Guest guest Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 I have commented on earlier what seems to be the source of David Godman: "1. Ajata vada or the theory of non-causality. This is an ancient Hindu doctrine which states that the creation of the world never happened at all. It is a complete denial of all causality in the physical world. Sri Ramana endorsed this view by saying that it is the jnani's (Man who is Self-realised) experience that nothing ever comes into existence or ceases to be because the Self alone exists as the sole unchanging reality. It is a corollary of this theory that time, space, cause and effect, essential components of all creation theories, exist only in the minds of ajnanis (ignorant) and that the experience of the Self reveals their non-existence. " Why does he say Sri Ramana 'endorsed' this view: 'the creation of the world never happened at all'? Is this a fact? If so please enlighten me. Until it happens I believe the explanation could be like this ( unlike Ramana I have a theory on this matter ) Two friends meditate together. One of them enters a state of nonduality. And I guess it must be after, since he does not say 'there is no creation', but tells his friend (I am sure in great joy and happiness), 'the creation of the world never happened at all'. The other denies it Why not use Ramanas words as they are? I am sure he will admit to an addition or maybe even a correction in Wikipedia and other places Alan 'Talks with Ramana Maharshi' page 421. Maharshi: There are three methods of approach in Advaita vada. 1. The ajaata vaada is represented by no loss, no creation, no one bound, no saadhaka, no one desirous of liberation, no liberation. This is the Supreme Truth. (Mandukya Karika, 2.32) According to this, there is only One and it admits of no discussion. 2. Drishti Srishtivada is illustrated thus : Simultaneous creation. There are two friends sleeping side by side. One of them dreams that he goes to Benares with his friend and returns. He tells his friend that both of them have been in Benares. The other denies it. The statement is true from the standpoint of one and the denial from that of the other. 3. Srishti Drishtivada is plain (Gradual creation and knowledge of it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 If I may offer a few words on Ajata Vada... This seems clearly what Ramana and Sankara (and my teacher, Nome) teach. I suspect that it cannot really be understood by the mind. The mind, after all, seems created (and thus will die). The Self, God, Brahman is described by sages as without attribute, without beginning, without end (among other nondual descriptions). If without beginning or end, it is the Uncreated (Ajata). It is like, in the analogy of the snake and the rope, was the snake ever created? Sankara taught sravana, manana and nididhyasana (listen, reflect, deeply meditate). As a seeker, I approach the teaching of Ajata Vada in this way, rather than trying 'to figure it out.' Not two, Richard , "Alan" <alan wrote: > > > > I have commented on earlier what seems to be the source of David Godman: > > "1. Ajata vada or the theory of non-causality. This is an > ancient Hindu doctrine which states that the creation of > the world never happened at all. It is a complete denial > of all causality in the physical world. Sri Ramana > endorsed this view by saying that it is the jnani's (Man > who is Self-realised) experience that nothing ever > comes into existence or ceases to be because the > Self alone exists as the sole unchanging reality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 _____ [] On Behalf Of Richard Clarke Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:02 AM Re: Re-Creation theories. --- According to this, .... If I may offer a few words on Ajata Vada... This seems clearly what Ramana and Sankara (and my teacher, Nome) teach. I suspect that it cannot really be understood by the mind. The mind, after all, seems created (and thus will die). The Self, God, Brahman is described by sages as without attribute, without beginning, without end (among other nondual descriptions). If without beginning or end, it is the Uncreated (Ajata). It is like, in the analogy of the snake and the rope, was the snake ever created? Sankara taught sravana, manana and nididhyasana (listen, reflect, deeply meditate). As a seeker, I approach the teaching of Ajata Vada in this way, rather than trying 'to figure it out.' Not two, Richard @ <%40> , "Alan" <alan wrote: > > > > I have commented on earlier what seems to be the source of David Godman: > > "1. Ajata vada or the theory of non-causality. This is an > ancient Hindu doctrine which states that the creation of > the world never happened at all. It is a complete denial > of all causality in the physical world. Sri Ramana > endorsed this view by saying that it is the jnani's (Man > who is Self-realised) experience that nothing ever > comes into existence or ceases to be because the > Self alone exists as the sole unchanging reality Dear Richard, IMO Ajativada when understood correctly means that the Self is unborn. Nothing whatsoever exists except the Self and therefore existence too is unborn. The term ajativada has been used in regard to creation. IMO There is no creation. There is only the Self and the Self is unborn. There was never a beginning to existence or to the Self for they are the same. Existence was not created. Existence is the Sat in Sat-Chit-Ananda. However, there is a Being, unmanifest, indescribable, incredibly blissful, a veritable Ocean of Life. It is the source and the sum of all. Direct knowledge of the unmanifest causes the peace of union with the eternal. It causes the jiva to know the answer to the question "Who am I". The following is from: SRI RAMANA GITA--Chapter One, ON THE IMPORTANCE OF UPASANA "First Question: Is Mukti (Release from phenomenal existence) to be had by mere discrimination between the real and the unreal or are there other means for the ending of bondage? Answer to the First Question: Abidance in the Self alone releases one from all bonds. Discrimination between the real and the unreal leads to non-attachment. The jnani is unfathomable; he abides always in the Self alone. He does not consider the universe as unreal or as different from himself. THE FOLLOWING QUOTATIONS ARE FROM THE VIVEKACUDAMANI OF SRI SHANKARA: Verse 227: "All this universe which through ignorance appears as of diverse forms, is nothing else but Brahman which is absolutely free from all the limitations of human thought." Verse 230: "Similarly, the whole universe, being the effect of the real Brahman, is in reality nothing but Brahman. Its essence is That, and it does not exist apart from It. He who says it does is still under delusion--he babbles like one asleep." Verses 237-238: "Hence whatever is manifested, viz. this universe, is the Supreme Brahman Itself, the Real, the One without a second, pure, the Essence of Knowledge, taintless, serene devoid of beginning and end, beyond activity, the Essence of Bliss Absolute--transcending all the diversities created by Maya or nescience, eternal, ever beyond the reach of pain, indivisible, immeasurable, formless, undifferentiated, nameless, immutable, self-luminous." 339. To realize the whole universe as the Self is the means of getting rid of bondage. There is nothing higher than identifying the universe with the Self. Warm regards, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 ....and at some point, everything is remembered, everything becomes the self-same-One. in this, the work of the Siddhas. Itt is boundless, limitess passion and compassion of the I that is We. Love, Anna , "Michael Bowes" <aumshanti wrote: > > _____ > > [] > On Behalf Of Richard Clarke > Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:02 AM > > Re: Re-Creation theories. -- - > According to this, .... > > > > If I may offer a few words on Ajata Vada... > > This seems clearly what Ramana and Sankara (and my teacher, Nome) > teach. > > I suspect that it cannot really be understood by the mind. The mind, > after all, seems created (and thus will die). > > The Self, God, Brahman is described by sages as without attribute, > without beginning, without end (among other nondual descriptions). > > If without beginning or end, it is the Uncreated (Ajata). It is like, > in the analogy of the snake and the rope, was the snake ever > created? > > Sankara taught sravana, manana and nididhyasana (listen, reflect, > deeply meditate). As a seeker, I approach the teaching of Ajata Vada > in this way, rather than trying 'to figure it out.' > > Not two, > Richard > > @ <%40> > , "Alan" <alan@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have commented on earlier what seems to be the source of David > Godman: > > > > "1. Ajata vada or the theory of non-causality. This is an > > ancient Hindu doctrine which states that the creation of > > the world never happened at all. It is a complete denial > > of all causality in the physical world. Sri Ramana > > endorsed this view by saying that it is the jnani's (Man > > who is Self-realised) experience that nothing ever > > comes into existence or ceases to be because the > > Self alone exists as the sole unchanging reality > > > > Dear Richard, > > IMO > > Ajativada when understood correctly means that the Self is unborn. Nothing > whatsoever exists except the Self and therefore existence too is unborn. > > The term ajativada has been used in regard to creation. IMO There is no > creation. There is only the Self and the Self is unborn. There was never a > beginning to existence or to the Self for they are the same. Existence was > not created. > > Existence is the Sat in Sat-Chit-Ananda. > > However, there is a Being, unmanifest, indescribable, incredibly blissful, a > veritable Ocean of Life. It is the source and the sum of all. Direct > knowledge of the unmanifest causes the peace of union with the eternal. It > causes the jiva to know the answer to the question "Who am I". > > > > The following is from: SRI RAMANA GITA--Chapter One, ON THE IMPORTANCE OF > UPASANA > > > > "First Question: > > Is Mukti (Release from phenomenal existence) to be had by mere > discrimination between the real and the unreal or are there other means for > the ending of bondage? > > Answer to the First Question: > > Abidance in the Self alone releases one from all bonds. Discrimination > between the real and the unreal leads to non-attachment. > > The jnani is unfathomable; he abides always in the Self alone. He does not > consider the universe as unreal or as different from himself. > > > > > > THE FOLLOWING QUOTATIONS ARE FROM THE VIVEKACUDAMANI OF SRI SHANKARA: > > > > Verse 227: "All this universe which through ignorance appears as of diverse > forms, is nothing else but Brahman which is absolutely free from all the > limitations of human thought." > > > > Verse 230: "Similarly, the whole universe, being the effect of the real > Brahman, is in reality nothing but Brahman. Its essence is That, and it > does not exist apart from It. He who says it does is still under > delusion--he babbles like one asleep." > > > > Verses 237-238: "Hence whatever is manifested, viz. this universe, is the > Supreme Brahman Itself, the Real, the One without a second, pure, the > Essence of Knowledge, taintless, serene devoid of beginning and end, beyond > activity, the Essence of Bliss Absolute--transcending all the diversities > created by Maya or nescience, eternal, ever beyond the reach of pain, > indivisible, immeasurable, formless, undifferentiated, nameless, immutable, > self-luminous." > > > > 339. To realize the whole universe as the Self is the means of getting rid > of bondage. There is nothing higher than identifying the universe with the > Self. > > > > Warm regards, > > Michael > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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