Who has actually been 100 % Authorized to be Guru in ISKCON???

[Guest guest]

Thank goodness for that.

 

 

The anti-ritivks rule ISKCON. us ritviks are nothing...just voices in the wilderness howling at the moon!

[Kulapavana]

in all fairness I must say that I respect Guruvani also because he has the guts to put a face and a real name behind his opinions. at least he does not hide behind no name "guest" IDs to attack his oponents.

 

I apologize to you if my attacks were too personal. on a person to person level I really respect all sincere devotees, however strongly I disagree with some of their views. please accept my humble obeisances. vanca kalpataru...

[krishnadasa]

Still Srila Prabhupada,though he left his material body he is stilla round taking care of it.......

 

 

 

 

Authorized to be Guru

 

 

Nov 28, BHUBANESWAR,Orissa, INDIA —

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja Darshan, Bhubaneswar, India - 11-24-89.

 

 

 

Devotee: Maharaja where did you take sannyasa?

 

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Vrndavana, yes when that Krishna Balarama temple opened on Rama Navami day, you see, that day. I met Srila Prabhupada first in Vrndavana. I took sannyasa in Vrndavana. That is his causeless mercy on me. I have no qualification. I am not such a worthy person, unworthy fellow but he (Srila Prabhupada) showered his mercy on me. When he whispered to me in this room he told me, “You have to accept disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?” He (Srila Prabhupada) told me that."

 

So, then people came, they sought initiation from me but, I was not allowed (by the GBC) to accept disciples at that time and some devotees felt disappointed and left and went to the Gaudiya Math and accepted a spiritual master from there. So I told in GBC that Prabhupada had told me this thing (to initiate my own men). They said, “What is proof ?” I then said, “Proof is myself, Srila Prabhupada told me in my ear. It’s not recorded on a machine, but recorded deep in my heart.” But in his first letter to me, Prabhupada has also mentioned this same thing. You have seen that first letter?

 

Disciple: We went through the letter books, its there.

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: I have those books, but I don’t know?. . . . but I have that letter, first letter. In that letter Prabhupada mentioned, “Under your leadership, under your leadership, under your leadership. . .” Three times he has mentioned this thing that this Bhubaneswar will be developed like that. I showed that letter in the GBC. I said, “This is the letter. If I won’t be a leader, then how can I do it?” Then they allowed and I told them emphatically, “If you may not allow, but I must carry out the order of my spiritual master, I must do it.” They were frightened. I was so strong. Then they finally allowed me.

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Yes, that is the process. Because I am obeying the orders of my spiritual master. I am collecting or training men for my spiritual master’s mission, do you understand? As my spiritual master (Srila Prabhupada) told me, “You must have your own disciples. You must train them, you must have your own men, otherwise how will you manage?” Why did he tell such thing? So disciples, as my disciple they are grand disciple of Prabhupada, do you understand? But I am collecting men for my spiritual master to fulfill his desire in his mission. So I say, this is quite logical saying, “I am accepting for my spiritual master. You are all his men, and my spiritual master is sending you to me, to get training from me. Under my guidance you should work. That is the process. Do you understand? This is the vaisnava philosophy and this is the humble way because vaisnava is humble.

[Guruvani]

 

in all fairness I must say that I respect Guruvani also because he has the guts to put a face and a real name behind his opinions. at least he does not hide behind no name "guest" IDs to attack his oponents.

 

I apologize to you if my attacks were too personal. on a person to person level I really respect all sincere devotees, however strongly I disagree with some of their views. please accept my humble obeisances. vanca kalpataru...

 

that's very kind of you.

but, I don't command respect, demand respect or expect respect.

I have assigned myself to the "whipping boy" position and I rather relish being the underdog.

I can't help myself.

I am a child of the ritvik generation of ISKCON and that is what i saw as how Srila Prabhupada has adapted the movement to such a large following.

 

The days of intimate apprenticeship disappeared with the broadcasting of the Sankirtan movement.

 

Actually, my idea is similar to the Christian idea.

I believe that if you accept Srila Prabhupada as your guru, then he will accept you as his disciple.

That was his contract with the whole world.

That is what is the meaning of "jagat-guru".

 

Jagat Guru is the guru of the entire world.

He is not the guru of a few disciples or a few groupies who loiter in his physical proximity seeking prestige and position.

 

Srila Prabhupada is the guru of the whole world.(jagat guru)

 

I am sorry if that concept offends others, but I am not going to give it up.

[Guruvani]

Gaura Govinda Swami

 

(Srila Prabhupada) showered his mercy on me. When he whispered to me in this room he told me, “You have to accept disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?” He (Srila Prabhupada) told me that."

 

Anybody can claim anything.

But, as Srila Prabhupada wrote in that famous letter to Mata Omkara

"if it is not in writing from me, then I did not say it. there is so much Prabhupada said that I dd not say".

 

We have that in writing.

Srila Prabhupada said if it is not in writing then we should not accept it.

[Guest guest]

these are "in writing" from him

 

 

Quotes from Prabhupada:

 

"I wish that, in my absence, all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master."

 

"They are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master, next."

 

"Every student is expected to become acharya . . . I have given you sannyasa with the great hope, that, in my absence, you will preach the cult."

 

"Just adhere yourself to the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you become spiritual master. That's all. So, I hope that all of you men, women, boys, and girls become spiritual master and follow this principle."

 

" . . . it is distinct that, although he was a conditioned soul in his previous life, there was no impediment of his becoming the spiritual master. This law is applicable not only to the spiritual master, but to every living entity."

 

"Maybe, by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program."

 

"By 1975, all of those who have passed all of the above examinations will be specifically empowered to initiate and increase the number of the Krishna conscious population."

 

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."

 

"I am very much hopeful that my disciples, who are now participating today--even if I die--my movement will not stop. I am very much hopeful. Yes. All these nice boys and girls who have taken so seriously . . . You have to become spiritual masters."

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada is the guru of the whole world.(jagat guru)

I am sorry if that concept offends others, but I am not going to give it up.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja would often talk about the absolute conception and the relative consideration. If you feel that Srila Prabhupada is the "guru of the whole world.(jagat guru)" then that is a very nice representation of guru nistha or firm faith in guru. But we have to take into account that others who are are disciples of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers will see that their guru was the most dear to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. We see this in senior disciples of Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Daiyita Madhava Maharaja and others. While doing this they all recognize the unique and amazing, unfathomable contribution of Srila Bhakti Vedanta Swami Prabhuapada. The type of "glories" that are indicated in the phrase, "All Glories to Srila Prabhupada" are infinite nor limited. There are plenty of glories to go around to all pure devotees.

[Guruvani]

 

these are "in writing" from him

 

 

Quotes from Prabhupada:

 

"I wish that, in my absence, all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master."

 

"They are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master, next."

 

"Every student is expected to become acharya . . . I have given you sannyasa with the great hope, that, in my absence, you will preach the cult."

 

"Just adhere yourself to the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you become spiritual master. That's all. So, I hope that all of you men, women, boys, and girls become spiritual master and follow this principle."

 

" . . . it is distinct that, although he was a conditioned soul in his previous life, there was no impediment of his becoming the spiritual master. This law is applicable not only to the spiritual master, but to every living entity."

 

"Maybe, by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program."

 

"By 1975, all of those who have passed all of the above examinations will be specifically empowered to initiate and increase the number of the Krishna conscious population."

 

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."

 

"I am very much hopeful that my disciples, who are now participating today--even if I die--my movement will not stop. I am very much hopeful. Yes. All these nice boys and girls who have taken so seriously . . . You have to become spiritual masters."

those are instructions for individual disciples.

no problem.

but, he ordered the GBC to conduct a ritvik system for ISKCON and they are not doing that.

 

sure, if the institution fails which it did and it will, then these instructions are valid.

For ISKCON as an institution, then Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to conduct a ritvik system.

The ritivk orders were GBC specific.

Traditional parampara is for individual disciples if the GBC fails in it's duty.

 

that's the way I see it.

 

If someone does not want ritvik diksha through the GBC, then they can take traditional diksha through any devotee they choose.

no problem.

there is room for everybody in ISKCON.

(at least there should be)

(but be careful if you are ritvik or some ISKCON goon might drag you out by the sikha and throw you out into the streets.

that is what they did to me for believing in Sridhar Maharaja.)

[Nitai108]

Jaya, thanks for sharing Krisna, nice quote from Gour Govinda Maharaja.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja would often talk about the absolute conception and the relative consideration. If you feel that Srila Prabhupada is the "guru of the whole world.(jagat guru)" then that is a very nice representation of guru nistha or firm faith in guru. But we have to take into account that others who are are disciples of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers will see that their guru was the most dear to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. We see this in senior disciples of Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Daiyita Madhava Maharaja and others. While doing this they all recognize the unique and amazing, unfathomable contribution of Srila Bhakti Vedanta Swami Prabhuapada. The type of "glories" that are indicated in the phrase, "All Glories to Srila Prabhupada" are infinite nor limited. There are plenty of glories to go around to all pure devotees.

Excuse me for being a little blunt, but Srila Prabhupada was guru of the whole world when his godbrothers were just bell-ringers in India.

All these other Godbrothers that became Jagat Guru after Srila Prabhupada did it riding the wake of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON ship.

 

Prabhupada was so great that he made Jagat Gurus out of many of his Godbrothers.

He created all these other Jagat Gurus with just the dust from his lotus feet.

 

Will the real Jagat Guru please stand-up?

 

[Beggar]

 

.... or some ISKCON goon might drag you out by the sikha and throw you out into the streets.

that is what they did to me for believing in Sridhar Maharaja.)

You must ask yourself why you are the only person (as far as I know) who believes in Srila Sridhar Maharaja and sumultaneously supports the Rtvik doctrine. I understand your logic and how you apply this to the succession in the official Sri Caityanya Saraswat Math, but why are you a true lone wolf in this regard? In a side point: Many consider that present day ISKCON has transformed into a "soft rtvik" postion as oppossed to the traditional full fledged rtvikism that you espouse. Interesting enough if you look at the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math of Govinda Maharaja you will see Srila Sridhar Maharaja's vani so stressed that indeed many of the present day followers are "soft ritviks" similiar to ISKCON. In other words although current SCSM preachers push Govinda Maharaja as acarya, the intellectual (few) disciples mostly read and emphasize Srila Sridhar Maharaja's books. In a way this supports your theory that GM is SM's rtvik. But the way Srila Sridhar Maharaja describes it, is that, "sometimes the Ganges is wide and sometimes narrow, yet it is still the Ganges". I never heard him define a guru of lower adhikar as a rtvik in any of his talks on his famous veranda. Consequently I have deep reservations about your theory.

[Guest guest]

you said: "For ISKCON as an institution, then Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to conduct a ritvik system."

 

This is only your interpretation of some unclear statements that no one tried to advance untill many years after many of the original fell. Present the statements (the "in writing") you use to come to your conclusion. You will see they are not as clear as what could have been said, so that there would be no confusion, if Prabhupada had wanted such a system after his departure.

 

from an earlier post:

 

Just as an example, Prabhupada could have easily said: "Even if you do not become spiritual master, then continue initiating disciples on my behalf, like now, and they will continue to be my disciples, even after I die." But he never specifically said anything like that. The so-called appointment tape does not say that, although the rittviks try to wrangle out an interpretation favorable to their arrangement. It involves very convoluted and twisted conclusions along with dubious logic. It is anything but simple."

[Guruvani]

Honestly, I feel that Srila Prabhupada is alive in that picture.

That pic gives off living vibrations.

It is not a picture of a dead guru, but of the living spiritual master.

 

Just look at it for a few minutes and you might feel that Srila Prabhupada is very much alive.

[Guruvani]

 

you said: "For ISKCON as an institution, then Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to conduct a ritvik system."

 

This is only your interpretation of some unclear statements that no one tried to advance untill many years after many of the original fell. Present the statements (the "in writing") you use to come to your conclusion. You will see they are not as clear as what could have been said, so that there would be no confusion, if Prabhupada had wanted such a system after his departure.

 

from an earlier post:

 

Just as an example, Prabhupada could have easily said: "Even if you do not become spiritual master, then continue initiating disciples on my behalf, like now, and they will continue to be my disciples, even after I die." But he never specifically said anything like that. The so-called appointment tape does not say that, although the rittviks try to wrangle out an interpretation favorable to their arrangement. It involves very convoluted and twisted conclusions along with dubious logic. It is anything but simple."

 

The GBC as a body sent Satsvarupa to Srila Prabhupada to ask what the GBC is to do after he is gone.

Srila Prabhupada instructed the rep of the GBC that he would appoint ritviks.

 

Was the GBC to be relegated to the dust bin as as these "gurus" came out in ISKCON?

Or, did the GBC have a role in the spiritual leadership of ISKCON?

 

The GBC had a role, as a governing body, to conduct an official ritvik system on behalf of the acharya.

 

That did not prohibit or exclude any natural relationships of guru and disciple that might come about as young devotees find great faith in other senior ISKCON leaders.

 

The GBC was appointed to conduct a ritvik system.

 

However, the compatibility of a multipicity of gurus in ISKCON with a ritvik system is questionable.

[Guest guest]

you said:

"The GBC as a body sent Satsvarupa to Srila Prabhupada to ask what the GBC is to do after he is gone.

Srila Prabhupada instructed the rep of the GBC that he would appoint ritviks."

-----------------------

but again these may be taken as your words, if you cannot produce them "in writing" (by Prabhupada) which is what you said you needed before you could accept that Gour Govinda Maharaj received the instructions that started this thread.

[Beggar]

 

Excuse me for being a little blunt, but Srila Prabhupada was guru of the whole world when his godbrothers were just bell-ringers in India.

All these other Godbrothers that became Jagat Guru after Srila Prabhupada did it riding the wake of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON ship.

 

Prabhupada was so great that he made Jagat Gurus out of many of his Godbrothers.

He created all these other Jagat Gurus with just the dust from his lotus feet.

 

Will the real Jagat Guru please stand-up?

 

First of all you are putting me in a corner. You are glorifying Srila Prabhupada in such a grand way that any idea that I give can be construed, " no, no, he is not so great." In a way its like patriotism. If you rap the flag around yourself then anyone who disagrees with you becomes unpatriotic. So you are only giving the absolute concept of guru and any relativity becomes a slight. That's why a guru will quarantine his neophyte disciples from his godbrothers. So that they will be able to see their guru as absolute without the challenge of seeing the plurality of guru, which they may be unable to harmonize in their spiritual infancy. The rtvik doctrine generally carries more ideas within than just the rtvik, final order theory. Rtvik supporters tend to be xenophobic, which means an irrational hatred of those who are different. Generally xenophobic means an irrational hatred of foriegners. But here I am comparing it to an irrational hatred of other branches of the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada coming from certain neophyte persons who are marginally followers of our Srila Prabhupada. I am not saying that you are like that. From my viewpoint you are very confused. It is persons like those that I am describing who were the most intransigent opponents of the concept of guru tattva given by Srila Sridhar Maharaja in Sri Guru and His Grace. This is like some deep madness.

[gHari]

Why would Srila Prabhupada mention that a disciple should not accept initiates when his master is still present on the planet? This is only one of many considerations that renders the ritvik conclusion meaningless, unintelligent, faulty logic - not to mention: brazenly offensive.

 

Like the archaeologists who study a few bones from here and there, we assume that our few recorded conversations comprise the full glory that flowed from the lips of Prabhupada. In our arrogance we have become the Darwins of schism.

 

It's over. Move on.

[Guruvani]

 

You must ask yourself why you are the only person (as far as I know) who believes in Srila Sridhar Maharaja and sumultaneously supports the Rtvik doctrine. I understand your logic and how you apply this to the succession in the official Sri Caityanya Saraswat Math, but why are you a true lone wolf in this regard? In a side point: Many consider that present day ISKCON has transformed into a "soft rtvik" postion as oppossed to the traditional full fledged rtvikism that you espouse. Interesting enough if you look at the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math of Govinda Maharaja you will see Srila Sridhar Maharaja's vani so stressed that indeed many of the present day followers are "soft ritviks" similiar to ISKCON. In other words although current SCSM preachers push Govinda Maharaja as acarya, the intellectual (few) disciples mostly read and emphasize Srila Sridhar Maharaja's books. In a way this supports your theory that GM is SM's rtvik. But the way Srila Sridhar Maharaja describes it, is that, "sometimes the Ganges is wide and sometimes narrow, yet it is still the Ganges". I never heard him define a guru of lower adhikar as a rtvik in any of his talks on his famous veranda. Consequently I have deep reservations about your theory.

 

I personally have never accused a ritvik representative (of which I am not one) of being anything less than an acharya.

 

IRM types like to relegate them to simple priests, but that is very narrow.

A true ritvik in the way Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja applied the term is not less or lower than a guru.

 

Sridhar Maharaja used the terms acharya and ritvik in the same breath.

 

A ritvik must be a transparent via-media of the acharya.

The ritvik is the most confidential servant of the acharya.

It is a very great and glorious position.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja certainly never intended to denigrate Govinda Maharaja by appointing him ritvik.

It is actually a good and proper concept for someone who inherits the Matha and mission of the acharya.

Sridhar Maharaja is the founder-acharya of Sri Caitanya Saraswata Matha.

He always was and he always will be.

His successor is properly his representative - his ritvik.

 

For a successor to now say "I am now the acharya of this mission" is not proper respect to the founder-acharya.

A humble disciple will say that he is only the representative of the acharya.

He will feel like that genuinley.

 

If he thinks "I am now the acharya and we are going to do things MY WAY", then he is lost.

[Beggar]

 

That's why a guru will quarantine his neophyte disciples from his godbrothers. So that they will be able to see their guru as absolute without the challenge of seeing the plurality of guru, which they may be unable to harmonize in their spiritual infancy. The rtvik doctrine generally carries more ideas within than just the rtvik, final order theory. Rtvik supporters tend to be xenophobic, which means an irrational hatred of those who are different.

In a footnote to my last post I also see an irrational hatred by some of Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja. Although he appeared to be in Post Manifest Lila ISKCON he was very, very different. The irony is that some of this negativity comes from those who are alleged followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Sri Guru and His Grace.

[krsna]

Quotes from Prabhupada:

"I wish that, in my absence, all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master.":pray:

"They are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master, next.":pray:

"Every student is expected to become acharya . . . I have given you sannyasa with the great hope, that, in my absence, you will preach the cult.":pray:

"Just adhere yourself to the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you become spiritual master. That's all. So, I hope that all of you men, women, boys, and girls become spiritual master and follow this principle.":pray:

" . . . it is distinct that, although he was a conditioned soul in his previous life, there was no impediment of his becoming the spiritual master. This law is applicable not only to the spiritual master, but to every living entity.":pray:

"Maybe, by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program.":pray:

"By 1975, all of those who have passed all of the above examinations will be specifically empowered to initiate and increase the number of the Krishna conscious population.":pray:

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . .":pray:

"I am very much hopeful that my disciples, who are now participating today--even if I die--my movement will not stop. I am very much hopeful. Yes. All these nice boys and girls who have taken so seriously . . . You have to become spiritual masters."

[Guruvani]

 

you said:

"The GBC as a body sent Satsvarupa to Srila Prabhupada to ask what the GBC is to do after he is gone.

Srila Prabhupada instructed the rep of the GBC that he would appoint ritviks."

-----------------------

but again these may be taken as your words, if you cannot produce them "in writing" (by Prabhupada) which is what you said you needed before you could accept that Gour Govinda Maharaj received the instructions that started this thread.

 

May 28, 1977 Vridavan, India

Krsna-Balarama Temple

 

 

 

Satsvarupa Goswami:

Then our next question concerns initiations in the future,

particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how

first and second initiation(s) would be conducted?

Srila Prabhupada:

Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up

I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya(s).

Tamal Krsna Goswami:

Is that called ritvik acarya?

Srila Prabhupada:

"ritvik. Yes".

 

When Satsvarupa says "OUR next question" he is asking on behalf of the GBC who had dispatched him to approach Srila Prabhupada for instructions on what the GBC should do about initiations after he was gone.

As for years the GBC were performing ritvik initiation in ISKCON under the secretary to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I know from senior sannyasis and GBC members who I personally heard narrating this event say that Satsvarupa was asking officially on behalf of the GBC that day.

 

It was May 28, 1977 when this event occurred at Krishna-Balaram Mandir.

It is recorded history and most all senior devotees can verify this event.

 

Back in that time, the GBC was all powerful in ISKCON and they needed to know what their position would be after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

 

In a footnote to my last post I also see an irrational hatred by some of Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja. Although he appeared to be in Post Manifest Lila ISKCON he was very, very different. The irony is that some of this negativity comes from those who are alleged followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Sri Guru and His Grace.

 

It appears that you are confusing Gaura Govinda Swami, the disciple of Srila Prabhupada with Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja who was the leading disciple of Sridhar Maharaja.

[Beggar]

 

It appears that you are confusing Gaura Govinda Swami, the disciple of Srila Prabhupada with Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja who was the leading disciple of Sridhar Maharaja.

One was a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and one is a disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. So no confusion. Slow down and reread.

[Guruvani]

 

One was a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and one is a disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. So no confusion. Slow down and reread.

 

I didn't mean to say that you are confusing them, but that it APPEARS you were confusing them.

[Guruvani]

 

Back in that time, the GBC was all powerful in ISKCON and they needed to know what their position would be after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

In fact, the GBC men were actually more powerful than sannyasis, unless the GBC happened to be a sannyasi.

The GBC had ritvik power back then and a non-GBC usually did NOT.

The GBC men chanted on beads for initiation.

So, the GBC had a measure of spiritual authority as well as managerial authority.

 

As far as societal authority and clout, the GBC was more powerful than the sannyasis.