Radio stations: Philosophising about God

[suchandra]

Austria, the very land of origin of intellectual nihilism - all the radio stations see it as their daily ritual to broadcast some PhD's commentary about, that there cannot be possibly a personal God, but rather, what they said just recently,

 

"God is an ongoing event, something always changing, the energy of evolution. If God is perfect, then God can’t have any needs or wants; hence, God wouldn’t bother creating something. If God deliberately creates something, it must be because of some need or want — even if it is as simple as curiosity.

A common argument against the existence of God is that omnipotence is incompatible with being all-loving, given how much evil there is in the world. There is another problem with this depiction of God, though: how can there be real and genuine love if God is in complete control of everything? When a person attempts to totally control another, we don't usually accept that as love."

In sum they pretend to present modern up to date academic perfect reason and logic but do nothing else than to manipulate peoples brain to believe that there is no God.

So, I'm looking for a paper to post which uses only reason and logic but that proves with clear predominance that there must be a Supreme Personality of Godhead which is the origin of everything. Any suggestions if such an article already exists?

[Bishadi]

God is the total and all the emotions man has created are felt only in the flesh. Our consciousness is that window and where we can know the total (God) as we stand but never ever think God is some person on some thrown who is that Love you feel.

Love is by that ‘freedom of choice’ we have been blessed with and only in the flesh do we comprehend this.

We are ignorant when we think a single sect will offer the path to know. If this was so then the world would not be turning as it does with the foulness we see.

The true answers to knowing ‘life’ and why we exist WILL COME FROM THE COMBINING FRAMEWORK of the sciences and theology.

Our forefathers wrote of the truth but man has not understood and only by honoring all of the children of the total did a full framework become known.

So it is as what was written and the sciences will give the foundations to vindicate both our forefathers and the physical applicability to know GOD!

We are of that singularity. We are of choice to Love and know love. We are the eyes of God within this existence. We are of God, know him personally and quit trying to separate from him.

The truth is coming and although the author of the paper quoted does not represent a pure understanding, the fact is that the truth is here and it will complete the picture whereas the sciences and theology will be of one and the total of this species will know God as He truly is.

[theist]

suchanda,

 

Perhaps something from Intellegent Design folks like Micheal Behe would be appropriate.

 

They may need to grapple with that before they can tackle questions of why is there suffering in this world if there is a God. Of course Indian Vaisnavism completely explains this by the understanding of free will and the existence of the varigated worlds of Vaikuntha.

 

They may need a bridge to this however and ID could be that bridge.

[theist]

Behe's home page:

 

http://www.arn.org/authors/behe.html

[Guest guest]

The only thing is, there is a pretty strong argument AGAINST Intelligent Design. And that is: XXXX XXXX [insert name of your favorite unintelligent sociopath here].

[suchandra]

 

Behe's home page:

 

http://www.arn.org/authors/behe.html

 

Well thanks prabhu for pointing me to a bookstore to get the answer - indeed I actually couldnt have figure that out - to buy the philosophical literature!

Just one last question: this Michael J. Behe, is he a Vaishnava?

[Guruvani]

No matter how much you can show that there is intelligent design in the universe, the envious non-believers will not see.

 

Best thing is to just present the books of Srila Prabhupada and give the sincere souls of the world a chance to be attracted to Krishna.

 

Half-measures and watered down preaching never really accoplished anything except the gratification of egos and a false sense of relgiousity.

[Guest guest]

 

No matter how much you can show that there is intelligent design in the universe, the envious non-believers will not see.

 

Best thing is to just present the books of Srila Prabhupada and give the sincere souls of the world a chance to be attracted to Krishna.

 

Half-measures and watered down preaching never really accoplished anything except the gratification of egos and a false sense of relgiousity.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.

 

PURPORT

 

The Complete Whole, or the Supreme Absolute Truth, is the complete Personality of Godhead. Realization of impersonal Brahman or of Paramātmā, the Supersoul, is incomplete realization of the Absolute Complete. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1]. Realization of impersonal Brahman is realization of His sat feature, or His aspect of eternity, and Paramātmā realization is realization of His sat and cit features, His aspects of eternity and knowledge. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features — sat, cit and ānanda, bliss. When one realizes the Supreme Person, he realizes these aspects of the Absolute Truth in their completeness. Vigraha means "form." Thus the Complete Whole is not formless. If He were formless, or if He were less than His creation in any other way, He could not be complete. The Complete Whole must contain everything both within and beyond our experience; otherwise He cannot be complete.

 

The Complete Whole, the Personality of Godhead, has immense potencies, all of which are as complete as He is. Thus this phenomenal world is also complete in itself. The twenty-four elements of which this material universe is a temporary manifestation are arranged to produce everything necessary for the maintenance and subsistence of this universe. No other unit in the universe need make an extraneous effort to try to maintain the universe. The universe functions on its own time scale, which is fixed by the energy of the Complete Whole, and when that schedule is completed, this temporary manifestation will be annihilated by the complete arrangement of the Complete Whole.

[theist]

 

Well thanks prabhu for pointing me to a bookstore to get the answer - indeed I actually couldnt have figure that out - to buy the philosophical literature!

Just one last question: this Michael J. Behe, is he a Vaishnava?

 

He is a Christian directed theist whose aim is to spread awareness of God's existence and oppose atheism. How can that not be pleasing to the Lord?

 

Of course if you mean vaisnava as someone in dhoti and tilak with an Indian lifestyle that is not him.

 

I believe his arguments will be more acceptable to the dialouge with the people in question vs. the standard "this knowledge comes in disciplic succession from Lord Brahma therefore you should accept it" approach that some prefer.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted Krsna consciousness presented as science even more than a religon process as I understand it.

 

I hope you scrolled down to the bottom section of Behe's site. There are links to very many free articles so you needn't purchase a book. My impression is that that is what you were after. I hope you find something usefull there.

 

Hare Krsna

[Bishadi]

 

I believe his arguments will be more acceptable to the dialouge with the people in question vs. the standard "this knowledge comes in disciplic succession from Lord Brahma therefore you should accept it" approach that some prefer.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted Krsna consciousness presented as science even more than a religon process as I understand it.

 

Imagine that!

 

Believing with physical application versus just being told too!

 

Who would ever say that besides a real humble person?

 

Do the faithful?

[theist]

 

No matter how much you can show that there is intelligent design in the universe, the envious non-believers will not see.

 

Best thing is to just present the books of Srila Prabhupada and give the sincere souls of the world a chance to be attracted to Krishna.

 

Half-measures and watered down preaching never really accoplished anything except the gratification of egos and a false sense of relgiousity.

 

Negation thinking is mayavad. The wise never advise people tocease action but to work in the spirit of devotion. And that work springs from the inherited natures that people have acquired under the three modes of material nature. A sientist need not stop being a scientist but rather he should realize and present Krsna to others through that science. Karma yoga -action in Krsna consciousness.

 

The envious will never see Krsna as Krsna rather we are "believers" or not. Most of us here are proof of that. I am certainly in that category. Kamsa's arena is another example. Krsna is right before us now but do we see Him?

 

Do you think everyone that has been handed a book is now a devotee? How about spreading the knowledge contained in those books. It is the knowledge in the books that sets one free. To think that knowledge cannot be present from one scientist to another in their own language is a mistake. Why did Srila Prabhupada encourage Svarupa Damodhara Maharaja to preach as a scientist if this is not the case.

[Bishadi]

 

Negation thinking is mayavad. The wise never advise people tocease action but to work in the spirit of devotion. And that work springs from the inherited natures that people have acquired under the three modes of material nature. A sientist need not stop being a scientist but rather he should realize and present Krsna to others through that science. Karma yoga -action in Krsna consciousness.

Yep all reality is of the same.

 

 

The envious will never see Krsna as Krsna rather we are "believers" or not. Most of us here are proof of that. I am certainly in that category. Kamsa's arena is another example. Krsna is right before us now but do we see Him?

I dunno ... do you or is Krishna still some blue guy on a thrown 'controlling the universe,' to you?

 

 

Do you think everyone that has been handed a book is now a devotee? How about spreading the knowledge contained in those books. It is the knowledge in the books that sets one free. To think that knowledge cannot be present from one scientist to another in their own language is a mistake. Why did Srila Prabhupada encourage Svarupa Damodhara Maharaja to preach as a scientist if this is not the case.

 

Because he knew the truth was coming in the form of the sciences being properly described reavealing God in effect as once you know the sciences of how we exists, God is staring you right in the face.

 

AND the fact is only will the sciences break the barriers of the globes theologies that have created walls too high to climb.

[Guest guest]

 

No matter how much you can show that there is intelligent design in the universe, the envious non-believers will not see.

 

Best thing is to just present the books of Srila Prabhupada and give the sincere souls of the world a chance to be attracted to Krishna.

 

Half-measures and watered down preaching never really accoplished anything except the gratification of egos and a false sense of relgiousity.

 

Srila Prabhupada surely wanted that there's a scientific presentation of Vaishnava philosophy so that the present monster of "all-knowing modern science" could be annuled and people would give up their beloved awesome attitude towards science.

Of course did Prabhupada point out that it has to be presented by a Vaishnava in order to wake up the sleeping souls.

Btw, to philosophically or logically prove the existence of God was always a challenge for great thinkers throughout human history.

 

"Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 1274) argues that there is no case known in which a thing turned out to be the efficient cause of itself, because in that case it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. If, however, one thing was caused by another, there would be an infinite chain of cause and effect, which would be impossible. But if we take away the ultimate cause it is to take away the effect. If in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

 

Muslim philosophers argued: If the universe had a beginning at all, the beginning cannot rest on nothingness but God. If the universe had, instead, an infinite past and is without beginning and uncreated, then it is impossible to have arrived at the present moment, in the same way as it is impossible to jump out of a bottomless pit.

The key here is the concept of infinity. Surely, if we have to go back infinitely without arriving at a beginning, there could be a great problem with having arrived at the present moment. Without a definite starting point in time, this is simply impossible.

 

William Paley, an eighteenth-century Anglican priest and philosopher, concluded that all living creatures are far too complicated to have arisen by chance. For him the universe was clearly showing direction and an instrument for a goal. Therefore, the universe must be the product of an intelligent designer. He added an example of someone who finds a watch, but had no prior knowledge of what watches are. Even so he has never seen one, the man quite naturally concludes: The watch has been designed and is used for a purpose. He does not assume the watch came into existence by chance."

[theist]

 

Yep all reality is of the same.

 

Well yes in one sense reality is all the same in that it all is Krsna energy. But still there are varieties of experience of that reality. And this variety is not just in the material world the spiritual world in full of variety. We souls are endowed with the free will to experience the reality of Krsna in what ever way we choose to, either some type of direct pure spiritual love or we can experience Him indirectly in the material world while undergoing the process of birth and death old age and disease.

 

We need to make the intelligent choice between the two.

 

 

I dunno ... do you or is Krishna still some blue guy on a thrown 'controlling the universe,' to you?

 

One needn't be on a thrown to control his kingdom. Strictly speaking Krsna of Vrndavan does not directly concern Himself with controlling anything. There He has placed Himself under the control of His most intimate devotees. Other expansions of Krsna such as the Vishnu expansions deal with control issues. Those expansions are also Krsna but acting in different capacities. The details of these different expansions are beyond me to speak of but ultimately it comes down the fact that the Supreme Lord is a distinct Person from you or I.

 

 

 

 

Because he knew the truth was coming in the form of the sciences being properly described reavealing God in effect as once you know the sciences of how we exists, God is staring you right in the face.

 

AND the fact is only will the sciences break the barriers of the globes theologies that have created walls too high to climb.

 

I agree with that. Also the hard sciences like physics etc. are dominant today and those individuals need to be reached by others that speak their language. It is way beyond myself and most others to do so but some devotees are intelligent in those fields and should be encouraged and assisted as they preach in that way.

 

There was this famous atheist, I forgot his name, Fife or something,who was considered the world leader of the atheists and championed their cause against God consciousness. Well within the last year or two he came out declaring that he now believed in God. He had no idea of the nature of God except that this God was Supremely Intelligent and most likely was a personal becase when you admit to ID the next question has to be, whose intelligence. He became convinced of this from the argument of complexity put forward by Behe. That is everything is just too complex to have evolved by chance and natural selection.

 

So here we have the leader of the atheists, their priest so to speak, being converted to a theist quite apart from any standard religion just through the logic of modern science. And why not? God can reveal Himself through any angle he chooses from a flower petal to complext mathematical calculations.

[AncientMariner]

The Coast to Coast radio program talks about this kind of stuff quite frequently they have even had people talk about that brahmastra ancient mind nuclear weapon.

[theist]

There are two very different views that devotees hold. One is that Srila Prabhupada teaching and presentations are enough in themselves and no one need expand them and that expansion is somehow a watering down, and the other opposite view that Srila Prabhupada wanted to inspire others to use whatever talents and knowledge they possessed to their limit in the service of Krsna and in this there is really no end to the expansion of consciousness of Krsna.

 

The poet is encourage to write his poems and in them reveal Krsna. The leaders of society and policeman are encouraged to protect society in it moe towards Godhead. Children are encouraged to play Krsna games and the scientists are encouraged see Krsna through their specific endeavors.

 

The war is not devotees against science it is theistic science vs. atheistic science.

[Bishadi]

 

.......we choose to, either some type of direct pure spiritual love or we can experience Him indirectly in the material world while undergoing the process of birth and death old age and disease.

 

We need to make the intelligent choice between the two.

Wow! So I have a choice whether to get old or not?

 

Try it this way; either you live within the good of Love and caring to support life, or you are too selfish with individual needs and perish never planting a good seed; extinct!

 

Nice idea you mentioned but you missed what it meant.

[Bishadi]

 

There are two very different views that devotees hold. One is that Srila Prabhupada teaching and presentations are enough in themselves and no one need expand them and that expansion is somehow a watering down, and the other opposite view that Srila Prabhupada wanted to inspire others to use whatever talents and knowledge they possessed to their limit in the service of Krsna and in this there is really no end to the expansion of consciousness of Krsna.

 

The poet is encourage to write his poems and in them reveal Krsna. The leaders of society and policeman are encouraged to protect society in it moe towards Godhead. Children are encouraged to play Krsna games and the scientists are encouraged see Krsna through their specific endeavors.

 

The war is not devotees against science it is theistic science vs. atheistic science.

 

Then why are we debating. I was never a theistic or non believer, ever. The problem is I keep getting pigeon holed because I cannot believe as you do but there is not one item said that is incorrect!

 

Theologies are such the creators of bigots!

[Guest guest]

 

Wow! So I have a choice whether to get old or not?

 

Try it this way; either you live within the good of Love and caring to support life, or you are too selfish with individual needs and perish never planting a good seed; extinct!

 

Nice idea you mentioned but you missed what it meant.

 

I'll address your first line, the rest of your post is too out of context.

 

Yes YOU have a choice of experiencing yourself as pure spiritual being or you can falsely identify with the material body as experience that body as it goes through the aging process.

 

The you I am address is spiritsoul. If you think you are a material body then you will conclude there is no way to stop old age. The soul is ageless. It is a question of where you place you identification.

[theist]

That was theist above.

[theist]

 

Then why are we debating. I was never a theistic or non believer, ever. The problem is I keep getting pigeon holed because I cannot believe as you do but there is not one item said that is incorrect!

 

Theologies are such the creators of bigots!

 

Debating??? I haven't the slightest idea who you are let alone that we were debating. You are a fighter without an opponent. A shadow boxer who thought his shadow was someone else.

[suchandra]

Hridayananda Goswami wrote yesterday a perfect answer to this topic.

 

posted Fri 17 Nov 2006 09:10 PM CST |

The Logic of the Absolute

 

Given proof of God, would a materialist know how to read it?

 

by Hridayananda Dasa Goswami

<!--start section-->People often ask us, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Proof indicates a conclusive demonstration that establishes the validity of an assertion, in this case the assertion that God exists.

But as soon as we speak of a demonstration, the next question is “To whom shall we demonstrate?” If we speak of evidence or data, we must know who will see and hear it. In other words, who will judge the results of a particular experiment, test, or trial.

Consider a hypothetical example. Doctor Waterport, the famous scientist, has just discovered a sophisticated formula that solves a technical mathematical problem. He proudly calls his colleagues together and presents them with thirty pages of ultratechnical symbols. His fellow scientists pore over the pages and conclude, “Yes, this is the answer we’re looking for.” If Dr. Waterport were to show the proof to an ordinary person on the street, the person wouldn’t even know how to hold the pages right side up. Because he’s not trained in mathematics, the proof would be meaningless to him. Conclusion: Proof demands a qualified audience.

Certainly, any valid proof must be logical. But how we apply logic depends on our previous experience. For example, suppose an apple tree is growing outside your window. One morning you hear a sound like that of an apple hitting the ground, and when you look outside you see a ripe apple lying beneath the tree. Logically, you conclude, the apple has just fallen from the tree.

Your logical statement rests on your previous observation that the apple tree produces apples, that the apples fall to the ground, and that they make a certain sound when this occurs. And your statement appears logical to those with similar experience.

So we apply logic in terms of our experience. Therefore, how can we expect to make God logical to a person who has had no spiritual experience? How can God appear logical to a person to whom the very terminology of the science of God is unintelligible? Thus it is ludicrous when those who are spiritually blind, deaf, and dumb -demand that God be made “logical” to them and that His existence be “proved.”

In general, it is illogical for a person untrained in some field of knowledge to demand that a particular fact pertaining to that field of knowledge be logically demonstrated to him. For example, if someone who has no idea what a number is demands that I logically demonstrate that two plus two equals four, I can’t do it. Similarly, if a spiritual ignoramus demands that God be logically demonstrated to him, his very request is illogical. So how can the illogical demands of atheists be met?

We can easily provide innumerable proofs of God—provided we are free to stipulate that the judge of the data be a person who is spiritually trained. Devotees of the Lord who are advanced in Krishna consciousness can logically, evidentially, and demonstratively deal with the reality of the soul and God. But materialistic fools demand that God, a nonmaterial being, be reduced to a material formula.

It is patently absurd to demand material proof for a nonmaterial entity. Mathematical or physical laws describe predictable ways in which material things interact. God and the soul are not material and thus cannot be reduced to material descriptions.

This does not mean, however, that the soul is outside the jurisdiction of logical discussion. Consciousness itself is spiritual, not material, and thus the study of consciousness, or spirit, is not beyond the scope of human beings.

In fact, all fields of knowledge depend on tangible perception of the soul, since all sciences depend on a conscious scientist who works with consciousness, which is spiritual, not material. In other words, spiritual awareness is intrinsic to all types of awareness, although materialistic people do not recognize that consciousness is spiritual.

So there is no lack of data to prove the existence of spirit, since consciousness itself is spiritual. The problem is that foolish intellectuals whimsically designate consciousness a material, not a spiritual, entity. But as soon as we accept the simple truth that consciousness itself is spiritual, we find that in every stage of awareness and in every field of knowledge our perception of all manner of data is resting on a spiritual experience—the experience of being conscious. And when consciousness studies itself, it reaches the stage called spiritual consciousness, or self- realization. Ultimately, when the self-realized person fixes his consciousness on the source of all consciousness, he reaches the realization of Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

For one who has not perceived the superior pleasure of Krishna consciousness, it will seem illogical to restrict his material enjoyment. A Krishna conscious person, however, perceives that spiritual consciousness is far more pleasurable and satisfying than material consciousness. He further perceives that sinful activities—activities against the laws of God—harm that consciousness. Thus it is entirely logical for a Krishna conscious person to obey the laws of God, just as it is logical for an ordinary citizen to obey the laws of the state.

Ultimately, we must come to the stage of absolute logic, which refers to absolute perception, a perception of things with eternally recognizable properties and eternally established relationships. For example, God is the supreme master and enjoyer and we are His eternal servants. Thus it is absolutely logical for us to serve Him, for we are then situated in our natural, constitutional position. To serve a mundane employer may be logical, but it is not absolutely logical, since after the employer’s death, or upon his bankruptcy, serving him is illogical.

In conclusion, logic is a secondary process that follows the primary process of consciousness. We are conscious, for example, that numbers have particular values and properties, and based on this perception, we can state that a particular mathematical equation is either logical or illogical. Similarly, by purifying our existence through the practice of Krishna consciousness, we can perceive the values and properties of God, and thus we can discern that a particular statement about God is either logical or illogical. By confirming our analysis with the Vedic literatures, which are standard reference works of spiritual science compiled by realized devotees, we can perfectly understand the science of God in Krishna consciousness.

[Yogesh from za]

The post by Suchandra makes a lot of sense.

 

As Sirla Prabhupada states in one of his purport to Bhagavad Gita:-

"Book Knowladge without realization of the Supreme Truth is useless."

Just to back it up, the following is a verse from Padma Purana:

 

atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grah yam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadu svayam eva sphuraty adah.

Translation:

No one can understand the transcendental nature of the name, form, quality and pastimes of Sri Krsna through his materially contaminated senses. Only when one becomes spiritually saturated by transcendental service to the Lord are the transcendental name, form, quality and pastimes of the Lord revealed to him.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

[Bishadi]

 

Given proof of God, would a materialist know how to read it?

 

by Hridayananda Dasa Goswami

 

“Can you prove the existence of God?” Proof indicates a conclusive demonstration that establishes the validity of an assertion, in this case the assertion that God exists.

 

For example, suppose an apple tree is growing outside your window. One morning you hear a sound like that of an apple hitting the ground, and when you look outside you see a ripe apple lying beneath the tree. Logically, you conclude, the apple has just fallen from the tree.

Your logical statement rests on your previous observation that the apple tree produces apples, that the apples fall to the ground, and that they make a certain sound when this occurs. And your statement appears logical to those with similar experience.

 

 

So we apply logic in terms of our experience.

 

Therefore, how can we expect to make God logical to a person who has had no spiritual experience?

This has to be the biggest article of crock any could use as proof of God I have ever seen.

 

The apple tree is tangible and the fruit can be held.

 

God is of everything and yet some sects suggests he is a thing or separate entity other then within our fiber or within the 'everything' of our existance.

 

 

 

As Sirla Prabhupada states in one of his purport to Bhagavad Gita:-

"Book Knowladge without realization of the Supreme Truth is useless."

This is what reality is......

 

Goofs can read about all the "blue" Gods they want and even chant up the perfect tone but ladies and gentlemen, before you will ever know God, you must give up the selfish pursuits to be accepted.

 

Believing does not mean repeating a script or line of faith, it means becoming a part of the truth; life.

 

There is no separation.

[Bishadi]

 

Debating??? I haven't the slightest idea who you are let alone that we were debating. You are a fighter without an opponent. A shadow boxer who thought his shadow was someone else.

Wow! And people wonder why it is taking so long for to coming out party.

 

Who could not understand this?

 

Try it this way; either you live within the good of Love and caring to support life, or you are too selfish with individual needs and perish never planting a good seed; extinct!