee is the eating/cooking medium par-excellence since it

nourishes all the dhatus, creates semen and feeds the brain functions. It is

said that ghee that has been aged more than 10 years can revive a man from

coma. We have some here and we are just waiting for some devotee to lapse

into one. Fortunately all the persons here (and those we feed) eat nominal

amounts of ghee on an almost daily basis, so comas have just not happened;

yet(!?).

 

Considering all this Ayurvedic evidence regarding the healthy rewards of

ghee consumption and sastric descriptions of how Mahaprabhu was fed by His

adorers, is it any wonder that persons like Sri Suka and the sad-gosvamins

of Brndabana lived on milk products alone? Can ANY oil claim to do what ghee

does for the body? No. Oil of any description does not even come close to

the health benefits that ghee encompasses. Why should we need to "see this

for (ourselves) over the years" when the Vedic conclusions are so amply

provided by Sri Krsna through his Vedic angas such as Ayurveda?

 

Thus from a health standpoint or from the standpoint of what is offerable to

the Deity and/or devotees, it would seem that the evidentiary facts support

ghee over oil. Had Krsna bestowed oil with greater health, taste or

devotional attributes than ghee, I am sure He would have promoted its use to

us above and beyond ghee. Perhaps He would have said 'krsi tila-raksa' or

'krsi castor-plant raksa' or 'krsi soybean raksa'. After all, Krsna wants to

share what He has and enjoys, with his parts and parcels. Does He not?

"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander".

 

 

 

Regarding the Moscow temple issue, it was never my intention to imply that

the deity worship there is not of a high standard. Since a person like you

is a resident(?) there, I have no doubt that what you say is true and that

your deep learning exerts its influence there and is one of the reasons for

Moscow's excellence in deity worship. I would love to be able to see that

for myself.

 

However; no matter how high a standard one maintains in Deity worship, there

is always room for improvement. Wouldn't you agree? My point was that the

use of soybean oil (specifically) is neither a healthy cooking medium for

devotees nor is it equal to or better than offering foods cooked in ghee, to

Sri Krsna or devotees. On this particular issue it is doubtful that you can

assert that the deity worship is higher than temples that use ghee to cook

for Krsna, especially since that is what He likes to eat. Cleanliness and

punctuality are the 2 main factors Srila Prabhupada has given for puja and

no doubt Moscow comes in first in those areas. But the cooking medium should

be upgraded when it becomes possible. Is it not?

 

I understand that financial reasons are pertinent and serious factors to be

taken into consideration. In fact, some years ago (I think 1984?) when the

BTG came out describing the EXTREME difficulties that the devotees were

undergoing in the former USSR (psychotropic torture, arrests, beatings and

even death) because of the demonic leaders there, and Kirtiraja prabhu asked

for help, we donated what we could at the time, feeling great compunction

toward our dear godbrothers and sisters. I mention this only to show that I

do not have a prejudice against Moscow temple. Rather I envy the devotion

and steadfastness that devotees like you and His Holiness Bhakti vijnana

Maharaja are possesed of.

 

You may be interested to know that about 20 years ago we lived in one North

American temple which consistently cooked prasadam for both the deities and

the devotees in oil. It was our almost daily lamentation. We vainly tried to

convince and coerce the temple authorities that this was a very unhealthy

state of affairs. Later the president died of a massive heart attack and

most devotees became quite ill because of improper diets. Now 20 years

later, they use ghee with which to cook all the preparations even when they

get 5000 visitors for Janmastami! Their argument at the time was the same as

you have given for Moscow. My conviction is like this; if something can work

on a microscopic level (such as using ghee for one family's needs) then it

can probably also work on a macroscopic level.

 

My only contentions are that Soybean oil is BAD for devotees health,

vegetable oils are not comparable to ghee in their properties nor better

than ghee for health, and that ghee is one of the greatest substances known

for the healthy functioning of human bodies. In Srila Prabhupada's words,

Ghee is the product of the "the miracle food, milk". Any oil can hardly be

called that.

 

It was never my intention to "blame" Moscow devotees for anything, as you

suggest. But I do disagree with you when you say,

 

"This type of argument is irrefutable because everything happening after

something can be explained away as happening because of this."

 

This "type of argument" is Srila Prabhupada's (and thus our) STANDARD method

of preaching! We say, "You have ignored or blatently transgressed the laws

of God and THAT is why you are suffering these consequences"? How else would

we explain the problems that the world is suffering, without pointing out

the fact that we have all deviated from the laws of God? We say we have been

sinful and thus we suffer accordingly. Therefore I found that last statement

of yours to be fallacious.

 

Since you have kindly provided us with some quotes regarding the use of oil,

I will leave you with the following quotes about the use of ghee. Personally

I find these to be superlative conclusions in regard to our friendly debate

over ghee vs. oil.

 

"I do not enjoy the oblations offered by the sacrificers in the sacrificial

fire, which is one of My own mouths, with the same relish as I do the

delicacies overflowing with GHEE (emp. mine) which are offered to the mouths

of the brahmanas who have dedicated to Me the results of their activities

and who are ever satisfied with My prasada". [sB.3.16.8]

 

"Similarly, on Kumuda Mountain there is a great banyan tree, which is called

Satavalsa because it has a hundred main branches. From those branches come

many roots, from which many rivers are flowing. These rivers flow down from

the top of the mountain to the northern side of Ilavrta-varsa for the

benefit of those who live there. Because of these flowing rivers, all the

people have ample supplies of milk, yogurt, honey, clarified butter [ghee],

molasses, food grains, clothes, bedding, sitting places and ornaments. All

the objects they desire are sufficiently supplied for their prosperity, and

therefore they are very happy". [sB.5.16.24]

 

"The miserable conditions of this material world can be corrected by a

sufficient supply of milk, yogurt, honey, GHEE, molasses, food grains,

ornaments, bedding, sitting places and so on. This is human civilization.

[sB.5.16.25 PP]

 

Praying for forgiveness of the innumerable offenses I must have committed

toward you in this and previous lives and hoping you are well,

 

your servant,

 

Haridasa vesyadasa

 

 

 

 

 

>>Dear Haridasa-vesyadasa Prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for your letter.

 

>>>... unless an authoritative recipe states otherwise.

>

>1. I would be interested to know about that "authoritative recipe" that

>madan Mohan prabhu talks about. ""authoritative" according to whom? As far

>as I know Srila Prabhupada has never advocated the use of soybean oil for

>any recipe. check the Vedabase and ask Srila Prabhupada direct disciples. I

>think you may find that that is the case.

 

I do not intend to spark and perpetuate a discussion on whether soybean oil

is bonafide or not.

 

But if you re-read my last posting, I referred to "vegetable oils" -- and

not just to soybean oil -- that can sometimes be used in authoritative

recipes suitable for offering to Krsna:

 

"In answer to Krishna Devi's questions: I have not received your cook book

as of yet; mustard seed, etc.—these are exciting spices and should be

avoided; Vegetable ghee is all right if real ghee is not available or easily

acquired". -- SP letter to Dines Candra, 13 July 1971

 

Besides, some Indian traditional cuisines use vegetable oils even when ghee

is available --sesame and coconut oils (South Indian cuisine) and mustard

oil (Bengali cuisine) and there are plenty of traditional Indian recipes

using these oils that can be offered to Krsna:

 

"While staying at the Calcutta Temple in 1973, I became aware of Srila

Prabhupada's fondness for Bengali cooking. Amazingly, during my tenure of

personal service to my beloved Srila Prabhupada, His Divine Grace didn't eat

Bengali-style prasadam very often. Even when he stayed at the Calcutta and

Mayapur temples, he regularly honored prasadam prepared by his western

disciples. The difficulty with the wonderful Bengali preparations, although

quite tasty, was that they often contained mustard oil.

 

"It is difficult for me to digest," Srila Prabhupada would comment.

 

One day at the Calcutta temple, Tamala Krsna Maharaja entered Srila

Prabhupada's room and offered his obeisances. Sitting comfortably behind his

desk, Srila Prabhupada looked as effulgent as ever.

 

"Haven't you said that mustard oil is for the outside of the body and ghee

is for the inside?" Tamala Krsna inquired.

 

"Yes," Srila Prabhupada said, smiling.

 

"Then doesn't that mean that we shouldn't use mustard oil in our cooking?"

Tamala Krsna Maharaja continued. "Sometimes, some of the devotees are using

mustard oil in their cooking. I don't think it is a good idea."

 

"Well, it is true," Srila Prabhupada said. "But, mustard oil is very tasty.

It makes the vegetables taste first-class. Therefore, in Bengal, everyone

uses mustard oil in their cooking. It is very palatable."

-- from Srutakirti Prabhu's "Prabhupada Uvaca"

 

"Reliable stories abound from Srila Prabhupada's servants and cooks about

his love for chidwa. In Calcutta in his childhood his mother had made chidwa

in mustard oil for his celebrations of the Jagannatha Rathayatra."

-- from BTG 1997-01

 

>2. If the Moscow temple has financial difficulties, perhaps one of the

>reasons may be because they use soybean oil INSTEAD of ghee and that

>therefore Krsna is not pleased that He is having to consume such an

>unofferable (to the deity) product.

 

This type of argument is irrefutable because everything happening after

something can be explained away as happening because of this. However,

suffice it to say that Moscow temple standards for Deity cooking have been

amongst the highest in ISKCON for many years. You are welcome to come and

sample it yourself. As for vegetable oils, first of all, they are bonafide

according to the above statement by Srila Prabhupada, and secondly they are

used only for cooking in bulk when ghee is not affordable. Therefore blaming

this fact on devotees as the reason for their financial constrains I find

hardly justifiable.

 

I hope you will exonerate me from discussing health benefits of different

oils vs. ghee. Let everybody see this for oneself over the years.

 

Begging to remain

 

your servant,

Madana-mohana das

 

 

 

 

>This the only reference I found in which Srila Prabhupada said that

>Soybeans ... soybean oil for cooking?

 

Unlike soybeans, soybean oil has close to zero protein in it. So if we are

to oust soybean oil from Krsna kitchens, this should be done for some other

reason than its protein content.

 

Our Moscow temple sometimes uses soybean oil to cook for devotees mainly for

financial reasons. Besides, vegetable oils tend to be much healthier for

regular diet that ghee in the long run. However only cow ghee and butter are

used in cooking for the Deities unless an authoritative recipe states

otherwise.

 

Your servant,

Madana-mohana das

 

 

 

 

 

>>... unless an authoritative recipe states otherwise.

 

1. I would be interested to know about that "authoritative recipe" that

madan Mohan prabhu talks about. ""authoritative" according to whom? As far

as I know Srila Prabhupada has never advocated the use of soybean oil for

any recipe. check the Vedabase and ask Srila Prabhupada direct disciples. I

think you may find that that is the case.

 

Srila Prabhupada's saintly sister Srimati Bhavatarini prabhu, as was the

custom of many Indians and especially Bengalis, used to cook for Srila

Prabhupada in mustard seed oil, which is used primarily because it is

readily available (whereas ghee was not), customary and because of it's

powerful heating properties which thus help with digestion. Srila

Prabhupada's disciples such as Srimati Yamuna prabhu and Srimati Srutirupa

prabhu used to be horrified about this especially because of Srila

Prabupada's ailing health AND because they had always cooked for Srila

Prabhupada - according to his directions - in ghee. Mother Srimati

Bhavatarini prabhu's answer to them was that he (Srila Prabhupada) could

digest stones if he wanted to. And Srila Prabhupada would eat some of his

sister's prasadam to satisfy her. But Srila Prabhupada himself did not

direct his disciples to use the medium of mustard seed oil. check the

Vedabase.

 

2. If the Moscow temple has financial difficulties, perhaps one of the

reasons may be because they use soybean oil INSTEAD of ghee and that

therefore Krsna is not pleased that He is having to consume such an

unofferable (to the deity) product . naturally if ghee is not available in

some area, then perhaps some other lower class cooking medium could be used.

but this idea that for 'financial reasons we are cooking in soybean oil' is

an old excuse from the older days of Iskcon, as I have been told by reliable

persons.

 

3. The prime reason that devotees eat is for Krsna's pleasure. Krsna

advocates the protection of cows because they produce milk which produces

GHEE. Throughout sastra ghee is advocated by Krsna and the sages. Krsna does

not glorify the soy bean plant nor advocate it's use as a cooking medium...

as far as I know. Krsna loves cows and THEIR products.

 

4. "... vegetable oils tend to be much healthier for regular diet that

ghee in the long run..."

 

According to whom? Where does this idea originate from? Could you please

provide some authoritative (spiritual/sastric) references for this idea. As

far as I know vegetable oils are not even close to the idea of being better

for a healthier diet.

 

5. In the old days - again I rely here upon Srila Prabhupada's direct sisyas

as my reliable sources - devotees used to eat inordinate amounts of fried

(in ghee) foods since that was what was being cooked for the deity,

according to Srila Prabhupada's direct directions. Later (some) persons who

were concerned for devotees failing health realized that perhaps they (the

devotees) should not be consuming the rather large amounts of sugar and ghee

that they were indeed used to doing. The gist of the matter is that devotees

- according to their Ayurvedic constitutions - should consume prasadam

according to their specific needs, but that does not mean they should use

soybean oil instead of ghee.

 

IN GENERAL devotees should NOT consume large amounts of fried (in ghee)

foods that are offered to Krsna. But when and if one DOES so, it should be

foods that are fried in ghee and not soybean oil or any other oil; according

to Srila Prabhupada.

 

your servant,

Haridasa vesyadasa