Is it more spiritual to fault find or see good qualities in others?

[Nitai108]

Is it more spiritual to see faults or to :pray:nly see the good people do?

[Tirisilex]

I try to only see the good in people and ignore any faults.. I dont know if that makes me more spiritual or not..

[Guruvani]

Only the Paramahansa devotee does NOT see faults.

If you don't see faults, then you must be the highest type of devotee.

 

Without seeing some fault, then nobody can preach.

That is what the paramahansa is, he sees no fault.

 

to preach, then one must see faults in others.

 

when we can no longer see faults we have become God realized souls.

 

so, we need to be honest.

Idealogy is nice, but the real world is a little different.

 

sometimes seeing faults is more important than NOT seeing faults.

[Nitai108]

Lord Nityananada only sees the good people do and He was out preaching. Can you explain this?

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

One must always look at their own faults, in particular our inner enermies (antshatrus) such kaam, krodh, lobh, maan, aasha, irsha, trushna, moha etc.

 

One should never look at the faults (avguna) of real sadhus and holy men. This ultimately leads to us falling from our spiritual path. No one is perfect except the Lord. Therefore look at their good qualities and aquire them and give up our bad qualities.

[Guest guest]

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja: I have told this in brief. Anyone who explains this topic [uddhava Gita] must weep and feel a very high class of separation. But our hearts are like stone; because of our aparadhas they are not melting. Your heart will melt when you make it pure. Do not criticize anyone, and try to follow this third verse of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Sri Siksastakam:

 

trnad api sunicena

taror api sahisnuna

amanina manadena

kirtaniyah sada harih

 

["One who thinks himself lower than the grass, who is more tolerant than a tree, and who does not expect personal honor yet is always prepared to give all respect to others can very easily always chant the holy name of the Lord."]

 

Follow the teachings of Srila Rupa Gosvami's Sri Upadesamrta ? Nectar of Instruction. You will then be very strong devotees very soon, and you will be able to realize these topics and weep throughout the day and night. Krsna and Radha will come and give you Their mercy.

[sanatan]

There's a difference in honestly recognizing the faults and shortcomings in others as part of moving through everyday life, and consciously and purposely faultfinding as a separate and elective activity.

 

The former is necessary for protection of oneself as an organism.

 

The latter is what contributes to difficulty with others in "regular" relationships and social interaction, as well being the cause of vaisnava-aparadha, sadhu-ninda, and the resulting spiritual difficulties.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

There's a difference in honestly recognizing the faults and shortcomings in others as part of moving through everyday life, and consciously and purposely faultfinding as a separate and elective activity.

 

Good point, but the problem is that quite often the "difference" is very subtle. Combine that with the conditioned souls tendency to be illusioned through self-deception and you can see the dilemna. Better to error on the side of caution when judging others. The colloqial phrase is, "to give others the benefit of the doubt". I'm sure that many of our mothers told us,"if you can't say something nice about someone then don't say anything at all." Any way its very difficult for neophyte devotees to practice trnadapi sunicena... and move through the world just like a materialist. I should know because that is my exact plight.

[gHari]

But fault-finding is so great for building ego. In the karmi world, it is the chief activity of losers, their only way to feign superiority thus forgetting their own mediocrity.

[Guest guest]

so you are fault finding such people

[Shakti-Fan]

 

so you are fault finding such people

I know that you said this in jest. But I think that gHari was just pointing out the nature of the materialistic mind. His "criticism" was aimed at a ubiquitous mentality not a particular group or person, and certainly not a particular group of Vaisnavas or an individual Vaisnava.

[gHari]

Yes, finding fault with fault-finding does itself seem a fault. Kettle - black, chicken and the egg, 'the purpose of life is to search for the purpose of life', yet another paradox in words, this time proving the rule.

[Guest guest]

yes i was only joking, i always enjoy reading gHari's posts

[Guest guest]

 

yes i was only joking, i always enjoy reading gHari's posts

I hope that you are aware zat joking is strictly VERBOTTEN on zis site!

[Guest guest]

Maybe you could be more specific what do you mean by: "fault". I don't understand what you mean by the term like "fault-finding". Do you mean

"critique"?

 

There is a way that people can objectively see if people are corresponding to a list of rubrics or benchmarks by noting observable behaviors. We are instructed to refer to such a list in the Gaudiya tradition's "Qualities of a Pure Devotee" and in Tibetan Buddhism's "The Eleven Marks of A Holy Person". In addition in Hari Bhakti Vilasa one is instructed to test the guru; if you don't then both the disciple and the guru go to hell together.

 

For example, "one should never look at the faults of real sadhus and holy men". That is ridiculous. What kinds of faults are you talking about that one should not look at" Murder, embezzling money, child abuse, not following the precepts he was sworn to uphold? We are not supposed to look at that? It seems to me that we should be scrutinizing self-proclaimed "real sadhus and holy men" more than the average person, given the history of humanity and

what has gone on in the name of religion for thousands of years all around the world?

 

Can you be specific what faults we are supposed to overlook? And why? If the President of US does something wrong he can be impeached. We don't overlook his faults. The same for any politician, you document the faults--violating the sacred trust the people place in leaders--and you seek jurisprudence. Are you saying that "real sadhus and holy men" are exempt from this?

 

Also who determines who is a "real sadhu and holy man"? Even in Gaudiya Vedanta tradition one person's "real sadhu and holy man" is another person's person who is banned from entering the temple. Karmis, abortionists, meat-eaters, terrorists, mass murderers may see the Deity but not someone who is a "real sadhu and holy man" to someone else. And that's in the same Saraswata lineage.

 

So can you define what you mean by "faults" and "fault-finding"? Do you mean

you are not allowed to check if the purported holy person follows all of the things written in the scriptures that he is supposed to do and how he is supposed to behave? And if you do, "That's fault-finding, Prabhu." Then twenty, thirty years later turns out the person who accurately assessed and critiqued the situation and saw that the Emperor had no clothes was right?

 

Do you mean that we are just supposed to accept bullies and goondas roughing people up and silencing them for "finding fault with real sadhus and holy men"?

 

Do you mean that spiritually minded people should act like the supervisors in the Friday November 24, 2006 USA today story about "Whistleblowers"? For example a team of US government employees were paid to "think like a terrorist" and they discovered that at 90% of US airports, Team Red agents could get onto an airplane with bombs and machine guns? Then when Team Red reported their findings, Team Red's supervisors started alerting all of the airports ahead of time? Then when one Team Red person complained about it he lost his job? Then a few months later some people saying, "Ohhhh, there's nothing we could have done to have prevented 9/11?"

 

Do you mean we should be like that in our spiritual lives? "Don't find fault prabhu?" Or do you mean we should be like in same article a US government translator discovered that at Guantanamo one of the translators was writing up confessions inaccurately because the person couldn't even pass the basic Arabic competency test? Then when she pointed this out she was fired? So we should be like that and "Don't find fault prabhu?"

 

If a "real sadhu and holy man" has a fault, I would want to know about it and be informed about it. Then I think it's my judgement call if this is something I should overlook or not. And I think it would be a community service to tell other people about it also: "Truth in Advertising". However maybe do you mean we should pass a "Sadhu Disparagement Laws" and start arresting people for critiquing alleged "sadhus" behaviors?

 

I suppose you could do that; that is what the meat industry did. See a former Texas cattleman Howard Lyman went on Oprah and told all of the disgusting things that happen when animals are factory farmed. Then after that the meat industry made a law called "The Food Disparagement Law"

where you are now not allowed to say anything bad about food that might cause a loss of revenues for the meat industry.

 

So do you mean that say a self-proclaimed "sadhu" has a big scam misleading people and is able to convince some dunderheads that he is the Messiah. Are you saying that we ought to pass similar laws that no one should disparage sadhus? No one should point out how they really live, how it differs from what we think they are really should be doing if they are holy men?

[krishnadasa]

One who acts according to the time, place and the people is the wise. However, wise also knows that he acts only according to the material nature. Had Arjuna stopped fighting thinking that everyone is same and soul without finding the faults in the Kauravas, the history would have set a wrong example to the people..

 

When the time is to kill one has to kill for the good of all in genaral.. However fault finding for the selfish benifit isnt good....

 

Hari hari bol

[mrs.moore]

the fly is attracted to the sore

the bee is attracted to the flower.

[Guest guest]

Gee. I have never been so criticized as when I've been among temple devotees.

 

 

 

Only the Paramahansa devotee does NOT see faults.

If you don't see faults, then you must be the highest type of devotee.

 

Without seeing some fault, then nobody can preach.

That is what the paramahansa is, he sees no fault.

 

to preach, then one must see faults in others.

 

when we can no longer see faults we have become God realized souls.

 

so, we need to be honest.

Idealogy is nice, but the real world is a little different.

 

sometimes seeing faults is more important than NOT seeing faults.

[nitai16108]

Hare Krishna

 

All Glories to Srila Prabhupad

 

In one of the lectures i heard that srila prabhupad says that " if one is capable of finding faults at others or other vaishnava then he should be capable to accept the good things what he is doing and that which we are not doing still"

 

Srila Prabhupad critises all the others because he was capable to save all the jivas including me and you. iam scared that if Srila prabhupad would have been not starting this sankirtan movement then, " everybody of us (jivas) will be immersed in this material ocean.

All glories to srila prabhupad

All glories to Sri srila avaduta nithyananda prabhu and Sri chaitanya mahaprabhu for giving such a "Maha bhagavata bhakta like srila prabhupad".

 

Hari bol

[mrs.moore]

i know some bah'ai people, and in their religion they call it "backbiting". it's like a really really serious sin to them. it's an essential elementary foundational element of their religion -- not to do it.

[krsna]

Are we not all encouraged to be like the honey-bee that is constantly looking for the nectar in the field of wild flowers and NOT be like the house-fly that always looks for the stool in the dirty place???

[cbrahma]

That is a difficult one. There are exalted Vaisnavas that have reprimanded some who were not their disciples calling them 'asses'. Prabhupada used the terms 'rascal' and 'mudha' liberally, sometimes naming names. Jesus tore into the Pharisees, calling them hypocrites. It seems to depend on the enormity of the fault. If somebody in a position of authority is molesting children for instance, it can hardly be called fault-finding to blow the whistle. If somebody is promoting lies about somebody else, one has to speak up. Silence is consent. So there are many cases where it is irresponsible not to point out fault. In those cases, however, where the fault is simply common human imperfection, fault finding is just a way of making oneself look better at the expense of another.

 

The verse - trnad api su-nicena taror iva sahisnuna amanina mana-dena kirtaniyah sada harih

 

["One who thinks himself lower than the grass, who is more tolerant than a tree, and who does not expect personal honor yet is always prepared to give all respect to others can very easily always chant the holy name of the Lord." (Adi-lila 17.31)]

 

That is the quality of a Vaisnava. Such an individual is very very rare.

[krsna]

 

 

Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing. And when you have reached the mountaintop, then you shall begin to climb. And when the Earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.

Should we all confess our sins to one another, we would all laugh at one another for our lack of originality. Should we all reveal our virtues, we would also laugh for the same cause.

 

Saint Kabir (1440-1518)

 

[Amlesh]

The definitions on the diverse topics have already been given in the Shastra concerning discrimination.

 

It's a esoteric topic to discuss about. But Try to understand the activities of any one of the 12 Mahajanas, it will bring light to many clouded issues.

[krsna]

There is nothing noble in being superior to some other man. The true nobility is in being superior to your previous self.

 

-- Hindu proverb

 

 

 

 

Find fault with your own self, introspect, pay attention to your owm damn mind. Unless you are the guru, parent or appointed teacher, why would you go out of your way to find fault in any one else, save and except if you want 'to show him up' by being so-called superior, or if you are competing and thus trying 'to drag the other persons down' in order 'to prop youir self up'.

 

This is the nasty business of chronic materialistic conciousness due to malice, spite and enviousness. The Bhagavata is not meant for such people.