injuries and Ashtanga

November 7, 2006

Hello all,

I am a relatively recent addition to this email group. I too have been reading and watching

these conversations, but this is my first post.

A quick note about myself. I have been practicing yoga for over 10 years. I have received

instruction in Viniyoga, Iyengar and Ashtanga. I have been teaching for 6 years. In

addition to teaching yoga, for my profession I am a Shiatsu practitioner (Oriental

medicine/Japanese bodywork) and also practice deep tissue/myofacial massage.. My life's

calling revolves around the healing of the whole self through the doorway of the body.

My experience of Ashtanga Yoga taught in the states is presented in many different ways.

Not all of them taking into consideration all eight limbs. Many times emphasis is placed

on the asanas, without the student having enough awareness of self to avoid injury.

As a teacher myself I know that is easy to get focused just on what you are teaching

(asana/pranayama) and forget how your background and experience of the other limbs

shapes and supports that practice and understanding.

Yama - abstentions

Niyama - observances

Asana - Postures of the body

Pranayama - Control of prana or vital breath

Pratyahara - Abstraction; "is that by which the senses do not come into contact with their

objects and, as it were, follow the nature of the mind." - Vyasa

Dharana - Fixing the attention on a single object; concentration

Dhyana - Meditation

Samadhi - Super-conscious state

Another thing I observe is that when I am teacing students a yinyasa flow, by its nature the

emphasis is on the breath and tempo - leaving no room for instruction of poses or

correction of allignment. I just spent 5 days in Miami Beach, Florida last week at the Art of

Vinyasa Conference and there was much discussion about this, and how to include

instruction in a vinyasa yoga class. One way these two teaching styles can be bridged is to

offer the instruction and attention to alignment first, and then use the vinyasa sequence as

application of the increased understanding.

OK here I come around to my point - without instruction and deeper body awareness the

asana sequence could continue to reinforce bad habits and compensations to the point of

imbalance and injury. "Practice, Practice, Practice" only works if you have good form. To

make sure you have good form, you should be working with an instructor that has deep

understanding of the anatomy of asana, and be able to apply it to your individual body.

That being said. As for sciatica, it comes from one of two sources - compression of the

lumbar spine, or as someone else already mentioned, the tightening of the piriformis

muscle in the lateral hip rotators (outer hip). The Sun salute A, sun salute B, and primary

series do not actively address the lateral hips in a way that will relieve sciatica. In fact

many ofthe poses with external rotation of the hip will aggrivate it. Only a few poses of

the intermediate series actively address tightness in the lateral rotators. So our Ashtanga

practice may need to be supplemented or modified to address our individual needs.

As for strain on the shoulders and rotator cuff attachments - In any and every pose when

our hands touch the floor, most people naturally allow their weight to shift to the outside

edge of the hand. This is the weakest, most vulnerable part of the hand/wrist leading to

strain on the deltoid and rotator cuff. The strongest part of the hand is the base of the

index finger and the mound of muscle at the base of the thumb. If you shift your weight

to the inner edge of the palm you will align your bones in a way that is easier for your

shoulder and strengthens your bicep (so your deltoid isn't doing all of the work)

Of course without seeing your practice, I don't know for sure where the imbalance or

injury is coming from. However you can also become more familiar with your body and it's

compensations with regular bodywork. Effective therapeutic bodywork when done in

conjunction with a yoga practice can be used not only for diagnosis, but also treatment of

long standing physical issues.

Namaste,

Patricia

November 7, 2006

Patricia,

Excellent explanation of the problems and injuries and how to

correct/improve them through proper posture and appropriate asanas. Thank

you so much for the the expert input on it. I would just like to know which

postures from the advanced series would improve sciatica conditions and do

you think that people should do them before the practice or during or after?

And I agree, ashtanga yoga is not just asanas and Practice, Practice,

Practice, but as the name already tells us, composed of 8 parts, and we

should know and implement all of them either through the practice or/and in

a daily life.

Greetings from sunny Beijing

Diana

http://www.suryasakti.org/china

Patricia <pmsheerin >

ashtanga yoga

Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:48:33 -0000

ashtanga yoga

ashtanga yoga injuries and Ashtanga

Hello all,

I am a relatively recent addition to this email group. I too have been

reading and watching

these conversations, but this is my first post.

A quick note about myself. I have been practicing yoga for over 10 years.

I have received

instruction in Viniyoga, Iyengar and Ashtanga. I have been teaching for 6

years. In

addition to teaching yoga, for my profession I am a Shiatsu practitioner

(Oriental

medicine/Japanese bodywork) and also practice deep tissue/myofacial massage.

My life's

calling revolves around the healing of the whole self through the doorway of

the body.

My experience of Ashtanga Yoga taught in the states is presented in many

different ways.

Not all of them taking into consideration all eight limbs. Many times

emphasis is placed

on the asanas, without the student having enough awareness of self to avoid

injury.

As a teacher myself I know that is easy to get focused just on what you are

teaching

(asana/pranayama) and forget how your background and experience of the other

limbs

shapes and supports that practice and understanding.

Yama - abstentions

Niyama - observances

Asana - Postures of the body

Pranayama - Control of prana or vital breath

Pratyahara - Abstraction; "is that by which the senses do not come into

contact with their

objects and, as it were, follow the nature of the mind." - Vyasa

Dharana - Fixing the attention on a single object; concentration

Dhyana - Meditation

Samadhi - Super-conscious state

Another thing I observe is that when I am teacing students a yinyasa flow,

by its nature the

emphasis is on the breath and tempo - leaving no room for instruction of

poses or

correction of allignment. I just spent 5 days in Miami Beach, Florida last

week at the Art of

Vinyasa Conference and there was much discussion about this, and how to

include

instruction in a vinyasa yoga class. One way these two teaching styles can

be bridged is to

offer the instruction and attention to alignment first, and then use the

vinyasa sequence as

application of the increased understanding.

OK here I come around to my point - without instruction and deeper body

awareness the

asana sequence could continue to reinforce bad habits and compensations to

the point of

imbalance and injury. "Practice, Practice, Practice" only works if you have

good form. To

make sure you have good form, you should be working with an instructor that

has deep

understanding of the anatomy of asana, and be able to apply it to your

individual body.

That being said. As for sciatica, it comes from one of two sources -

compression of the

lumbar spine, or as someone else already mentioned, the tightening of the

piriformis

muscle in the lateral hip rotators (outer hip). The Sun salute A, sun

salute B, and primary

series do not actively address the lateral hips in a way that will relieve

sciatica. In fact

many ofthe poses with external rotation of the hip will aggrivate it. Only

a few poses of

the intermediate series actively address tightness in the lateral rotators.

So our Ashtanga

practice may need to be supplemented or modified to address our individual

needs.

As for strain on the shoulders and rotator cuff attachments - In any and

every pose when

our hands touch the floor, most people naturally allow their weight to shift

to the outside

edge of the hand. This is the weakest, most vulnerable part of the

hand/wrist leading to

strain on the deltoid and rotator cuff. The strongest part of the hand is

the base of the

index finger and the mound of muscle at the base of the thumb. If you shift

your weight

to the inner edge of the palm you will align your bones in a way that is

easier for your

shoulder and strengthens your bicep (so your deltoid isn't doing all of the

work)

Of course without seeing your practice, I don't know for sure where the

imbalance or

injury is coming from. However you can also become more familiar with your

body and it's

compensations with regular bodywork. Effective therapeutic bodywork when

done in

conjunction with a yoga practice can be used not only for diagnosis, but

also treatment of

long standing physical issues.

Namaste,

Patricia

November 8, 2006

Thanks for the class Patricia. Deep explanation of the eight limbs,

you must have read a lot.

But really, you are not an ashtanga practitioner, at least not a

traditional one. Still, you are giving instructions on an ashtanga

board? Uhmm....Let me explain something to you. To know ashtanga one

must practice ashtanga, not a little ashtanga, a little vinyasa flow

and a little other stuff. Plus you must study with traditional

teachers and follow the traditional ashtanga (indian) method for

some years. Which you obviously do not, since you explain clearly

you teach other stuff and also your explanations may very well be in

line with iyengar or viniyoga approach but do not fit in ashtanga.

All that "talking instruction" you mention are not encouraged in our

practice. That is why we do mysore style practice you know, silent,

deep and personal. We do not encourage iyengar alignment either. If

some ashtangis choose to do it because it fits their bodies that is

up to them. But it is not what is taught at AYRI. So please I beg

you to stop confusing people here searching for ashtanga practice

advice with ideas from other methods.

A.

November 8, 2006

Very Nicely put Patricia. I have been practicing Yoga for 8 years

and teaching for 4 years. I am glad to see another address that

Ashantga Yoga in the west does not always reflect all 8 limbs and

I've always found that interesting being that Ashtanga, literally

means 8 limbs.

Thank You,

Lotus

November 8, 2006

hello!

I teach yoga (Ashtanga ,Iyengar and Yoga Nidra) in Argentina ,and agree with you in everything what you say about yoga classes,when I was reading what you wrote I felt it was like listening to myself!!

I think that yoga teachers must always consider all aspects of yoga practice,not only asanas,and must be sensible enough to make the necesary changes in the way of teaching according to the personal needs of the pupil,in order to avoid injuries and strains in the body.

HARI OM

TAT SAT

Lucia Otero

International Yoga Teacher

November 9, 2006

Hi Patricia,

Thanks a lot for your e-mail. Nicely writen.

Namaste

Anis

November 14, 2006

>From Andiniji:

>...but it is not what is taught at AYRI. So please I beg

>you to stop confusing people here searching for ashtanga practice

>advice with ideas from other methods.

Dear Andiniji,

so why is it called ashtanga then?? If we don¹t practice all eight limbs but

just asana, it should be called Œone limb¹ yoga... (I think you¹re confusing

this aspect of her comment with Œother¹ styles of yoga)

does knowledge of anatomy (not to be confused with Iyengar yoga, like you

did) contradicts working on our bodies??? Why would that knowledge hurt??

Throughout my many years of ashtanga yoga practice, I have found that only

teachers who are not knowledgeable enough, go with the method of ³practice,

practice, practice² They are usually either too lazy or too ignorant to

learn more about what they are doing... I do understand the Œzen¹ approach

to it, but don¹t scold others who want to learn more... If you get a

physician to do ashtanga he will see it completely different than a

psychiatrist, philosopher or an artist... We all see it through the eyes of

what we do or what our interest is. And knowing anatomy of the human body is

BASICS for anyone who is laying hands on a yoga practitioner.

What I¹m trying to point out is that we are all free to see it through our

own eyes, so your comment is just as right for some people as Patricia¹s is

for others. And it all still Ashtanga yoga!!

Peace!

diana

November 14, 2006

andiniji

Wow...what an amazingly inappropriate and revealing message. I'm sure you didn't mean

to tell us quite so much about yourself. Anyone with a modicum of maturity and life

experience will be able to tell a great deal about this person from this one email. It seems

that "A" has some major issues around exclusivity and knowledge. Which strikes me as

odd, since he or she doesn't even seem to understand - or at least practice - the

fundamentals of ANY yogic philosophy.

Bad form - in ANY practice. Patricia - and everyone who had to read this - deserves an

apology.

namaste,

Kenn

ashtanga yoga, andiniji <no_reply wrote:

>

> Thanks for the class Patricia. Deep explanation of the eight limbs,

> you must have read a lot.

>

> But really, you are not an ashtanga practitioner, at least not a

> traditional one. Still, you are giving instructions on an ashtanga

> board? Uhmm....Let me explain something to you. To know ashtanga one

> must practice ashtanga, not a little ashtanga, a little vinyasa flow

> and a little other stuff. Plus you must study with traditional

> teachers and follow the traditional ashtanga (indian) method for

> some years. Which you obviously do not, since you explain clearly

> you teach other stuff and also your explanations may very well be in

> line with iyengar or viniyoga approach but do not fit in ashtanga.

> All that "talking instruction" you mention are not encouraged in our

> practice. That is why we do mysore style practice you know, silent,

> deep and personal. We do not encourage iyengar alignment either. If

> some ashtangis choose to do it because it fits their bodies that is

> up to them. But it is not what is taught at AYRI. So please I beg

> you to stop confusing people here searching for ashtanga practice

> advice with ideas from other methods.

>

> A.

>

November 16, 2006

Yes, I agree. I was going to send a comment but after typing decided

perhaps it was better to just leave it alone. Then again, for

Patricia....want to say that not all of us "ashtangis" think so narrow

mindedly and we don't mind hearing comments from yogis from other styles of

hatha yoga. Thanks! We can chose to read the emails or not without

dismissing another persons comments or suggestions.

Namaste,

Linda

Linda Munro

Ashtanga Paris

www.ashtangayogaparis.fr

"kenndeigh" <enki (AT) one (DOT) net>

ashtanga yoga

ashtanga yoga Re: injuries and Ashtanga

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:25:52 -0000

andiniji

Wow...what an amazingly inappropriate and revealing message. I'm sure you

didn't mean

to tell us quite so much about yourself. Anyone with a modicum of maturity

and life

experience will be able to tell a great deal about this person from this one

email. It seems

that "A" has some major issues around exclusivity and knowledge. Which

strikes me as

odd, since he or she doesn't even seem to understand - or at least practice

- the

fundamentals of ANY yogic philosophy.

Bad form - in ANY practice. Patricia - and everyone who had to read this -

deserves an