An Interesting DEbate on God

[Gauracandra]

A very interesting debate:

 

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0086.htm

 

I think there are two key arguments in this article:

1) We all have experience of matter and that experience is in the finitude of matter. Thus the question of the source of matter must be something outside of the argument itself. God is defined as the cause of all causes. Thus without something outside of matter we can't explain the source of matter.

2)Free will must be outside its own cause. If you simply believe in matter you can't believe in free will.

 

Check out the debate in the article. Its quite interesting.

[harerama]

 

A very interesting debate:

 

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0086.htm

 

I think there are two key arguments in this article:

1) We all have experience of matter and that experience is in the finitude of matter. Thus the question of the source of matter must be something outside of the argument itself. God is defined as the cause of all causes. Thus without something outside of matter we can't explain the source of matter.

2)Free will must be outside its own cause. If you simply believe in matter you can't believe in free will.

 

Check out the debate in the article. Its quite interesting.

 

 

I have another article which pretty much obliterates any kind of reasoning you or I can put up for the existence of God, at least based on mystical experiences as they are merely products of brain chemistry, nothing more. If that is true, meditation is a worthless enterprise other than to willfully engage in self-delusion so you can live a "better" life.

 

I'm sorry but the only reason I really felt like the existence of God was possible was because I heard of mystical experiences of God, that visions by Christ, by Vedic rishis, etc. justified the existence of God. But now that very foundation of reasoning is obliterated, what's left? There is no real logical argument you can make for the existence of God, at least based on mystical experiences. Why we have these mystical experiences can also be explained away with Darwinian evolution, so what is left really?

 

This is the article in question: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html?pg=1&topic=&topic_set=

 

I feel really depressed about this, as unless you are the most ardent believer in God, this really destroys a person's worldview if he does believe in God or wants to believe in God, such as myself. I just don't see any room left to assert that mystical experiences can be genuine and that they are any sort of proof for God. As far as I know, no mystical experience has ever been successfully able to correlate with external reality regarding events that the subject has no way of knowing before that mystical experience. The idea of telepathy, levitation, visions of God, astral projection, all of that is the actual illusion, not like what the Vedic rishis asserted was the Truth, and that what we see in our everyday lives is the illusion.

 

The questions left would be to ask for instance how a guru transfers his shakti to a disciple, how he can induce a vision of God simply by touch. But I feel that too is easily explainable as a form of hypnosis, of simple suggestion, when a disciple's mind has become sufficiently pliable. Also, the idea of kundalini rising or shakti itself is merely illusory aspects of brain chemistry imbalances. Whether those imbalances are evolutionary advantages is really up for debate, but in the end that's all it comes down to though.

 

The real question might be ultimately reduced to: Are we better off believing in God as a species or understanding that there is no such thing as God or afterlife?

 

There are many who can live with atheism, who have no problems doing so, but there are many who can't, many who live in dire circumstances and all they have is their faith or hope that there is something out there, that their suffering is for a higher purpose. I've found it difficult to believe in an atheistic worldview, one that is without any hope at all, and without any real meaning or higher purpose behind anything. My sense of being connected with everyone in my family is also at jeopardy, because my own state of mind, my belief in something more than what I can see, or at least my hope for something more, fueled my participation with others in my family. Before that, I was distant and rarely ever spoke to them. I was an atheist because I saw no reason to believe in God. I've heard stories recently of "miraculous" circumstances of my family, I've also found a reason for hope and for faith in God, but all of that is pretty much obliterated with the knowledge that it's all illusory in the end, that this world is the only reality, there truly is nothing more.

 

I find it arrogant of people like Richard Dawkins to try to disabuse people of the notion of God so vehemently like he's doing the world a favor. In that sense, he is blind, and a fool, but unfortunately, his worldview in the end seems to be true.

[theist]

 

I have another article which pretty much obliterates any kind of reasoning you or I can put up for the existence of God, at least based on mystical experiences as they are merely products of brain chemistry, nothing more. If that is true, meditation is a worthless enterprise other than to willfully engage in self-delusion so you can live a "better" life.

 

point 1 was that there must be a cause of matter outside of matter itself. The brain chemistry argument does not satisfy because the brain is also matter.

 

This brain chemistry argument is put forth by dishonest nureoscientists who begin their investigations from the mistaken premise that there is no spiritual reality and therefore everything must be a product of the brain.

 

A real scientist follows the evidence wherever it may lead and then forms his conclusions based on where he has been lead. These psuedo scientists are not worthy of the name 'scientist' and are nothing more than educated fools.

[theist]

 

I'm sorry but the only reason I really felt like the existence of God was possible was because I heard of mystical experiences of God, that visions by Christ, by Vedic rishis, etc. justified the existence of God. But now that very foundation of reasoning is obliterated, what's left? There is no real logical argument you can make for the existence of God, at least based on mystical experiences.

The existence of God can never be satifactorly arrived at by trying to analyze the eperience of others. The material mind's nature is to accept and reject various ideas. From this platform sometimes we will accept God and at other times reject Him.

 

What is needed is for each individual to have his or her own personal experience with God. God is Self-revealing. We can never be sure unless He chooses to make Himself known to us. Therefore one prayer that devotees use is "Oh Lord of the universe kindly be visible unto me."

 

I know these doubts are plaguing you now harerama but when resolved you will spiritually very strong for having honestly faced them.

 

And remember even an atheist can chant Hare Krsna. Chanting brings transcendental truth and is not dependent upon our having this truth before we can begin chanting.

[Sridas]

Srila Sridara Maharaj would often say, "Our world is in the mind"

And as Krsna has stated, "The mind can be our best friend... or worst enemy"

And also "A man or woman are known by their ideal"

 

Krsna has been supplying tangible faith to the theist and doubt to the athiest since time immemorial, or as He states... rememberance and forgetfulness.

Obviously many so-called visions are no more than halucinations, the Lord no doubt knows each and every heart, and their verying degrees of sincerity, and we are told He will make himself known to us accordingly.We can also see He is attracted by guru-vaisnava seva, this is the key. Even a demon may see God but they don't want to serve God or his devotee, because that means sacrifice.

I have found many of the greatest devotees are simply focussed on their seva and this is where the mystic transmission takes place. Many priceless gifts are bestowed on the servitor in the form of everincreasing hunger for more bhakti, realizations and revelations that relieve doubt, frustration, dissapointment, depression, fear, anxiety etc. Tangibly developing those pious qualities that automaticly connects us to real life, surrounding ones life with auspiciousness, in the form of favourable company that helps perpetuate firmer conviction in divinities Grace, giving deeper appreciation of the unlimited mercy and justice of the absolute that can be traced everywhere. This is seeing God, not nessacarily Swayam Bhagavan and his three folded bending form of charm and beauty, but by the grace of transcendental knowledge coming from the testaments of His inumerable surrendered saints, who help to reveal His presence everywhere, in each and every atom. If he wants to reveal more that is His sole Right. His full dharsan would probably melt us on the spot.

 

 

I find it arrogant of people like Richard Dawkins to try to disabuse people of the notion of God so vehemently like he's doing the world a favor. In that sense, he is blind, and a fool, but unfortunately, his worldview in the end seems to be true

 

True for him and perhaps those who are vulnerable to accept his reality. As Theist has pointed out, it is a subjective experience, try reading Srila Sridhar Maharaj's Subjective Evolution of Consciousness and see what that leaves you feeling, as to what or rather who is the Truth. Of course it also depends on our capacity to catch the Truth when He is given, one utterance of Krsna from a God realized soul can reveal God in an instant if we are receptive.

Dawkins conception is devoid of satisfactory fullfilment, it is not our reality for it has no anandam when filed in our consciousness beside this Krsna conception.

If it leaves you empty and depressed it may be because it is empty. I'd say this is also why Mahaprabhu warns us not to entertain the impersonalist doctrines. Don't give reception to them if they arn't fullfiling.

As SSM has told;

 

Only He knows what is the purpose of every atom, every atom has got its utility and He is the only one who knows that purpose and He sees the divine luminous form of all. He is conscious of the purpose of all existence and He is independent, not responsible to explain to anyone. Every atom’s purpose in life is to satisfy him, this is Hegel’s theory. Reality by Himself and for Himself “Every wave and every movement is to fulfill My purpose, you are also Mine, belonging to me wholesale, but now you have put yourself in such a position that you have to search for me.”

Sometimes a man, a beast, tree, bird, creeper, the external understanding is according to the person who is relating to the object, the estimation is different according to the seer, the vision of the seer, the world is in the mind. The classification will be different according to the estimation of the reader how refined their vision may be. Like when Krsna entered the arena of Kamsa.

mallanam-asa-nirnrnam naravarh srina

smaro murtiman .

gopanam svajano satamksiti-bhujam santa svapriroh sisuh

mrtyur-bhoja-pater-virada-vidusam tattvam param yoginam

vrisninam paradevitetividito rangam gatah sagrajah

According to their vision, everyone saw him with a different estimation, he was viewed according to the respective mentality of every spectator. The people saw him as a divine super human being, while the ladies saw him as the Lord of love and the cowherds as their kinsman while Kamsa saw him as death personified. Relative and Absolute. And the vast majority of the atheists in this world won't ever get to see him at all unless they come into contact with devotees then through His Name He starts to make Himself known.

 

This is a collage that just sorta' came thru me last night while i was designing a bhakti yoga poster for some godrothers. It is interesting the jiva down below is perplexed Who am I? What is the purpose and goal of life, where am i going? etc. And the lady is the higher swarup shedding light through worship (arotik) on the way to go. I thought it may just be relevant to this thread.

All these blue images came together, so i stitched em into a collage. After about 3 hours the process really transported me somewhere else and then my designing program crashed and it felt like i was going to too. I thought it had all dissapeared only to find it was recovered so I thought I'd share it.

Click on thumb to enlarge

[gHari]

Once upon a time there was a man in an underground dungeon. For years and years the man lived in the dark with only a lantern to provide light.

 

When set free he was told of the great things he would see when he was released. The man quickly grabbed his lantern so he could see the marvels of the free world. He just could not believe that he would not need his lantern to see the sun.

 

And so it is with the mind and God. We are conditioned to believe that our little mind will be required to know that God exists, just as the prisoner thought his lantern would be needed to see the sun.

[Bishadi]

 

:

1) We all have experience of matter and that experience is in the finitude of matter. Thus the question of the source of matter must be something outside of the argument itself. God is defined as the cause of all causes. Thus without something outside of matter we can't explain the source of matter.

An error to think any matter is separate. Once knowing the properties of mass and energy it is easy to see the physical reality that there is actually nothing separate. Once a single atom combines with another, energy is involved and from there if that energy source is captured by another atom, the two atoms irregardless to space are entangled: empirical science: property; entanglement.

 

2)Free will must be outside its own cause. If you simply believe in matter you can't believe in free will.

Best comment I have seen in a long time and it is why the Christians suggest, “in God’s image.” In other words; we are a bundle of atoms (trillions) that ‘knows’ it exists: conscious.

All existence is associated by the energy, (entangled) and it is only as a conscious ‘thing’ do we have that ability to choose. Just think without choice there would be no Love! A cow is instinctive, it lives by what it needs and that is it; governed by environment!

So ‘Yes’ free will is true and then ‘yes’ what is happening may not appear to be known but fundamentally, as mass is accelerated it’s energy ‘entangled’ sheds ‘interactions’ irregardless to time and space; so knowing of then can be consciously known now.

Einstein’s; ‘spooky action at a distance.’

 

I'm sorry but the only reason I really felt like the existence of God was possible was because I heard of mystical experiences of God, that visions by Christ, by Vedic rishis, etc. justified the existence of God. But now that very foundation of reasoning is obliterated, what's left? There is no real logical argument you can make for the existence of God, at least based on mystical experiences.

Yes there is and it is by knowing the sciences, theology and learning(s) of each sect of man. Each has had a similar representation of knowing without being of that period, (prophecy) short the ability to articulate. Nothing magical and of the science just not well understood, yet; keep reading my friend …. .

 

The existence of God can never be satifactorly arrived at by trying to analyze the eperience of others.

I disagree! It is only of the building blocks each has learned and shared that we even have education not to mention theology. Do you remember the babe? They die without you and I and hence we would go extinct!

 

The material mind's nature is to accept and reject various ideas. From this platform sometimes we will accept God and at other times reject Him.

Either of compassion and care or of selfishness or of needs for ‘me alone.’ You just hit good and evil right in the head. Good; supports existence. Evil; is selfishness; separation! What makes you and I so awesome is we can be of both instinct and consciousness. We can procreate to continue our physical life as well as teach another to continue our existence.

Now do you see why the emphasis on chastity? It is said best to exist forever then live forever but I suggest both is heaven; to be alive in both. And with this I say honor your parents with life and exists within both realms of quality.

What is needed is for each individual to have his or her own personal experience with God.

ask any monk or any mountain man … without selfish input by another, as a conscious thing ‘any’ will know God … as

God is Self-revealing.

 

We can never be sure unless He chooses to make Himself known to us. Therefore one prayer that devotees use is "Oh Lord of the universe kindly be visible unto me."

As long as you never think of God as some man or elephant headed critter or even as some thing on some thrown with 6 arms, you will never know. Why do you think some say “no images”? Because there are none. Properties of.. renditions of …. But I could just as easily call you God if that is how simple you want to be or do you prefer the elephant guy also? But come on be fair have you seen all the different ideas? Globally? Have fun, look ‘em up. Be learned to know you are not alone, brother!

Try knowing that all things are associated by the energy in which they capture or emit. Try a music concert; people go into the joint knowing they like a band, watch, sing, participate and when it is done, each begins to associate as if they knew each other, kind, caring, compassionate to each other … they captured a ‘like’ energy source and built from it almost like saying; hare hare Krishna ……. It is a harmonious association for a like cause but the point is just like listening to music all intake of energy from every source is relevant but it is ‘us’ that conscious things that accepts or disregards those inputs; we can either be of positive renditions of the input or as instinctive to defend our selfishness; yet completely entangled as parts to the total; as is the true reality!

a rock thrown into the pond! Live to know this! Plant the tree. Nurture the roots!

Live forever!

I hope this is not too direct but the fact is this; all of the globes theology are saying the same thing but men have been short to define it all but a framework completely of the sciences is emerging that not only will bring all man to understanding, combining them within the sciences, (medicine), and that all our fathers of old did have had a piece of this picture, contributing and each will be found true. (to a point)

As we stand here participants to this day, our fathers are alive now within us contributing.

Honor them with understanding these things because it is of honoring them, of all sects, that this became and to know what is from their works offers the differences to know good and evil.

The good will live forever. The evil will be diluted and eventually go extinct.

The truth is here, setting the tone to shed responsibility to each, what say you?

No sect to preach from, no rituals, no fear, no desire of things; just knowledge and understanding. It is all I have to offer.

[gHari]

Prabhupada later preached about the sufferers he saw in the ocean:

<blockquote>This morning we were talking about the sufferers, what is called? The sea suffers?

Devotees: Surfers.

PrabhupAda: Surfer, yes. (devotees laugh) Surfer. I call "sufferer.Sea-sufferer." (laughter) Sea-surfer, it is practical because we are creating a situation by which we shall become a fish. Yes. Contamination. Just like if you purposely contaminate some disease you must suffer from that disease. KAraNaM guNa-saGgo 'sya sad-asad janma-yoniSu [bg. 13.22], in the Bhagavad-gItA. Why there are different varieties of life? What is the reason? That reason means kAraNam. KRSNa says in the Bhagavad..., kAraNaM guNa-saGgo 'sya sad-asad janma-yoniSu. PrakRteH kriyamANAni prakRti-stho 'pi puruSaH bhuJjante tad-guNAn. So the reason is as we are infecting. The nature's law is so perfect that you infect something, some disease, some contamination, then you must suffer. This is nature's law, automatically going on. KAraNaM guNa-saGgo 'sya.

So there are three modes of material nature--goodness, passion, and ignorance. So long we are in this material world, puruSaH prakRti-stho 'pi bhuJjante tad-guNAn. If we remain in certain place, we must be affected by the modes of that place. So there are three modes, sattva-guNa, rajo-guNa. We have to associate either with the modes of goodness or with the modes of passion or with the modes of ignorance. Now, three into three, it becomes nine, and nine into nine, it becomes eighty-one. So mixture. Just like color. There are three colors: blue, red and yellow. Now, those who are expert in manufacturing color, artists, they mix these three colors in different way and they display. Similarly, according to the guNas or mixture, association--kAraNaM guNa-saGgo 'sya--we get different types of bodies. Therefore we see so many varieties of bodies. KAraNaM guNa-saGgo 'sya [bg. 13.22]. So the person who is taking very much pleasure, dancing in the sea like fish, so he is contaminating that modes of nature so that in next life he will become a fish. He'll be very free to dance with the ocean. (laughter) Now it will take again millions of years to come to the stage of human being. JalajA nava-lakSANi sthAvarA lakSa-viMzati. He has to pass through the fish life. There are 900,000 different species of life. Then you again come to the land--you become trees, plants, and so on. Two millions different forms you have to go through. That is evolution. Darwin's theory of evolution, that is not perfectly explained. It is explained in the Vedic literature. So just a tree is standing for ten thousands of years, we had to pass through this life. But there is no perfect knowledge. We are thinking we are now very nice American body or Indian body. No. It took so many years to come to this life. Therefore zAstra says, labdhvA sudurlAbhaM idaM bahu-sambhavAnte: "You have got this human form of life after many, many millions of years' waiting." So do not misuse it. That is Vedic civilization, not to misuse the human form of life. Nature's law is very, very strict. This life, it is given, a chance. Nature gives a chance. Now you get this human form of life, advanced consciousness. Now you make further improvement. That is wanted. From here we can make further improvement.

What is that further improvement? We can go to the better planets. There are many better planets. You can go there, heavenly planets. There you can live for ten thousands of years. Ten thousands of years, and that is also not our year. The higher planetary system, their one day--our six months. In that way you can live there for ten thousands of years. And the standard of living condition is thousand times better. Therefore it is called heavenly. So if you like, you can go there. UrdhvaM gacchanti sattva-sthaH [bg. 14.18]. YAnti deva-vrataH devAn. Everything is explained. Or if you can go, if you like you can go to the PitRloka. If you want to remain here as human being, you can also remain here, but you have to work for it to keep your position, status. Just like if you become rich man, high standard of life, you have to maintain it. Not that it will continue automatically. No, that is not possible, sir. This material world is not like that: you get one position and it will continue. No. A little discrepancy, immediately deteriorate your position. So you have to maintain it.</blockquote>

[Bishadi]

Interesting analogy with wisdom yet misplaced; for example.

 

So the person who is taking very much pleasure, dancing in the sea like fish, so he is contaminating that modes of nature so that in next life he will become a fish.

As we ‘splash’ in this period, the effects are living. ‘Contaminating,’ would represent a negative, such as raping the resource or like spilling oil over the ocean and killing life. A negative that will be diluted and eventually to become extinct.

But the input of ‘love’ like them that feed the little fish and nurture and provide his energy for the benefit of the life; his life will have roots and the ‘splash’ will continue to be alive.

 

 

He'll be very free to dance with the ocean. (laughter) Now it will take again millions of years to come to the stage of human being. JalajA nava-lakSANi sthAvarA lakSa-viMzati. He has to pass through the fish life. There are 900,000 different species of life. Then you again come to the land--you become trees, plants, and so on. Two millions different forms you have to go through. That is evolution.

If an idea to leave this planet is to become a necessity based on the usefulness remaining becoming suspect, it goes to reason and if our friend here saw these things then by exposure we think, meditate and offer our most humble approach as to the comments and thoughts, that the total (God) may please offer the gift and share more for this to be better understood.

This is why it is suggested to read from all people of the globe; each has something!

 

There are many better planets.

Not yet known!

 

You can go there, heavenly planets. There you can live for ten thousands of years.

How? Oh Vedic literature, how?

 

Ten thousands of years, and that is also not our year. The higher planetary system, their one day--our six months.

Goes to reason since the planet take a long time to circle its sun that days would be longer but the effect would be opposite.

If on earth we live 100 years, it would be roughly 16 years there. Nice thought!

 

In that way you can live there for ten thousands of years. And the standard of living condition is thousand times better. Therefore it is called heavenly. So if you like, you can go there.

So that is heaven! I prefer here, I have a fishing hole that is the just the best producer and I love the flowers and the smells, sounds and well, everything. (to a point)

 

UrdhvaM gacchanti sattva-sthaH [bg. 14.18]. YAnti deva-vrataH devAn. Everything is explained.

Sure it is! Then tell us, your brethren, please how to cure diabetes. There are a bunch of kids that are suffering but if the sciences focused on how proteins associate in a physics (feshbach management) environment, then understanding how rogue (resonance/protein) polluted an organism would be easy

 

Or if you can go, if you like you can go to the PitRloka. If you want to remain here as human being, you can also remain here, but you have to work for it to keep your position, status. Just like if you become rich man, high standard of life, you have to maintain it. Not that it will continue automatically. No, that is not possible, sir. This material world is not like that: you get one position and it will continue. No. A little discrepancy, immediately deteriorate your position. So you have to maintain it.

Then, I would have people kissing my feet all the time and I don’t think that is healthy nor would it be as prophesized or seen.

Remember, each sect has seen the truth but only when honoring and pursuing these variants does a picture come into reality. The One picture of our associated existence all governed by environment and that conscious species of life, US!

We are the only thing that steps outside of laws of nature! We are in that image! We can choose and we can be opposite of good but to know that our choice whether of good support or negative is the choice and existence we will live!

Thanks. …. This was a good item to think on this am, I hope this helps at least One.

[harerama]

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=koepsell_26_6

 

Another article on the probability that all mystical experiences come from natural causes, and obviates the need for a soul.

 

The previous article I posted was about how electromagnetic waves can induce mystical experiences, like drugs can. If these two methods are able to induce mystical experiences, how can anyone say that mystical experiences are authentic? While I am still trying to meditate and chant, any sort of peace I get now is destroyed simply because now I have the notion that I'm inducing this state, and that brain chemistry is involved, there is no spirit to ponder upon, no God to interact with, or contemplate upon. Any feeling of divinity, or a divine presence is merely a matter of brain chemistry, at least that's how I have come to look at it (not willingly) when I do get a calm relaxed feeling along with the feeling I am in the presence of God. This state is destroyed as soon as the notion pops into my head that it's not real.

 

I really want to believe in God, and that there's a soul, but I just don't see any reason to, because science seems to have explained all these states of awareness. Since there is little to no evidence that these states of awareness can make a person cognizant of the external reality even though he is deprived of the functioning of his senses, it's an increasingly disheartening prospect to ponder upon, that maybe materialism is all there really is.

 

Every mystical state that has been documented by scientists seems to have some correlation with brain activity, which can now be measured. Time magazine even did a story on how the brain functioned when people went into a meditative trance. Doesn't the brain have to be completely silent in order for a mystical experience to be truly authentic? For the soul's existence to be validated?

 

What would constitute an authentic mystical experience anyway?

 

And with such doubts re: the validity of these mystical experiences, how does pursuing a personal and direct experience of God constitute proof when there is a mountain of evidence to indicate that personal experience is easily a product of brain chemistry and thus most likely delusion? How can one convince himself that the experience he's having is real?

[gHari]

You take the word of men who use lanterns to see the sun. Are we all idiots? Is it all Messiah-complex? Those who have seen have no doubt at all - no matter how many plugs and wires the white coats might stick in them. Perhaps some fantasies have been uprooted. Is that not a good thing? God is not so cheap.

 

God is more than a cheap buzz.

[Guest guest]

Hail and Namaste,

 

Does the answer have to be one way or the other? You attack this issue as if it has to be either matter or spirit when that particular posiition is faulty at best. From the Vedic viewpoint, all things are imbued with spirit, soul, or God. From the Monist viewpoint all things are one soul, spirit, or God. God is ultimate scientist. Do you actually think that all spiritual happenings must be mystical or unnatural? Does it not make more sense that God would craft us in a way so that having mystical experiences would be natural, or induced in some way that relies on natural properties? It would be like asking the cable guy to give us TV with a banana and twizzlers. If the mechanics if you will, could not allow for it in the first place, then the reality of mystical experience would not even exist to talk about. The "God Spot" in the brain developed for a reason. It developed so that we would be able to know the Truth. The existence of these chemical and bio-electric reactions are not disproofs of the spirit or of God, but rather an undeniable glimpse into the mastermind of the Primal Soul...the ultimate scientist...of whom without, we would not be.

[Nrsinghadev]

 

Interesting analogy with wisdom yet misplaced; for example......

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First of all to Bishadi, the smugness in the form of your comments by which you are attempting to cast shadows on this written conversation cannot ever eclipse the light emanating from the magnificent person who has spoken these words. As far as the subject matter at hand is concerned I have recently read through Exodus and I must say that if anyone, who's sole conception of God stems from the Holy Bible, and who's knowledge of God doesn't reach beyond that same Bible, turns into an atheist, I can't say I blame them. First of all there is no description of God whatsoever, just a voice from a burning bush and a cloud. And to just give an impression of what He speaks when He speaks, here are some excerpts:

........ the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs in the evening. 7 Then they shall take some of the blood, and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat them. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted; ..... 9 Do not eat any of it raw or boiled with water, but roasted, its head with its legs and its inner parts......... ..... For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD...... 13 ......... Every firstling of an ass you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck...... .... 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God..... ..... When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money............ "When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be clear. 29 But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death..... .....3 "Then you shall bring the bull before the tent of meeting. Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands upon the head of the bull, 11 and you shall kill the bull before the LORD, at the door of the tent of meeting, 12 and shall take part of the blood of the bull and put it upon the horns of the altar with your finger, and the rest of the blood you shall pour out at the base of the altar. 13 And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, and the appendage of the liver, and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them, and burn them upon the altar......15 "Then you shall take one of the rams, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands upon the head of the ram, 16 and you shall slaughter the ram, and shall take its blood and throw it against the altar round about. 17 Then you shall cut the ram into pieces, and wash its entrails and its legs, and put them with its pieces and its head, 18 and burn the whole ram upon the altar; it is a burnt offering to the LORD; it is a pleasing odor, an offering by fire to the LORD.

So it is not difficult to understand why today,people born and raised in a supposedly Christian environment are turning into atheists. First of all, in their capitalist environment there is a barrage of material excess all around, with which the people are bombarded and lured. Then when they turn to the nearest spiritual platform, that of Christianity, they find a God who says such things as quoted above. Now even as a mere aspiring Vaisnava, I am, thanks to the unlimited wisdom of the Vaisnava Acarya's , able to rationalize even these sort of texts found in the old testament. God possesses all qualities, so even a quality such as jealousy is part of the Lord, except that He remains unaffected by it. For play He may manifest Himself as if jealous. Only God however, is able to take such an abominable quality and put it to good use. Similarly, Krishna stresses cow protection in the Vedas, so the opposite must also be there. The opposite won't be manifested in the spiritual world, so it must manifest in the material world. But God also knows that the soul is eternal, and that all our miseries are simply due to our identifying ourselves with our bodies, and whatever Krishna does is for the ultimate good of all living beings. Anyway, generally speaking, the gross materialist will not be able to ever reconcile these harsh words and prescriptions of God as given in Exodus and consequently, upon hearing the criticism of the atheist, will favor the word of the atheist over the word of the Bible. The atheists think that they have finally found the rosetta stone with which they have deciphered and debunked the "God phenomena" in the form of the recent mind-brain dependency theory. And indeed, any Christian will have himself a hard time trying to rebut their theory but what do we find in the Vedic scriptures? Theist already pointed this out nicely; mind intelligence and false ego, however subtle, are still a part of this material existence. It is not the spritual. I don't therefore see why anyone who has studied the Vedic literature under bonafide guidance would start to doubt the existence of God on account of a few atheistic articles such as the wired article. They are playing a little bluff poker but they have no idea that we already know their cards are not suitable to play the game with. Lastly, this had me laughing, reminding me of Prabhupada:

Dawkins: I’m not interested in free will what I am interested in is the ridiculous suggestion that if science can’t say where the origin of matter comes from theology can. The origin of matter… the origin of the whole universe, is a very, very difficult question. It’s one that scientists are working on. It’s one that they hope eventually to solve. Just as before Darwin, biology was a mystery. Darwin solved that<--(Really, I don't think they're all agreed on that). Now cosmology is a mystery. The origin of the universe is a mystery; it’s a mystery to everyone. Physicists are working on it. They have theories. But if science can’t answer that question then as sure as hell theology can’t either.

I believe the word rascal is appropriate here. Hare Krishna

[gHari]

Harerama, perhaps the first paragraph on this link may contribute to our scientific understanding: http://vedabase.net/sb/2/2/30/en

[Ayodhya]

 

Hail and Namaste,

 

Does the answer have to be one way or the other? You attack this issue as if it has to be either matter or spirit when that particular posiition is faulty at best. From the Vedic viewpoint, all things are imbued with spirit, soul, or God. From the Monist viewpoint all things are one soul, spirit, or God. God is ultimate scientist. Do you actually think that all spiritual happenings must be mystical or unnatural? Does it not make more sense that God would craft us in a way so that having mystical experiences would be natural, or induced in some way that relies on natural properties? It would be like asking the cable guy to give us TV with a banana and twizzlers. If the mechanics if you will, could not allow for it in the first place, then the reality of mystical experience would not even exist to talk about. The "God Spot" in the brain developed for a reason. It developed so that we would be able to know the Truth. The existence of these chemical and bio-electric reactions are not disproofs of the spirit or of God, but rather an undeniable glimpse into the mastermind of the Primal Soul...the ultimate scientist...of whom without, we would not be.

 

I believe this post was sorely missed.

In a monistic sense, matter and the spirit are the same. Did not God give us Reason? If he did, than to say that we now have the ability to record these events is a testament to that idea.

 

Also, why should the brain be totally unconscious to percieve a mystical experience? Why is it necessary to go into a comatose for a trance or any other near-death state to achieve this?

[theist]

 

Hail and Namaste,

 

Does the answer have to be one way or the other? You attack this issue as if it has to be either matter or spirit when that particular posiition is faulty at best. From the Vedic viewpoint, all things are imbued with spirit, soul, or God. From the Monist viewpoint all things are one soul, spirit, or God. God is ultimate scientist. Do you actually think that all spiritual happenings must be mystical or unnatural? Does it not make more sense that God would craft us in a way so that having mystical experiences would be natural, or induced in some way that relies on natural properties? It would be like asking the cable guy to give us TV with a banana and twizzlers. If the mechanics if you will, could not allow for it in the first place, then the reality of mystical experience would not even exist to talk about. The "God Spot" in the brain developed for a reason. It developed so that we would be able to know the Truth. The existence of these chemical and bio-electric reactions are not disproofs of the spirit or of God, but rather an undeniable glimpse into the mastermind of the Primal Soul...the ultimate scientist...of whom without, we would not be.

 

I want to join Ayodhya's wish that Runa999's post receive proper consideration.

 

 

harerama-

 

Another article on the probability that all mystical experiences come from natural causes, and obviates the need for a soul.

 

Mystical experiences are indeed natural and come from God to the soul. The soul is natural. Why think of the soul as something less than natural? This shows a severe lack of knowledge on the part of the secular humanist.

[Ayodhya]

 

I want to join Ayodhya's wish that Runa999's post receive proper consideration.

 

 

 

Mystical experiences are indeed natural and come from God to the soul. The soul is natural. Why think of the soul as something less than natural? This shows a severe lack of knowledge on the part of the secular humanist.

 

Most people consider the soul to be something greater than nature, and thus expect it to do miraculous things when in fact the soul is just the soul, the animating force and the bond that ties us to God.

[theist]

Yes point taken. I changed the word less to other as it conveys more clearly what I meant to say.

[gHari]

Usually the word 'natural' relates to the physical world of nature, the pinball game of matter and energy that has hypnotized material scientists. Supernatural relates to the metaphysical, things that cannot be explained by the pinball physical laws.

 

Modes of nature: one could expect different physical biological conditions. Which causes which? Again science oversteps its domain when trying to guess at the why's of things. 'How' is science; 'why' is religion.

[theist]

 

Usually the word 'natural' relates to the physical natural world, the pinball game of matter and energy that has hypnotized material scientists. Supernatural relates to the metaphysical, things that cannot be explained by the pinball physical laws.

 

Modes of nature: one could expect different physical biological conditions. Which causes which? Again science oversteps its domain when trying to guess at the why's of things. 'How' is science; 'why' is religion.

 

Hypnotized into choosing the wrong starting point. Instead of starting with Krsna, the cause of all causes, they want to start with matter the effect and project out from there. Never will the truth be known working from this faulty premise.

[Sridas]

 

 

Just think i could be rounding up cows instead of pulling the wool over ma fellow jivas eyes.

[bija]

 

Originally Posted by Runa999

Hail and Namaste,

Does the answer have to be one way or the other? You attack this issue as if it has to be either matter or spirit when that particular posiition is faulty at best. From the Vedic viewpoint, all things are imbued with spirit, soul, or God. From the Monist viewpoint all things are one soul, spirit, or God. God is ultimate scientist. Do you actually think that all spiritual happenings must be mystical or unnatural? Does it not make more sense that God would craft us in a way so that having mystical experiences would be natural, or induced in some way that relies on natural properties? It would be like asking the cable guy to give us TV with a banana and twizzlers. If the mechanics if you will, could not allow for it in the first place, then the reality of mystical experience would not even exist to talk about. The "God Spot" in the brain developed for a reason. It developed so that we would be able to know the Truth. The existence of these chemical and bio-electric reactions are not disproofs of the spirit or of God, but rather an undeniable glimpse into the mastermind of the Primal Soul...the ultimate scientist...of whom without, we would not be.

 

Does the answer have to be one way or the other? I don't think so.

 

From the standpoint that God has diverse energies, in a sense then, all is a part of God. So from material vision there is material verses spiritual, but from higher vision everything is spiritual. All energy is spiritual.

 

The other night I was watching a science show about 'dark energy' and 'dark matter'. I found it interesting that scientists use the word 'dark', in reference for something they do not have tangible proof of yet. But in spiritual terminology 'gross matter' could be termed 'dark', and this finer matter (as yet untangible to scientists) could actually be termed 'light'.

 

Somewhere it is quoted in Vedic texts that, the spiritual sky consists of 75% of all that be. These scientists by theory had come to conclusion that 'dark energy' consists of 75% of all that be, 'dark matter' makes up the balance to 95%, and then evening out with another 5% (matter that we know of). Strange coincidence?

 

So, could we say that energy can be described in simple terms as fine, finer, and finest.

 

Personally I have no problem with meditations, visions, or mystical experiences showing up on a brain scan. I feel this does not debunk the spiritual reality, and class all these mystical experiences as purely matter. But actually the opposite...that everything is spiritual energy in a higher sense, and that everything is spiritually connected. Even the tiny brain, to the greater reality.

[Sridas]

The Servant of the Servant. It always come back to this

Service is the all important essence of real spiritual life, service, service, and more service, with no aspiration for position or power. Service without position.

Naham vipro na ca narapatir napi vaisyo na sudro

naham varni na ca grhapatir no vanastho yatir va

kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramananda-purnamrtabdher-

gopibhartuh pada-kamalayor-dasa-dasnudasah

A sannyasi, a jaminda, an erudite scholar, none of these worldly positions have any value there, but sacrifice is all in all. And that extreme is fully found in the example of the gopis.

At the rajasurya yagna, Krsna told the pandavas, “When this yagna is finished, this bell will ring of its own accord, then when the bell rings automatically all will be satisfied that the sacrifice was perfectly performed.” Then Bhima asked Krsna, “If the bell isn’t ringing then what does that mean?” Krsna told him, “Then one thing is still incomplete, and that is vaishnava seva has not been done as yet.” “Even though You Yourself are taking food here, then who is he, and where is he to be found, this vaisnava?” Then Krsna suggested, “He is in the outskirts of the town in a small cottage, and he is of the lower caste.” So they went out and found him and took him to the sacrifice.

Draupadi cooked for the sacrifice, as she was an expert cook, but when she saw this guest eating she couldn’t understand how the bell was still not ringing. One would think the bell would ring automatically.

 

Then Krsna again told, “If the bell won’t ring there must be some defect in your attempts, something is still wrong. There must be some offense committed against the vaishnava.”

They all wondered who has undermined him. Then Draupadi admitted, “It is I who has committed some offense, I was thinking I am a good cook I’ve prepared so many preparations perfectly and this man just mixed them all together, and I was fuming, thinking he comes from a lower family. He does not know how to appreciate this higher cooking. He cannot appreciate the higher culture. So all my attempts have been in vain, but so much attention I gave, I cooked so many curries

in many beautiful ways, but he has just jumbled them all together.”

 

Then Krsna told, “So this is the cause, now again you must go and fetch him, there is no other alternative, but to find him and satisfy him.” So they once more brought him to the assembly and all with folded hands were showing their reverential attitude of respect towards him awaiting for him to take his meal. At that time the bell began to ring automatically.

So a vaishnava does not identify with any charming position of this world.

Naham vipro na ca narapatir nanpi vaisyo na sudru.

Neither a brahman, a merchant, nor a sudra or sannyasi etc. but what is our positive position.

Gopibhartuh pada kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah

 

Our highest aspiration is to become a servant of the servant of that Gopinath, the Lord of the cowherd girls, the gopis worship, that is service to a particular standard and that is the highest of all surrender and dedication known to this world of experience. And my aspiration should always be concentrated in that direction, avoiding all other distractions and temptations for the different positions in life.

No position do I want, only the servant of the servant in this particular camp where dedication is so high and noble. I only want to be a particle of their feet dust, as Uddhava told, “Let me be a blade of grass so naturally their feet dust will come to my head.” That is our beck and call from the inner world of charm and beauty.

Then leaving aside all temptation offered to us from the different agents that will come automatically to divert, to examine, and to taste our validity, our chastity. So our aim should be focused one pointedly on that finest service of sacrificial love. As was told of Arjuna, when they finished training, Dronacharya put an artificial bird on the top of a tree, and then asked the different disciples, “please mark the eye of the bird,” then starting with Yuddhistir when each was asked, “What do you see?” “I see everything, the whole bird, tree, eye, everything.” But when Arjuna was asked, he replied, “I can only see the eye.” “Yes this is the correct attention, now shoot the arrow.” So our attention towards our goal will be of such standard, of that accuracy only. Centrally focused on the eye. All else outside is eliminated.

This is Mahaprabhu’s direction from His own mouth from Chaitanya Caritamrta 13.80. Padyavali 63.

 

Sudhir Goswami: The higher vaishnava can vibrate suddha-nama. When you quote Jagadananda Pandit saying, namaksara bahiraya bate nama kabhu naya. If only a pure devotee can praise the Name properly where is the value of chanting Krsna nama for a neophyte devotee.

 

Srila Sridara Maharaj:

Atah sri krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevon mukha hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuratyadah

We may take the Name for many ulterior purposes, there may well be dacoits -thieves who take the Name for their successful operation. Then there are those kamakandis who may take the Name for money, health, prestige etc. The Names of God may be exploited for various false goals but that will never be the Name proper. We cannot engage the supreme to serve our lower purpose. We will think we are using Him in our service, but He does not care to come to that level.

So the pure Name is there when the relationship is proper, He is the master and we are the servant. And that is permanent, not temporary. He is our permanent Lord. With this idea when we take the Holy Name we will come into connection with reality, otherwise we are in the fictitious world.

So the Name, Form and Pastimes, all concerning Krsna, are not within the purview of our senses. The physical tongue cannot pronounce Krsna properly, only the physical words we may produce on the physical tongue, but Krsna may not be there, He is only there in the spiritual connection. And this means wherever there is the serving attitude.

In the domain of renunciation or material enjoyment, Krsna will not come. Sevon mukha etc. The connection with the original will only be there in the mood of service otherwise it is imitation. The service attitude takes us into connection with the higher substance and He, when pleased by my attitude, will come down into this material realm and dance on the tongue of his loving servant. He comes to me through the soul, then the mind, then the physical plane of the tongue, then dances and sings activated by His inspiration, then it is Krsna Nama.

So sadhu is he who has no other aspiration but the seva of Krsna, Divine service. So it might all be imitation but no presence of Krsna in reality. This is the main thing in the presentation of the Gaudiya Mission’s teachings. The sahajiya conception is external, it isn’t real. To be real we must have this service connection then the pleasure of the higher substance will be ours. We cannot go up to Him but He

can descend to us. He is not within the jurisdiction of our subjective attitude. But He will take the initiative and satisfied by our serving attitude He will come to us.

The jiva soul is very fine compared with worldly matter, but compared to paramatma and Bhagavan we are very gross. But the gross cannot connect with the subtle. He voluntarily comes to contact us then we can have Him, otherwise by our ascending attempt we cannot go to Him, but we can feel He has come to capture us and we are an instrument, a player in His hands. I am a player by His sweet will. He can make me dance any way He likes, all initiative is flowing from the higher realm. So we must surrender and show submissiveness to draw His attention to our plight.

 

“Please come in my heart to my level and touch me, give me your sweet company.” Through the negative attraction, the positive decision will be taken by Him then there will be connection between the soul and the supersoul.

Aslisya va pada-ratam pinastu mam adarsanam mama-hatam karotu va

He may care for me or not care, ignore me totally, or embrace me it is His sweet will. All I can do is try to draw his attention towards me as a poor insignificant soul. Otherwise it will always be imitation. If I am thinking I have His connection all is hypocrisy. All may just be a hypocritical display to show the others, a false play for the lower section.

Anyone who has a real connection is feeling my cry is not sufficient to attract Him. I haveno qualification, that is their nature. It is peculiar but still that attitude has Krsna, that will be the sign. The real devotee may feel his chanting is offensive but still Krsna’s presence is there within Him.

Na prema-gandho sti darapi me harau

kandami saubhagya-bharam prakasitam

Whatever I am showing to the world, that is a mere show, otherwise if I had His connection by separation, I could not live at all None can live without Him, it is impossible to live without Him, so charming, so attractive. So in fact a devotee doesn’t say he is a devotee. By consultation of the scriptures and other devotees we have to find who has sincere attachment and devotion for the Lord.

 

When the first connection will come in the heart of a devotee, those symptoms will appear that I have nothing I am nowhere. The mind and intelligence and other tendances, are looting what is due to devotion. Devotion is not getting its proper nourishment, its proper food. That is the dilemma of the baddha-jiva.

Anyhow with the help of the scriptures and the living saints we have to improve our condition.Where there is mind and will there is a way. If we have a liking for that life, for that property within us.

 

Ruchi, taste, that is the first thing, and sincerely we want to have that taste. We must sincerely want that thing first, then there will be a way out, and we must get it through our innermost hankering. Our hunger is to be increased, disease means no hunger. By the help of healthy people we have to live in such a way that the hunger may be increased in me, and the food will all be adjusted. Proper food and diet will help the lost health. On the whole we have to move in that way, we feel within if our health

is being acquired or not. We should always remain vigilantly awake to our internal interest, monitoring our improvement or decay. The real nature is sacrifice, and dedication, learn to give yourself for the noble cause. Dedication is nobility, and that outer, so-called science, mukti karma-gnana etc will all try to misguide us. Slothfulness, idleness that is also a great enemy. Try to live in the energizing world. Idleness is slackness, not earnestness, trying to waylay our devotional activity. We should be careful about anti-bhakti, that we may not play with such company. Sometimes even in the higher stage practical activity may not nesacarily connect us. Not just any connection with the Absolute will get us out of this world. Kamsa and Sisupala are also connected with Krsna lila but they are still in the opposition party. That is not desirable company for the suddha bhakta. For they don’t wish to be arranged amongst the enemies of Krsna lila, that may also be connected in an indirect way with Krsna’s pastimes. This jealousy, we find Sisupala wanted to marry Rukmini, this is also connected in an unfavorable way, so we should aspire after a favorable serving connection.

[gHari]

... always a silver lining

[Bishadi]

Hello and good day to you,

 

Sorry but I may not be able view that article for some time but I can still offer a little conversation on these points.

 

The previous article I posted was about how electromagnetic waves can induce mystical experiences, like drugs can. If these two methods are able to induce mystical experiences, how can anyone say that mystical experiences are authentic?

 

Their article is a little short as to know any and every single atom or element that associates or shares a valance to become a molecule does so with electromagnetic radiation.

Metabolisms are firing off a whole bunch of little burst of emr constantly.

Now entangles masses are the observed ‘phenomena’ as some may still call it. An energy release can entangle neighborhood masses and one can affect the other yet the distance is not an issue.

That ‘spooky action at a distance’ Einstein was talking about.

 

While I am still trying to meditate and chant, any sort of peace I get now is destroyed simply because now I have the notion that I'm inducing this state, and that brain chemistry is involved, there is no spirit to ponder upon, no God to interact with, or contemplate upon. Any feeling of divinity, or a divine presence is merely a matter of brain chemistry, at least that's how I have come to look at it (not willingly) when I do get a calm relaxed feeling along with the feeling I am in the presence of God. This state is destroyed as soon as the notion pops into my head that it's not real.

Wow! I feel for you. Do you realize what theology has done to most on this globe? You should see the variant renditions of what God or that ‘thought’ of him or the ‘things’ that are supposed to be God are. I am so confused:>:>

God is all of it. Close your eyes and feel but quit looking. There is nothing to see and the only thing personal are the interaction you have with others.

Who you talking too?

 

I really want to believe in God, and that there's a soul,

Great! You have a love for it all and thankful, right? That is beautiful

 

 

And ‘the soul man’ is what you leave. Your existence is what you do based on this life right now. If you want to be alive in the flesh; make babies, if you want to be alive as a bird; feed them, as the rose; plant them.

If you want to perish be bad and selfish. Isolate yourself from being a quality reinforcement to this existence.

Having this set of ‘thoughts’ or memories carried over to some ultimate ‘heavenly’ location is quite selfish and please don’t get caught up into some ‘raising to the flesh’ thing.

Reincarnated, everyday! Do you shed skin cells? Are critters eating them? Otay your energy is moving on as simple as that is but the point is that is what we are; alive with choice here in this period. We are but a rock that knows it exists but as the rock is of this world we are of this universe and with this consciousness we are in fact able to know all of it at this time.

That may be tough to comprehend but let me tell you them monks on the hill are about as selfless as it gets, know exactly what I am talking about.

So in one sense reinforcing and participation is what gives and supports ‘life’ but to know God, any isolation of any interaction slows the awareness. To be capable of just being, removed of needs, wants or predeterminations; just be, take in what is, without too much thought. Recognize the interaction and learn from every one of them and life will begin to be an experience versus some search or chore. If the bowl is dirty; wash it!

 

Every mystical state that has been documented by scientists seems to have some correlation with brain activity, which can now be measured.

What’s wrong with reading brain waves during a reaction? If you closed your eyes and imagined a car crashing into you and believed it occurring (like a dream) would you react?

 

Doesn't the brain have to be completely silent in order for a mystical experience to be truly authentic? For the soul's existence to be validated?

removed of predeterminations or of needs? Yep!….. quite? Dead!

What would constitute an authentic mystical experience anyway?

Premonitions …..have to trust them … have to trust yourself and the input over the selfish thoughts. “I don’t need this ‘’ No, I am going that way…… The point is each analyze a scenario differently, the correct answer is usually quite natural but then another may be predetermined based on environment and ‘per se’ character and even logically.

And with such doubts re: the validity of these mystical experiences, how does pursuing a personal and direct experience of God constitute proof when there is a mountain of evidence to indicate that personal experience is easily a product of brain chemistry and thus most likely delusion?

The delusion is to think you have no effect and are a separate thing.

 

How can one convince himself that the experience he's having is real?

Quit thinking you are something. Be aware and alive and let ‘you’ live. Since consciousness became, compassion will do the best; you need to live the rest.