Guest guest Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 According to Ayurveda ghee is the supreme cooking medium. In fact, anything not cooked in ghee is considered not cooked at all, and raw foods are considered low class. ys, jdd > Dear Madana-mohana prabhu, > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > > Thank you so much for your learned response. I also had not thought about > the South Indian cuisines which do sometimes use sesame and coconut oils. > You are quite correct and thank you for correcting me. I was focusing on > the instructions of Srila Prabhupada and our Gaudiya ancestry. However I > think that your use of the term 'bonafide' is not an appropriate > terminology for our discussion so I will limit my comments accordingly. > > I do note however that in the quotes from Srila Prabhupada (et al) that > you provided supporting the use of oils as a cooking medium, Srila > Prabhupada does not ADVOCATE the use of these oils as mediums for offering > to the deity nor for regular consumption by devotees. Honestly, I found > the quotes you provided with regard to the use of oils, as being > supportive of MY arguments and not yours. These quotes implied concessions > that Srila Prabhupada approved of or personal taste (as a Bengali) as > opposed to recommendations or directions of what devotees or Krsna should > eat. From these quotes it seemed rather obvious that he considers such > oils as secondary; to be used if ghee is NOT available, which was my > contention. From these quotes it would seem that ghee is obviously the > default cooking medium preferred. Would you not agree? > > >>But if you re-read my last posting, I referred to "vegetable oils" -- > >>and not just to soybean oil -- that can sometimes be used in > >>authoritative recipes suitable for offering to Krsna:">> > > It is a fact that other sampradayas consider oils such as coconut > (referred to in Sth India as a kalpa-vrksa) or Tila (sesamum) as their > preferred cooking mediums. However we, as Gaudiyas and specifically Srila > Prabhupada's followers, like to accept these persons as our authorities. > From even a cursory reading of SB and CC it is apparent that 'first class > foods' such as those offered to Mahaprabhu, are those that are cooked in > ghee, and not oil. How often does Srila Prabhupada tell that story of > Carvaka muni who advocates even theft so that one may purchase ghee and > enjoy life? Srila Prabhupada also says that in svarga, the devas subsist > only on foods cooked in ghee "everything they eat is prepared in clarified > butter". [sB.9.14.23] It is therefore to be understood that 'first class > foods' refers to foods cooked in ghee; and not oils of whatever > persuasion. > > Whether a recipe uses oil or ghee though, is a different issue to whether > it is offerable to the deity or not AND whether it is healthy. For example > some medicines also contain things unofferable to Sri Krsna, yet under > certain extraordinary circumstances can be consumed. > > The thrust of my post was, > > 1. that vegetable oils of any kind are not Srila Prabhupada's nor sastra's > preferences nor directions to us to cook for either the Deity or devotees, > 2. that oils are NOT better for health than ghee, as you stated. > > > My post was NOT concerned about whether other (Vaisnava) traditions or > other disciplines do use oils for cooking. > > >>"I hope you will exonerate me from discussing health benefits of > >>different > oils vs. ghee. Let everybody see this for oneself over the years.">> > > > Prabhu, was it also not you who stated, > > "... vegetable oils tend to be much healthier for regular diet that ghee > in the long run..." ? > > It hardly seems fair to state that and then ask to be exonerated from the > discussion. And if "everybody (is to) see this for oneself over the years" > that would tend to refute your previous statement that "vegetable oils > tend to be much healthier". If we are all to wait and see, how can you > make the assertion in the first place? Your statement regarding the > consumption of vegetable oils being healthier than ghee professes an air > of authority to it and not just an opinion and this is the reason I took > exception to it, wanting not to appear challenging to your good self, but > desiring that devotees who may be reading these exchanges be well > informed. But to now say you wish to be excluded from the debate of > whether "vegetable oils tend to be much healthier that ghee in the long > run...", I feel is not fair to any of us. > > Since it was you who raised the 'health' issue I would like to comment on > that. According to Sri Agnivesa in his Caraka Samhita, Ghee is one of the > nine "Indicated" foods (along with rice, mung, etc.,) to be consumed > regularly (daily) by humans. Oil is not mentioned. Ghee is also considered > by Sri Agnivesa to be the unctuous (as in oleation) substance > "par-excellence" because of its properties. Ghee alone has the power to > assimilate the properties of ALL other substances it is mixed with. > According to Dr. Vasant Lad and Dr. David Frawley - karmi experts in > Sanskrit, Ayurvedic and Vedic scriptures - ghee is the only medium which > can be mixed with any Rasayana (tonic or rejuventive) herb, whereas this > is not true with oils. Neither does ghee aggravate pitta. Ghee promotes > jathagni and the bhutagnis. Ghee is food for majja-dhatu - bone marrow and > nerve tissue. It also nourishes 'medhagni' - intelligence and the power of > perception; two rather important aspects with which to perform bhakti. > > Ghee is also the only oleaginous substance which increases sexual vitality > (to manufacture semen & send it upward), enhances ojas (subtle energy > created when food converts to semen and which (Ojas) when utilized > properly becomes tejas) and increases all digestive energies and enzymes > within the body. Neither does ghee clog the liver, as do other fats and > oils. Ghee is the ONLY oleaginous (oily) substance to nourish the brain. > Thus even for spiritual life, ghee is the eating/cooking medium > par-excellence since it nourishes all the dhatus, creates semen and feeds > the brain functions. It is said that ghee that has been aged more than 10 > years can revive a man from coma. We have some here and we are just > waiting for some devotee to lapse into one. Fortunately all the persons > here (and those we feed) eat nominal amounts of ghee on an almost daily > basis, so comas have just not happened; yet(!?). > > Considering all this Ayurvedic evidence regarding the healthy rewards of > ghee consumption and sastric descriptions of how Mahaprabhu was fed by His > adorers, is it any wonder that persons like Sri Suka and the sad-gosvamins > of Brndabana lived on milk products alone? Can ANY oil claim to do what > ghee does for the body? No. Oil of any description does not even come > close to the health benefits that ghee encompasses. Why should we need to > "see this for (ourselves) over the years" when the Vedic conclusions are > so amply provided by Sri Krsna through his Vedic angas such as Ayurveda? > > Thus from a health standpoint or from the standpoint of what is offerable > to the Deity and/or devotees, it would seem that the evidentiary facts > support ghee over oil. Had Krsna bestowed oil with greater health, taste > or devotional attributes than ghee, I am sure He would have promoted its > use to us above and beyond ghee. Perhaps He would have said 'krsi > tila-raksa' or 'krsi castor-plant raksa' or 'krsi soybean raksa'. After > all, Krsna wants to share what He has and enjoys, with his parts and > parcels. Does He not? "What's good for the goose, is good for the gander". > > > > Regarding the Moscow temple issue, it was never my intention to imply that > the deity worship there is not of a high standard. Since a person like you > is a resident(?) there, I have no doubt that what you say is true and that > your deep learning exerts its influence there and is one of the reasons > for Moscow's excellence in deity worship. I would love to be able to see > that for myself. > > However; no matter how high a standard one maintains in Deity worship, > there is always room for improvement. Wouldn't you agree? My point was > that the use of soybean oil (specifically) is neither a healthy cooking > medium for devotees nor is it equal to or better than offering foods > cooked in ghee, to Sri Krsna or devotees. On this particular issue it is > doubtful that you can assert that the deity worship is higher than temples > that use ghee to cook for Krsna, especially since that is what He likes to > eat. Cleanliness and punctuality are the 2 main factors Srila Prabhupada > has given for puja and no doubt Moscow comes in first in those areas. But > the cooking medium should be upgraded when it becomes possible. Is it not? > > I understand that financial reasons are pertinent and serious factors to > be taken into consideration. In fact, some years ago (I think 1984?) when > the BTG came out describing the EXTREME difficulties that the devotees > were undergoing in the former USSR (psychotropic torture, arrests, > beatings and even death) because of the demonic leaders there, and > Kirtiraja prabhu asked for help, we donated what we could at the time, > feeling great compunction toward our dear godbrothers and sisters. I > mention this only to show that I do not have a prejudice against Moscow > temple. Rather I envy the devotion and steadfastness that devotees like > you and His Holiness Bhakti vijnana Maharaja are possesed of. > > You may be interested to know that about 20 years ago we lived in one > North American temple which consistently cooked prasadam for both the > deities and the devotees in oil. It was our almost daily lamentation. We > vainly tried to convince and coerce the temple authorities that this was a > very unhealthy state of affairs. Later the president died of a massive > heart attack and most devotees became quite ill because of improper diets. > Now 20 years later, they use ghee with which to cook all the preparations > even when they get 5000 visitors for Janmastami! Their argument at the > time was the same as you have given for Moscow. My conviction is like > this; if something can work on a microscopic level (such as using ghee for > one family's needs) then it can probably also work on a macroscopic level. > > My only contentions are that Soybean oil is BAD for devotees health, > vegetable oils are not comparable to ghee in their properties nor better > than ghee for health, and that ghee is one of the greatest substances > known for the healthy functioning of human bodies. In Srila Prabhupada's > words, Ghee is the product of the "the miracle food, milk". Any oil can > hardly be called that. > > It was never my intention to "blame" Moscow devotees for anything, as you > suggest. But I do disagree with you when you say, > > "This type of argument is irrefutable because everything happening after > something can be explained away as happening because of this." > > This "type of argument" is Srila Prabhupada's (and thus our) STANDARD > method of preaching! We say, "You have ignored or blatently transgressed > the laws of God and THAT is why you are suffering these consequences"? How > else would we explain the problems that the world is suffering, without > pointing out the fact that we have all deviated from the laws of God? We > say we have been sinful and thus we suffer accordingly. Therefore I found > that last statement of yours to be fallacious. > > Since you have kindly provided us with some quotes regarding the use of > oil, I will leave you with the following quotes about the use of ghee. > Personally I find these to be superlative conclusions in regard to our > friendly debate over ghee vs. oil. > > "I do not enjoy the oblations offered by the sacrificers in the > sacrificial fire, which is one of My own mouths, with the same relish as I > do the delicacies overflowing with GHEE (emp. mine) which are offered to > the mouths of the brahmanas who have dedicated to Me the results of their > activities and who are ever satisfied with My prasada". [sB.3.16.8] > > "Similarly, on Kumuda Mountain there is a great banyan tree, which is > called Satavalsa because it has a hundred main branches. From those > branches come many roots, from which many rivers are flowing. These rivers > flow down from the top of the mountain to the northern side of > Ilavrta-varsa for the benefit of those who live there. Because of these > flowing rivers, all the people have ample supplies of milk, yogurt, honey, > clarified butter [ghee], molasses, food grains, clothes, bedding, sitting > places and ornaments. All the objects they desire are sufficiently > supplied for their prosperity, and therefore they are very happy". > [sB.5.16.24] > > "The miserable conditions of this material world can be corrected by a > sufficient supply of milk, yogurt, honey, GHEE, molasses, food grains, > ornaments, bedding, sitting places and so on. This is human civilization. > [sB.5.16.25 PP] > > Praying for forgiveness of the innumerable offenses I must have committed > toward you in this and previous lives and hoping you are well, > > your servant, > > Haridasa vesyadasa > > > > > >>Dear Haridasa-vesyadasa Prabhu, > > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > > Thank you for your letter. > > >>>... unless an authoritative recipe states otherwise. > > > >1. I would be interested to know about that "authoritative recipe" that > >madan Mohan prabhu talks about. ""authoritative" according to whom? As > >far as I know Srila Prabhupada has never advocated the use of soybean oil > >for any recipe. check the Vedabase and ask Srila Prabhupada direct > >disciples. I think you may find that that is the case. > > I do not intend to spark and perpetuate a discussion on whether soybean > oil is bonafide or not. > > But if you re-read my last posting, I referred to "vegetable oils" -- and > not just to soybean oil -- that can sometimes be used in authoritative > recipes suitable for offering to Krsna: > > "In answer to Krishna Devi's questions: I have not received your cook book > as of yet; mustard seed, etc.—these are exciting spices and should be > avoided; Vegetable ghee is all right if real ghee is not available or > easily acquired". -- SP letter to Dines Candra, 13 July 1971 > > Besides, some Indian traditional cuisines use vegetable oils even when > ghee is available --sesame and coconut oils (South Indian cuisine) and > mustard oil (Bengali cuisine) and there are plenty of traditional Indian > recipes using these oils that can be offered to Krsna: > > "While staying at the Calcutta Temple in 1973, I became aware of Srila > Prabhupada's fondness for Bengali cooking. Amazingly, during my tenure of > personal service to my beloved Srila Prabhupada, His Divine Grace didn't > eat Bengali-style prasadam very often. Even when he stayed at the Calcutta > and Mayapur temples, he regularly honored prasadam prepared by his western > disciples. The difficulty with the wonderful Bengali preparations, > although quite tasty, was that they often contained mustard oil. > > "It is difficult for me to digest," Srila Prabhupada would comment. > > One day at the Calcutta temple, Tamala Krsna Maharaja entered Srila > Prabhupada's room and offered his obeisances. Sitting comfortably behind > his desk, Srila Prabhupada looked as effulgent as ever. > > "Haven't you said that mustard oil is for the outside of the body and ghee > is for the inside?" Tamala Krsna inquired. > > "Yes," Srila Prabhupada said, smiling. > > "Then doesn't that mean that we shouldn't use mustard oil in our cooking?" > Tamala Krsna Maharaja continued. "Sometimes, some of the devotees are > using mustard oil in their cooking. I don't think it is a good idea." > > "Well, it is true," Srila Prabhupada said. "But, mustard oil is very > tasty. It makes the vegetables taste first-class. Therefore, in Bengal, > everyone uses mustard oil in their cooking. It is very palatable." > -- from Srutakirti Prabhu's "Prabhupada Uvaca" > > "Reliable stories abound from Srila Prabhupada's servants and cooks about > his love for chidwa. In Calcutta in his childhood his mother had made > chidwa in mustard oil for his celebrations of the Jagannatha Rathayatra." > -- from BTG 1997-01 > > >2. If the Moscow temple has financial difficulties, perhaps one of the > >reasons may be because they use soybean oil INSTEAD of ghee and that > >therefore Krsna is not pleased that He is having to consume such an > >unofferable (to the deity) product. > > This type of argument is irrefutable because everything happening after > something can be explained away as happening because of this. However, > suffice it to say that Moscow temple standards for Deity cooking have been > amongst the highest in ISKCON for many years. You are welcome to come and > sample it yourself. As for vegetable oils, first of all, they are bonafide > according to the above statement by Srila Prabhupada, and secondly they > are used only for cooking in bulk when ghee is not affordable. Therefore > blaming this fact on devotees as the reason for their financial constrains > I find hardly justifiable. > > I hope you will exonerate me from discussing health benefits of different > oils vs. ghee. Let everybody see this for oneself over the years. > > Begging to remain > > your servant, > Madana-mohana das > > > > > >This the only reference I found in which Srila Prabhupada said that > >Soybeans ... soybean oil for cooking? > > Unlike soybeans, soybean oil has close to zero protein in it. So if we are > to oust soybean oil from Krsna kitchens, this should be done for some > other reason than its protein content. > > Our Moscow temple sometimes uses soybean oil to cook for devotees mainly > for financial reasons. Besides, vegetable oils tend to be much healthier > for regular diet that ghee in the long run. However only cow ghee and > butter are used in cooking for the Deities unless an authoritative recipe > states otherwise. > > Your servant, > Madana-mohana das > > > > > >>... unless an authoritative recipe states otherwise. > > 1. I would be interested to know about that "authoritative recipe" that > madan Mohan prabhu talks about. ""authoritative" according to whom? As far > as I know Srila Prabhupada has never advocated the use of soybean oil for > any recipe. check the Vedabase and ask Srila Prabhupada direct disciples. > I think you may find that that is the case. > > Srila Prabhupada's saintly sister Srimati Bhavatarini prabhu, as was the > custom of many Indians and especially Bengalis, used to cook for Srila > Prabhupada in mustard seed oil, which is used primarily because it is > readily available (whereas ghee was not), customary and because of it's > powerful heating properties which thus help with digestion. Srila > Prabhupada's disciples such as Srimati Yamuna prabhu and Srimati Srutirupa > prabhu used to be horrified about this especially because of Srila > Prabupada's ailing health AND because they had always cooked for Srila > Prabhupada - according to his directions - in ghee. Mother Srimati > Bhavatarini prabhu's answer to them was that he (Srila Prabhupada) could > digest stones if he wanted to. And Srila Prabhupada would eat some of his > sister's prasadam to satisfy her. But Srila Prabhupada himself did not > direct his disciples to use the medium of mustard seed oil. check the > Vedabase. > > 2. If the Moscow temple has financial difficulties, perhaps one of the > reasons may be because they use soybean oil INSTEAD of ghee and that > therefore Krsna is not pleased that He is having to consume such an > unofferable (to the deity) product . naturally if ghee is not available in > some area, then perhaps some other lower class cooking medium could be > used. but this idea that for 'financial reasons we are cooking in soybean > oil' is an old excuse from the older days of Iskcon, as I have been told > by reliable persons. > > 3. The prime reason that devotees eat is for Krsna's pleasure. Krsna > advocates the protection of cows because they produce milk which produces > GHEE. Throughout sastra ghee is advocated by Krsna and the sages. Krsna > does not glorify the soy bean plant nor advocate it's use as a cooking > medium... as far as I know. Krsna loves cows and THEIR products. > > 4. "... vegetable oils tend to be much healthier for regular diet that > ghee in the long run..." > > According to whom? Where does this idea originate from? Could you please > provide some authoritative (spiritual/sastric) references for this idea. > As far as I know vegetable oils are not even close to the idea of being > better for a healthier diet. > > 5. In the old days - again I rely here upon Srila Prabhupada's direct > sisyas as my reliable sources - devotees used to eat inordinate amounts of > fried (in ghee) foods since that was what was being cooked for the deity, > according to Srila Prabhupada's direct directions. Later (some) persons > who were concerned for devotees failing health realized that perhaps they > (the devotees) should not be consuming the rather large amounts of sugar > and ghee that they were indeed used to doing. The gist of the matter is > that devotees - according to their Ayurvedic constitutions - should > consume prasadam according to their specific needs, but that does not mean > they should use soybean oil instead of ghee. > > IN GENERAL devotees should NOT consume large amounts of fried (in ghee) > foods that are offered to Krsna. But when and if one DOES so, it should be > foods that are fried in ghee and not soybean oil or any other oil; > according to Srila Prabhupada. > > your servant, > Haridasa vesyadasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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