Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

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Posted by Yaduraja Nov 30, 2006:

 

Dear Ramakanta prabhu,

PAMHO, AGTSP,

To summarise:

 

Your opposition to point c) seems to rest on various unfounded speculations.

I have identified at least 7 unproven speculations which I have paraphrased

below:

 

Speculation 1):

 

The disciple is delivered at the time of the initiation ceremony.

 

> Srila Prabhupada delivers disciples by initiating them.

(Ramakanata das Nov 12, 2006 - 06:41 AM)

 

Speculation 2):

 

Only after the ceremony does the guru not need to be physically present.

 

> Of course, the physical presence of the guru might be immaterial, but only

> after initiation.

(Ramakanta das Nov 29, 2006 - 06:11 AM)

 

Speculation 3):

 

The many ‘physical presence’ quotes only apply to siksa, not diksa.

 

> You have not presented a single statement by Srila Prabhupada saying that

> for diksa (not siksa) the physical presence of the guru is not important.

(Ramakanta das Nov 12, 2006 - 06:41 AM)

 

Speculation 4):

 

In order to deliver disciples who have strayed Srila Prabhupada must come

back to the same planet they are living on and perform initiation again.

 

> But if a disciple stops executing his order or starts offending other

> Vaisnavas, then Srila Prabhupada has to come back from Goloka Vrindaban to

> deliver that disciple (initiate him) in his next birth also

(Ramakanta das Nov 12, 2006 - 06:41 AM)

 

Speculation 5):

 

Srila Prabhupada must be physically present at the initiation ceremony.

 

> Why did Srila Prabhupada go to New York and other cities, if his physical

> presence was not required there to initiate and deliver disciples, as you

> claim?

(Ramakanta das Nov 29, 2006 - 06:11 AM)

 

Speculation 6):

 

The guru must be physically present on the same planet as the disciple in

order for the disciple to ‘go to’ him, ‘speak to him’ and thus be

‘instructed by him’, which is essential for diksa.

 

> The guru must be present (incarnated) on this planet, because otherwise it

> would not be possible to go to him as Srila Prabhupada instructed:

(Ramakanata das Nov 28, 2006 - 07:31 AM)

 

Speculation 7):

 

In order to deliver disciples Srila Prabhupada must be on the same planet as

the disciple.

 

> Srila Prabhupada cannot deliver disciples on this planet without being

> present (incarnated) on this planet. Yes, I claim that...

(Ramakanta das Oct 23, 2006 - 05:35 AM)

 

 

Firstly, it is a fact that Srila Prabhupada never explicitly stated

speculation 1,2,3,4, 5, 6 or 7. They are extrapolations based on an inept

interpretation of the evidence. So lets go through each speculation.

 

If speculation 1 were correct then obviously there would never be any need

for a guru to come back; hence speculation 4 would be rendered redundant.

 

Either ‘delivery’ always takes place at the point of ceremonial initiation

or it does not. Once a disciple is delivered the guru’s job is done. You

cannot seem to decide whether it does or not.

 

Either way point c) remains intact since if delivery takes place at the

point of initiation then disciples can still be so ‘delivered’ via the

ritvik system of ceremonial initiation, and if it does not, then newly

initiated disciples will be in exactly the same boat as every other

‘Prabhupada disciple’.

 

Since the evidence you presented (JPS) defines ‘delivering’ as ‘transferring

disciples to the spiritual sky’ you must accept that Srila Prabhupada can

still deliver disciples even whilst physically absent from earth, otherwise

none of the original disciples could currently be delivered. Yet to accept

this would contradict your speculation 7.

 

Speculation 3 and speculation 2 cancel each other out, since one claims the

‘physical presence’ quotes only apply to diksa, whilst the other is based on

the assumption that the quotes only apply to siksa. Since on the absolute

platform there is in any case no difference between siksa and diksa, point

c) remains intact.

 

Speculation 5 is defeated by the fact that, particularly after 1975, Srila

Prabhupada did not attend many initiation ceremonies, delegating this

function to priestly representatives such as Kirtanananda.

 

I only need to find ONE example of Srila Prabhupada NOT attending a ceremony

to prove it is not essential. Yet there are dozens of occasions when he did

not attend. Do you dispute this? Again this leaves point C) intact since we

know from Srila Prabhupada’s practical example the diksa ceremony does not

require him physically being there.

 

If speculation 6 were true then obviously none of Srila Prabhupada’s

original disciples have been able to ‘speak to’ or ‘go to’ or be ‘instructed

by’ a spiritual master for nearly 3 decades. Many of them never spoke to or

went to Srila Prabhupada’s physical body, even when he was on the planet.

Therefore how can such physical interaction be ESSENTIAL to diksa? Thus how

can this be a reason to remove Srila Prabhupada as the sole diksa guru for

ISKCON? So either none of the original disciples of Srila Prabhupada have

had a diksa guru since 1977, or speculation 6 is wrong and point C) remains

intact. You decide.

 

Speculation 7) would mean this entire debate was redundant since no-one

could have been delivered (nor ever will be) since 1977.

 

You also contradict yourself YET AGAIN by presenting the following quote as

evidence:

 

"You have asked if it is true that the Spiritual Master remains in the

material universe until all of His disciples are transferred to the

Spiritual Sky. The answer is yes, this is the rule. (Letter to Jayapataka,

11 Jul, 1969) (As presented by Ramakanta das Oct 23, 2006 - 05:35 AM)

 

And then demoniacally attacking what Srila Prabhupada states:

 

> So I shall take it you still agree that Srila Prabhupada remains in the

> material universe until his disciples are delivered. (Yaduraja das)

>

> On Nov. 8 I wrote you that this contradicts Srila Prabhupada's statement.

> Did you already forget? Why do you speculate that I agree? How can he come

> back from Goloka Vrindaban, if he remains in the material universe?

(Ramakanta das Nov 28, 2006 - 07:31 AM)

 

Srila Prabhupada states “the Spiritual Master remains in the material

universe until all of His disciples are transferred to the Spiritual Sky.”

And you say you do not agree with him. What a rascal!

 

And even if it were the case that Srila Prabhupada did go to the same planet

as a particularly errant disciple to guide him, this still would not mean

point c) is unproven. (And where in the name of the Lord do you get the idea

that such a disciple must be initiated yet AGAIN!! Where is this ever stated

by Srila Prabhupada?)

 

Just because Srila Prabhupada may chose to physically meet a struggling

disciple in person, physically, on some planet or other, does not prove he

must ALWAYS meet disciples physically.

 

Your mistake is that you are illogically challenging a system set up by the

spiritual master for the general administering of ceremonial initiation

within a global movement on Earth, on the basis of his hypothetical need for

specialised, physical intervention on some planet or other in the universe.

 

For example, let’s say that Jayatirtha is on some hellish planet and Srila

Prabhupada decides to visit him physically there. Why or how would this mean

we are justified in removing Srila Prabhupada as the sole diksa guru for

ISKCON? It is just completely illogical!

 

So long as you fail to prove that Srila Prabhupada MUST physically meet ALL

his disciples, which he never did when he was on the planet, and which you

have certainly failed to prove, there is no reason why he should not remain

the sole diksa guru for ISKCON, just as he personally established.

 

You ask:

 

> What are the other constituents? And do they require the physical presence

> of the guru or not?

 

Destroying the disciple’s sinful reactions. If it did then none of Srila

Prabhupada’s current disciples could have had any sinful reactions destroyed

for nearly 3 decades.

 

Your whole ‘physical presence’ challenge has thus crashed into a mangled

disaster of self-defeat and speculation. Point c) remains intact.

 

Can’t you see it’s over? You are finished. Why not be a gentleman and

concede defeat? You cannot defeat the truth, and the truth is Srila

Prabhupada should remain the sole diksa guru for ISKCON as he established

himself to be way back in 1966, with no authorisation to the GBC (the body

he left to manage initiation) to ever remove him.

 

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu