Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

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Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

Since you are evading my question, you seem not to know the answer.

 

 

> > Then why did Srila Prabhupada write that he has to come back from Goloka

> > Vrindaban to deliver those disciples who are not delivered along with

> > him?

>

> Why on earth are you asking this question when:

 

Because you wrote, "obviously he does not have to be physically present to

deliver disciples". And because I want to find out whether or not you were

just bluffing when you proudly announced that you will explain the quotes

from Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

> 1) you accept he can deliver disciples who 'outlive' him, ...

 

Srila Prabhupada delivers disciples by initiating them.

 

"The spiritual master initiates the disciple to deliver him, and if the

disciple executes the order of the spiritual master and does not offend

other Vaisnavas, his path is clear." (CC Madhya 1.218, purport)

 

When Srila Prabhupada was present, he initiated many disciples (to deliver

them) who 'outlived' him. But if a disciple stops executing his order or

starts offending other Vaisnavas, then Srila Prabhupada has to come back

from Goloka Vrindaban to deliver that disciple (initiate him) in his next

birth also.

 

Devotee: "If we do not finish our Krsna consciousness in this lifetime and

we have to take birth in material world, can we worship the same spiritual

master as our previous birth?"

Prabhupada: "Who is fallen is called yoga-bhrasta. So yoga-bhrasta means he

has fallen from the instruction of the spiritual master. But a spiritual

master sometimes is so kind that he delivers him in the next birth also. But

it is not our duty to bring the spiritual master to save me again in the

next life. It is not very good disciple."

(Bg. 7.4, lecture, Oct 31, 1975)

 

 

> 2) when you know he taught over and over again that the physical presence

> of the guru is not important.

 

You have not presented a single statement by Srila Prabhupada saying that

for diksa (not siksa) the physical presence of the guru is not important.

 

 

> Obviously it is therefore perfectly possible for a spiritual master who

> has come from Goloka Vrindavan to remain in this universe, but at the same

> time not necessarily be physically present for all his disciples who are

> still on earth.

 

Well, why does Srila Prabhupada have to come back from Goloka Vrindaban and

visit one of the planets in this universe to deliver those disciples who are

not delivered along with him? Do you think that his unsuccessful disciples

do not take birth on the planet he is visiting?

 

 

> Even when Srila Prabhupada was on this planet he did not physically meet

> many of his disciples, so obviously ‘delivering’ them does not absolutely

> require that the disciple has to experience the physical presence of the

> guru.

 

This is a conclusion by an imperfect brain drawn from observations through

imperfect senses. And it is fuzzy because you did not write what you mean by

"physically meet" and "physical presence".

 

 

> Please read all those quotes again if you still think that the physical

> presence of the guru is essential for the disciple.

 

They all deal with siksa. But we are talking about diksa.

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa