Gurus Present, Initiations Real

[Guest guest]

 

how many of us are going on book distribution regularly by the way? are any of us putting in a few days for this marathon? Cos if not, this whole thread is complete MAYA!!!!

The following is the six types of unsteady bhakti (anisthitha-bhakti) From Madhurya-kadambini by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura published by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

Utsaha-mayi: A brahmana child, having just begun study of the scriptures, thinks he has immediately become a learned scholar worthy of everyone's praise. Similarly, a person just beginning devotional service may have the audacity to think that he has mastered everything. This is called utsaha-mayi, or filled (puffed-up) with enthusiasm.

 

Ghana-tarala: The same child at times diligently engages in his studies, and yet at other times, due to inability to understand the schoolbooks or lack of real taste, is negligent. In the same way, a new devotee will sometimes practice the different forms of devotional service and at other times neglect them. Being sometimes diligent and at other times negligent, his endeavor is called ghana-tarala (condensed-dilute, thick-thin).

 

Vyudha-vikalpa: "Shall I just spend my life happily in family life, making my wife and children Krsna conscious and worshipping the Lord? Or should I give them all up and go to Vrndavana to perfect myself by engaging full time in hearing and chanting with no distractions? Shall I wait till the last stage, after enjoying all sorts of pleasures and I've finally understood that the whole material world is simply a forest fire of affliction? Or is it better that I renounce right now? In this way, the mind spends time vacillating between the life of renunciation and household life considering the different options. This is called vyudha-vikalpa, or extensive speculation.

 

Visaya-sangara: Seeing that material enjoyment is forcibly carrying him away and impairing his steadiness in serving Krsna, the devotee resolves to renounce his addictions and take shelter of the holy name. But many times his attempts at renunciation often end in enjoying what he's trying to renounce. This on-going battle with his desires for sense enjoyment from former habit, where he sometimes meets with victory and sometimes with defeat, is called visaya-sangara, or struggle with sense pleasure.

 

Niyamaksama: Then the devotee will resolve, "From today I will chant such and such number of rounds of japa and will pay so many obeisances. I'll also perform services for the devotees. I won't talk about anything except the Lord, and I'll give up all association with people who talk gossip." Though the devotee makes such resolutions every day, he is not always able to carry them out. This is called niyamaksama, or inability to follow rules. Visaya-sangara is the inability to give up sense enjoyment, while niyamaksama is the inability to improve his devotional service.

 

Taranga-rangini: Finally, it is well-known that the very nature of bhakti is to be attractive, thus many people become attracted to the devotee. And, as the old adage goes, "By the public's attraction one becomes wealthy." Bhakti produces much opportunity for material gain, worship, and position (labha, puja, pratistha). These are weeds around the creeper of bhakti. Seeking one's pleasure (ranga) amidst these weed-like facilities, which are but small waves (taranga) in the ocean of bhakti, is called taranga-rangini, delighting in material facilities. (Madhurya-kadambini pages 15-18]

[Beggar]

 

how many of us are going on book distribution regularly by the way? are any of us putting in a few days for this marathon? Cos if not, this whole thread is complete MAYA!!!!

Yes, sounds like it may be Utsaha-mayi. First to claim that anyone not going on book distribution regularly or on the "marathon" sounds like a childish statement. It is certainly an audacious statement which would only be made by a person who in their false enthusiasm as a beginner thinks that they have mastered everything in Krsna Consciousness. You may have detected that I am a fallen soul but you cannot generalize about all the devotees like this. To do so is to risk your devotional future.

[bija]

 

The following is the six types of unsteady bhakti (anisthitha-bhakti) From Madhurya-kadambini by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura published by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

Utsaha-mayi: A brahmana child, having just begun study of the scriptures, thinks he has immediately become a learned scholar worthy of everyone's praise. Similarly, a person just beginning devotional service may have the audacity to think that he has mastered everything. This is called utsaha-mayi, or filled (puffed-up) with enthusiasm.

 

Ghana-tarala: The same child at times diligently engages in his studies, and yet at other times, due to inability to understand the schoolbooks or lack of real taste, is negligent. In the same way, a new devotee will sometimes practice the different forms of devotional service and at other times neglect them. Being sometimes diligent and at other times negligent, his endeavor is called ghana-tarala (condensed-dilute, thick-thin).

 

Vyudha-vikalpa: "Shall I just spend my life happily in family life, making my wife and children Krsna conscious and worshipping the Lord? Or should I give them all up and go to Vrndavana to perfect myself by engaging full time in hearing and chanting with no distractions? Shall I wait till the last stage, after enjoying all sorts of pleasures and I've finally understood that the whole material world is simply a forest fire of affliction? Or is it better that I renounce right now? In this way, the mind spends time vacillating between the life of renunciation and household life considering the different options. This is called vyudha-vikalpa, or extensive speculation.

 

Visaya-sangara: Seeing that material enjoyment is forcibly carrying him away and impairing his steadiness in serving Krsna, the devotee resolves to renounce his addictions and take shelter of the holy name. But many times his attempts at renunciation often end in enjoying what he's trying to renounce. This on-going battle with his desires for sense enjoyment from former habit, where he sometimes meets with victory and sometimes with defeat, is called visaya-sangara, or struggle with sense pleasure.

 

Niyamaksama: Then the devotee will resolve, "From today I will chant such and such number of rounds of japa and will pay so many obeisances. I'll also perform services for the devotees. I won't talk about anything except the Lord, and I'll give up all association with people who talk gossip." Though the devotee makes such resolutions every day, he is not always able to carry them out. This is called niyamaksama, or inability to follow rules. Visaya-sangara is the inability to give up sense enjoyment, while niyamaksama is the inability to improve his devotional service.

 

Taranga-rangini: Finally, it is well-known that the very nature of bhakti is to be attractive, thus many people become attracted to the devotee. And, as the old adage goes, "By the public's attraction one becomes wealthy." Bhakti produces much opportunity for material gain, worship, and position (labha, puja, pratistha). These are weeds around the creeper of bhakti. Seeking one's pleasure (ranga) amidst these weed-like facilities, which are but small waves (taranga) in the ocean of bhakti, is called taranga-rangini, delighting in material facilities. (Madhurya-kadambini pages 15-18] quote by guest

Grounding stuff.

Good to read this again...thanks guest.

[Guest guest]

 

I think that the basic problem here is that the devotees don't like the word "rtvik" very much. Maybe Guruvani could get together with the other rtviks and form a GBC. Then perhaps if we could have enough influence they could agree that from this point on the "Rtivk Theory" could be hence forth be known as the "Chopstick Theory". This would go over very big in China where they have over one billion people. Since China is becoming the most influentional nation in the world, the Chop Stick Theory would dominate the devotee scene within one generation, its a sure thing. Wow, this post is making me very hungry for some vegetarian Chinese food. I even know how to use chopsticks! Vegetarian pot stickers anyone?

 

No mushrooms with my fried wice tank u vewy much.

[Guruvani]

 

The following is the six types of unsteady bhakti (anisthitha-bhakti) From Madhurya-kadambini by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura published by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

Utsaha-mayi: A brahmana child, having just begun study of the scriptures, thinks he has immediately become a learned scholar worthy of everyone's praise. Similarly, a person just beginning devotional service may have the audacity to think that he has mastered everything. This is called utsaha-mayi, or filled (puffed-up) with enthusiasm.

 

Ghana-tarala: The same child at times diligently engages in his studies, and yet at other times, due to inability to understand the schoolbooks or lack of real taste, is negligent. In the same way, a new devotee will sometimes practice the different forms of devotional service and at other times neglect them. Being sometimes diligent and at other times negligent, his endeavor is called ghana-tarala (condensed-dilute, thick-thin).

 

Vyudha-vikalpa: "Shall I just spend my life happily in family life, making my wife and children Krsna conscious and worshipping the Lord? Or should I give them all up and go to Vrndavana to perfect myself by engaging full time in hearing and chanting with no distractions? Shall I wait till the last stage, after enjoying all sorts of pleasures and I've finally understood that the whole material world is simply a forest fire of affliction? Or is it better that I renounce right now? In this way, the mind spends time vacillating between the life of renunciation and household life considering the different options. This is called vyudha-vikalpa, or extensive speculation.

 

Visaya-sangara: Seeing that material enjoyment is forcibly carrying him away and impairing his steadiness in serving Krsna, the devotee resolves to renounce his addictions and take shelter of the holy name. But many times his attempts at renunciation often end in enjoying what he's trying to renounce. This on-going battle with his desires for sense enjoyment from former habit, where he sometimes meets with victory and sometimes with defeat, is called visaya-sangara, or struggle with sense pleasure.

 

Niyamaksama: Then the devotee will resolve, "From today I will chant such and such number of rounds of japa and will pay so many obeisances. I'll also perform services for the devotees. I won't talk about anything except the Lord, and I'll give up all association with people who talk gossip." Though the devotee makes such resolutions every day, he is not always able to carry them out. This is called niyamaksama, or inability to follow rules. Visaya-sangara is the inability to give up sense enjoyment, while niyamaksama is the inability to improve his devotional service.

 

Taranga-rangini: Finally, it is well-known that the very nature of bhakti is to be attractive, thus many people become attracted to the devotee. And, as the old adage goes, "By the public's attraction one becomes wealthy." Bhakti produces much opportunity for material gain, worship, and position (labha, puja, pratistha). These are weeds around the creeper of bhakti. Seeking one's pleasure (ranga) amidst these weed-like facilities, which are but small waves (taranga) in the ocean of bhakti, is called taranga-rangini, delighting in material facilities. (Madhurya-kadambini pages 15-18]

I hope you'll excuse me for not reading that stuff by Narayan Maharaja.

The babajis told me to boycott Narayana Maharaja, so I am taking their advice.

 

Anything I have read from Narayana Maharaja has been like chewing on cardboard compared to the nectar taste of Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

somehow, there is a little sweetrice in the sand I am sure, but I haven't been able to taste it.

 

When all else fails, throw around some Sanskrit words like "guru tattva" and tell every body that "ritvik is not in the Vaishnava vocabulary.

 

After I heard Narayana Maharaja telling everyone that there no such thing as ritvik and that the word is not in the Sanskrit dictionary, I decided I wasn't going to listen to him anymore.

[Kulapavana]

 

I guess you weren't there in them days, but Bhavananda was one of the most charismatic preachers in ISKCON.

Devotees swooned over him.

He was a practicing devotee and an influential senior disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

I have heard many things that are quite contrary to that account, directly from people who witnessed the events, or were even part of them. His fondness for young boys never abated after joining the movement and according to several accounts he never followed the four regs for a period longer than a few weeks. Is he still running a male escort agency in Australia from his "headquarters" in Sridhama Mayapur? That is the word on the street.

 

and as to my forgiveness: I have nothing to forgive him. he needs to be forgiven by his victims and I'm not one of them. I never "swooned over him"...

[Guest guest]

The best form of defence is attack. Tommy Gouranga is right. We are all arguing over details while the whole world is going to hell. Do we give a damn? nope. We're more interested in jnana than compassionate missionary activity. Its easy to write off a devotees statement as Utsaha mayi etc, but the case remains. This is a movement of compassion. Not a movement of politics and bickering. This is Mayas best weapon for devotees in general, get them to all fight amongst themselves and completely forget that millions of people are suffering around us for lack of Krishna consciousness. So who is going out on books? Everyone artfully dodged that one, hehehe. Im going out Tommy, Im with you Prabhu!

[Guest guest]

What was Bhavananda doing in 1972? See for yourself:

 

imdb.com/name/nm0045603

 

Five years before he became an uttama-adhikari spiritual master, capable of delivering his disciples from the cycle of birth and death, these were the glorious pastimes of His Holiness.

[Nitai108]

Its funny as well how you assumed Tommy Gouranga must have been a young devotee! How do you know hes not a full time book distributor from the early eighties. I agree completely, if we are not doing anything to help people out there who are in ignorance then how can we claim we are even trying to be a devotee ourselves. Kripa sindhu bye eve cha. A devotee is full of compassion for the fallen conditioned souls. Prabhupada was non stop travelling and preaching. So are we going to just sit back, taking advantage of the hard work Prabhupada and his disciples put in so we actually came to Know about Krishna ourselves. Or are we going to really show we have any appreciation and gratitude for recieving this priceless matchless gift of Krishna consciuosness, and go out and give it to others. That is the real issue. Not he said, she said, and he said he didn't. Maya.

[Nitai108]

we have been out of the same Maya five minutes and we're pointing to others. and saying "just see how he is in Maya" ! this is Kannishta

[Nitai108]

What does Krishna say, Even though a devotee may commit the most abominable activity? still to be considered saintly. If thats Krishnas instruction, why we disobey? At least they tried to be a devotee, among millions, who even tries? To try and fall down is glorious. At least they joined and helped push the movement. that is never lost, no loss or diminuition. The worst devotee is better that the best Karmi.

[bija]

 

....Tommy Gouranga is right. We are all arguing over details while the whole world is going to hell. Do we give a damn? nope. We're more interested in jnana than compassionate missionary activity. Its easy to write off a devotees statement as Utsaha mayi etc, but the case remains. This is a movement of compassion. Not a movement of politics and bickering. This is Mayas best weapon for devotees in general, get them to all fight amongst themselves and completely forget that millions of people are suffering around us for lack of Krishna consciousness.... quote by guest

From a book I have been reading...thought it was beneficial for spiritual vision...

 

 

Look inside and find where a person

loves from. That's the reality,

not what they say.

 

All the best with your distribution Tommy Gouranga....just make sure you spread the name of Gauranga everywhere you go...in Navadwipa Dham Mahatmya Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says there is no hope for souls without the name of Gauranga. He says the reason why souls have not attained love for Krsna even after worshipping Sri Sri Radha Krsna for many births...is because of lack of taking shelter of the name of Gauraaaanga!!!

[bija]

 

The following is the six types of unsteady bhakti (anisthitha-bhakti) From Madhurya-kadambini by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura....quote by guest

 

Guruvani....have you read this book before? It is pure nectar. If you have not read it, please do find a copy you will love it.

[bija]

Here is a copy Madhurya- kadambini translated by Sarvabhavana dasa [ATTACH]1308[/ATTACH] opens with notepad

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Hari bol!

mk svct.txt

[Guest guest]

LOL!

 

Personally, I think the theories that ritviks put forth and 'porridge' would make a good combination! A porridge borne out of speculation with no basis in Sastra.

 

 

I think that the basic problem here is that the devotees don't like the word "rtvik" very much. Maybe Guruvani could get together with the other rtviks and form a GBC. Then perhaps if we could have enough influence they could agree that from this point on the "Rtivk Theory" could be hence forth be known as the "Chopstick Theory". This would go over very big in China where they have over one billion people. Since China is becoming the most influentional nation in the world, the Chop Stick Theory would dominate the devotee scene within one generation, its a sure thing. Wow, this post is making me very hungry for some vegetarian Chinese food. I even know how to use chopsticks! Vegetarian pot stickers anyone?

[Guest guest]

 

I think that the basic problem here is that the devotees don't like the word "rtvik" very much.

 

Pity, it's stated over 30 times in the Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada used the term on May 28th and July 9th 1977 in regard to initiations in the future, and TKG confirmed the appointment of ritviks in letters on July 10, July 11 and July 31, with Ramesvara confirming the same in his letter of July 21. Oh, almost forgot TKG's Pyramid House "SP only appointed ritviks" confession in 1980.

 

Still, some devotees just don't like the word "ritvik".

[theist]

 

it is incredibly hard for me to accept guys like Bhavananda as ever being even remotely near the "bhagavat" category (while Prabhupada was still here, let alone later), however losely defined

 

these ever changing ruber-like ritvik theories crack me up...

 

Funny in a dark sort of way, yet more tragic than anything. Those "appointed ritviks" took little time in having their own thrones built and climbed up on then as zonal gurus. They never called themselves ritviks. I hardly would consider associating with them as sadhu sanga. Frankly I would much rather associate with the humble pot cleaner or floor washer in one of those temples anyday. Better a sincere kanistha than a charleton guru.

[Guest guest]

 

But, then again, foregiveness is a brahmincal power that you obviously do not possess.

 

Quotes below is simply repeating Srila Prabhupada's statements. The fact that you do not appear to appreciate them is somehow a worrying sign.

 

"Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association."

(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness BBT 1973, Page 57 )

 

"There are two ways of association - by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence."

(CC, Antya 5 Conclusion )

 

"It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life."

(SB 3:31:48 )

 

"Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material condition."

(SB,1987 Edition, 7.7.1.)

 

"The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the vibrator is apparently absent."

(SB 2.9.8.)

 

"If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself. In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the disciple."

(CC 1975 Edition, Adi 1.35)

 

"He lives forever by his divine instructions, and the follower lives with him."

(SB 1962 Edition, Preface)

 

"The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence."

(SB 1987 Edition, 1.7.22)

 

Can you produce a statement from Srila Prabhupada that says:

 

"the statements in my books regarding the irrelevance of the physical presence of the spiritual master only apply to my initiated disciples..."

 

Many devotees at he present moment actually consider, the physical presence of the guru might be immaterial, but only after initiation.

However, this is speculation -AND: do we have a statement from sastra that says:

 

"the physical presence of the guru is only immaterial after the initiation ceremony?"

 

One might ask, then why did Srila Prabhupada go to New York and other cities, if the physical presence of a pure devotee Vaishnava Acharya was not required there to initiate and deliver disciples?

 

<b>The real question that should be answered is as follows:</b>

 

Why did Srila Prabhupada NOT attend scores of initiation ceremonies if his physical presence was absolutely required at the point of initiation as many Vaishnava scholars presently claim?

 

<b>Transmission of knowledge is the main constituent of the process of diksa, and that does not require the physical presence of the guru.</b>

[Guruvani]

 

Quotes below is simply repeating Srila Prabhupada's statements. The fact that you do not appear to appreciate them is somehow a worrying sign.

 

 

The formal diksha ceremony has some importance as Srila Prabhupada has said.

But, to me it's importance is not that it is some magic moment when the Maha-mantra is mystically transferred from the spiritual master to the disciple.

I believe that the Maha-mantra enters the heart before the formal initiation ceremony.

 

The formal initiation ceremony which DOES require the physical presence of the acharya OR his deputy, is a kind of certification or validation in a formal, public way which is mainly a process of continuing the parampara officially for preaching purposes.

 

The gayatri or brahminical initiation is important for creating and maintaining a priestly class of devotees to perform the Brahminical work of deity worship and performing marriages and all the other Brahminical work needed for a Daiva Varnashrama society.

 

So, formal initiation is part of advancement of human society, Daiva Varnashrama and temple worship of the Lord. It is not a magic moment when some mystical transaction takes place.

 

The mystical transmission of the Maha mantra happens whenever any Vaishnava gives that mantra to another person.

 

So, while it might be true that reception of vani is the REAL initiation, there is still value in the formal initiation and in the Brahminical initiation as well. Society needs Brahmans.

 

Without formal initiation there would be NO certified successors in the parampara and that would be a big problem in continuing the parampara within human society.

 

The ritvik system is a device that Srila Prabhupada instituted to carry on this formal initiation process in a way that would help maintain cohesion and equality in ISKCON so that the preaching work of the society would not be hampered by infighting, sectarianism and guru competition.

 

The GBC does not understand that.

They think that formal initiation is some magic moment when their neophyte gurus pass on the Mantra magically by their special authority.

 

So Vani is the life force of diksha, but vani alone is not enough to build a parampara, Daiva Varnashram or an acharya sampradaya.

Society needs formality and ritual.

It's part of the Vedic culture.

 

Love of God does not depend on any ritual or formality.

[Guruvani]

 

Funny in a dark sort of way, yet more tragic than anything. Those "appointed ritviks" took little time in having their own thrones built and climbed up on then as zonal gurus. They never called themselves ritviks. I hardly would consider associating with them as sadhu sanga. Frankly I would much rather associate with the humble pot cleaner or floor washer in one of those temples anyday. Better a sincere kanistha than a charleton guru.

 

For the most part I agree.

My statements were "theoretically" speaking, that was supposed to be the way it worked.

 

But, I was in ISKCON during tha time.

Some of the ISKCON gurus were as much victims as they were criminals.

There was feeling to try and keep the steamroller of ISKCON from coming to a stop or being interrupted.

All these men had MUCH influence, respect and power in ISKCON, so the mood was that they could just evolve into gurus and everybody would accept that and the mission would go on.

 

Obviously, it didn't turn out as as well as they had expected.

 

All these men were seen as very devoted, good preachers, intimate servants of Srila Prabhupada.

Now, everybody wants to say they were monsters who plundered the movement for their own prestige, but it certainly didn't appear that way back then.

They were the most charismatic and powerful senior devotees in ISKCON.

Gradually, all that soured and they became labeled as traitors to Srila Prabhupada and the society itself.

 

The zonal guru concept was actually just covered ritvikism.

In some way the zonal guru concept is better than the way they operate now.

Zonal gurus cannot be anything BUT ritviks, no matter how you label them.

[Guest guest]

"Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing." (SP Interview, 16/10/76, Chandigarh)

 

“Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination, that is initiation.” (SP Conversation from BTG #49 article “Search for the Divine”)

 

“The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there.” (SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68)

[Guruvani]

 

"Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing." (SP Interview, 16/10/76, Chandigarh)

 

“Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination, that is initiation.” (SP Conversation from BTG #49 article “Search for the Divine”)

 

“The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there.” (SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68)

 

You left out one part of one of those letters......

 

 

Now the next initiation will be performed as a ceremony officially, of course that ceremony has value because the name, Holy Name, will be delivered to the student from the disciplic succession, it has got value, but in spite of that, as you are going on chanting, please go on with this business sincerely and Krishna willing, I may be coming to you very soon.

 

Srila Prabhupada says that the formal initiation has value, because the Holy Name is being officially delivered to the disciple.

Officialness serves a purpose.

It has it's own value.

It is not without meaning.

[Guest guest]

"Officialness serves a purpose"

 

 

probably to instill faith in some one who would not have it on his own

[Guest guest]

but many of those people fall away, that's why he says:

 

"It is your determination, that is initiation"

[Guruvani]

 

"Officialness serves a purpose"

 

 

probably to instill faith in some one who would not have it on his own

 

What I believe is that the ritvik system can perform this formal process better than some so-called traditional system where you have gurus falling down right and left and creating so much disturbance to ISKCON.

 

In this way, the ritvik system is MUCH better than "traditional parampara" in the hands of neophytes that make a mess of everything.

 

Of course, Srila Prabhupada could see that, so he left ISKCON with a ritvik system in place and NEVER recalled his gayatri tape.

 

There is no prohibition from Srila Prabhupada that this gayatri tape cannot be used after his passing.

Without a prohibition, then it can still be used just as before.