Gurus Present, Initiations Real

[Guest guest]

Well one thing for sure is that this debate will rage on ad infinitum.

 

We can't deny that Srila Prabhupad was empowered saktavesh, and if we believe Srila Sridhara Maharaj He was the avesh of Nityananda Prabhu.

So if Christians can still to this day 2000 years later get some kind of Faith from the life and teachings of a person they believe to be Jesus Christ, and not just that, thousands of souls across a whole planet in different times throughout history can claim to have personal visitations, visions, and revelations of his person, whole nations have fought holy wars to defend his honor and ideology and unholy wars to enforce it on others. His following is fragmented into innumerable camps of tradition, new wave, born again and again sects and splinter groups of followers, for better or for worse.

It keeps reinventing itself to try to attract the hearts and souls of the everchanging aspirants in the everchanging times. Altho it may well help many to gain some direction if they are sincere, it is still not foolproof due to the inherent nature of humans either to interpret and distort the vani to suit their own ends. Or to just blindly follow without any deeper enquiry into the dynamic course of Truth as time and circumstance change. That is Jesus statement "many things I could reveal, but you are not ready for them"

and even if he revealed himself they may still do the same thing they did last time.

So if Srila Prabhupad can still visit various souls in dreams or revelation which many will confirm, then we can reasonably accept he has an ongoing interest in the development of this world where he practiced and preached.

I can't accept it is just an automatic recorded answering service that responds to calls of heartfelt prayers, by sending some holographic image of his smile to the receiver.

 

I can't profess to fully understand the mystical mechanics of chaitya guru, how guidance and continued support are transmitted to the hearts of disciples or siksyas from the transcendental world of Goloka while these saviors are simultaneously participating in the nitya lila pastimes of the Lord. It's obviously a very sophisticated form of transcendental technology.

 

It dawned on me while watching a 25 year old video of Siddhaswarupananda

on this site, that his preaching which is captured on video in a kind of time capsule, still continues to interest aspiring bhaktas even though the circumstances of his actual present day life may now be completely different in one sense.

So although what was... is no more, but in the minds of some it will always be forevermore.

A similar example could probably be given of a sanga of hundreds of devotees in Bali Indonesia I visit, who worship Srila Prabhupad, from young children to old men and women their dedication to Srila Prabhupad is really non-different from the original fervour and inspiration of many of his original diksa disciples, even though none of them have ever met him in the fresh. They worship an ideal perhaps even sentimentally, but that still appears to be tangible to them, it's the power of faith.

I can't dispute their affection and devotion is most praiseworthy, and I have to say that Prabhupad's presence can be felt in their sadhana. Yet they also respect and adore anyone who may have diksa connection to Srila Prabhupad or even those who have been in his presence.

 

So getting back to Nityananda Prabhu. We are told He is the very embodiment of chaita guru..... the expansion of the Lord and therefore acintya bhedha bhed. So somehow Prabhupad is fused into this program that responds to each and every heart of the living entities, in this world and others no doubt. Meaning he cares for the suffering world and many intuitively feel and recognize that.

 

Although I can't profess to know the vision of Srila Sridhara Maharaj, I can surmise that this is what he was alluding to in his own vision of his intimate friend Srila Swami Maharaj.

 

Even though I am his initiated disciple, I don't experience the same kind of concern from Srila Sridhara Maharaj for my material predicament as I do from Srila Prabhupad. Because of both their natures they transmit the currant of mercy in different ways. I know he has a different kind of sakta avesh that is completely other worldly and hopefully, as eternal sevite disciples we may become privy to that wonderful world via the exceptionally unique legacy of mercy and vision he very carefully left in place for this world, in a tangible form who we can even hug, relate to as a friend or guardian etc. We don't have to second guess the meaning of his instructions or anything, we can just make a phone call, or send an email, or take dharsan to have some light illuminate our queries and doubts, or love to comfort our alienation.

We are not romancing a philosophy we can relate to reality here and now via the presence of a living representitive. That doesn't mean we don't also have access to the Lord within our heart, to deal with our own everyday affairs.

It doesn't matter if we are advanced or neophyte every soul can benefit from the physical presence of the sadhu. One micro second in their company is considered more valuable than a thousand lifetimes of other association, or an imaginary God, guru or conception.

To me it's a little like the difference between having a cyber relationship or a face to face in the flesh relationship with someone, they are not the same.

 

We are really only 'babes in the woods' when it comes to these mahatma's intimate familiarity with divinity, so long as we continue to have faith that they all care for our eternal wellfare in different ways, we may see our way through those woods eventually.

[Sridas]

Excuse us. Forgot to sign into post 51. seeing as some are touchy about who is saying what.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

The gayatri or brahminical initiation is important for creating and maintaining a priestly class of devotees to perform the Brahminical work of deity worship and performing marriages and all the other Brahminical work needed for a Daiva Varnashrama society.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja explains that the gayatri mantra is there to help us in nama bhajan. The mantra "retires at liberation" but what is the Vaisnava definition of liberation? Muktir hitvanyatha rupam swarupena vyavathiti. To obtain darshan of our own eternal form and that of the Lord. And to be fixed in our eternal service relationship with the Lord. The mahamantra can give everything and the [gayatri] mantra is there to help. Srila Sridhar Maharaja states that, "only after one has reached a devoped stage can the mantra be conferred upon him." Why did Srila Prabhupada encourage his disciples to try to reach this stage and then confer second initiation upon them? I certainly doubt that the inner reason was to create and maintain a priestly class. Why keep giving all these external interpretations. Go back and read or listen to Srila Sridhar Maharaja's explaination of the Ramananda Samvada. Anyway he would often quote Na te viduh svarta gatim hi Visnu/durasyaya ye bahir ... and say "you must dive deep into reality". I hardly believe that our common obsession with the formal initiation issue is an example of diving deep into reality.

[theist]

 

For the most part I agree.

My statements were "theoretically" speaking, that was supposed to be the way it worked.

 

But, I was in ISKCON during tha time.

Some of the ISKCON gurus were as much victims as they were criminals.

There was feeling to try and keep the steamroller of ISKCON from coming to a stop or being interrupted.

All these men had MUCH influence, respect and power in ISKCON, so the mood was that they could just evolve into gurus and everybody would accept that and the mission would go on.

 

I was on the outskirts of Iskcon at that time. Whatever crimes they may have committed there is only one that I am concerned with and that is climbing on on their Romaharsa-sans and falsely proclaiming themselves THE REPRESENTATIVES OF GOD BY APPOINTMENT. I view that attack as a full frontal assault on the movement that Srila Prabhupada was so intensly pushing on. They took transcendence and put up a religion in it's place. (Now I am hearing Joni Mitchell in my head singing..."They took paradise and put up a parking lot. hehe) What greater crime is there?

 

 

Obviously, it didn't turn out as as well as they had expected.

Yes evolving into real guru is the process. The sure way to put an end to this natural progress of internal realization is to prematurely proclaim yourself as having achieved that humble status and accept money and worship under false pretenses. Krsna will never reward such conduct.

 

Acarya is self effulgent. To evolve in that way they should have remained in their service of running the oraganization, gone through the internal changes of becoming a pure lover of Krsna and then Krsna would have brought them disciples. But they didn't want to purely love Krsna and so tried to cheat the process instead. The effects are still there.

 

 

All these men were seen as very devoted, good preachers, intimate servants of Srila Prabhupada.

Yes SEEN that way. But who is doing the seeing. Their real motives became apparant on Srila Prabhupada's moving off planet.

 

Now, everybody wants to say they were monsters who plundered the movement for their own prestige, but it certainly didn't appear that way back then.

[bija]

 

Forget these guys Guruvani prabhu. It's long in the past and it is also an ever repeating story throughout history. Cheaters and the cheated. They have no relevance on our establishing a relationship with Krsna in our hearts. quote by Theist

Yes, Guruvani, I would also support Theist's kind advice. Move on.

If your faith is in a ritvik sytem pursue this with full conviction, as such is beneficial to faith. But please also honor others faith, as they also need it nurtured.

 

If you support ritvik, this is not so important an issue in our relationship standing. That which is in the heart is what matters. I wish you many blessings.

[suchandra]

 

Yes, Guruvani, I would also support Theist's kind advice. Move on.

If your faith is in a ritvik sytem pursue this with full conviction, as such is beneficial to faith. But please also honor others faith, as they also need it nurtured.

 

If you support ritvik, this is not so important an issue in our relationship standing. That which is in the heart is what matters. I wish you many blessings.

 

When Ravana stole Sita and Hanuman was troubled to bring her back to Lord Ramachandra would it have made sense if you told Hanumanji, well, move on prabhuji, this incident of Sita devi's kidnapping was in the past, why are you stuck in the past, are you still normal - look ahead be positive.

Dear Bija&co such advice really hurts!

[bija]

 

Dear Bija&co such advice really hurts!quote by suchandra

Could you please explain. I don't wish to be insensitive. From my own experience, we got to heal and keep moving. Nurture the heart, and forgive.

[theist]

suchandra, are you seeing the external of Iskcon as Prabhupada's Iskcon? I think it better to see the vani of Srila Prabhupada as the real Iskcon. The buildings the propertiy the funds can all be misused. But the true instructions of Srila Prabhupada will only liberate one into love for Krsna. You are his disciple I see Iskcon in you. It exists as the sincere wishing to please your Spiritual Master. Be a good honest and humble dispenser of what you have learned of the path of Bhakti to others and be the siksa guru Srila Prabhupada wants you to be. Is that not the essence of Iskcon? Does it not live within the sincere disciple? If you started your own preaching center in a barn and called it the Radha Krsna Temple and held kirtan, prasadam distribution, Gita class with a simple pictures of Srila Prabhupada,the pancha tattva, Radha Krsna and ran it according to the principles your spiritual master taught you....Is that not Iskcon in essence.

 

The names may change but if the essence is the same it doesn't matter what sign is over the door.

 

We also know Ravanna never touched the real Sita.

[theist]

sridas, post # 51, nice realizations, nice stream of consciousness running through your mind.

[Guruvani]

 

Yes, Guruvani, I would also support Theist's kind advice. Move on.

If your faith is in a ritvik sytem pursue this with full conviction, as such is beneficial to faith. But please also honor others faith, as they also need it nurtured.

 

If you support ritvik, this is not so important an issue in our relationship standing. That which is in the heart is what matters. I wish you many blessings.

 

As already alluded to in a previous post, MOVING ON and giving up the fight for ritvik in ISKCON would really spoil the fun for me.

I am like a Pitbull or steroids when it comes to dogging the ISKCON GBC to rectify their mistake and get it right.

 

I really look up to some of the leading ritvik devotees.

 

For example, Yashodanandan prabhu.

Even though he gave up sannyasa and took grhasta life, he never failed to chant his rounds and perform his very elaborate deity worship every day.

He actually followed all the regs as a householder.

Yashodananda prabhu is as serious as a heart attack about Krishna consciousness, though he decided he would rather take his stand from the grhasta platform.

There are MANY very respectful and dedicated devotees who are ritvik proponents.

I am nothing.

They are my hope and my inspiration.

Ritviks devotees number in the hundreds if not thousands.

I think you are being quite naive to just tell us all to "MOVE ON".

 

Why don't you MOVE ON from your pipe dream that a gang of neophytes can take over the Krishna consciousness movement by playing guru?

 

Sridhar Maharaja?

 

What has that got to do with ISKCON?

[bija]

Adieu! I have been advised by Gurudeva that forums can be full of offences to devotees. He has recommended that I walk away from such behaviour, as it is also an offence to listen to such conversations.

 

You see Guruvani I consider you, and all others, devotees, because of your seeking of Krsna. No matter what mistakes have been made in service. But one thing I will no longer do, is listen to such criticism as comes from your mouth.

 

It is difficult to walk away because I live in a reasonably isolated part of Australia. So this Audarya forum is my means for association. There is no other Hare Krsna devotee where I live.

 

I do not know why I am telling you this, because your tendency is to be callous in your responses. I hope you mature and realise such habits are not conducive to love.

 

You have placed this question to me...

 

 

Sridhara Maharaja?

What has this got to do with Iskcon? quote by Guruvani.

 

You are way off the ball here mate. I have no direct diksha link to either person or institution. But have developed friendship with devotees who find their joy and sustenance in such places. Srila Sridhara Maharaja is a beautiful beautiful saint. And my best friend is a faithful humble elderly mataji who has taken shelter in Iskcon for the last thirty years. One of the originals here. This is my connection and appreciation of both these groups.

 

Please forgive my abrupt nature in this post. But how can one peacefully chant the Lord's Name each day, while at the same time reading such conversations as has been going on here in the last weeks.

[Kulapavana]

be a "ritvik" if you like, but act like a Vaishnava and perform devotional service.

 

if all your energy goes into badmouthing devotees who do not share your views and whom you blame for "ruining everything", you are not just wasting your time, but more importantly you are hurting your guru's mission.

 

I judge things by the results. I do not see ritviks making any new devotees - just poisoning the minds of many new people with their trash-talking about current Iskcon gurus. On the other hand I see Iskcon devotees working hard on spreading the movement and making a lot of new devotees. I see Iskcon gurus helping new people, inspiring them to serve Krsna. The choice is pretty simple for me, regardless of any philosophical considerations.

 

in your mind you can cover these FACTS with all kinds of concoctions, but even a simple child can tell you which is better. have nice day and Hare Krsna my ritvik friends.