Guest guest Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 In a message dated 11/9/2006 1:07:02 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kailashana (AT) cox (DOT) net writes: A THORN, A ROSE Why speak of tears and love, an incongruity, perhaps the answer is the question of why speak at all if love doesn't tear us limb to limb and torture our soul from our open mouth extracting a certain vengeance in the matter of tears and tearing-- a recognition of water we are nothing but water and salt commodities bargained for and lost perpetually abstracted and absconded a device, a thorn to remove a thorn when all we ever wanted was to be as beautiful as a Rose ;-) That's very nice, Anna. If you're not careful, you might start to inspire me again. Reflections of Source Reflect as source The creatures of the forest, Untamed beauty and flowing grace play also the game of predator and prey Much like the rapturous beloved Who once broke your heart. The thorn in the rose The enchanting darkness The freedom of a wind struck sea The glory of war The comfort of fire Bittersweet pain A swiftly moving river resists nothing And this is what makes it what it is Stand against it, and you cannot but fall. That which resists nothing is unstoppable. The world is our mirror reflecting vanity Answering the question Who is the fairest one of all? Did you think it was happening Outside of you? Phil , souldreamone wrote: > > > That was well said, David, and let me position myself next to the raker as > the fifth, and agree. > I just got through jabbering elsewhere in response to the question, "Why are > we even talking about concepts at all? We're supposed to be seeking to know, > not to know about." But, of course, we're not 'supposed' to be doing anything > but what we're doing. This is what acceptance is all about. There is, as > you say, a story, and that story has to play out. Mostly, the story is about > avoiding what is, and making something else happen. At the end of the story, > the brave hero gives up utterly and dissolves completely. (Not likely to be a > hit Disney movie.) > > On the issue of moral goodness preceding awakening, I just wanted to mention > that this does not happen due to alignment with man's arbitrary and changing > definition of morality, but with alignment with the nature of divinity. Nor > is it behavioral in essence. When one has attained a state of self love, > acceptance, peace, equanimity, one has released much of the struggle that locks > one into the intense focus on illusion, which is an excellent place to be if > one wishes to notice Truth. > > This state will naturally be expressed in what would generally be perceived > as positive (or good) ways, but not necessarily. If one's personal moral code > dictates that 'good' means working compassionately to relieve suffering, > this person might be dismayed at the behavior of the 'enlightened' one who hides > in a cave and does nothing to relieve the suffering of mankind. This cave > dweller has noticed that nothing has gone horribly wrong to begin with, and life > is a play of Consciousness that is perfection in it's essence and doesn't > need to be fixed. If this moral person decides goodness means kindness and > gentleness, he may be taken aback by the whack of the Zen stick or the sage who > ruins his day by telling his ego something which may make him angry, but > which may also set him free. > > Love is not always gentle. God is not always gentle and accommodating. If > you will allow it, God will bring you to your knees and rip the darkness from > your heart. It most assuredly is not kind and gentle, but it is Love. > > Phil > > > > > In a message dated 11/9/2006 6:19:42 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > holmes_dc writes: > > > One person proclaims, "The Truth is One, not two." > A second responds, "The Truth is neither one nor two." > A third answers, "Why speak of what Truth is or isn't." > A fourth rakes leaves. > > Welcome to the world of nondualism, > Where you're damned if you do, > Damned if you don't, > Forever bound, > And eternally free. > > Is this God playing the fool, > Or the fool playing God? > I can't decide, > So I'll take two tickets please. > > I completely agree with those of who say that in the ultimate sense, there > is no cause and effect, no time and space, no spiritual growth and no people > to be enlightened. To say that certain (good) behavior leads to enlightenment > makes no sense from the highest perspective. > But there is another way of looking at things, which we all do. > Think of creation as a novel that has come into being spontaneously, written > in its entirety. To say that one word causes the next or one page causes > the next would be ridiculous. It is all just a bunch of words, which > represent different concepts. You could theoretically read the pages backwards or > read the words in a random order, and there would be no story at all. > However, when we read the novel from start to finish, there is a story, and > it is real when we identify with it. While everything is predetermined, > there are certain themes in the story. One theme is that when people do good, > good returns to their lives. Another theme is that there are stages of > "growth." Before people walk, they crawl. Before people realize that they don't > exist in the ultimate sense, they start to understand that they are connected > with other people and want to do good and help them. Thus, we can say that > one stage precedes the next, even if nothing ultimately causes anything. I > am not saying that it is impossible for a person to realize the Self without > living a moral life, but this is not common. There aren't many stories of > great saints and sages who ran around and killed and robbed people immediately > prior to realization. > So, to say that doing good "makes" us one way or the other may not be > accurate from the non-causal point of view. But it is still accurate in the scheme > of the relative to say that certain things typically precede other things. > Joyce, as far as the nature of evil goes, evil is just the result of > ignorance of the true nature of the Self. The greater the degree of ignorance, the > greater the potential for evil. When we realize we are all part of one > another, there is no desire to harm others â€" we would be just be harming ourself, > after all. > In Friendship, > David > Dear Friends: Please keep in mind that taking someone's creative and intellectual works (poetry, art, articles, essays, posts, etc.) without permission of the authors is a violation of copyright laws. This especially applies to this list, , as it is a private list which can be viewed by members only. Most individuals do allow their artistic and creative work to be posted elsewhere if you request it and use their work in a not-for-profit format for benefit of others. So that is not usually a problem. However, if you are taking content from this list with a profit motive (such as promotion of your site in order to sell products, ads, etc.), it is critical that you seek the explicit and written permission from the authors whose works you are using. Acting in any other way is dishonest. Thank you. _________ Magazine and Website is at community blog is at http://.net/blog/ "Love itself is the actual form of God." Sri Ramana In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 if the so called guru is a dishonest and inauthentic jerk, that surely does not automatically imply Enlightenment Oh, bingo, bingo, nobody here has made any implication that it would. Personally, in spite of the problematic nature of expectations, I would expect one through whom awakening has occurred to be brutally authentic and honest. This may be behavior, of which, many 'moral' men may not approve. Imagine, for a moment, what that may look like around the Thanksgiving dinner table. Think twice before you invite a guru to dinner. Phil In a message dated 11/9/2006 3:00:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, maharishibingo writes: Whether Enlightenment creates "proper behavior" or not is a moot point. On the other hand, if the so called guru is a dishonest and inauthentic jerk, that surely does not automatically imply Enlightenment. Have you heard of Occam's razor principle. Here it is from the Wiki. Occam's razor states that the explanation of any _phenomenon_ (mip://0367bd60/wiki/Phenomenon) should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating, or "shaving off," those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory _hypothesis_ (mip://0367bd60/wiki/Hypothesis) or _theory_ (mip://0367bd60/wiki/Theory) . In short, when given two equally valid explanations for a phenomenon, one should embrace the less complicated formulation. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (law of succinctness):Essentially, what this implies is that if a person acts in a manner lacking integrity and is dishonest and self-serving we need not find a complex explanation for such a behavior. The simplest explanation will do. Love and Blessings Maharishi Bingo - The Guru of Gurus (GOG) And Super Enlightened (SE). GOGASE On 11/9/06, _souldreamone (AT) aol (DOT) com_ (souldreamone (AT) aol (DOT) com) <_souldreamone (AT) aol (DOT) com_ (souldreamone (AT) aol (DOT) com) > wrote: ......in the context of nonduality, gurus and Balsekar. I guess we could conclude that enlightenment doesn't necessarily create 'proper' behavior. Not so coincidentally, I just got this daily quote of Balsekar, for what it's worth. (As a disclaimer, I have no attachment one way or the other to any guru or teaching.) ------------------------------ A Net of Jewels Ramesh S. Balsekar _http://www.advaita_ (http://www.advaita/) .org November 9 The virtue and unpretentious naturalness of the sage often goes unnoticed because of its ordinariness. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ The sage, or the wise man, is well aware of the artificialities of the world of men. ------ In a message dated 11/8/2006 6:54:49 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, maharishibingo (AT) _gmail (DOT) com_ (http://gmail.com/) writes: I was not talking about enlightenment but simply being a gentleman. Love and Blessings Maharishi Bingo Ram Love, serve, and be helpful, but without getting disgusted, tired, pessimistic, and exhausted. Blessings dear souls, blessings! On 11/8/06, _souldreamone (AT) aol (DOT) com_ (souldreamone (AT) aol (DOT) com) <_ souldreamone (AT) aol (DOT) com_ (souldreamone (AT) aol (DOT) com) > wrote: No human ever became enlightened, or ever will. Phil In a message dated 11/8/2006 1:51:14 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, maharishibingo (AT) _gmail (DOT) com_ (http://gmail.com/) writes: Dear One, You are perceptive indeed. Your good karma allows you to recognize brilliant wisdom instantly. Good deeds in past life have made you receptive to receive higher knowledge. I bow to your pure insights. One of the troubles with nonduality is that it allows many so called gurus like Ramesh Baleskar to use a standard line when they are accused of groping women and other lewd behavior. They simply say, "it was just my body/mind mechanism doing it in a pre-determined fashion." Such people have fragmented and unenlightened minds. I have yet to hear a guru who is accused of having an affair with some pretty lady simply say something like, "Well, when I saw her, my mouth hung wide open and I thought gee, she's really cute and wouldn't it be wonderful to do a few laps around the pool with her." Frankly, I prefer integrity and authenticity over nonduality any day. Love and Blessings Maharishi Bingo Ram Love, serve, and be helpful, but without getting disgusted, tired, pessimistic, and exhausted. Blessings dear souls, blessings! -- Love, serve, and be helpful, but without getting disgusted, tired, pessimistic, and exhausted. Blessings dear souls, blessings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 - souldreamone (AT) AOL (DOT) com Thursday, November 09, 2006 10:17 PM Re: Good God! In a message dated 11/9/2006 1:07:02 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kailashana (AT) cox (DOT) net writes: A THORN, A ROSE Why speak of tears and love, an incongruity, perhaps the answer is the question of why speak at all if love doesn't tear us limb to limb and torture our soul from our open mouth extracting a certain vengeance in the matter of tears and tearing-- a recognition of water we are nothing but water and salt commodities bargained for and lost perpetually abstracted and absconded a device, a thorn to remove a thorn when all we ever wanted was to be as beautiful as a Rose ;-) That's very nice, Anna. If you're not careful, you might start to inspire me again. Reflections of Source Reflect as source The creatures of the forest, Untamed beauty and flowing grace play also the game of predator and prey Much like the rapturous beloved Who once broke your heart. The thorn in the rose The enchanting darkness The freedom of a wind struck sea The glory of war The comfort of fire Bittersweet pain A swiftly moving river resists nothing And this is what makes it what it is Stand against it, and you cannot but fall. That which resists nothing is unstoppable. The world is our mirror reflecting vanity Answering the question Who is the fairest one of all? Did you think it was happening Outside of you? Phil ======================================================== You know, the directions this thread has taken all remind me of a Ramana story. I was beginning to think I had landed in Lucknow :-) You can talk nonduality in theory all you want, but the Mystery still remains. Glad to see the Mystery still has its place in some hearts. http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Stories/Papaji/Two_wings.htm Love, Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 , "Lady Joyce" <shaantih wrote: > > > - > souldreamone > > Thursday, November 09, 2006 10:17 PM > Re: Good God! > > > In a message dated 11/9/2006 1:07:02 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > kailashana writes: > A THORN, A ROSE > > > > Why speak of tears and love, > > an incongruity, > > perhaps the answer is the question > > of why speak at all > > if > > love doesn't tear us limb to limb > > and > > torture our soul from our open mouth > > extracting a certain vengeance > > in the matter of tears and tearing-- > > a recognition of water > > > > we are nothing but water > > and salt > > > > commodities > > bargained for and lost > > perpetually > > abstracted and absconded > > a device, a thorn > > to remove a thorn > > when all we ever wanted > > > > was to be as beautiful as a Rose > > > > ;-) > > > > > That's very nice, Anna. If you're not careful, you might start to inspire me > again. > > Reflections of Source > Reflect as source > The creatures of the forest, > Untamed beauty and flowing grace > play also the game of predator and prey > Much like the rapturous beloved > Who once broke your heart. > > The thorn in the rose > The enchanting darkness > The freedom of a wind struck sea > The glory of war > The comfort of fire > Bittersweet pain > > A swiftly moving river resists nothing > And this is what makes it what it is > Stand against it, and you cannot but fall. > That which resists nothing > is unstoppable. > > The world is our mirror > reflecting vanity > Answering the question > Who is the fairest one of all? > > Did you think it was happening > Outside of you? > Phil > > ======================================================== > You know, the directions this thread has taken all remind me of a Ramana > story. > I was beginning to think I had landed in Lucknow :-) > You can talk nonduality in theory all you want, but the Mystery > still remains. Glad to see the Mystery still has its place in some hearts. > > http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Stories/Papaji/Two_wings.htm > > > > Love, > > Joyce > Thank you Joyce, I am always broken-hearted when I see Ramana's face. The mystery is clearly etched...in the light of his eyes... A PERFECT BALANCE I understand triangles now. I understand the yellow warmth of a single sun and the pristine silence of nightfall, the wisdom of shooting stars bewitching the silvering moon ....how her reflection gathers deep folds in an empty sky, ....how wings carry the song of Gaia in the humble brown of a sparrow, how love could bleed shimmering iridescence on the ruby throat of a hummingbird, how a gilded cage makes the nightingale sing all the sweeter as the scent of jasmine fills the wonder of translucent memory ....how only bare trees ever touch the heart in all the seasons of a nascent earth, cling like fists to heaven. ....and only in an utter perfect balance can a human being walk forth from a raging roaring sea pure wet and shining dazzled in the Light leave wet footprints in the white glistening sand... Love, Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Love and Love again is the only culprit. I love to get lost I love the burning heart I love Nothing and All All pointing to Nothing Nothing pointing to All my woman breast melting in the total intimacy of Self inhering to self an open womb embracing the universe newborn in every instant every instant needs the Mother and She is there holding it with infinite tenderness flesh of Her flesh emptiness of Her emptiness Love of Her Love Marifa - anabebe57 Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:15 PM Re: Good God! Not even close, ALL is in ME... wink. (I think this is where I came in...) EVE TRANSFIGURED How did I ever get so lost in This? Who turned This into my nightmare? How did the candle burn my paper heart? What image remains in Nothing? Where do words fly when the syntax is apex? Is green the colour of a verdant heart? Is a beating heart lost in Silence Is the finger the Moon? Who am I if not the inherent softness of a woman's breast? Love, Anna , "Emanuele De Benedetti" <e.debenedetti wrote: > > Dear Bingo, > > from what you are saying it seems that you never heard > > an angry person, or just disappointed, saying bad words about God, I did. (Italy) > > In what world do you live? for sure it is not my world. > > Apriori relationship between good and God? > > Do you mean evil is not God's creation? (may be the good you refer to is prior to the > creation of the polarity good and bad, then all this doesn't apply) > > Yes may be some things are more conducive to Truth than others > > as long as we live in duality > > but when one is Truth itself nothing makes any difference > > everything is Mine and there is no other, evil or good, I am what I am, > > and all is in Me > > > > > Marifa > > > - > Maharishi Bingo > > Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:04 PM > Good God! > > > Dear Ones: > > If we look at linguistic structures behind thought that give birth to > language we can discover the apriori relationships that mind > perceives between God and the world. Since all religions come from the > mind, God is associated with goodness. > > Even the term God and good are related. When people are surprised, > they exclaim, "Good God!" No one says, "Bad God!" Everyone says "Good > God!". > > So in the relative perceptions associated with the mind, one is able > distinguish between good and bad but remain impartial and calm in > consciousness that allows transcendence to Sat-Chit-Ananda. If we > examine carefully the language, we do not see any bad words associated > with the Absolute, only good words. > > How can it be explained unless goodness is the bridge to the > Absolute? Just look at > Patanjali's yoga sutras. > > This apriori relationship between God and Good suggests that by being > good, we become Godlike. > > "Man was made in the image of God." By Realizing our true image, we > realize the Absolute nature as being beyond both good and bad and yet > being purely good manifesting in prakriti. > > OK, enough of that stuff. Back to Krishna Das doing his Elvis > impersonation, "Don't be cruel, to a heart thats true." > > Love and blessings > > Love, serve, and be helpful, but without getting disgusted, tired, pessimistic, > and exhausted. Blessings dear souls, blessings! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 In a message dated 11/10/2006 9:39:38 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, shaantih (AT) comcast (DOT) net writes: - souldreamone (AT) AOL (DOT) com Thursday, November 09, 2006 10:17 PM Re: Good God! In a message dated 11/9/2006 1:07:02 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kailashana (AT) cox (DOT) net writes: A THORN, A ROSE Why speak of tears and love, an incongruity, perhaps the answer is the question of why speak at all if love doesn't tear us limb to limb and torture our soul from our open mouth extracting a certain vengeance in the matter of tears and tearing-- a recognition of water we are nothing but water and salt commodities bargained for and lost perpetually abstracted and absconded a device, a thorn to remove a thorn when all we ever wanted was to be as beautiful as a Rose ;-) That's very nice, Anna. If you're not careful, you might start to inspire me again. Reflections of Source Reflect as source The creatures of the forest, Untamed beauty and flowing grace play also the game of predator and prey Much like the rapturous beloved Who once broke your heart. The thorn in the rose The enchanting darkness The freedom of a wind struck sea The glory of war The comfort of fire Bittersweet pain A swiftly moving river resists nothing And this is what makes it what it is Stand against it, and you cannot but fall. That which resists nothing is unstoppable. The world is our mirror reflecting vanity Answering the question Who is the fairest one of all? Did you think it was happening Outside of you? Phil ======================================================== You know, the directions this thread has taken all remind me of a Ramana story. I was beginning to think I had landed in Lucknow :-) You can talk nonduality in theory all you want, but the Mystery still remains. Glad to see the Mystery still has its place in some hearts. _http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Stories/Papaji/Two_wings.htm_ (http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Stories/Papaji/Two_wings.htm) I enjoyed the story. Thanks. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 The world is a poet longing to be held in the word made flesh... , "Emanuele De Benedetti" <e.debenedetti wrote: > > Love and Love again is the only culprit. > > I love to get lost > > I love the burning heart > > I love Nothing and All > > All pointing to Nothing > > Nothing pointing to All > > my woman breast melting > > in the total intimacy > > of Self inhering to self > > an open womb embracing > > the universe newborn > > in every instant > > every instant needs the Mother > > and She is there holding it > > with infinite tenderness > > flesh of Her flesh > > emptiness of Her emptiness > > Love of Her Love > > > Marifa > > > - > anabebe57 > > Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:15 PM > Re: Good God! > > > Not even close, > ALL is in ME... > > wink. > > (I think this is where I came in...) > > EVE TRANSFIGURED > > How did I ever get so lost in This? > Who turned This into my nightmare? > How did the candle burn my paper heart? > What image remains in Nothing? > > Where do words fly when the syntax is apex? > Is green the colour of a verdant heart? > Is a beating heart lost in Silence > Is the finger the Moon? > > Who am I if not the inherent softness of a woman's breast? > > Love, > Anna > > , "Emanuele De Benedetti" > <e.debenedetti@> wrote: > > > > Dear Bingo, > > > > from what you are saying it seems that you never heard > > > > an angry person, or just disappointed, saying bad words about God, > I did. (Italy) > > > > In what world do you live? for sure it is not my world. > > > > Apriori relationship between good and God? > > > > Do you mean evil is not God's creation? (may be the good you refer > to is prior to the > > creation of the polarity good and bad, then all this doesn't apply) > > > > Yes may be some things are more conducive to Truth than others > > > > as long as we live in duality > > > > but when one is Truth itself nothing makes any difference > > > > everything is Mine and there is no other, evil or good, I am what I > am, > > > > and all is in Me > > > > > > > > > > Marifa > > > > > > - > > Maharishi Bingo > > > > Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:04 PM > > Good God! > > > > > > Dear Ones: > > > > If we look at linguistic structures behind thought that give > birth to > > language we can discover the apriori relationships that mind > > perceives between God and the world. Since all religions come > from the > > mind, God is associated with goodness. > > > > Even the term God and good are related. When people are surprised, > > they exclaim, "Good God!" No one says, "Bad God!" Everyone > says "Good > > God!". > > > > So in the relative perceptions associated with the mind, one is > able > > distinguish between good and bad but remain impartial and calm in > > consciousness that allows transcendence to Sat-Chit-Ananda. If we > > examine carefully the language, we do not see any bad words > associated > > with the Absolute, only good words. > > > > How can it be explained unless goodness is the bridge to the > > Absolute? Just look at > > Patanjali's yoga sutras. > > > > This apriori relationship between God and Good suggests that by > being > > good, we become Godlike. > > > > "Man was made in the image of God." By Realizing our true image, > we > > realize the Absolute nature as being beyond both good and bad and > yet > > being purely good manifesting in prakriti. > > > > OK, enough of that stuff. Back to Krishna Das doing his Elvis > > impersonation, "Don't be cruel, to a heart thats true." > > > > Love and blessings > > > > Love, serve, and be helpful, but without getting disgusted, > tired, pessimistic, > > and exhausted. Blessings dear souls, blessings! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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