Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

[Guest guest]

Posted by Yaduraja on Nov 28, 2006:

 

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP!

You claim:

 

> The guru must be present (incarnated) on this planet, because otherwise it

> would not be possible to go to him as Srila Prabhupada instructed:

>

> "Krsna is the first spiritual master, and when we become more interested,

> then we have to go to a physical spiritual master." (Lecture on Bg 4.34,

> Aug 14, 1966)

 

Your quote does not match your claim. The quote does not say that ‘to go to

a physical spiritual master’ he must be present on the same planet. It

cannot be essential to ‘go to’ the physical body of the guru since many of

Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciples never met him.

 

Furthermore, Srila Prabhupada is a physical spiritual master since we both

agree he remains in this material universe until all his disciples are

delivered. He never taught that ‘going to him’ meant approaching his

physical body, but rather by following his instructions. The following

proves your understanding is wrong:

 

> Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places.

> Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple

> wants. A Spiritual Master is the principle, not the body. Just like a

> television can be seen in thousands of places by the principle of relay

> monitoring. SPL 28th May 68

>

> Physical presence is immaterial.

> (Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

>

> But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking

> of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not

> together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only

> with this spiritual connection. (Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69 )

>

> So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence.

> That is real association.

> (Lectures SB, 68/08/18 )

>

> Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association

> by vibration not physical presence. That is real association.

> (Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57 )

>

> Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

> (CC, Antya 5 Conclusion )

>

> Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

> (Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75 )

>

> I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not

> physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.

> (Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77 )

>

> It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons

> engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic

> problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to

> associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by

> understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

> (SB 3:31:48 )

>

> I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent.

> (Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67 )

>

> Paramananda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila

> Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always

> meditating on your instructions.

> Srila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence

> is not important.

> (Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

>

> You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why

> do you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are

> helping my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are

> always thinking of me . That is real association.

> (Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69 )

>

> As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical

> presence. (Letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74 )

>

> 'Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual

> Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So

> continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your

> spiritual progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present

> before you, still you will be able to execute all spiritual duties in the

> matter of Krsna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles.

> (Letter to Subala, 29/9/67 )

>

> So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be

> accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have

> heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.

> (General lectures, 69/01/13 )

>

> Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta

> Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To

> serve master's word is more important than to serve physically.

> (Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77 )

>

> I went to your country for spreading this information of Krsna

> Consciousness and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not

> physically present there but spiritually I am always with you.

> (Letter to Nandarani, Krsna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67 )

>

> We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is

> physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all

> the same.

> (Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70 )

>

> I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in

> his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master's

> word is more important than to serve him physically. (Letter to

> Syamasundara, 19/7/70 )

>

> Personal association is not so important as association through serving.

> (Letter to Satyadhana, 20/2/72)

>

> Vani is more important than vapuh.

> (Letter to Tusta Krishna Das, 14/12/72)

>

> Yes I am glad that your centre is doing so well and all the devotees are

> now appreciating the presence of their spiritual master by following his

> instructions, although he is no longer present. This is the right spirit.

> (Letter to Karandhara, 13/9/70)

>

> The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the

> suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can

> extinguish the fire of material existence.

> (SB(1987 Ed) 1.7.22)

>

> So we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krsna or

> Spiritual Master. Never think that I am absent from you, presence by

> message (or hearing) is the real touch.

> (Letter to students, August 1967)

>

> Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material

> condition. (SB (1987)Ed) 7.7.1.)

>

> The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the

> vibrator is apparently absent. (SB 2.9.8.)

>

> If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee

> should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference

> between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master

> himself. In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride

> of the disciple.

> (CC(1975 Ed) Adi 1.35)

 

You have not argued that Srila Prabhupada's use of the phrase 'physical

presence' is fuzzy, so just take it I accept his definition that you seem

very happy with. It is foolish and quite demoniac to continually argue that

we need to ‘go to’ the physical body of the guru when the guru himself says

this is not necessary.

 

Best wishes

Ys

yadu