Guest guest Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Hi Y'all, There is one more thing about this verse, about the practice of discrimination in relation to our desires, that I feel will be helpful, before the topic closes. So far we have been looking at this from the perspective of using our discrimination to stop our desires as they begin to manifest, before we act on them. This is Swamiji's main focus in his commentary, and this is the goal. But it is difficult to achieve such a strong discrimination when a desire already has a strong hold on our minds, when the mind is already saying "Yes, let me enjoy; let me express that." When the pull is very strong, we have two choices. We can deny the desire, and stuff it, or we can just give-in and "enjoy". Denial is a part of the tapas of spiritual life, but too much denial can warp the mind and personality. It is not always easy, for me at least, to understand the difference between proper denial and stuffing. In the normal progress of life discrimination of desires occurs as a matter of course, over time and with experience. If your desire is to touch the beautiful, warm fire, it is not long at all before that desire is gone. It only requires the sure connection between desire and a result you find painful, as Swamiji has pointed out. With desires involving more complex relationships between the actions and the results, it can take a very long time indeed (lifetimes) before we finally learn. But it need not. If we find ourselves with a strong desire and we don't want to deny it, we can choose the middle ground. We can consciously choose to satisfy it - with discrimination. Satisfying a desire with discrimination includes all of the things Swamiji mentioned in his commentary, but instead of before the desire is fulfilled, as a means to stop it, the practice is done while the desire is being fulfilled. This is not my own idea. It is from the Upanishads (though I cannot remember where). Actually, I think this very sutra includes the idea of this practice in its statement. The sutra could have stated, "By satisfying or denying desire...", but instead said, "The fruit of the attempt to satisfy desire...", which includes the attempt to satisfy first, but also implicitly includes denial. The advantage to this is that with some desires the confusion they engender is too strong to break through. It's too hard to get the clarity to see the desire and its results clearly, dispassionately. Practicing discrimination while you fulfill your desire can help you see all the subtle thoughts and feelings, all the psychological "hooks", that make the desire so appealing, and can help you firmly connect the results of fulfillment to your current spiritual state (how do I feel; where is God in this; what happens now). The key, of course, is your intention not merely to enjoy, and so get lost in the desire, but to focus on your ultimate goal, and on obtaining the light to be master of the desire, not its slave. So you need to watch, carefully, dispassionately, and question, mercilessly, and when you perceive some truth, hold on to it tenaciously. As Swamiji wrote, "Follow events through their logical sequences to their ultimate conclusion and what will you get? Will [does] this action produce pleasure [and of what quality]? Or will the pleasure be so transient and the pain so great that the reward hardly justifies the price?...If we want knowledge, then we will look at our process very clearly and analyze step by step what we propose to get...Define the necessity for this action. Don't just try to rationalize it. Define it. Look deeply at the consequences..." (p.36 The Guru and the Goddess). Obviously some desires are too unthinkable to even contemplate fulfilling, even in this manner. Some desires, too, will prove so stubborn that light will dawn only slowly and with repeated practice. But until you can catch, examine, and burn a desire without action, this is an effective way to bring light into the darkness. Jai Maa! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Dear Chris, Thought is the flywheel which drives desire. A single thought is attended with a rather low-level energy field. As-and if-that thought is repeated, the energy level ramps up in direct proportion. We feel that energy level as intensity of desire. A desire which seems to be beyond control-a compulsion-is attended with machinegun-like repetitions of the origional thought. The only way to back out of a very strong desire which one has come understand is not in his best interest, is to fast from that thought without acting on the desire: one nibble less every so often, then another nibble less, until the thought is reduced, and the correspondiing desire quiets down. The path of "satisfying the desire with discrimination" is also a way (most) often used. But it involves loss of time, loss of Light, and (sometimes) loss of "face". Time is Eternal; it is a matter of how rapidly one wishes to progress in spiritual life. Most Respectfully, Tanmaya , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956 wrote: > > Hi Y'all, > > There is one more thing about this verse, about the practice of > discrimination in relation to our desires, that I feel will be > helpful, before the topic closes. > > So far we have been looking at this from the perspective of using our > discrimination to stop our desires as they begin to manifest, before > we act on them. This is Swamiji's main focus in his commentary, and > this is the goal. But it is difficult to achieve such a strong > discrimination when a desire already has a strong hold on our minds, > when the mind is already saying "Yes, let me enjoy; let me express that." > > When the pull is very strong, we have two choices. We can deny the > desire, and stuff it, or we can just give-in and "enjoy". > > Denial is a part of the tapas of spiritual life, but too much denial > can warp the mind and personality. It is not always easy, for me at > least, to understand the difference between proper denial and stuffing. > > In the normal progress of life discrimination of desires occurs as a > matter of course, over time and with experience. If your desire is to > touch the beautiful, warm fire, it is not long at all before that > desire is gone. It only requires the sure connection between desire > and a result you find painful, as Swamiji has pointed out. > > With desires involving more complex relationships between the actions > and the results, it can take a very long time indeed (lifetimes) > before we finally learn. But it need not. If we find ourselves with a > strong desire and we don't want to deny it, we can choose the middle > ground. We can consciously choose to satisfy it - with discrimination. > > Satisfying a desire with discrimination includes all of the things > Swamiji mentioned in his commentary, but instead of before the desire > is fulfilled, as a means to stop it, the practice is done while the > desire is being fulfilled. > > This is not my own idea. It is from the Upanishads (though I cannot > remember where). Actually, I think this very sutra includes the idea > of this practice in its statement. The sutra could have stated, "By > satisfying or denying desire...", but instead said, "The fruit of the > attempt to satisfy desire...", which includes the attempt to satisfy > first, but also implicitly includes denial. > > The advantage to this is that with some desires the confusion they > engender is too strong to break through. It's too hard to get the > clarity to see the desire and its results clearly, dispassionately. > Practicing discrimination while you fulfill your desire can help you > see all the subtle thoughts and feelings, all the psychological > "hooks", that make the desire so appealing, and can help you firmly > connect the results of fulfillment to your current spiritual state > (how do I feel; where is God in this; what happens now). > > The key, of course, is your intention not merely to enjoy, and so get > lost in the desire, but to focus on your ultimate goal, and on > obtaining the light to be master of the desire, not its slave. So you > need to watch, carefully, dispassionately, and question, mercilessly, > and when you perceive some truth, hold on to it tenaciously. As > Swamiji wrote, "Follow events through their logical sequences to their > ultimate conclusion and what will you get? Will [does] this action > produce pleasure [and of what quality]? Or will the pleasure be so > transient and the pain so great that the reward hardly justifies the > price?...If we want knowledge, then we will look at our process very > clearly and analyze step by step what we propose to get...Define the > necessity for this action. Don't just try to rationalize it. Define > it. Look deeply at the consequences..." (p.36 The Guru and the Goddess). > > Obviously some desires are too unthinkable to even contemplate > fulfilling, even in this manner. Some desires, too, will prove so > stubborn that light will dawn only slowly and with repeated practice. > But until you can catch, examine, and burn a desire without action, > this is an effective way to bring light into the darkness. > > Jai Maa! > Chris > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Thank You Chris, Feel the same way & it may have been in Bhagavad-Gita. Read it a while back that was one of my first books. But it could have been in one of my husbands Budist books. Either way we discussed it in relation to how pushing away atracts. There was something else recently but can't place it Agree discrimanation sld be used. With some things the desire gets to out of proportion if stuffed. Take a young teen with a crush on a guy and let them never get to know each other well enough to see that he is just a normal guy and has his own sets of flaws, not this WOW that she builds up in her head during denying herself the chance to get to know him, for what ever reason. Probly not a good example but one can put on web. Had several experiences such as this in my life. Then when finially allow self to try it found it's not at all what I wanted or thought it would be. Could have tried it in discrimanatingly & found that I cld just let it go. Keep in mind we aren't talking about hurting people or taking drugs or things like that that you KNOW not to do. But things like eating too many sweets (whn get sick or full of nervious energy then catch on) Somethings we just need to experience. If not IT will draw us back around the wheel again. Thanks Debi Chris Kirner <chriskirner1956 > wrote: Hi Y'all, There is one more thing about this verse, about the practice of discrimination in relation to our desires, that I feel will be helpful, before the topic closes. So far we have been looking at this from the perspective of using our discrimination to stop our desires as they begin to manifest, before we act on them. This is Swamiji's main focus in his commentary, and this is the goal. But it is difficult to achieve such a strong discrimination when a desire already has a strong hold on our minds, when the mind is already saying "Yes, let me enjoy; let me express that." When the pull is very strong, we have two choices. We can deny the desire, and stuff it, or we can just give-in and "enjoy". Denial is a part of the tapas of spiritual life, but too much denial can warp the mind and personality. It is not always easy, for me at least, to understand the difference between proper denial and stuffing. In the normal progress of life discrimination of desires occurs as a matter of course, over time and with experience. If your desire is to touch the beautiful, warm fire, it is not long at all before that desire is gone. It only requires the sure connection between desire and a result you find painful, as Swamiji has pointed out. With desires involving more complex relationships between the actions and the results, it can take a very long time indeed (lifetimes) before we finally learn. But it need not. If we find ourselves with a strong desire and we don't want to deny it, we can choose the middle ground. We can consciously choose to satisfy it - with discrimination. Satisfying a desire with discrimination includes all of the things Swamiji mentioned in his commentary, but instead of before the desire is fulfilled, as a means to stop it, the practice is done while the desire is being fulfilled. This is not my own idea. It is from the Upanishads (though I cannot remember where). Actually, I think this very sutra includes the idea of this practice in its statement. The sutra could have stated, "By satisfying or denying desire...", but instead said, "The fruit of the attempt to satisfy desire...", which includes the attempt to satisfy first, but also implicitly includes denial. The advantage to this is that with some desires the confusion they engender is too strong to break through. It's too hard to get the clarity to see the desire and its results clearly, dispassionately. Practicing discrimination while you fulfill your desire can help you see all the subtle thoughts and feelings, all the psychological "hooks", that make the desire so appealing, and can help you firmly connect the results of fulfillment to your current spiritual state (how do I feel; where is God in this; what happens now). The key, of course, is your intention not merely to enjoy, and so get lost in the desire, but to focus on your ultimate goal, and on obtaining the light to be master of the desire, not its slave. So you need to watch, carefully, dispassionately, and question, mercilessly, and when you perceive some truth, hold on to it tenaciously. As Swamiji wrote, "Follow events through their logical sequences to their ultimate conclusion and what will you get? Will [does] this action produce pleasure [and of what quality]? Or will the pleasure be so transient and the pain so great that the reward hardly justifies the price?...If we want knowledge, then we will look at our process very clearly and analyze step by step what we propose to get...Define the necessity for this action. Don't just try to rationalize it. Define it. Look deeply at the consequences..." (p.36 The Guru and the Goddess). Obviously some desires are too unthinkable to even contemplate fulfilling, even in this manner. Some desires, too, will prove so stubborn that light will dawn only slowly and with repeated practice. But until you can catch, examine, and burn a desire without action, this is an effective way to bring light into the darkness. Jai Maa! Chris Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Hi Tanmaya, This too is true for me. There are many dif kinds of desires & each it's own best way of dealing with it. Found with some that come up if I don't play with the thought it won't get worse just as you explained. In my case I have panic attack from time to time. My mind desires to convince me that what ever is going on is dangerious & cld kill me. When THIS happens it feels like I've turned into the robot on Lost in space. Warning! Warning! If listen to long to this I respond. NEGLY and feed it to get worse and pull same stunt next time with me. Mind can have a plan of it's own. Or at least that's what it feels like. Another ex is with these panic attacks I have learned so much about how MY mind works. In learning to deal with them & not let them control me I had to examine my every thought & back track to what ever triggered the panic attack and deal with it so it looses it's control over me. In doing this I found I think about the neg before it happens ( I create it more times than not) With my kids when they were young and would push my buttons ( or I allowed them to ) I found first I thought about how I was going to yell at them then I did. So doing I learned to stop it at the thought and change that plan to a more loving responce. Not bringing all this up for discussion but just as examples. I learn better when can relate to my own experiences. Please don't think I am trying to start a topic here other than the one you'll were on. Just saying I'm glad you'll brought these points up. They reminded me not to fall back into old habbits. Easy to do. Thanks. Debi Dear Chris, Thought is the flywheel which drives desire. A single thought is attended with a rather low-level energy field. As-and if-that thought is repeated, the energy level ramps up in direct proportion. We feel that energy level as intensity of desire. A desire which seems to be beyond control-a compulsion-is attended with machinegun-like repetitions of the origional thought. The only way to back out of a very strong desire which one has come understand is not in his best interest, is to fast from that thought without acting on the desire: one nibble less every so often, then another nibble less, until the thought is reduced, and the correspondiing desire quiets down. The path of "satisfying the desire with discrimination" is also a way (most) often used. But it involves loss of time, loss of Light, and (sometimes) loss of "face". Time is Eternal; it is a matter of how rapidly one wishes to progress in spiritual life. Most Respectfully, Tanmaya , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956 wrote: > > Hi Y'all, > > There is one more thing about this verse, about the practice of > discrimination in relation to our desires, that I feel will be > helpful, before the topic closes. > > So far we have been looking at this from the perspective of using our > discrimination to stop our desires as they begin to manifest, before > we act on them. This is Swamiji's main focus in his commentary, and > this is the goal. But it is difficult to achieve such a strong > discrimination when a desire already has a strong hold on our minds, > when the mind is already saying "Yes, let me enjoy; let me express that." > > When the pull is very strong, we have two choices. We can deny the > desire, and stuff it, or we can just give-in and "enjoy". > > Denial is a part of the tapas of spiritual life, but too much denial > can warp the mind and personality. It is not always easy, for me at > least, to understand the difference between proper denial and stuffing. > > In the normal progress of life discrimination of desires occurs as a > matter of course, over time and with experience. If your desire is to > touch the beautiful, warm fire, it is not long at all before that > desire is gone. It only requires the sure connection between desire > and a result you find painful, as Swamiji has pointed out. > > With desires involving more complex relationships between the actions > and the results, it can take a very long time indeed (lifetimes) > before we finally learn. But it need not. If we find ourselves with a > strong desire and we don't want to deny it, we can choose the middle > ground. We can consciously choose to satisfy it - with discrimination. > > Satisfying a desire with discrimination includes all of the things > Swamiji mentioned in his commentary, but instead of before the desire > is fulfilled, as a means to stop it, the practice is done while the > desire is being fulfilled. > > This is not my own idea. It is from the Upanishads (though I cannot > remember where). Actually, I think this very sutra includes the idea > of this practice in its statement. The sutra could have stated, "By > satisfying or denying desire...", but instead said, "The fruit of the > attempt to satisfy desire...", which includes the attempt to satisfy > first, but also implicitly includes denial. > > The advantage to this is that with some desires the confusion they > engender is too strong to break through. It's too hard to get the > clarity to see the desire and its results clearly, dispassionately. > Practicing discrimination while you fulfill your desire can help you > see all the subtle thoughts and feelings, all the psychological > "hooks", that make the desire so appealing, and can help you firmly > connect the results of fulfillment to your current spiritual state > (how do I feel; where is God in this; what happens now). > > The key, of course, is your intention not merely to enjoy, and so get > lost in the desire, but to focus on your ultimate goal, and on > obtaining the light to be master of the desire, not its slave. So you > need to watch, carefully, dispassionately, and question, mercilessly, > and when you perceive some truth, hold on to it tenaciously. As > Swamiji wrote, "Follow events through their logical sequences to their > ultimate conclusion and what will you get? Will [does] this action > produce pleasure [and of what quality]? Or will the pleasure be so > transient and the pain so great that the reward hardly justifies the > price?...If we want knowledge, then we will look at our process very > clearly and analyze step by step what we propose to get...Define the > necessity for this action. Don't just try to rationalize it. Define > it. Look deeply at the consequences..." (p.36 The Guru and the Goddess). > > Obviously some desires are too unthinkable to even contemplate > fulfilling, even in this manner. Some desires, too, will prove so > stubborn that light will dawn only slowly and with repeated practice. > But until you can catch, examine, and burn a desire without action, > this is an effective way to bring light into the darkness. > > Jai Maa! > Chris > Cheap Talk? Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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