Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

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Posted by Yaduraja on Nov 09, 2006:

 

Dear Ramakanta prabhu,

PAMHO, AGTSP,

You ask:

 

> If Srila Prabhupada does not have to be present (incarnated) on the same

> planet as his disciple to deliver his disciple, as you claim, then why did

> he write that he has to come back from Goloka Vrindaban to deliver those

> disciples who are not delivered along with him?

>

> If you don't know why he wrote that, then just tell me.

 

But you appear to agree that Srila Prabhupada does not have to be physically

present on the same planet as his disciples to deliver them since you wrote:

 

(not necessarily during the whole lifetime of his disciples)(Ramakanta das)

 

Since we both agree what is your problem? If he can deliver those disciples

who 'outlive' him, then obviously he does not have to be physically present

to deliver disciples. Can't you understand this exceedingly simple point?

 

Srila Prabhupada states that:

 

“ithe Spiritual Master remains in the material universe until all of His

disciples are transferred to the Spiritual Sky”

 

Since this 'material universe' is vast, with millions of planets, obviously

it is more than possible for him to remain within it and at the same time

not be physically present for all his disciples.

 

Even when Srila Prabhupada was on this planet he did not physically meet

many of his disciples, so obviously this ‘delivering’ does not absolutely

require that the disciple has to experience the physical presence of the

guru.

 

Srila Prabhupada stated over and over again that his physical presence is

not necessary so you must have completely misunderstood everything, as

usual:

 

"Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places.

Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple

wants. A Spiritual Master is the principle, not the body. Just like a

television can be seen in thousands of places by the principle of relay

monitoring. SPL 28th May 68

 

My Dear Sudama,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter

dated January 4th, 1970. I noted the contents with great interest. Actually,

I was thinking of you from London and by the grace of Krishna my anxiety was

televisioned to you in your dream. 8th Jan 70

 

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound

received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will

make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my

absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be

source of inspiration for you.

(Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of

me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not

together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only

with this spiritual connection. (Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69 )

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That

is real association.

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18 )

 

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational

conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception

is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from Krsna or the Spirirual Master,

we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no

longer feel that separation. Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual

Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is

real association.

(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57 )

 

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the

last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always

present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association -

by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence.

Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani

continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the

Vani, not the physical presence.

(CC, Antya 5 Conclusion )

 

Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

(Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75 )

 

I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically

present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77 )

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons

engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic

problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to

associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by

understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

(SB 3:31:48 )

 

I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent.

(Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67 )

 

 

Paramananda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila

Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always

meditating on your instructions.

Srila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is

not important.

(Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do

you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping

my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always

thinking of me . That is real association. Just like I am always thinking of

my Guru Maharaja at every moment, although he is not physically present, and

because I am trying to serve him to my best capacity, I am sure he is

helping me by his spiritual blessings. So there are two kinds of

association: physical and preceptorial. Physical association is not so

important as preceptorial association.

(Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69 )

 

As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical

presence. If you are chanting Hare Krsna there, and following my

instructions, reading the books, taking only Krsna prasadam etc., then there

is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose

mission I am humbly trying to push on.

(Letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74 )

 

'Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual

Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So

continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual

progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you,

still you will be able to execute all spiritual duties in the matter of

Krsna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles.

(Letter to Subala, 29/9/67 )

 

So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted

as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from

the Spiritual Master, that is living.

(General lectures, 69/01/13 )

 

Devotee: ...so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los

Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks 'How will the

Spiritual Master be pleased?'

Srila Prabhupada: Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you

by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I

am associating with him by his words.

(SB Lectures, 71/08/18 )

 

Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To

serve master's word is more important than to serve physically.

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77 )

 

So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another phrase,

which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that does not mean,

Krsna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean, prakata or aprakata,

physically present or not present, it does not matter.

(Lectures SB 73/12/11 )

 

So, spiritually, there is no question of separation, even physically we may

be in far distant place.

(Letter to Syama Dasi, 30/08/68 )

 

I went to your country for spreading this information of Krsna Consciousness

and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present

there but spiritually I am always with you.

(Letter to Nandarani, Krsna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67 )

 

We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is

physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all

the same.

(Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70 )

 

So in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the

Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may

appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his

instruction, I never feel separated from him.

(Letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70 )

 

I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in

his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master's

word is more important than to serve him physically.

(Letter to Syamasundara, 19/7/70 )

 

Follow the instruction, not the body.

 

So far as personal association with Guru is concerned, I was only with Guru

Maharaj 4 or 5 times, but I have never left his association, not even for a

moment. Because I am following his instruction, I have never felt any

separation. There are some of my Godbrothers here in India, who had constant

personal association with Guru Maharaja, but who are neglecting his orders.

This is just like the bug who is sitting on the lap of the king. He may be

very puffed up by his position but all he can succeed in doing is biting the

king. Personal association is not so important as association through

serving.

(Letter to Satyadhana, 20/2/72)

 

So spiritually appearance and disappearance, there is no difference ...

spiritually there is no such difference, appearance or disappearance.

Although this is the disappearance day of Om Visnupada Sri Srimad

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, there is nothing to be lamented, although

we feel separation.

(Lecture, Los Angeles 13/12/73)

 

So my Guru Maharaja will be very, very much pleased with you ... it is not

that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding ... he is

seeing. I never feel that I am alone.

(Lecture, 2/3/75)

 

Vani is more important than vapuh.

(Letter to Tusta Krishna Das, 14/12/72)

 

Yes I am glad that your centre is doing so well and all the devotees are now

appreciating the presence of their spiritual master by following his

instructions, although he is no longer present. This is the right spirit.

(Letter to Karandhara, 13/9/70)

 

The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the

suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can

extinguish the fire of material existence.

(SB(1987 Ed) 1.7.22)

 

There are two words, vani and vapuh. Vani means words, and vapuh means the

physical body. Vapuh will be finished. This material body it will be

finished, that is the nature. But if we keep to the vani, to the words of

the spiritual master, then we remain very fixed up...if you always keep

intact, in link with the words and instructions of the higher instructions,

then you are always fresh. This is spiritual understanding.

(General lectures, 75/03/02)

 

So we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krsna or

Spiritual Master. Never think that I am absent from you, presence by message

(or hearing) is the real touch.

(Letter to students, August 1967)

 

Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material condition.

(SB (1987)Ed) 7.7.1.)

 

The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the vibrator

is apparently absent.

(SB 2.9.8.)

 

The disciple and Spiritual Master are never separated because the Spiritual

Master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple

follows strictly the instructions of the Spiritual Master. This is called

the association of Vani. Physical presence is called Vapuh. As long as the

Spiritual Master is physically present, the disciple should serve the

physical body of the Spiritual Master, and when the Spiritual Master is no

longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of

the Spiritual Master.

(SB 4:28:47)

 

If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee

should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference

between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.

In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the

disciple."

(CC(1975 Ed) Adi 1.35)

 

Yet according to one of the Ramakanta's, 'physical presence' is absolutely

essential. Clearly you have misinterpreted the quotes you gave. Best wishes

Ys

Yadu