Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

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Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

I wrote:

> All these statements are directed to his initiated disciples. You wrongly

> assume that they apply to everyone. Of course, the physical presence of

> the guru might be immaterial, but only after initiation.

 

I got this from someone else and added it without checking it. Therefore I

remove it again. So following remains:

 

Even if you post them again and again, none of these quotes say that for the

initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required. None of

them contains the word 'diksa' or 'initiation'.

 

 

> Vani is more important than vapuh.

> (Letter to Tusta Krishna Das, 14/12/72)

 

It seems you accept letters to Tusta Krsna as evidence, if they fit in your

theory, and reject letters to Tusta Krsna as evidence, if they don't fit in

your theory. Like for example following letter:

 

"Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can

accept disciples on the same principle." (Letter to Tusta Krsna, Dec 2,

1975)

 

 

> He lives forever by his divine instructions, and the follower lives with

> him. (SB(1962 Ed) Preface)

>

> The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the

> suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can

> extinguish the fire of material existence. (SB(1987 Ed) 1.7.22)

 

Do these quotes also apply to previous acaryas, like Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur? If his disciple takes birth again on the

earth, from whom should he take initiation? Who is his 'current link'?

 

 

> > Why did Srila Prabhupada go to New York and other cities, if his

> > physical presence was not required there to initiate and deliver

> > disciples, as you claim?

>

> The question you need to answer is:

>

> 'why did Srila Prabhupada NOT attend scores of initiation ceremonies if

> his physical presence was absolutely required at the point of initiation

> as you claim?'

 

The question you need to answer is:

 

Is the initiation ceremony the initation itself?

 

 

> > Your statement remains fuzzy because you did not write for what the

> > physical presence is not required.

>

> I am simply repeating Srila Prabhupada's statements, as above.

 

You wrote:

> I only claimed we do not need Srila Prabhupada's physical presence, a

> claim based on what Srila Prabhupada stated over and over again.

 

So you did not only simply repeat Srila Prabhupada's statements. You also

produced a 'claim based on what Srila Prabhupada stated'. It is this claim

("we do not need Srila Prabhupada's physical presence") that is fuzzy, not

Srila Prabhupada's statements.

 

Do you claim that for initiation and delivery 'we do not need Srila

Prabhupada's physical presence'? If yes, then why did Srila Prabhupada go to

New York and other cities to initiate and deliver disciples?

 

 

> Transmission of knowledge is the main constituent of the process of diksa,

> and that does not require the physical presence of the guru.

 

What are the other constituents? And do they require the physical presence

of the guru or not?

 

 

Summary:

 

You did not present one single statement by Srila Prabhupada saying that for

the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required, as

you claim.

 

You are unable to answer following questions:

 

Why did Srila Prabhupada go to New York and other cities, if his physical

presence was not required there to initiate and deliver disciples, as you

claim?

 

How can Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur deliver his disciples who

took birth again on the earth, if he does not initiate them, as you claim?

 

How can I inquire from Srila Prabhupada, if he is not present on this

planet?

 

What is the guarantee that you correctly understood Srila Prabhupada?

 

You silently accepted that your statement "It cannot be essential to ‘go to’

the physical body of the guru since many of Srila Prabhupada’s initiated

disciples never met him" is a conclusion by an imperfect brain drawn from

observations through imperfect senses.

 

You could not back up your definition of "physical spiritual master" by a

quote from Srila Prabhupada.

 

You are unable to tell us for what the physical presence of the guru is not

required. If you don't know something perfectly, then don't talk about it.

 

"Just see how rascaldom. You do not know something perfectly, and still, you

are talking about it." (Lecture, Bg 1.45-46, Aug 1, 1973)

 

So who is defeated?

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa