Gurus Present, Initiations Real

[krsna]

 

Gurus Present, Initiations Real

 

BY: TAMOHARADASA (ACBSP)

 

 

 

Nov 27, CALGARY, CANADA (SUN) —

The topic of ritvikism has again risen on the website. I have read most of the ritvik publications, and although impressed by the presentation and conviction, and although I sympathize to the fullest with their intent and idealism, Gour Govinda Swami’s refutation has convinced me of the correctness of continuing the disciplic succession by the standard means of initiating diksa gurus. I accept his statements that advanced devotees are practically always present, by grace of Godhead.

 

 

As hopefully apparent from other comments, I have the highest respect for the many advanced Vaisnavas in our society, and see great value for those fortunate to have taken them as siksa and diksa gurus. However, I also accept the ritvik initiation mode, both, and feel that ritvik disciples of Srila Prabhupada should be accepted and accommodated with no prejudice. They want Srila Prabhupada, no other. This is not a crime deserving of rejection. They should have all privileges as offered by ISKCON. This would also go a long way to ameliorate the hard feelings developing stronger and stronger over this divisive issue.

 

 

It has been pointed out that Srila Prabhupada asked Gour Govinda to act as initiator, and although I have no personal experience of that, I lived with him in 1978, acting as Temple President back when we had but the mud hut on the edge of the desert. We ate simple dahlma once a day, slept on the ground, and were very happy there. No one from outside knew who Maharajah was. Practically, it was those living in Bhubaneswara, including my humble self, who first attempted to fully honor him as the uttama adhikari that he is. Bhagavata Prabhu and Lagudi Prabhu, for example, spent much more time with him in those early days, and were great admirers of Gour Govinda.

 

 

I was and am but a small player in ISKCON, so could only have a minor impact, such as insisting that he sit upon a special seat to give class on Sunday. He refused, but finally relented when informed that such respect was meant for the benefits of the listeners, who would benefit by honoring the Vaisnavas. At that time, he wasn’t even scheduled to give any classes at the annual Mayapura Gaura Purnim festival, though we Bhubaneswara devotees knew that Maharajah was like a diamond hidden under a pile of straw. The local Oriyaan devotees had no doubts as to his exalted status, to the extent that they refused to take diksa from anyone else, even when offered, until he was officially “OK’d” by the ISKCON GBC. His effulgence was generated from within by the Lord, no rubber-stamp vote required. So it is not the case that qualified gurus are now unavailable, as ritvikism argues.

 

 

Further, the ritviks like to point out that the process of initiation is a formality, secondary to sincere hearing and acceptance. This sounds good, but I have an experience that suggests the power of the initiation ceremony. It was in Sridhama Mayapura, 1976. A fire sacrifice was arranged and performed, attended by Srila Prabhupada himself. HH Brahmananda Swami Maharajah taught us the Gayatri, as ritvik. About an hour after the ceremony, I was sitting in the “wall building” chanting. Suddenly, my whole inner visual field totally cleared and expanded, like I was entering a large open space, as opposed to my usual restricted inner state! I felt lighter, 3-D as opposed to 2-D, exactly as if I’d been reborn! I have never been the same since. Since, I have felt saved, free, inspired, clear-headed, awake, happy, etc. This was the single largest change in my consciousness in this lifetime.

 

 

So, like the man who has eaten and feels satisfied, I have taken diksa and feel like a new person. There is no doubt that this ceremony had great value for me in the service of Srila Prabhupada. So, by personal experience, I have to say that this initiation was no mere formality, rather it is dynamically potent, although admittedly secondary to the initiating faith that develops from reading Prabhupada’s books, which is the start. To say that it is mere formality begs the question of why it is done at all? If it is just a formality, then why bother at all, unless there is real value and potency? By encouraging us to take these initiations, Srila Prabhupada established their importance. He also wanted to make it clear that reading his books was in itself also sufficient to enable us to begin to surrender to devotional service, and thus redevelop our love of Godhead. If the Guru is present, take full advantage of the opportunities for service. When the acarya is not present, he is available also in his books, fully. Acintya bheda-abheda tattva. Your servant,

 

Tamoharadasa (ACBSP)

 

 

[suchandra]

Prabhupada: "So Krsna, if you cannot meet Krsna, you can meet with Krsna's representative. Krsna may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad-gita. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. Parampara. Krsna says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam. "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvan manave praha. "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Iksvaku. In this way..." Evam parampara-praptam, there is a disciplic succession. So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Krsna's representative is there. If you talk with the Krsna's representative, then you talk with Krsna. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the, there is a man, departmental-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Krsna, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot..., but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Krsna. It is not difficult. The acaryas are there. Acaryam mam vijaniyam. Krsna says. "All the acaryas," mam vijaniyam, "they are Myself." Navamanyeta karhicit, "Never disregard acarya." Acaryam mam vijaniyam navaman..., na martya-buddhyasuyeta "Do not be envious: `How he can be? He's ordinary man. How he can be representative?' " No. Anyone who is talking of Krsna as Krsna talked, he's Krsna's representative. Krsna says that "I am the Supreme." So if anyone says, "Krsna is supreme," then he's Krsna's representative. It is not very difficult. Because the same talking. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. If somebody says that "You surrender to Krsna," then he's Krsna's representative. But if somebody says, "Krsna is not God. I am God," then he's not representative. To talk with Krsna is not difficult. You find out the representative, talk with him, and you are talking with Krsna. That's all." (Room Conversation, July 11, 1973, London)

 

Someone might ask how can I talk with the guru, if he is not present on this planet?

[Guruvani]

 

Prabhupada: "So Krsna, if you cannot meet Krsna, you can meet with Krsna's representative. Krsna may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad-gita. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. Parampara. Krsna says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam. "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvan manave praha. "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Iksvaku. In this way..." Evam parampara-praptam, there is a disciplic succession. So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Krsna's representative is there. If you talk with the Krsna's representative, then you talk with Krsna. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the, there is a man, departmental-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Krsna, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot..., but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Krsna. It is not difficult. The acaryas are there. Acaryam mam vijaniyam. Krsna says. "All the acaryas," mam vijaniyam, "they are Myself." Navamanyeta karhicit, "Never disregard acarya." Acaryam mam vijaniyam navaman..., na martya-buddhyasuyeta "Do not be envious: `How he can be? He's ordinary man. How he can be representative?' " No. Anyone who is talking of Krsna as Krsna talked, he's Krsna's representative. Krsna says that "I am the Supreme." So if anyone says, "Krsna is supreme," then he's Krsna's representative. It is not very difficult. Because the same talking. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. If somebody says that "You surrender to Krsna," then he's Krsna's representative. But if somebody says, "Krsna is not God. I am God," then he's not representative. To talk with Krsna is not difficult. You find out the representative, talk with him, and you are talking with Krsna. That's all." (Room Conversation, July 11, 1973, London)

 

Someone might ask how can I talk with the guru, if he is not present on this planet?

 

So, Prabhupada said:

 

If somebody says that "You surrender to Krsna," then he's Krsna's representative.

I heard bhakta Freddy telling that to someone at the Sunday Feast.

So, I guess Bhakta Freddy is the representative of Krishna?

Does that mean Bhakta Freddy can be guru too?

 

Srila Prabhupada initiated and accepted many disciples he never talked to.

So, does that mean anything about the need to talk to the guru in order to be his disciple?

The main thing is to hear the guru talking or to read his books.

 

Srila Prabhupada showed practically that devotees did not have to talk to him to become his disciples. If they read his books and followed his teachings, then he accepted them as disciples.

[Guruvani]

I would like to know what is the difference between an initiated devotee teaching someone the Maha-mantra and teaching him the rules for chanting and when some Swami sets on the big cushion and "initiates" a devotee who has already been taught the Maha-mantra by another devotee who does not have some title of "Swami" or "guru"?

 

How can a Swami "initiate" into the Maha-mantra a devotee who has already been chanting for many months or years the Maha-mantra as he was taught by a preacher devotee who brought this person to the temple and taught him how to chant?

 

What is the Magic that the Swami has, that the Brahmana on the street did not have when he gave this person the Maha-mantra?

 

does Krishna only consent to formal initiation ceremonies by some "Swami" setting on the big cushion and holding a title?

Or, does the Maha-mantra have the same effect when a devotee without a title of "guru" gives the mantra to someone?

 

Can the movement ever get beyond external formality, titles and positions and recognize the actaul dynamics of the Sankirtan movement?

 

Some Jet-set Swami flys into the region and pops in to the temple and "initiates" a bunch of devotees and then flys back out for more fun and adventure while the leading devotees in the temple actually nurture and train this "disciple" of some title holder who wears orange robes and calls himself "Swami".

 

My God.... this is all so phoney and external.

What a load of manure.

[Kulapavana]

 

Some Jet-set Swami flys into the region and pops in to the temple and "initiates" a bunch of devotees and then flys back out for more fun and adventure while the leading devotees in the temple actually nurture and train this "disciple" of some title holder who wears orange robes and calls himself "Swami". My God.... this is all so phoney and external.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada had very little contact with most of his disciples. He was flying in and out all the time. You ritviks use that as an example of the idea that only vani is important. Yet in the case of current gurus you call that practice "phoney and external". Make up your mind which is it...

[Guest guest]

Many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples first heard the Maha Mantra from Srila Prabhupada disciples, not Srila Prabhupada himself. Therefore using your logic, Srila Prabhupada was wrong in initiating all those people and was just a 'Swami' sitting on a big cushion!

 

Your post simply shows a lot of enviousness.

 

 

How can a Swami "initiate" into the Maha-mantra a devotee who has already been chanting for many months or years the Maha-mantra as he was taught by a preacher devotee who brought this person to the temple and taught him how to chant?

 

What is the Magic that the Swami has, that the Brahmana on the street did not have when he gave this person the Maha-mantra?

 

does Krishna only consent to formal initiation ceremonies by some "Swami" setting on the big cushion and holding a title?

Or, does the Maha-mantra have the same effect when a devotee without a title of "guru" gives the mantra to someone?

 

Can the movement ever get beyond external formality, titles and positions and recognize the actaul dynamics of the Sankirtan movement?

 

Some Jet-set Swami flys into the region and pops in to the temple and "initiates" a bunch of devotees and then flys back out for more fun and adventure while the leading devotees in the temple actually nurture and train this "disciple" of some title holder who wears orange robes and calls himself "Swami".

 

My God.... this is all so phoney and external.

What a load of manure.

[Guest guest]

 

Make up your mind which is it...

 

 

The quote does not say that ‘to go to a physical spiritual master’ he must be present on the same planet. It cannot be essential to ‘go to’ the physical body of the guru since many of Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciples never met him.

 

Furthermore, Srila Prabhupada is a physical spiritual master since he remains in this material universe until all his disciples are delivered. He never taught that ‘going to him’ meant approaching his physical body, but rather by following his instructions. The following proves your understanding is wrong:

 

Quotes:

 

"Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places. Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. A Spiritual Master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of places by the principle of relay monitoring." SPL 28th May 68

 

"Physical presence is immaterial."

(Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

"But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only with this spiritual connection." (Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69 )

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association.

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18 )

 

"Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association."

(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57 )

 

"Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence."

(CC, Antya 5 Conclusion )

 

"Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence."

(Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75 )

 

"I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja."

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77 )

 

"It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life."

(SB 3:31:48 )

 

"I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent."

(Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67 )

 

 

Paramananda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always meditating on your instructions.

Srila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is not important.

(Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

"You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always thinking of me . That is real association."

(Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69 )

 

"As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence."

(Letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74 )

 

"Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you, still you will be able to execute all spiritual duties in the matter of Krsna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles."

(Letter to Subala, 29/9/67 )

 

"So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living."

(General lectures, 69/01/13 )

 

 

"Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To serve master's word is more important than to serve physically."

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77 )

 

 

"I went to your country for spreading this information of Krsna Consciousness and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present there but spiritually I am always with you."

(Letter to Nandarani, Krsna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67 )

 

"We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same."

(Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70 )

 

 

"I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master's word is more important than to serve him physically." (Letter to Syamasundara, 19/7/70 )

 

 

"Personal association is not so important as association through serving."

(Letter to Satyadhana, 20/2/72)

 

 

"Vani is more important than vapuh."

(Letter to Tusta Krishna Das, 14/12/72)

 

"Yes, I am glad that your centre is doing so well and all the devotees are now appreciating the presence of their spiritual master by following his instructions, although he is no longer present. This is the right spirit."

(Letter to Karandhara, 13/9/70)

 

"The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence."

(SB(1987 Ed) 1.7.22)

 

 

"So we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krsna or Spiritual Master. Never think that I am absent from you, presence by message (or hearing) is the real touch."

(Letter to students, August 1967)

 

"Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material condition."

(SB (1987)Ed) 7.7.1.)

 

"The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the vibrator is apparently absent." (SB 2.9.8.)

 

"If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself. In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the disciple."

(CC(1975 Ed) Adi 1.35)

 

____________________________

 

So far nobody argued that Srila Prabhupada's use of the phrase 'physical presence' is fuzzy - and is it not foolish to continually argue that we need to ‘go to’ the physical body of the guru when the guru himself says this is not necessary??

[Guest guest]

You are trying to make a case that we can ignore the physically present spiritual masters. I cannot agree with that.

 

If that is the case, why should one even approach Srila Prabhupada? Why not Srila BhaktiSidhanta or any of the other earlier Acaryas. According to your post, they must also be present now.

 

 

The quote does not say that ‘to go to a physical spiritual master’ he must be present on the same planet. It cannot be essential to ‘go to’ the physical body of the guru since many of Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciples never met him.

 

Furthermore, Srila Prabhupada is a physical spiritual master since he remains in this material universe until all his disciples are delivered. He never taught that ‘going to him’ meant approaching his physical body, but rather by following his instructions. The following proves your understanding is wrong:

 

Quotes:

 

"Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places. Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. A Spiritual Master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of places by the principle of relay monitoring." SPL 28th May 68

 

"Physical presence is immaterial."

(Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

"But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only with this spiritual connection." (Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69 )

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association.

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18 )

 

"Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association."

(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57 )

 

"Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence."

(CC, Antya 5 Conclusion )

 

"Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence."

(Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75 )

 

"I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja."

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77 )

 

"It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life."

(SB 3:31:48 )

 

"I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent."

(Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67 )

 

 

Paramananda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always meditating on your instructions.

Srila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is not important.

(Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

"You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always thinking of me . That is real association."

(Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69 )

 

"As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence."

(Letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74 )

 

"Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you, still you will be able to execute all spiritual duties in the matter of Krsna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles."

(Letter to Subala, 29/9/67 )

 

"So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living."

(General lectures, 69/01/13 )

 

 

"Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To serve master's word is more important than to serve physically."

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77 )

 

 

"I went to your country for spreading this information of Krsna Consciousness and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present there but spiritually I am always with you."

(Letter to Nandarani, Krsna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67 )

 

"We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same."

(Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70 )

 

 

"I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master's word is more important than to serve him physically." (Letter to Syamasundara, 19/7/70 )

 

 

"Personal association is not so important as association through serving."

(Letter to Satyadhana, 20/2/72)

 

 

"Vani is more important than vapuh."

(Letter to Tusta Krishna Das, 14/12/72)

 

"Yes, I am glad that your centre is doing so well and all the devotees are now appreciating the presence of their spiritual master by following his instructions, although he is no longer present. This is the right spirit."

(Letter to Karandhara, 13/9/70)

 

"The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence."

(SB(1987 Ed) 1.7.22)

 

 

"So we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krsna or Spiritual Master. Never think that I am absent from you, presence by message (or hearing) is the real touch."

(Letter to students, August 1967)

 

"Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material condition."

(SB (1987)Ed) 7.7.1.)

 

"The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the vibrator is apparently absent." (SB 2.9.8.)

 

"If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself. In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the disciple."

(CC(1975 Ed) Adi 1.35)

 

____________________________

 

So far nobody argued that Srila Prabhupada's use of the phrase 'physical presence' is fuzzy - and is it not foolish to continually argue that we need to ‘go to’ the physical body of the guru when the guru himself says this is not necessary??

[Beggar]

 

How can a Swami "initiate" into the Maha-mantra a devotee who has already been chanting for many months or years the Maha-mantra as he was taught by a preacher devotee who brought this person to the temple and taught him how to chant?

 

Did you ever read "Journey to Unknown India" by Walter Eidlitz. Eidlitz was an Austrian Jew who went to India on a spiritual search just before the outbreak of war in Europe in the late thirties. He ended up being interned with Srila Prabhupada's German sanyassa godbrother in a British "concentration camp" for "aliens from combatant countries". Prabhupada's German godbrother preached to Eidlitz for around eightteen months. Eidlitz seemed puffed up with knowledge of impersonalism. One day when the camp was being moved by a train to another location Eidlitz suddenly broke down and more or less paraphrased Arjuna, " I am confused about life and my duty, you are in knowledge and I am now surrendering unto you". At this point the German disciple of Srila Saraswati Thakur told him, Oh, I have been waiting for so many months to tell you the solution, here is a tulasi mala, chant this mantra on it, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, for this day you will be know as (I forget his initiated name). During the entire eighteen months he never, ever spoke, chanted or sung the Mahamantra in front of Eidlitz. He waited until there was some qualification. This was the mood and process in the Gaudiya Math. For rather extreme time, place and circumstances in the 1960's and '70s in America and other "foreign lands" Srila Prabhuapada made certain adjustments to spread Krsna Consciousness on a wide scale. This was his mercy. But the principle was always there in the background. Remember his letter to Satsvaupa Prabhu in the fall of 1971, where he wrote, "if uninitiated persons want chanting beads then they can purchase them in the temple store. No one should give anyone chanting beads except the guru." Srila Prabhupada took the risk that some would express the misconceptions that you are writing in the future. But by his being all-knowing by the Will and Power of Krsna, he knew fully well that all these misconceptions would be cleared up in the early 1980's by Srila Sridhar Maharaja. I know that you have read the books that are coming from Srila Sridhar Maharaja's talks. Why not just submit to these conceptions and express them to others. There are many other Acaryas coming in the line of Srila Saraswati Thakur who say the same exact thing in other words, if you cannot accept them then just stick with Srila Sridhar Maharaja's words.

The "rtviks in the mahamandala" talks may not even be real, which is the opinion of many. So then if you want it first hand then listen to the mp3 recordings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's talks.

[Kulapavana]

 

"Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To serve master's word is more important than to serve physically."

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77 )

 

 

that is the esence of the parampara. no need for all of the new devotees to see Prabhupada as the only available guru. but there is a need for the current gurus to link all their activities to Prabhupada and the rest of our disciplic succession.

 

the quotes you listed above do not in any way negate the need for a physically present spiritual master as a general principle. they simply establish that "life goes on as usual" for the disciple in the physical absence of his guru .

[theist]

I appreciate those quotes guest #7. You have conclusively proven your point. Prabhupada vani is still able to deliver a fallen soul just as it ever was.

 

This over course does not negate the fact that Srila Prabhupada's disciples or others may be able to deliver those that listen to them. It all depends on the bhakti-shakti.

 

I see no reason why both possibilities cannot exist simulataneously.

[Guruvani]

 

Remember his letter to Satsvaupa Prabhu in the fall of 1971, where he wrote, "if uninitiated persons want chanting beads then they can purchase them in the temple store. No one should give anyone chanting beads except the guru."

 

Remember these quotes from the books of Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

"Simply by touching the holy name with one's tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for all these activities. It is self-sufficient.'"

 

or how about..

 

 

"The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles."

 

 

 

Whether a Vaisnava is properly initiated or not is not a subject for consideration. One may be initiated and yet contaminated by the Mayavada philosophy, but a person who chants the holy name of the Lord offenselessly will not be so contaminated. A properly initiated Vaisnava may be imperfect, but one who chants the holy name of the Lord offenselessly is all-perfect. Although he may apparently be a neophyte, he still has to be considered a pure unalloyed Vaisnava.

 

 

The chanting Hare Krishna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there. Now the next initiation will be performed as a ceremony officially, of course that ceremony has value because the name, Holy Name, will be delivered to the student from the disciplic succession, it has got value, but in spite of that, as you are going on chanting, please go on with this business sincerely and Krishna willing, I may be coming to you very soon.

[Guruvani]

 

Remember his letter to Satsvaupa Prabhu in the fall of 1971, where he wrote, "if uninitiated persons want chanting beads then they can purchase them in the temple store. No one should give anyone chanting beads except the guru."

What I remember about real life in ISKCON is that when a curious person came to the temple and wanted to learn how to chant Hare Krishna, some devotee like the Sankirtan devotee, the temple commander, the temple president or the Bhakta leader would give this new devotee some beads to chant on.

I never ONCE saw any new devotee taken into the "store" to buy his first set of beads.

Every new devotee that came to join the temple was given beads by the bhakta leader or whatever devotee was taking charge to preach to this candidate devotee.

This was the real facts on the ground in ISKCON.

 

What you are trying to say about some so-called letter from Prabhupada was not the actual practice in ISKCON then or NOW!!

[Guest guest]

Two Bhagavatas are mentioned in scripture - the book Bhagavata and the person Bhagavata. If you read the book and get the mercy you will understand the necessity of associating with the person Bhagavata. If you associate with the person Bhagavata he/she will instruct you to read the books.

 

Anyone who is associating with A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada by reading his books will realize the necessity of sadhu sanga - it is written everywhere throughout his books.

 

Regarding initiation - it takes two - the initiate and the one giving the initiation. We are not impersonalists - we are personalists to the extreme.

 

Don't get hung up on externals such at title or dress. As someone already pointed out - Srila Prabhupada wore saffron and traveled extensively and had very little and sometimes no personal contact with some of his disciples.

 

Srila Prabhpada wanted (willed) that his disciples would advance and become the sadhus whose association brings about a revolution in the lives of those around them. Srila Prabhupada isn't just present in his books, he is also present in his faithful disciples.

 

I have always found it fascinating that people would advocate following a spiritual practice that they believe yields no fruits. Why take up a practice that others have been following for forty years with no tangible fruit? Makes absolutely no sense to me. If I am going to take up a practice I want to see examples of what it can do for me. Just like if I go to a University for a degree I want to know that the University is accredited and that those who graduated from the University have practical knowledge and have gone on to become experts in their field of study themselves. I also don't want to go to a University where only inexperienced and unqualified teachers ply their trade. I don't care how good their books or buildings are - I need to learn from experts. Why do you suppose Universities recruit and pay for the best professionals in all their different fields of study? If learning from an expert wasn't important then why pay for experts to teach? They provide practical examples of applied knowledge - theory put into practice - very important indeed.

 

At any rate - the answers really are pretty simple - read the books, pray sincerely and associate with those who can help and inspire you in your practice. If/when you find someone who you feel represents your own inner necessity and that person is willing to share their heart with you - then you are indeed a fortunate sadhaka.

[Guruvani]

 

The "rtviks in the mahamandala" talks may not even be real, which is the opinion of many.

 

Talks?

It is not in "talks".

It is in the final, formal and official declaration of spiritual succession that Sridhar Maharaja gave on Gaura Purnima in 1986.

 

It's on the official SCSMatha website.

 

So, you say not even be real?

 

It's amazing the lengths you fellas will go to try and cover up the ritvik appointment of Govinda Maharaja.

 

The ritvik appointment of Govinda Maharaja by Sridhar Maharaja was undone and rejected by a crowd of neophytes who assumed authority upon themselves to override the ritvik appointment of Govinda Maharaja by Sridhar Maharaja.

 

Sridhar Maharaja said he would be ritvik.

The neophyte crowd did not accept that and decided that Govinda Maharaja would NOT be ritvik.

Two of the big "sannyasis" that were responsible for that fell down.

[Guruvani]

 

Two Bhagavatas are mentioned in scripture - the book Bhagavata and the person Bhagavata. If you read the book and get the mercy you will understand the necessity of associating with the person Bhagavata. If you associate with the person Bhagavata he/she will instruct you to read the books.

 

 

The ritviks appointed by Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja were also "bhagavats" who had been empowered to initiated disciples on behalf of the acharya.

All the ISKCON devotees who follow the principles and instructions of the acharya are "bhagavats".

Formal diksha gurus are not the only form of person Bhagavat.

 

The spiritual master sometimes appoints some of the "Bhagavats" to initiate disciples on HIS behalf when he is not present.

 

Titles and dandas are not the qualification for being Bhagavat.

[theist]

 

Anyone who is associating with A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada by reading his books will realize the necessity of sadhu sanga - it is written everywhere throughout his books.

 

Yes, AND anyone associating with A.C. Bhaktivedanta by reading his books IS already receiving sadhu sanga. Both angles are true.

[Kulapavana]

 

The ritviks appointed by Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja were also "bhagavats" who had been empowered to initiated disciples on behalf of the acharya.

All the ISKCON devotees who follow the principles and instructions of the acharya are "bhagavats".

Formal diksha gurus are not the only form of person Bhagavat.

 

The spiritual master sometimes appoints some of the "Bhagavats" to initiate disciples on HIS behalf when he is not present.

 

Titles and dandas are not the qualification for being Bhagavat.

 

it is incredibly hard for me to accept guys like Bhavananda as ever being even remotely near the "bhagavat" category (while Prabhupada was still here, let alone later), however losely defined

 

these ever changing ruber-like ritvik theories crack me up...

[Guruvani]

 

Yes, AND anyone associating with A.C. Bhaktivedanta by reading his books IS already receiving sadhu sanga. Both angles are true.

 

And associating with a ritvik of the acharya is ALSO sadhu sanga.

Some sadhus were empowered by the acharya to initiate disciples on his behalf.

He called them "ritviks".

 

Ritviks are sadhus first, then ritviks second.

[Kulapavana]

 

If/when you find someone who you feel represents your own inner necessity and that person is willing to share their heart with you - then you are indeed a fortunate sadhaka.

 

how very true!

 

that is why I often find myself resenting people who make their mission in life casting doubts on natural relationships like that.

[Guruvani]

 

it is incredibly hard for me to accept guys like Bhavananda as ever being even remotely near the "bhagavat" category (while Prabhupada was still here, let alone later), however losely defined

 

these ever changing ruber-like ritvik theories crack me up...

 

I guess you weren't there in them days, but Bhavananda was one of the most charismatic preachers in ISKCON.

Devotees swooned over him.

He was a practicing devotee and an influential senior disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

 

If you understood anything about foregiveness and mercy, you would not talk like that about devotees like Bhavananda das.

 

But, then again, foregiveness is a brahmincal power that you obviously do not possess.

[Guest guest]

 

 

If you understood anything about foregiveness and mercy, you would not talk like that about devotees like Bhavananda das.

 

But, then again, foregiveness is a brahmincal power that you obviously do not possess.

 

Jaya! Ksamabuddhi forgives Bhavananda for preaching that it is better to eat hamburgers than to listen to Sridhar Maharaja, even though Bhavananda STILL preaches that Sridhar Maharaja was not bona fide.

 

I would only expect such a sentiment from an uttama-adhikari, a loyal GBC supporter, or a badly confused follower of Sridhar Maharaja. Which is Ksamabuddhi?

[Shakti-Fan]

 

He called them "ritviks".

 

I think that the basic problem here is that the devotees don't like the word "rtvik" very much. Maybe Guruvani could get together with the other rtviks and form a GBC. Then perhaps if we could have enough influence they could agree that from this point on the "Rtivk Theory" could be hence forth be known as the "Chopstick Theory". This would go over very big in China where they have over one billion people. Since China is becoming the most influentional nation in the world, the Chop Stick Theory would dominate the devotee scene within one generation, its a sure thing. Wow, this post is making me very hungry for some vegetarian Chinese food. I even know how to use chopsticks! Vegetarian pot stickers anyone?

[Tommy Gouranga]

 

Remember these quotes from the books of Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

 

or how about..

Ok prabhu. But who is chanting offenseless rounds? Who is not breaking any of the ten offenses? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said it's practically impossible to chant Hare Krishna offenselessly in Kali yuga. you need to be a completly pure soul with no tinge of any material desire in your heart or it's tenth offense. So if your not on that stage then you need initiation. These verses are true, you don't need initiation- if your 100% attached to the Holy names and nothing else. Otherwise we are mercy cases. We need Krishnas mercy and we all know that Yasya prasadad Bhaagavat Prasado. without the mercy of the spiritual master one cannot make any advancement. just as krishna is pleased when we please his devotees, Does it not make perfect sense that Srila Prabhupada is also going to be more pleased if you assist his servants who have been spreading this movement since day one, than he is if you ignore these great souls who have sacrificed so much for the benefit of the world and go straight to him. What is our claim to approach Prabhupada directly? A real servant is going to go to the very lowest position and find the servant of the servant and surender there. in the spiritual world, no one wants to approach Krishna directly, everyone wants someone else to take their offering, "you go forward," there is humility, "who am I to approach directly?" Why we try to jump over senior devotees heads and approach Prabhupada directly. It shows a material concept of spiritual life and also pride. Hare KRISHNA. Also you can't fly around the world in an enjoying mood like you are saying. As soon as an enjoying mood comes in, what happens, it increases and takes over and eventually ends in sex life. we see the present day spiritual masters are following the principles. They are blissfull and Krishna conscious. It is envy that we see them any other way.

[Tommy Gouranga]

how many of us are going on book distribution regularly by the way? are any of us putting in a few days for this marathon? Cos if not, this whole thread is complete MAYA!!!!