Who has actually been 100 % Authorized to be Guru in ISKCON???

[Guruvani]

 

TThe rtvik thing is basically a reaction to silly folks thinking that they are exalted souls and even more silly people buying into it.

I hear that kind of thing all the time....

the ritviks say there are no pure devotees,

the ritviks want to end the parampara,

the ritviks say Prabhupada had no qualified disciples etc.etc.

 

Actually, most "ritivks" only have ONE premise for their thinking:

The obvious order of Srila Prabhupada in his last days.

 

thats it, thats all.

 

None of us "ritviks" expected Srila Prabhupada to implement a post-samadhi ritvik system.

We see that according to his plans and his arrangements that he did.

we are just trying to accept that and surrender to that.

 

we have no AGENDA apart from the order of Srila Prabhupada when it comes to ISKCON.

 

We have no personal grudge against our guru Godbrothers.

We are only looking at how Srila Prabhupada made arrangements in his final days.

If he wasn't planning on leaving ISKCON with a ritvik system, it would have been much more logical to just leave the system he already had in place alone.

The changes he made were for the time after he was gone.

That was the whole premise of the GBC approaching him for resolutions to this issue and his naming of the 11 ritviks.

 

Why do devotees keep forgetng that?

 

Whether there are qualified disciples or not, is not the issue.

The issue is simply to execute the order of Srila Prabhupada as his last wish and his last words of direction for the future of ISKCON.

We are not judging who is qualified or who is not.

Individually, the traditional parampara concept is natural.

For ISKCON as an institution, then the ritvik system was the idea Srila Prabhupada left his disciples with.

 

After years of teaching that formal initiation is just a formality, it is not shocking that Srila Prabhupada would leave ISKCON with a ritvik system of formal initiation.

[Beggar]

 

The changes he made were for the time after he was gone.

That was the whole premise of the GBC approaching him for resolutions to this issue and his naming of the 11 ritviks.

 

I have heard that there is some record of Hamsadutta being added to the list but that there is absolutely no written or audio record of Bhavananda ever being added to the list by Srila Prabhupada. What do you know about this?

[Guest guest]

"Why do devotees keep forgetng that?"

 

Because the ritvik concept wasn't brought up untill 3 or 4 years after Prabhupada left, after many of those early "spiritual masters" fell down. That is why it is considered a "reaction". And it is based on one word "henceforth" in a letter written by Tamal Krishna, someone who would otherwise be seen as an enemy of "ritviks" and not accepted by them in any other matters.

[Guruvani]

 

"Why do devotees keep forgetng that?"

 

Because the ritvik concept wasn't brought up untill 3 or 4 years after Prabhupada left, after many of those early "spiritual masters" fell down. That is why it is considered a "reaction". And it is based on one word "henceforth" in a letter written by Tamal Krishna, someone who would otherwise be seen as an enemy of "ritviks" and not accepted by them in any other matters.

it is not based upon one word "henceforth".

Mainly, it is based upon the statements of Srila Prabhupada at that time Satsvarupa das Goswami was officialy sent before Srila Prabhupada on behalf of the GBC to find out HOW initiations would go on after his passing.

It was Srila Prabhupada's response that he would appoint ritivks as a reply to that inquiry.

That was not just some off the cuff question that Satsvarupa came up with.

He was there as the respresentative of the GBC to get Srila Prabhupada's defintiive word on how initiations would go on after his passing.

 

The fact is that the GBC went to Srila Prabhupada for his answer to that question of how things would go on after his passing.

They walked away with a ritvik system.

 

That is recorded fact.

Despite the wrangling and manipulation that took place in that conversation, the final result was that Srila Prabhupada ordered Tamal to write an official letter to send out to all temples presidents and GBC members that listed the 11 ritviks officially authorized by Srila Prabhupada.

 

The word "henceforth" was based upon the fact that Srila Prabhupada had already instructed to the GBC that the plan after his passing was for a ritvik system.

Tamal did not invent the word "henceforth".

 

to try and reduce it down to one word is a cheap shot.

[Guest guest]

"that the plan after his passing was for a ritvik system."

 

 

"after his passing" is a stretch from "henseforth"

[Guruvani]

 

"that the plan after his passing was for a ritvik system."

 

 

"after his passing" is a stretch from "henseforth"

Srila Prabhupada gave the list of ritviks in reply to the inquiry by the GBC how initiations would go on after he was passed away.

It wasn't the word "henceforth".

It was because Srila Prabhupada told the GBC rep that initiations would be conducted after he was gone by ritviks.

 

That part is on tape and is much more authentic than the letter.

Letters can be forged.

We have taped statements from Srila Prabhupada telling the GBC rep that inititiations would be conducted by ritviks after his passing.

The letter is consequential.

The best authority is the taped statement of Srila Prabhupada that many, many devotees have heard.

 

Don't try to reduce it down to that letter.

There is recorded statements from the mouth of Srila Prabhupada that confirms the ritvik system.

[Beggar]

Some senior Prabhupada disciples who were in Vrndavana during the fall of 1977 claim that there were more conversations about succession that they personally heard and that they remember a tape recorder in use at those times. Most likely someone, most likely the secretary destroyed these tapes. Maybe we can go to the secretary's "samadhi" and receive an answer about this.

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada made numerous remarks about how his disciples were to make their own disciples and for the ritviks benefit, some posts were made on this forum showing those quotes. But you ritviks keep forgetting that. If you accept only that which supports your cause, it will be impediment to finding the truth.

 

Also, the ritviks seem to have no strong philosophy, which is why you have to resort to distributing useless magazines called Back to Prabhupada.

 

 

Why do devotees keep forgetng that?

[Kulapavana]

 

There's much irony in the use of the titles, Srila - His Divine Grace, Sripad - His Holiness, and Prabhu - master or Lord. In one sense Phabhu is a very exalted title and was never used to refer to guru bhai and sisyas until the time of Srila Saraswati Thakur. It was reserved for Nityananda and Advaita "Prabhus". Have you ever heard, "don't call me Prabhu, I'm a Maharaja!" Very silly.

 

in their zeal to praise their gurus, many neophytes twist the siddhanta and tradition into silly pretzels, criticizing many senior Vaishnavas who dont share their contorted notions. guru misspeaks and his neophyte disciples rush to change the siddhanta and even shastras to accomodate the "pronouncement" of their all knowing, all perfect guru, who is never wrong and whose statements are beyond any critical inquiry...

 

in the end all you have is a personality cult, not a legitimate sampradaya.

[Guruvani]

 

Prabhupada made numerous remarks about how his disciples were to make their own disciples and for the ritviks benefit, some posts were made on this forum showing those quotes. But you ritviks keep forgetting that. If you accept only that which supports your cause, it will be impediment to finding the truth.

 

Also, the ritviks seem to have no strong philosophy, which is why you have to resort to distributing useless magazines called Back to Prabhupada.

 

But, as ISKCON evolved, there were many weaknesses and misgivings showing up in some of the ISKCON leaders and sannyasis.

Maybe Srila Prabhupada had to rethink some of the things he had said before as the weaknesses and tendencies of western devotees started to show up.

 

Surely, nobody should think that there should be a guru free-for-all in ISKCON as has been going on since the passing of Srila Prabhupada?

 

Fit gurus are rare. they are not a dime-a-dozen as the current GBC policy promotes.

[Guest guest]

So now the ritviks are claiming that Srila Prabhupada made an error? I don't believe that was the case. He knew perfectly well what he way saying. Please don't twist his words.

 

 

But, as ISKCON evolved, there were many weaknesses and misgivings showing up in some of the ISKCON leaders and sannyasis.

Maybe Srila Prabhupada had to rethink some of the things he had said before as the weaknesses and tendencies of western devotees started to show up.

 

Surely, nobody should think that there should be a guru free-for-all in ISKCON as has been going on since the passing of Srila Prabhupada?

 

Fit gurus are rare. they are not a dime-a-dozen as the current GBC policy promotes.

[Guruvani]

 

So now the ritviks are claiming that Srila Prabhupada made an error? I don't believe that was the case. He knew perfectly well what he way saying. Please don't twist his words.

 

so many sannaysis and disciples fell down.

was that the error of Srila Prabhupada?

 

It was not his error to give them benefit of the doubt.

[Kulapavana]

 

Fit gurus are rare. they are not a dime-a-dozen as the current GBC policy promotes.

 

if after 40 years of sincere practice of bhakti-yoga in accordance with acharya's instructions one is still not fit to become a guru then when?

 

and what is the value of such a process if after 40 years everyone is still "dime-a-dozen" guy? what happened to Krsna proclaiming in the Gita: "sa mahatma sudurlabha"?

 

it is people like you, who make this proces cheap and plastic. you ritviks trash people much worse than the cheerleaders of the "zonal acharya" era ever did. oh wait.... you ARE the same people! most of the ritviks I know used to ride the coats of the chosen few back then and were among their best cheerleaders.

[Guruvani]

 

 

it is people like you, who make this proces cheap and plastic. you ritviks trash people much worse than the cheerleaders of the "zonal acharya" era ever did. oh wait.... you ARE the same people! most of the ritviks I know used to ride the coats of the chosen few back then and were among their best cheerleaders.

 

You should take up writing fiction novels.

You have a viviid imagination.

[Guest guest]

When it comes to sheer imagination & speculation, nobody beats the ritviks

 

Just read the ritviks arguments and magazines like back to Prabhupada and you'll know what I mean!

 

 

You should take up writing fiction novels.

You have a viviid imagination.

[Guruvani]

 

When it comes to sheer imagination & speculation, nobody beats the ritviks

 

Just read the ritviks arguments and magazines like back to Prabhupada and you'll know what I mean!

 

the only place I find as much bitterness and negative feeling is in the anti-ritviks.

the anti-ritviks can be very vile and contempt.

 

The anti-ritivks rule ISKCON.

Why be so negative towards the losing party?

 

us ritviks are nothing...just voices in the wilderness howling at the moon!

[Kulapavana]

 

You should take up writing fiction novels.

You have a viviid imagination.

 

wow! next thing you will tell me is that you ritviks (including you personally) don't routinely trash devotees who practiced bhakti-yoga for 40 years. or that you folks were ritvik from day one...

 

and if I ever take to writing fiction you can bet I will make sure my plot makes sense and does not contradict itself all the time, as is your speciality.

 

feel free to comment on the substance of my arguments, not just practicing dark humour. again for your convenience:

 

---------------

if after 40 years of sincere practice of bhakti-yoga in accordance with acharya's instructions one is still not fit to become a guru then when? where do you think gurus come from? big storks drop them in diapers from Vaikuntha?

 

and what is the value of an acharya given process if after 40 years of practice everyone is still "dime-a-dozen" guy? what happened to Krsna proclaiming in the Gita: "sa mahatma sudurlabha"?

---------------

[Guruvani]

 

wow! next thing you will tell me is that you ritviks (including you personally) don't routinely trash devotees who practiced bhakti-yoga for 40 years. or that you folks were ritvik from day one...

 

and if I ever take to writing fiction you can bet I will make sure my plot makes sense and does not contradict itself all the time, as is your speciality.

 

feel free to comment on the substance of my arguments, not just practicing dark humour. again for your convenience:

 

---------------

if after 40 years of sincere practice of bhakti-yoga in accordance with acharya's instructions one is still not fit to become a guru then when? where do you think gurus come from? big storks drop them in diapers from Vaikuntha?

 

and what is the value of an acharya given process if after 40 years of practice everyone is still "dime-a-dozen" guy? what happened to Krsna proclaiming in the Gita: "sa mahatma sudurlabha"?

---------------

 

please present here any trashing of devotees I have done.

 

please don't include my criticism of the defunct bureaucracy, as there is nothing sacred about a defunct bureaucracy.

 

please show any devotee I have personally trashed on this forum.

 

I have disagree with many of them, including Narayana Maharaja, but disagreeing with someone is not "trashing" them.

 

I have expressed my lack of personal faith in some of them, but is that trashing them?

[Guruvani]

 

wow! next thing you will tell me is that you ritviks (including you personally) don't routinely trash devotees who practiced bhakti-yoga for 40 years. or that you folks were ritvik from day one...

 

and if I ever take to writing fiction you can bet I will make sure my plot makes sense and does not contradict itself all the time, as is your speciality.

 

feel free to comment on the substance of my arguments, not just practicing dark humour. again for your convenience:

 

---------------

if after 40 years of sincere practice of bhakti-yoga in accordance with acharya's instructions one is still not fit to become a guru then when? where do you think gurus come from? big storks drop them in diapers from Vaikuntha?

 

and what is the value of an acharya given process if after 40 years of practice everyone is still "dime-a-dozen" guy? what happened to Krsna proclaiming in the Gita: "sa mahatma sudurlabha"?

---------------

 

30 years of disobeying the spiritual master and trashing his institution will get you nowhere.

30 years of offending the acharya is not much to brag about.

[Guest guest]

from: FLAWS IN THE RITTVIK CONCOCTION

 

therealexplanation.org/article/flaws_concoct.html

 

"If no change meant the continuance of a rittvik process after Prabhupada's departure, why didn't he SPECIFICALLY mention that somewhere. By specific, we are referring to some mention that does not rely on a far-out interpretation of a cryptic utterance. There is certainly no mention of the rittvik concoction in the context of the above-mentioned quotes.

 

Just as an example, Prabhupada could have easily said: "Even if you do not become spiritual master, then continue initiating disciples on my behalf, like now, and they will continue to be my disciples, even after I die." But he never specifically said anything like that. The so-called appointment tape does not say that, although the rittviks try to wrangle out an interpretation favorable to their arrangement. It involves very convoluted and twisted conclusions along with dubious logic. It is anything but simple."

---------------

 

Quotes from Prabhupada:

 

"I wish that, in my absence, all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master."

 

"They are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master, next."

 

"Every student is expected to become acharya . . . I have given you sannyasa with the great hope, that, in my absence, you will preach the cult."

 

"Just adhere yourself to the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you become spiritual master. That's all. So, I hope that all of you men, women, boys, and girls become spiritual master and follow this principle."

 

" . . . it is distinct that, although he was a conditioned soul in his previous life, there was no impediment of his becoming the spiritual master. This law is applicable not only to the spiritual master, but to every living entity."

 

"Maybe, by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program."

 

"By 1975, all of those who have passed all of the above examinations will be specifically empowered to initiate and increase the number of the Krishna conscious population."

 

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."

 

"I am very much hopeful that my disciples, who are now participating today--even if I die--my movement will not stop. I am very much hopeful. Yes. All these nice boys and girls who have taken so seriously . . . You have to become spiritual masters."

[Kulapavana]

 

please present here any trashing of devotees I have done.

 

 

you engage in it wholesale on your own forum, down to photoshop editing of pictures of devotees to denigrate them as much as possible: http://www.bhaktiforums.com/

 

but even here on Audarya you lump EVERYBODY into the same stinky burlap bag, as evident from your posts on this page alone:

 

"30 years of disobeying the spiritual master and trashing his institution will get you nowhere.

30 years of offending the acharya is not much to brag about."

 

this is all you can offer as a response to my post? NOBODY tried to sincerely follow Prabhupada according to you? then he FAILED completely because he did not make a single real disciple!

 

do you realize how utterly ABSURD your comments are in this context?

 

it would be easy for me to give up arguing with people like you here, but I cant. so many new people come to this site only to be turned away by trash and bile people like you spew.

[Guest guest]

ROFL! I read some of the messages on that forum and it's safe to say, I' won't be visiting that website again anytime soon. I have to say though that I was amused by some of the utterly stupid posts!

 

 

you engage in it wholesale on your own forum, down to photoshop editing of pictures of devotees to denigrate them as much as possible: "bhaktiforums.com/"]bhaktiforums.com/

 

but even here on Audarya you lump EVERYBODY into the same stinky burlap bag, as evident from your posts on this page alone:

 

"30 years of disobeying the spiritual master and trashing his institution will get you nowhere.

30 years of offending the acharya is not much to brag about."

 

this is all you can offer as a response to my post? NOBODY tried to sincerely follow Prabhupada according to you? then he FAILED completely because he did not make a single real disciple!

 

do you realize how utterly ABSURD your comments are in this context?

 

it would be easy for me to give up arguing with people like you here, but I cant. so many new people come to this site only to be turned away by trash and bile people like you spew.

[Guruvani]

 

ROFL! I read some of the messages on that forum and it's safe to say, I' won't be visiting that website again anytime soon. I have to say though that I was amused by some of the utterly stupid posts!

 

hey, I don't think there is anything wrong with some ISKCON cartoons and poking some fun at the clowns.

 

I do that so that these prabhus can learn to be humble because being guru has pumped them up like hot-air balloons.

Up-up and away in my beautiful balloon.................

 

here I go making fun again....

[Guest guest]

By the way, it's called Bhakti forums but where's the discussion about Bhakti or philosophy? All I see is discussion about senior ISKCON sanyasis and who did what and why they were wrong.

 

I wouldn't recommend this website to anyone. It's just another Back to Prabhupada.

 

 

you engage in it wholesale on your own forum, down to photoshop editing of pictures of devotees to denigrate them as much as possible: bhaktiforums.com/"]bhaktiforums.com/

 

but even here on Audarya you lump EVERYBODY into the same stinky burlap bag, as evident from your posts on this page alone:

 

"30 years of disobeying the spiritual master and trashing his institution will get you nowhere.

30 years of offending the acharya is not much to brag about."

 

this is all you can offer as a response to my post? NOBODY tried to sincerely follow Prabhupada according to you? then he FAILED completely because he did not make a single real disciple!

 

do you realize how utterly ABSURD your comments are in this context?

 

it would be easy for me to give up arguing with people like you here, but I cant. so many new people come to this site only to be turned away by trash and bile people like you spew.

[Guest guest]

If you asked me, that website is just a waste of Bytes & bandwidth!

 

 

hey, I don't think there is anything wrong with some ISKCON cartoons and poking some fun at the clowns.

 

I do that so that these prabhus can learn to be humble because being guru has pumped them up like hot-air balloons.

Up-up and away in my beautiful balloon.................

 

here I go making fun again....