Guest guest Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 OM NAMAH SIVAYA i know i am coming in on the middle of this so please forgive me if my questions are misplaced. is light not also eternal? is a loss of light really possible? does the sun stop shining when covered by the clouds? my experience has been Love displaces desires. Shree Maa says simply, "Be Love." Love will overcome all obstacles. don't you think everyone wishes to progress rapidly on the spiritual path? and who is the doer here anyway? do our wishes really matter or is it up to Her? A Great Master has said that self-effort and grace are interdependent. which means to me, we must put forth effort and Her Grace determines the fruits of that effort. which also means we are on Her time. and if time is eternal, what exactly is "quickly"? i think it was a quote from Amma i read recently that said, "We are not human beings sent to have spiritual experiences. We are spiritual beings sent to have human experiences." that to me is like the saying it is not the trophy won that counts, but rather the race run. we had best enjoy the race, it will be over soon enough. just Be Love. below are a couple of quotes i read recently from Swami Sivananda that i found meaningful and helpful. "There is no such thing as sin. Sin is only a mistake; it is a mental creation. The baby soul must commit some mistakes during the process of evolution. Mistakes are your best teachers. Think, "I am pure atman", and the idea of sin will be blown in the air." "A worldly man has Abhimana for his wealth and position. He has great Moha for his children and wife. But a Sannyasi or Yogi has great spiritual and moral pride. He thinks: "I am superior to a householder. I am a great Yogi. I can meditate for 12 hours. I possess great purity, renunciation and dispassion." The Abhimana of a Sannyasi is more dangerous and powerful than the Abhimana of a worldly man, and so more difficult for eradication." JAI MA , "ty_maa" <dsjames wrote: > > > Dear Chris, > > Thought is the flywheel which drives desire. A single thought is > attended with a rather low-level energy field. As-and if-that thought > is repeated, the energy level ramps up in direct proportion. > > We feel that energy level as intensity of desire. > > A desire which seems to be beyond control-a compulsion-is attended with > machinegun-like repetitions of the origional thought. > > The only way to back out of a very strong desire which one has come > understand is not in his best interest, is to fast from that thought > without acting on the desire: one nibble less every so often, then > another nibble less, until the thought is reduced, and the > correspondiing desire quiets down. > > The path of "satisfying the desire with discrimination" is also a way > (most) often used. But it involves loss of time, loss of Light, and > (sometimes) loss of "face". > > Time is Eternal; it is a matter of how rapidly one wishes to progress in > spiritual life. > > Most Respectfully, > > Tanmaya > > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Y'all, > > > > There is one more thing about this verse, about the practice of > > discrimination in relation to our desires, that I feel will be > > helpful, before the topic closes. > > > > So far we have been looking at this from the perspective of using our > > discrimination to stop our desires as they begin to manifest, before > > we act on them. This is Swamiji's main focus in his commentary, and > > this is the goal. But it is difficult to achieve such a strong > > discrimination when a desire already has a strong hold on our minds, > > when the mind is already saying "Yes, let me enjoy; let me express > that." > > > > When the pull is very strong, we have two choices. We can deny the > > desire, and stuff it, or we can just give-in and "enjoy". > > > > Denial is a part of the tapas of spiritual life, but too much denial > > can warp the mind and personality. It is not always easy, for me at > > least, to understand the difference between proper denial and > stuffing. > > > > In the normal progress of life discrimination of desires occurs as a > > matter of course, over time and with experience. If your desire is to > > touch the beautiful, warm fire, it is not long at all before that > > desire is gone. It only requires the sure connection between desire > > and a result you find painful, as Swamiji has pointed out. > > > > With desires involving more complex relationships between the actions > > and the results, it can take a very long time indeed (lifetimes) > > before we finally learn. But it need not. If we find ourselves with a > > strong desire and we don't want to deny it, we can choose the middle > > ground. We can consciously choose to satisfy it - with discrimination. > > > > Satisfying a desire with discrimination includes all of the things > > Swamiji mentioned in his commentary, but instead of before the desire > > is fulfilled, as a means to stop it, the practice is done while the > > desire is being fulfilled. > > > > This is not my own idea. It is from the Upanishads (though I cannot > > remember where). Actually, I think this very sutra includes the idea > > of this practice in its statement. The sutra could have stated, "By > > satisfying or denying desire...", but instead said, "The fruit of the > > attempt to satisfy desire...", which includes the attempt to satisfy > > first, but also implicitly includes denial. > > > > The advantage to this is that with some desires the confusion they > > engender is too strong to break through. It's too hard to get the > > clarity to see the desire and its results clearly, dispassionately. > > Practicing discrimination while you fulfill your desire can help you > > see all the subtle thoughts and feelings, all the psychological > > "hooks", that make the desire so appealing, and can help you firmly > > connect the results of fulfillment to your current spiritual state > > (how do I feel; where is God in this; what happens now). > > > > The key, of course, is your intention not merely to enjoy, and so get > > lost in the desire, but to focus on your ultimate goal, and on > > obtaining the light to be master of the desire, not its slave. So you > > need to watch, carefully, dispassionately, and question, mercilessly, > > and when you perceive some truth, hold on to it tenaciously. As > > Swamiji wrote, "Follow events through their logical sequences to their > > ultimate conclusion and what will you get? Will [does] this action > > produce pleasure [and of what quality]? Or will the pleasure be so > > transient and the pain so great that the reward hardly justifies the > > price?...If we want knowledge, then we will look at our process very > > clearly and analyze step by step what we propose to get...Define the > > necessity for this action. Don't just try to rationalize it. Define > > it. Look deeply at the consequences..." (p.36 The Guru and the > Goddess). > > > > Obviously some desires are too unthinkable to even contemplate > > fulfilling, even in this manner. Some desires, too, will prove so > > stubborn that light will dawn only slowly and with repeated practice. > > But until you can catch, examine, and burn a desire without action, > > this is an effective way to bring light into the darkness. > > > > Jai Maa! > > Chris > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 , "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us wrote: > > OM NAMAH SIVAYA > > i know i am coming in on the middle of this so please forgive me if my > questions are misplaced. is light not also eternal? is a loss of > light really possible? does the sun stop shining when covered by the > clouds? my experience has been Love displaces desires. Shree Maa > says simply, "Be Love." Love will overcome all obstacles. don't you > think everyone wishes to progress rapidly on the spiritual path? and > who is the doer here anyway? do our wishes really matter or is it up > to Her? A Great Master has said that self-effort and grace are > interdependent. which means to me, we must put forth effort and Her > Grace determines the fruits of that effort. which also means we are > on Her time. and if time is eternal, what exactly is "quickly"? > > i think it was a quote from Amma i read recently that said, "We are > not human beings sent to have spiritual experiences. We are spiritual > beings sent to have human experiences." that to me is like the saying > it is not the trophy won that counts, but rather the race run. we had > best enjoy the race, it will be over soon enough. just Be Love. > > below are a couple of quotes i read recently from Swami Sivananda that > i found meaningful and helpful. > > "There is no such thing as sin. Sin is only a mistake; it is a mental > creation. The baby soul must commit some mistakes during the process > of evolution. Mistakes are your best teachers. Think, "I am pure > atman", and the idea of sin will be blown in the air." > > "A worldly man has Abhimana for his wealth and position. He has > great Moha for his children and wife. But a Sannyasi or Yogi has > great spiritual and moral pride. He thinks: "I am superior to a > householder. I am a great Yogi. I can meditate for 12 hours. I > possess great purity, renunciation and dispassion." The Abhimana of a > Sannyasi is more dangerous and powerful than the Abhimana of a > worldly man, and so more difficult for eradication." > > JAI MA > > > , "ty_maa" dsjames@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Chris, > > > > Thought is the flywheel which drives desire. A single thought is > > attended with a rather low-level energy field. As-and if-that thought > > is repeated, the energy level ramps up in direct proportion. > > > > We feel that energy level as intensity of desire. > > > > A desire which seems to be beyond control-a compulsion-is attended with > > machinegun-like repetitions of the origional thought. > > > > The only way to back out of a very strong desire which one has come > > understand is not in his best interest, is to fast from that thought > > without acting on the desire: one nibble less every so often, then > > another nibble less, until the thought is reduced, and the > > correspondiing desire quiets down. > > > > The path of "satisfying the desire with discrimination" is also a way > > (most) often used. But it involves loss of time, loss of Light, and > > (sometimes) loss of "face". > > > > Time is Eternal; it is a matter of how rapidly one wishes to progress in > > spiritual life. > > > > Most Respectfully, > > > > Tanmaya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Y'all, > > > > > > There is one more thing about this verse, about the practice of > > > discrimination in relation to our desires, that I feel will be > > > helpful, before the topic closes. > > > > > > So far we have been looking at this from the perspective of using our > > > discrimination to stop our desires as they begin to manifest, before > > > we act on them. This is Swamiji's main focus in his commentary, and > > > this is the goal. But it is difficult to achieve such a strong > > > discrimination when a desire already has a strong hold on our minds, > > > when the mind is already saying "Yes, let me enjoy; let me express > > that." > > > > > > When the pull is very strong, we have two choices. We can deny the > > > desire, and stuff it, or we can just give-in and "enjoy". > > > > > > Denial is a part of the tapas of spiritual life, but too much denial > > > can warp the mind and personality. It is not always easy, for me at > > > least, to understand the difference between proper denial and > > stuffing. > > > > > > In the normal progress of life discrimination of desires occurs as a > > > matter of course, over time and with experience. If your desire is to > > > touch the beautiful, warm fire, it is not long at all before that > > > desire is gone. It only requires the sure connection between desire > > > and a result you find painful, as Swamiji has pointed out. > > > > > > With desires involving more complex relationships between the actions > > > and the results, it can take a very long time indeed (lifetimes) > > > before we finally learn. But it need not. If we find ourselves with a > > > strong desire and we don't want to deny it, we can choose the middle > > > ground. We can consciously choose to satisfy it - with discrimination. > > > > > > Satisfying a desire with discrimination includes all of the things > > > Swamiji mentioned in his commentary, but instead of before the desire > > > is fulfilled, as a means to stop it, the practice is done while the > > > desire is being fulfilled. > > > > > > This is not my own idea. It is from the Upanishads (though I cannot > > > remember where). Actually, I think this very sutra includes the idea > > > of this practice in its statement. The sutra could have stated, "By > > > satisfying or denying desire...", but instead said, "The fruit of the > > > attempt to satisfy desire...", which includes the attempt to satisfy > > > first, but also implicitly includes denial. > > > > > > The advantage to this is that with some desires the confusion they > > > engender is too strong to break through. It's too hard to get the > > > clarity to see the desire and its results clearly, dispassionately. > > > Practicing discrimination while you fulfill your desire can help you > > > see all the subtle thoughts and feelings, all the psychological > > > "hooks", that make the desire so appealing, and can help you firmly > > > connect the results of fulfillment to your current spiritual state > > > (how do I feel; where is God in this; what happens now). > > > > > > The key, of course, is your intention not merely to enjoy, and so get > > > lost in the desire, but to focus on your ultimate goal, and on > > > obtaining the light to be master of the desire, not its slave. So you > > > need to watch, carefully, dispassionately, and question, mercilessly, > > > and when you perceive some truth, hold on to it tenaciously. As > > > Swamiji wrote, "Follow events through their logical sequences to their > > > ultimate conclusion and what will you get? Will [does] this action > > > produce pleasure [and of what quality]? Or will the pleasure be so > > > transient and the pain so great that the reward hardly justifies the > > > price?...If we want knowledge, then we will look at our process very > > > clearly and analyze step by step what we propose to get...Define the > > > necessity for this action. Don't just try to rationalize it. Define > > > it. Look deeply at the consequences..." (p.36 The Guru and the > > Goddess). > > > > > > Obviously some desires are too unthinkable to even contemplate > > > fulfilling, even in this manner. Some desires, too, will prove so > > > stubborn that light will dawn only slowly and with repeated practice. > > > But until you can catch, examine, and burn a desire without action, > > > this is an effective way to bring light into the darkness. > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > Chris > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Dear friend, I tried twice to answer your post, but neither made it through cyberspace. There have been problems with my laptop; I'm now on a different browser, so this is a test. Thank you for your comments. I appreciate your viewpoint entirely. I write from different viewpoints, all of which are real for me, though not everyone will resonate with everything I say. And there is no need to. Perfection will come when each is a sect unto themselve. Respectfully, Tanmaya , "ty_maa" <dsjames wrote: > > > , "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us@> > wrote: > > > > OM NAMAH SIVAYA > > > > i know i am coming in on the middle of this so please forgive me if my > > questions are misplaced. is light not also eternal? is a loss of > > light really possible? does the sun stop shining when covered by the > > clouds? my experience has been Love displaces desires. Shree Maa > > says simply, "Be Love." Love will overcome all obstacles. don't you > > think everyone wishes to progress rapidly on the spiritual path? and > > who is the doer here anyway? do our wishes really matter or is it up > > to Her? A Great Master has said that self-effort and grace are > > interdependent. which means to me, we must put forth effort and Her > > Grace determines the fruits of that effort. which also means we are > > on Her time. and if time is eternal, what exactly is "quickly"? > > > > i think it was a quote from Amma i read recently that said, "We are > > not human beings sent to have spiritual experiences. We are spiritual > > beings sent to have human experiences." that to me is like the saying > > it is not the trophy won that counts, but rather the race run. we had > > best enjoy the race, it will be over soon enough. just Be Love. > > > > below are a couple of quotes i read recently from Swami Sivananda that > > i found meaningful and helpful. > > > > "There is no such thing as sin. Sin is only a mistake; it is a mental > > creation. The baby soul must commit some mistakes during the process > > of evolution. Mistakes are your best teachers. Think, "I am pure > > atman", and the idea of sin will be blown in the air." > > > > "A worldly man has Abhimana for his wealth and position. He has > > great Moha for his children and wife. But a Sannyasi or Yogi has > > great spiritual and moral pride. He thinks: "I am superior to a > > householder. I am a great Yogi. I can meditate for 12 hours. I > > possess great purity, renunciation and dispassion." The Abhimana of a > > Sannyasi is more dangerous and powerful than the Abhimana of a > > worldly man, and so more difficult for eradication." > > > > JAI MA > > > > > > , "ty_maa" dsjames@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Chris, > > > > > > Thought is the flywheel which drives desire. A single thought is > > > attended with a rather low-level energy field. As-and if-that > thought > > > is repeated, the energy level ramps up in direct proportion. > > > > > > We feel that energy level as intensity of desire. > > > > > > A desire which seems to be beyond control-a compulsion-is attended > with > > > machinegun-like repetitions of the origional thought. > > > > > > The only way to back out of a very strong desire which one has come > > > understand is not in his best interest, is to fast from that thought > > > without acting on the desire: one nibble less every so often, then > > > another nibble less, until the thought is reduced, and the > > > correspondiing desire quiets down. > > > > > > The path of "satisfying the desire with discrimination" is also a > way > > > (most) often used. But it involves loss of time, loss of Light, and > > > (sometimes) loss of "face". > > > > > > Time is Eternal; it is a matter of how rapidly one wishes to > progress in > > > spiritual life. > > > > > > Most Respectfully, > > > > > > Tanmaya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" > <chriskirner1956@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Y'all, > > > > > > > > There is one more thing about this verse, about the practice of > > > > discrimination in relation to our desires, that I feel will be > > > > helpful, before the topic closes. > > > > > > > > So far we have been looking at this from the perspective of using > our > > > > discrimination to stop our desires as they begin to manifest, > before > > > > we act on them. This is Swamiji's main focus in his commentary, > and > > > > this is the goal. But it is difficult to achieve such a strong > > > > discrimination when a desire already has a strong hold on our > minds, > > > > when the mind is already saying "Yes, let me enjoy; let me express > > > that." > > > > > > > > When the pull is very strong, we have two choices. We can deny the > > > > desire, and stuff it, or we can just give-in and "enjoy". > > > > > > > > Denial is a part of the tapas of spiritual life, but too much > denial > > > > can warp the mind and personality. It is not always easy, for me > at > > > > least, to understand the difference between proper denial and > > > stuffing. > > > > > > > > In the normal progress of life discrimination of desires occurs as > a > > > > matter of course, over time and with experience. If your desire is > to > > > > touch the beautiful, warm fire, it is not long at all before that > > > > desire is gone. It only requires the sure connection between > desire > > > > and a result you find painful, as Swamiji has pointed out. > > > > > > > > With desires involving more complex relationships between the > actions > > > > and the results, it can take a very long time indeed (lifetimes) > > > > before we finally learn. But it need not. If we find ourselves > with a > > > > strong desire and we don't want to deny it, we can choose the > middle > > > > ground. We can consciously choose to satisfy it - with > discrimination. > > > > > > > > Satisfying a desire with discrimination includes all of the things > > > > Swamiji mentioned in his commentary, but instead of before the > desire > > > > is fulfilled, as a means to stop it, the practice is done while > the > > > > desire is being fulfilled. > > > > > > > > This is not my own idea. It is from the Upanishads (though I > cannot > > > > remember where). Actually, I think this very sutra includes the > idea > > > > of this practice in its statement. The sutra could have stated, > "By > > > > satisfying or denying desire...", but instead said, "The fruit of > the > > > > attempt to satisfy desire...", which includes the attempt to > satisfy > > > > first, but also implicitly includes denial. > > > > > > > > The advantage to this is that with some desires the confusion they > > > > engender is too strong to break through. It's too hard to get the > > > > clarity to see the desire and its results clearly, > dispassionately. > > > > Practicing discrimination while you fulfill your desire can help > you > > > > see all the subtle thoughts and feelings, all the psychological > > > > "hooks", that make the desire so appealing, and can help you > firmly > > > > connect the results of fulfillment to your current spiritual > state > > > > (how do I feel; where is God in this; what happens now). > > > > > > > > The key, of course, is your intention not merely to enjoy, and so > get > > > > lost in the desire, but to focus on your ultimate goal, and on > > > > obtaining the light to be master of the desire, not its slave. So > you > > > > need to watch, carefully, dispassionately, and question, > mercilessly, > > > > and when you perceive some truth, hold on to it tenaciously. As > > > > Swamiji wrote, "Follow events through their logical sequences to > their > > > > ultimate conclusion and what will you get? Will [does] this action > > > > produce pleasure [and of what quality]? Or will the pleasure be so > > > > transient and the pain so great that the reward hardly justifies > the > > > > price?...If we want knowledge, then we will look at our process > very > > > > clearly and analyze step by step what we propose to get...Define > the > > > > necessity for this action. Don't just try to rationalize it. > Define > > > > it. Look deeply at the consequences..." (p.36 The Guru and the > > > Goddess). > > > > > > > > Obviously some desires are too unthinkable to even contemplate > > > > fulfilling, even in this manner. Some desires, too, will prove so > > > > stubborn that light will dawn only slowly and with repeated > practice. > > > > But until you can catch, examine, and burn a desire without > action, > > > > this is an effective way to bring light into the darkness. > > > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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