Krishna and freewill

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

I was just wondering if anyone could enlighten me on this problem. Why does Krsna test his devotee's faith? If the past, present and future have already been written and are known by Krsna what need does he have to test his devotees? Wouldn't Krsna already know the result of the test? Also if the future is already written how can we have free will?

 

Thank you prabhu's

 

hari bol

[Guruvani]

 

Hare Krishna

 

I was just wondering if anyone could enlighten me on this problem. Why does Krsna test his devotee's faith? If the past, present and future have already been written and are known by Krsna what need does he have to test his devotees? Wouldn't Krsna already know the result of the test? Also if the future is already written how can we have free will?

 

Thank you prabhu's

 

hari bol

 

where is it said in shastra that the future is already written?

I would like to know that for some study on the matter.

 

Destiny is written on a daily basis as we make choices and perform karmic deeds. Free will has a part in the creation of destiny. It is not pre-ordained down to every sinful act we perfom. that is all free will and karma that dictates destiny as it is generated.

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote I read the other day in one book that destiny can be changed with Krishna consciousness.

so, that shoots the destiny theory down as far as that issue goes.

 

In Krishna consciousness, destiny become more about the mercy and gifts of God than about karmic fruits.

[Guest guest]

 

where is it said in shastra that the future is already written?

I would like to know that for some study on the matter.

 

Destiny is written on a daily basis as we make choices and perform karmic deeds. Free will has a part in the creation of destiny. It is not pre-ordained down to every sinful act we perfom. that is all free will and karma that dictates destiny as it is generated.

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote I read the other day in one book that destiny can be changed with Krishna consciousness.

so, that shoots the destiny theory down as far as that issue goes.

 

In Krishna consciousness, destiny become more about the mercy and gifts of God than about karmic fruits.

 

BG 7.26: O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.

 

So if Krsna knows all things that are yet to come, why does test his devotees?

 

BG 11.7: O Arjuna, whatever you wish to see, behold at once in this body of Mine! This universal form can show you whatever you now desire to see and whatever you may want to see in the future. Everything — moving and nonmoving — is here completely, in one place.

 

Im not sure if this is relevant to the whole knowing the future thing... but it mentions future lol

[Guruvani]

 

BG 7.26: O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.

 

That is probably more a general concept of knowing when and how the universe and living entities came out and when and how all will meet destruction in the future.

Krishna is antiseptic and prophylactic.

For example, he is not in hearts of all living beings watching everythng like a porn flik at the cinema.

If krishna was subjected to seeing all the sinful acts of every creature whos heart he was in, then he would be watching some of the most vulgar and violent scenes imaginable.

He sees the spirit soul proper and the basic colors of the modes of nature that cover the living entities.

They become glowing or dim based upon the mode of nature the living entity is in.

A living being in goodness is more illuminated than say a living being covered by the red of passion of the black of ignorace.

 

So, the finite souls he sees, but not exactly all their specific deeds.

The Sun, the Moon and the Stars record all these acts and deeds of the living beings and the demigods administrate the management of the conditioned souls.

 

So, destiny can also be like standard rewards or punishments that are meted out by the administative demigods who do bear witness to all the deeds of the living entities.

 

Exact details of every last deed and karmic act are probably played out something like a football game, and we know the game will be played on a particular field with particular rules, but nobody really knows who is going to win or lose until the game is over.

[Gaea]

 

Im not sure if this is relevant to the whole knowing the future thing... but it mentions future lol

 

I had it explained to me by an enlightened soul very recently... Free will for a person can be considered as a bull that is tied to a tree. The bull can move here and there so long as the rope permits, but no further. So basically, there is free will and "written future" at the same time - some things are totally up to you and there are many other things over which you have no control.

[Guest guest]

 

.

For example, he is not in hearts of all living beings watching everythng like a porn flik at the cinema.

If krishna was subjected to seeing all the sinful acts of every creature whos heart he was in, then he would be watching some of the most vulgar and violent scenes imaginable.

 

I am sure Krsna is in the hearts of all living beings as paramatma. An example is given in a certain upanisad that there are two birds on one tree. One bird is simply watching, whilst the other is focused on attaining the fruits from the tree.

 

What is wrong with krsna watching the most vulgar and violent scenes imaginable? He is everywhere, and the people who commit such acts will be judged by Lord Yamaraja. Krsna would remain knowledgeable of all acts, good and bad.

 

Hari Bol

[Gaea]

 

What is wrong with krsna watching the most vulgar and violent scenes imaginable? He is everywhere, and the people who commit such acts will be judged by Lord Yamaraja. Krsna would remain knowledgeable of all acts, good and bad.

 

 

I agree... there can be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that can escape Krsna's gaze. Otherwise, what is the meaning of "All Knowing" and "All Seeing"? Anyway, that question is besides the point of the thread.

[Guest guest]

 

I had it explained to me by an enlightened soul very recently... Free will for a person can be considered as a bull that is tied to a tree. The bull can move here and there so long as the rope permits, but no further. So basically, there is free will and "written future" at the same time - some things are totally up to you and there are many other things over which you have no control.

 

Thank you, that is a wonderful example.

 

Also thank you for the disccusion Guruvani. You are both great to talk to, i hope one day i can be as knoweldgeable and steady in faith as you two are.

 

Hari Bol

[Pankaja_Dasa]

i HAD ONE THOUGHT, if I think something bad or good, the Mind is Krishna's expansion (says inside the Gita), so this means Krishna already knows FULL WELL, what I will think in the future at any given point in time. This means He knows what I will do, whether good or bad, yet still we have Free will? What Free will do we have if Krishna already knows what we will think in the future? !!!!

[Gaea]

 

i HAD ONE THOUGHT, if I think something bad or good, the Mind is Krishna's expansion (says inside the Gita), so this means Krishna already knows FULL WELL, what I will think in the future at any given point in time. This means He knows what I will do, whether good or bad, yet still we have Free will? What Free will do we have if Krishna already knows what we will think in the future? !!!!

 

interesting thought... how do you think Krsna's knowing your future thought process impinges on your free will? would it not just be like watching tv for Him (knowing exactly what is going to happen, like watching a rerun ), rather than interfering with the actor in the tv directly?

[Guest guest]

 

i HAD ONE THOUGHT, if I think something bad or good, the Mind is Krishna's expansion (says inside the Gita), so this means Krishna already knows FULL WELL, what I will think in the future at any given point in time.

 

Thats an assumption, and a very big assumption. I think it would be more useful if you quote the exact verse. Because knowing what one thinks currently, is not the same as knowing what on thinks in the future. What a person thinks is influenced (not controlled) by material nature. So what we think is still up to us, it wasn't forced upon us. Therefore it was still an act of freewill and not a predetermined event.

[Guruvani]

There is one verse in Srimad Bhagavatam I remember from some time back where it says that sinful acts are performed behind the Lord.

So, in the sense that the gaze of the Lord does not see what is going on behind his back, he does not see sinful acts.

Sinful acts cannot stand in front of the Lord, they must be done behind him.

 

Maybe someday I will have hours and hours to try and find that reference I saw years ago.

 

I think the Lord turns his back on sinful things.

To say that the Lord's vision and mind is full of all the sinful acts in the world is ludicrous if you ask me.

The divine God is not viewing all the disgusting pornography of the world like someone watching a XXX rated film from from some sleazy movie company.

 

I will never believe that.

The divine being is not contaminated with visions of such rubbish.

 

He has intuition to know things.

He doesn't have to see it directly to know about it.

 

He sees the modes of nature, not the act itself.

My verdict......subject to growth and improvement!

 

It seems that free will itself must accomdate a certain amount of random action within the modes of material nature. To predict the random acts of all living entities seems to contradict the concept of free will.

If it is all predictable, then is there really any such thing as free will?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

interesting thought... how do you think Krsna's knowing your future thought process impinges on your free will? would it not just be like watching tv for Him (knowing exactly what is going to happen, like watching a rerun ), rather than interfering with the actor in the tv directly?

 

 

Yoga-maya is watching Maha-maya:smash:

[Gaea]

 

There is one verse in Srimad Bhagavatam I remember from some time back where it says that sinful acts are performed behind the Lord.

So, in the sense that the gaze of the Lord does not see what is going on behind his back, he does not see sinful acts.

 

 

meaning he chooses to forgive, no? Not that He doesn't see it. I do not see how God can be God if He is somehow shielded from everything - in the end of the day this is HIS creation - HIS maya. HE created it knowing full well the implications of kali. But He is not affected by the these things because, as Krsna confirms in Gita, He is the source of EVERYTHING. He is no more affected by these sinful acts as the horror movie director is affected by his creation in the studio set. That's my thoughts anyway.

[Guruvani]

 

meaning he chooses to forgive, no? Not that He doesn't see it. I do not see how God can be God if He is somehow shielded from everything -

Well, let me turn that around on you and ask that how can God be God unless he has the power to be shielded from everything?

The power of God would seem to be that he can know things without actually knowing things.

 

To say that God can only know something directly and not indirectly would seem to be putting limitations on his powers.

 

Paramatma is in trance meditating upon himself.

He is not seeing all the dirty deeds of sinful souls throughtout the cosmos.

 

He knows yet he doesn't know.

In trance, he is quite oblivious to all sorts of external material activities of finite conditioned souls.

He is absorbed in meditation on the Supreme Infinite, not the filthy deeds of finite conditioned living beings.

 

He can know without seeing.

He isn't dependent upon seeing for his knowing.

 

Paramatma is the topmost Yogi in his yogic trance.

He is not meditating on the sinful cinema of the sinful souls in illusion.

 

How is God the topmost Yogi?

He is the topmost meditator upon himself!

[Gaea]

 

Well, let me turn that around on you and ask that how can God be God unless he has the power to be shielded from everything?

The power of God would seem to be that he can know things without actually knowing things.

 

To say that God can only know something directly and not indirectly would seem to be putting limitations on his powers.

 

 

Ahh, i see what you mean now. that's hard to answer because by our limited logic it would follow that direct-only knowledge is a limit. To be honest, i can't answer that. At least we both agree that he is still all knowing in some sense.

 

 

Paramatma is in trance meditating upon himself.

He is not seeing all the dirty deeds of sinful souls throughtout the cosmos.

 

 

ok, not directly, as you said.

 

 

He knows yet he doesn't know.

In trance, he is quite oblivious to all sorts of external material activities of finite conditioned souls.

He is absorbed in meditation on the Supreme Infinite, not the filthy deeds of finite conditioned living beings.

 

 

ok, what about Kalki who will see with His own two eyes these "filthy" things?

 

All very metaphysical... i guess it doesn't matter either way... the important thing is that we remain in devotional service and full of Love.

[Guruvani]

 

ok, what about Kalki who will see with His own two eyes these "filthy" things?

 

 

If I remember correctly, Kalki is shaktyavesha empowered Jiva.

He is not of the Vishnu tattva category and not having ALL the power of Godhead - just the power to kill all the demons at the end of Kali-yuga.

Heck, George Bush could do that with his finger on the BUTTON!

 

Kalki is not of the Paramatma level.

[gHari]

The Audarya pundits pondered this question at length a few years back in this clickable thread.

[gHari]

Why are we tested, if Krsna knows the result? Two thoughts come to mind about this.

 

The first is this. We can consider the conditioning laws of karma to be like a grinder. We put a piece of rusty metal through the grinder, and it files the rough pieces of rust off. We put the metal through again, and it files some finer pieces of rust off. We continue doing this until the metal is absolutely smooth, and is no longer touched by the grinder as it passes through the mechanism.

 

So when life tests (passing through the grinder) no longer generate karmic reactions (filing rust), the jiva is polished, finished. However, if it is not yet perfect, then the karmic grinding process of the modes of nature will again grind away the unwanted bits.

 

The second idea is that when one reads a book, they will not read the last few pages first; otherwise that will spoil the enjoyment. Sri Krsna derives great pleasure from our love, so His purposely disregarding the future in order to enjoy our relationship in the present would not be inconceivable. In the Sri Caitanya-caritamrita it is written that Krsna knows deep inside that Srimati Radharani is really a part of Him, yet He is so fascinated by Her that He cannot break away to even consider the fact. Thus They remain separate forever, even though One.

[Sridas]

 

Well, let me turn that around on you and ask that how can God be God unless he has the power to be shielded from everything?

The power of God would seem to be that he can know things without actually knowing things.

 

To say that God can only know something directly and not indirectly would seem to be putting limitations on his powers.

 

Paramatma is in trance meditating upon himself.

He is not seeing all the dirty deeds of sinful souls throughtout the cosmos.

 

He knows yet he doesn't know.

In trance, he is quite oblivious to all sorts of external material activities of finite conditioned souls.

He is absorbed in meditation on the Supreme Infinite, not the filthy deeds of finite conditioned living beings.

 

He can know without seeing.

He isn't dependent upon seeing for his knowing.

 

Paramatma is the topmost Yogi in his yogic trance.

He is not meditating on the sinful cinema of the sinful souls in illusion.

 

How is God the topmost Yogi?

He is the topmost meditator upon himself!

 

 

I can't say for certain what the answer is here other than both can be simultaieousely acomodated, as i've heard Srila Sridhara Maharaj say " The Absolute has room for the accomodation of anything and everything, if something is outside that, then He can't be Absolute"

 

Yet we have the different aspects where Sri Swayam Bhagavam is simply enjoying Himself in His favourite pastimes, and even His focus on those is divided into sweet, sweeter, and sweetest attraction.

 

Srila Rupa Goswami has given us an example of the gradation of service. When Krishna is at the summit of Govardhan hill and he sees Balaram and his sakhya friends playing in the pasturing ground below, He also sees Yasoda with all her helpers busily preparing His meal. All the dasya servitors are seen to be engaged in some arrangement under the direction of Yasoda. Chandravali, with her group, is approaching a particular meeting place, while His beloved Srimate Radharani is coming with her friends to an appointed place to be united with Krishna., All the different groups represented together around Govardhan are assembling there - santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya - all are in His sight. He is overseeing everything,. So very many affectionate servitors are all vying for His attention. But His eyes are always drawn to Srimate Radharani and her group.

Even Laksmi devi, the goddess of fortune and wife of Lord Vishnu wanted to participate in the rasa lila of those simple cowherd girls in Vrindavan, the gopis, but she could not enter. For that market place of the rasa-lila pastime is so very exclusive.

Although she has all the wealth and grandeur of Lord Vishnu in Vaikuntha still, unsatisfied, she is running to join in that great dance in which Krishna is at the centre. No capitalist can enter that market and open a shop there for He has the full monopoly. There is only one commodity in the market and that commodity is Krishna consciousness. SSM.

 

So although his gaze may see the various devotional sentiments, his attention is always drawn towards the highest sacrifice of unconditional loving surrender of the trillions of perfected souls. That's one consideration.

Then simultaneously in a lesser expansion of exstatic potency He is reciprocating with the servitors of Dwaraka, Ayodya and further down Vaikuntha with some lesser rasa of anandam. But for all the spun out jivas outside viraja on the other side of the Bramhajhoti effulgence a certain monitoring process of surveilance is in place to keep tabs on the independent rebellious crew not with an eye to view their sordid activity but mostly to make sure they don't get overly out of control with power lust and maddness, and cause more trouble for the others, as they play out their fantasies of being God or Gods.

 

Yet again Srila Sridhara Maharaj says, Krsna's vision only sees every jiva as a slave-or servitor of Him.That is it's all more than good, and that is a Maha Bhagavat's vision also, nothing but God everywhere, there is nowhere He isn't, but that doesn't mean they are attracted to look at nonsense or Maya no....their attraction is always to the sweetest form of devotion in our case that is Radha dasyam. So what to speak of Krsna's vision, it is acintya to understand beyond pure good and pure evil.

But let me ask are we something more than Him because we have access to evil. He is the cause of all causes and He is

a very naughty boy but he doesn't see His actions or others the way they do, nor do His devotees. He can do no wrong most of the time let's say. And if we receive that gracious gift of a glance from the Sweet Absolute to see that way, we'll be very compassionate to the worst of sinners. Like, "father forgive them they know not what they do."

So the bottom line is we have to continually surrender our selves to Krsna's Conciousness, and live in that. Meanwhile He'll be maintaining all the rest of it.