Guest guest Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Dear , There are other methods of examining a chart in the the absence of the Birth data, which is Prashna Kundli, which of course you may be aware of. But this should be done only when the subject matter gains full priority in the Querents mind, to be able to achieve a proper time of approach ,received from the omnipresent,omnipotent power of God pervading all around. The urgency of wanting to know the answer has to be there before taking resort to the Prashna Kundli, which is highly advantegous to know the answers for many queries, where the birth chart is absent, or wherethe birth chart fails to show the incidence, if it is not of much Grave nature. I have used the prashna chart a few times succesfully, to indicate the matters put up, and Gods Grace they have been projected very well through the Prashna chart. The instance of my above mail is just to remind the Learned members that they should definitely use the Prashna Chart, when they are not sure of the options which the birth charts show, or in their absence. Prashna Chart may be made at the time of approach of the Query, and also at time of the astrologer sitting down to calculate,'if it co-incides with the time of Query. Here the problem lies with most Vedic astrologers as to how to suggets reply if 2-3 natives come at the same time, when the Lagna would remain same fo say 1- 1.5hours, then for ex. if one politician comes and asks about his state in the elections and you give him a positive reply, and if another opponent politician also comes within half an hour and asks the same question, how can we say that You will also win? Then the need comes to have some other system which the Nakshatra based system has a solution for. 1-249. Few members who may be knowing about this system may comment on the same and enlighten the members of this Valued and auspicious Forum. Thanks, Bhaskar. , "David Hawthorne" <david wrote: > > dear anna and chandrashekhar: > > thank you for your posts and contributions to this list. > > on a personal note, i would have commented on the chart if birth data had been provided. > > in that way, i could have created the chart and taken planetary degrees, etc., into consideration, which i think are essential for interpretation. > > in this case, i think anna wanted to keep the data confidential. > > this may have reduced the amount of participation in the case study. > > best wishes, > > david hawthorne > - > Chandrashekhar > > Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:57 AM > Re: Re: Incest > > > Dear Anna, > Your logic is right. Jupiter does act like 6th and 3rd lord in the > Lagna. It is indeed a chilly story. > > I did notice that not many responded. That perhaps is because many felt > the topic was sensitive/sordid. I to felt the same but could not stop > giving my views. > > Take care, > Chandrashekhar. > > 108ar wrote: > > > > Dear Chandashekhar, > > > > > > Thank you for your valuable comment- which helps me get confirmation > > of the approach and thinking process I've applied; suggestion/advice > > on where to focus my attention further. > > I hope you are doing fine and i am glad to notice that nothing can > > stay in the way of your teaching and sharing jyotish knowledge. > > As for Ju, you are right, and in fact I do consider Ju /in Libra/ as > > being in lagna Libra- I just wanted to give more info re its position. > > Confirming your opinion is the fact that suicidal thoughts of a young > > man were pronounced during Ju in Li, which further indicates /do you > > think so?/ it's lordship of 6th and 3rd, being in lagna. > > For further information, just to let you know that mother and this > > young man recently left the home /run-away/ where they lived with > > /unsuspecting, still?/ father. > > > > Very chilly story, indeed. I have an impression that it's so much so > > that people feel uncomfortable to even consider this /have you noticed > > silence-lack of response?/ > > > > Best wishes, > > Anna > > > > Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 > > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk>> wrote: > > Dear Anna, > > > > 4th lord Saturn with Mars 7th lord and Moon the karaka for mother, going > > to the 12th and Venus the lord of the 8th in Papakartari occupying the > > 4th, does suggest a possibility of what you are guessing being right. I > > would consider Jupiter in Lagna as with him aspecting the 6th, 8th and > > Venus, if in 12th, the possibility of something like this occuring seems > > to be remote. > > > > Before coming to any definite conclusion, you would be well advised to > > look at the navamsha strength or weakness of the relevant planets. > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > 108ar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > I've recently come across one case labeled: 'suspects of incest'- So > > > sorry cannot share Birth data /delicate issue, indeed. Behaviorally, > > > /I mean actual behaviour/ this possibility is fairly likely! > > > > > > I am curious to see this astrologically. > > > > > > Libra lagna /son/, Venus in 4th, Sun Me in 5th, Rahu in 9 th, > > > Sa, Mo Mars in 12th. Ju on Lagna /or 12 in cuspal chart/ > > > /we have LL in mother's house, 4th Lord in a dreadful combination, in > > > 12th-bed pleasures? Moon is there and 7th Lord Mars conjoins 4th/and > > > 5th!!!/ Lord Saturn. What would any of you suggest/expect for this > > > poor 24 yr. old? > > > What kind of help can be introduced anyway, when such a taboo serious > > > issue is to be dealt with.. > > > > > > Sa conj Mars and combo squares nodes- man is running Rahu MD and has > > > been hospitalized as a suicide attempt- taken out by mother. > > > lots of juvenile psychopathy syndrome indicated behaviorally,which I > > > would not considered crucial under the circumstances, since it might > > > be his massive reaction to the general situation. > > > > > > What I am sure about is if "that' happened it was not by force. Astro > > > data seem to confirm? > > > > > > Incest? > > > What would be indications, in general? In this case I'd like to hear > > > your impressions, as well. > > > Hope you'll find this to be an interesting issue./as I did/ > > > Regards, > > > Anna > > > > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Hey All I dont get one point that why people are pointing towards 4th house ? According to definition of incest, it can happen between daughter and father, daughter and mom, son and father, son and mom, sister and sister and sister and brother. Oh, and one more thing, sometimes culture also plays its role. A Muslim can marry his cousin sister. its fine over there but its incest in Hinduism. And then which house does not represent incest ? 2nd house is of family. 3 house if of brother and sister 4house house is of mother 5 hosue is of son and daughter 6th house is of maternal side. 7th is spouse 8th .. i dont know 9th house is father 10th house is father ?? 11th house is siblings again 12th house ?... i dont know So almost all the houses are coming into picture. Why people are insisting only on 4th house ? Jagdish David Hawthorne <david (AT) iipa (DOT) net> wrote: dear anna and chandrashekhar: thank you for your posts and contributions to this list. on a personal note, i would have commented on the chart if birth data had been provided. in that way, i could have created the chart and taken planetary degrees, etc., into consideration, which i think are essential for interpretation. in this case, i think anna wanted to keep the data confidential. this may have reduced the amount of participation in the case study. best wishes, david hawthorne - Chandrashekhar Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:57 AM Re: Re: Incest Dear Anna, Your logic is right. Jupiter does act like 6th and 3rd lord in the Lagna. It is indeed a chilly story. I did notice that not many responded. That perhaps is because many felt the topic was sensitive/sordid. I to felt the same but could not stop giving my views. Take care, Chandrashekhar. 108ar wrote: > > Dear Chandashekhar, > > > Thank you for your valuable comment- which helps me get confirmation > of the approach and thinking process I've applied; suggestion/advice > on where to focus my attention further. > I hope you are doing fine and i am glad to notice that nothing can > stay in the way of your teaching and sharing jyotish knowledge. > As for Ju, you are right, and in fact I do consider Ju /in Libra/ as > being in lagna Libra- I just wanted to give more info re its position. > Confirming your opinion is the fact that suicidal thoughts of a young > man were pronounced during Ju in Li, which further indicates /do you > think so?/ it's lordship of 6th and 3rd, being in lagna. > For further information, just to let you know that mother and this > young man recently left the home /run-away/ where they lived with > /unsuspecting, still?/ father. > > Very chilly story, indeed. I have an impression that it's so much so > that people feel uncomfortable to even consider this /have you noticed > silence-lack of response?/ > > Best wishes, > Anna > > Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 (AT) (DOT) co.uk > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk>> wrote: > Dear Anna, > > 4th lord Saturn with Mars 7th lord and Moon the karaka for mother, going > to the 12th and Venus the lord of the 8th in Papakartari occupying the > 4th, does suggest a possibility of what you are guessing being right. I > would consider Jupiter in Lagna as with him aspecting the 6th, 8th and > Venus, if in 12th, the possibility of something like this occuring seems > to be remote. > > Before coming to any definite conclusion, you would be well advised to > look at the navamsha strength or weakness of the relevant planets. > > Chandrashekhar. > > 108ar wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > I've recently come across one case labeled: 'suspects of incest'- So > > sorry cannot share Birth data /delicate issue, indeed. Behaviorally, > > /I mean actual behaviour/ this possibility is fairly likely! > > > > I am curious to see this astrologically. > > > > Libra lagna /son/, Venus in 4th, Sun Me in 5th, Rahu in 9 th, > > Sa, Mo Mars in 12th. Ju on Lagna /or 12 in cuspal chart/ > > /we have LL in mother's house, 4th Lord in a dreadful combination, in > > 12th-bed pleasures? Moon is there and 7th Lord Mars conjoins 4th/and > > 5th!!!/ Lord Saturn. What would any of you suggest/expect for this > > poor 24 yr. old? > > What kind of help can be introduced anyway, when such a taboo serious > > issue is to be dealt with.. > > > > Sa conj Mars and combo squares nodes- man is running Rahu MD and has > > been hospitalized as a suicide attempt- taken out by mother. > > lots of juvenile psychopathy syndrome indicated behaviorally,which I > > would not considered crucial under the circumstances, since it might > > be his massive reaction to the general situation. > > > > What I am sure about is if "that' happened it was not by force. Astro > > data seem to confirm? > > > > Incest? > > What would be indications, in general? In this case I'd like to hear > > your impressions, as well. > > Hope you'll find this to be an interesting issue./as I did/ > > Regards, > > Anna > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 Dear Jagdish. The 4th house is prominent for such type of matters to view at, because that is the house through which the first education (Upbringing) comes through the mother,if the cultures so received are strong ,then its not easy for one to fall as prey, if the domestic affairs are housed comfortably, means if the home is a temple of understanding, love and strong bonds of affinity between the members of the peopleliving in that home, yet again. such type of incidents do not take place so easily, because the protection of the house is existing due to affectionate bindings of the family members, strong binding bewteen them which also creates security, to allow space for such untoward happennings. If the Mother is strong the children have strong convictions, and also keeps the Father and other Male members of the house, in place. If the 4th house is strong, the native would always find a place suitable for him to live which would grant him security and protection and peace and comfort,invariably how many times he may change his place of living. The Natural Karaka, Moon also would play an important role.But that is not the subject here. I would like to talk on your other points too, but probably in the evening,am in a hurry to leave somewhere for the day. regards, Bhaskar. , Prathamesn Chawan <upaoakcrest wrote: > > Hey All > > I dont get one point that why people are pointing towards 4th house ? > > According to definition of incest, it can happen between daughter and father, daughter and mom, son and father, son and mom, sister and sister and sister and brother. > > Oh, and one more thing, sometimes culture also plays its role. A Muslim can marry his cousin sister. its fine over there but its incest in Hinduism. > > And then which house does not represent incest ? > > 2nd house is of family. > 3 house if of brother and sister > 4house house is of mother > 5 hosue is of son and daughter > 6th house is of maternal side. > 7th is spouse > 8th .. i dont know > 9th house is father > 10th house is father ?? > 11th house is siblings again > 12th house ?... i dont know > > So almost all the houses are coming into picture. > > Why people are insisting only on 4th house ? > > Jagdish > > > > David Hawthorne <david wrote: dear anna and chandrashekhar: > > thank you for your posts and contributions to this list. > > on a personal note, i would have commented on the chart if birth data had been provided. > > in that way, i could have created the chart and taken planetary degrees, etc., into consideration, which i think are essential for interpretation. > > in this case, i think anna wanted to keep the data confidential. > > this may have reduced the amount of participation in the case study. > > best wishes, > > david hawthorne > - > Chandrashekhar > > Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:57 AM > Re: Re: Incest > > Dear Anna, > Your logic is right. Jupiter does act like 6th and 3rd lord in the > Lagna. It is indeed a chilly story. > > I did notice that not many responded. That perhaps is because many felt > the topic was sensitive/sordid. I to felt the same but could not stop > giving my views. > > Take care, > Chandrashekhar. > > 108ar wrote: > > > > Dear Chandashekhar, > > > > > > Thank you for your valuable comment- which helps me get confirmation > > of the approach and thinking process I've applied; suggestion/advice > > on where to focus my attention further. > > I hope you are doing fine and i am glad to notice that nothing can > > stay in the way of your teaching and sharing jyotish knowledge. > > As for Ju, you are right, and in fact I do consider Ju /in Libra/ as > > being in lagna Libra- I just wanted to give more info re its position. > > Confirming your opinion is the fact that suicidal thoughts of a young > > man were pronounced during Ju in Li, which further indicates /do you > > think so?/ it's lordship of 6th and 3rd, being in lagna. > > For further information, just to let you know that mother and this > > young man recently left the home /run-away/ where they lived with > > /unsuspecting, still?/ father. > > > > Very chilly story, indeed. I have an impression that it's so much so > > that people feel uncomfortable to even consider this /have you noticed > > silence-lack of response?/ > > > > Best wishes, > > Anna > > > > Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 > > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk>> wrote: > > Dear Anna, > > > > 4th lord Saturn with Mars 7th lord and Moon the karaka for mother, going > > to the 12th and Venus the lord of the 8th in Papakartari occupying the > > 4th, does suggest a possibility of what you are guessing being right. I > > would consider Jupiter in Lagna as with him aspecting the 6th, 8th and > > Venus, if in 12th, the possibility of something like this occuring seems > > to be remote. > > > > Before coming to any definite conclusion, you would be well advised to > > look at the navamsha strength or weakness of the relevant planets. > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > 108ar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > I've recently come across one case labeled: 'suspects of incest'- So > > > sorry cannot share Birth data /delicate issue, indeed. Behaviorally, > > > /I mean actual behaviour/ this possibility is fairly likely! > > > > > > I am curious to see this astrologically. > > > > > > Libra lagna /son/, Venus in 4th, Sun Me in 5th, Rahu in 9 th, > > > Sa, Mo Mars in 12th. Ju on Lagna /or 12 in cuspal chart/ > > > /we have LL in mother's house, 4th Lord in a dreadful combination, in > > > 12th-bed pleasures? Moon is there and 7th Lord Mars conjoins 4th/and > > > 5th!!!/ Lord Saturn. What would any of you suggest/expect for this > > > poor 24 yr. old? > > > What kind of help can be introduced anyway, when such a taboo serious > > > issue is to be dealt with.. > > > > > > Sa conj Mars and combo squares nodes- man is running Rahu MD and has > > > been hospitalized as a suicide attempt- taken out by mother. > > > lots of juvenile psychopathy syndrome indicated behaviorally,which I > > > would not considered crucial under the circumstances, since it might > > > be his massive reaction to the general situation. > > > > > > What I am sure about is if "that' happened it was not by force. Astro > > > data seem to confirm? > > > > > > Incest? > > > What would be indications, in general? In this case I'd like to hear > > > your impressions, as well. > > > Hope you'll find this to be an interesting issue./as I did/ > > > Regards, > > > Anna > > > > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 why, even in tamil nadu it is alright to marry one's maternal uncle (mother's brother) or paternal aunt's son (father's sister's son). these are allowed as a custom. it is another matter that these do account for a large number of congenital diseases with such kind of inbreeding among families related closely through blood. this practice is widely followed for many other (socio-economic) reasons. some of those i know of 1)both families have a common ancestor and have large land holdings and immovable properties. this is done so that the property is not fragmented due to dowries and the like but kept within the family for generations. 2)there is also this belief that a sister when married off belongs to another gotram, another family (she takes on another family name,etc). should she conceive it is argued that the seed comes from a person belonging to a different gotra, family, etc. hence this child belongs to that other family and not this one even though related very closely. likewise it is for the brother's wife who comes from a different gotra, family in which case the kshetra is different here. therefore, the marriage between the son and the daughter of a sister and brother are not incest in the strictest of terms. hence it is allowed by custom among many castes like reddys, kammas, orthodox brahmins, etc. these prospective grooms within the family are popularly known as maama or mora payyann, baava, athaan, etc. but more recently the medical field with the help of media has spread the word that this could be harmful for the next generation of children and i do believe that this kind of inter-family marriages have come down drastically except in a few stray cases. few bat an eyelid for an inter-state or inter-caste marriages which are not considered taboo anymore. these days its the inter-national ones which are quite common. i think its got to do more with women's education and economic independance that we see the changes we do. mahalakshmi D Ramapriya <ramapriya.d > wrote: On 12/3/06, Prathamesn Chawan <upaoakcrest > wrote: > > According to definition of incest, it can happen between daughter and > father, daughter and mom, son and father, son and mom, sister and sister and > sister and brother. > Father and mother? Oh, and one more thing, sometimes culture also plays its role. A Muslim can > marry his cousin sister. its fine over there but its incest in Hinduism. > Oh, how far away are you from Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh? License to loathsome incestuous marriages are very rife thereabouts. I had a classmate of mine marrying his sister's daughter. I recall throwing up on his wedding invitation when he told me. It isn't illegit in some communities like Gowdas and Reddys to marry among children of bros and sisses. Lord... only halfwits can grow up playing with little household children they later sleep with. While we're on this, the case of Zoroastrians in India is at once curious and sad. It's a religious bind whereby they're forbidden to look beyond Zoroastrians and since their general pool has decreased dramatically, you often find siblings hand in hand on beaches. Theirs is one exemplary case of how an ideology has held siege human intellect to a point of self-destruction. Cheers, Ramapriya PS: There's nothing like 'cousin sister'; it's either 'cousin' or 'sis' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 in this case obviously its the mother (4H) and son relationship i guess. mahalakshmi Prathamesn Chawan <upaoakcrest > wrote: Hey All I dont get one point that why people are pointing towards 4th house ? According to definition of incest, it can happen between daughter and father, daughter and mom, son and father, son and mom, sister and sister and sister and brother. Oh, and one more thing, sometimes culture also plays its role. A Muslim can marry his cousin sister. its fine over there but its incest in Hinduism. And then which house does not represent incest ? 2nd house is of family. 3 house if of brother and sister 4house house is of mother 5 hosue is of son and daughter 6th house is of maternal side. 7th is spouse 8th .. i dont know 9th house is father 10th house is father ?? 11th house is siblings again 12th house ?... i dont know So almost all the houses are coming into picture. Why people are insisting only on 4th house ? Jagdish David Hawthorne <david (AT) iipa (DOT) net> wrote: dear anna and chandrashekhar: thank you for your posts and contributions to this list. on a personal note, i would have commented on the chart if birth data had been provided. in that way, i could have created the chart and taken planetary degrees, etc., into consideration, which i think are essential for interpretation. in this case, i think anna wanted to keep the data confidential. this may have reduced the amount of participation in the case study. best wishes, david hawthorne - Chandrashekhar Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:57 AM Re: Re: Incest Dear Anna, Your logic is right. Jupiter does act like 6th and 3rd lord in the Lagna. It is indeed a chilly story. I did notice that not many responded. That perhaps is because many felt the topic was sensitive/sordid. I to felt the same but could not stop giving my views. Take care, Chandrashekhar. 108ar wrote: > > Dear Chandashekhar, > > > Thank you for your valuable comment- which helps me get confirmation > of the approach and thinking process I've applied; suggestion/advice > on where to focus my attention further. > I hope you are doing fine and i am glad to notice that nothing can > stay in the way of your teaching and sharing jyotish knowledge. > As for Ju, you are right, and in fact I do consider Ju /in Libra/ as > being in lagna Libra- I just wanted to give more info re its position. > Confirming your opinion is the fact that suicidal thoughts of a young > man were pronounced during Ju in Li, which further indicates /do you > think so?/ it's lordship of 6th and 3rd, being in lagna. > For further information, just to let you know that mother and this > young man recently left the home /run-away/ where they lived with > /unsuspecting, still?/ father. > > Very chilly story, indeed. I have an impression that it's so much so > that people feel uncomfortable to even consider this /have you noticed > silence-lack of response?/ > > Best wishes, > Anna > > Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 (AT) (DOT) co.uk > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk>> wrote: > Dear Anna, > > 4th lord Saturn with Mars 7th lord and Moon the karaka for mother, going > to the 12th and Venus the lord of the 8th in Papakartari occupying the > 4th, does suggest a possibility of what you are guessing being right. I > would consider Jupiter in Lagna as with him aspecting the 6th, 8th and > Venus, if in 12th, the possibility of something like this occuring seems > to be remote. > > Before coming to any definite conclusion, you would be well advised to > look at the navamsha strength or weakness of the relevant planets. > > Chandrashekhar. > > 108ar wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > I've recently come across one case labeled: 'suspects of incest'- So > > sorry cannot share Birth data /delicate issue, indeed. Behaviorally, > > /I mean actual behaviour/ this possibility is fairly likely! > > > > I am curious to see this astrologically. > > > > Libra lagna /son/, Venus in 4th, Sun Me in 5th, Rahu in 9 th, > > Sa, Mo Mars in 12th. Ju on Lagna /or 12 in cuspal chart/ > > /we have LL in mother's house, 4th Lord in a dreadful combination, in > > 12th-bed pleasures? Moon is there and 7th Lord Mars conjoins 4th/and > > 5th!!!/ Lord Saturn. What would any of you suggest/expect for this > > poor 24 yr. old? > > What kind of help can be introduced anyway, when such a taboo serious > > issue is to be dealt with.. > > > > Sa conj Mars and combo squares nodes- man is running Rahu MD and has > > been hospitalized as a suicide attempt- taken out by mother. > > lots of juvenile psychopathy syndrome indicated behaviorally,which I > > would not considered crucial under the circumstances, since it might > > be his massive reaction to the general situation. > > > > What I am sure about is if "that' happened it was not by force. Astro > > data seem to confirm? > > > > Incest? > > What would be indications, in general? In this case I'd like to hear > > your impressions, as well. > > Hope you'll find this to be an interesting issue./as I did/ > > Regards, > > Anna > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Dear Chandrashekhar and David, I agree with you- it's hard to discuss the chart without the data- one needs at least an agreement for using/discussing the chart- confidentiality is very important and is directly proportional to the 'level of pathology', I'd say. that's a serious disadvantage for studying various pathological patterns. I used to study the charts in my psy practice, without sharing the data with others, of course- it's hard/impossible to get, OR even ask for permission to discuss the confidential issues- even for JUST psy. disorders, bipolar, COD etc, and even more so with multiple disorders /like this one involving psychological and social taboos/. On this level I'd just like to point to some details. I've seen rahu/Moon contact happening quite often in psy. disorders- in this particular case Virgo Moon aspects Rahu/ketu axis, rashi dristi, and Mars&Saturn exactly square the same axis. As I said, I did take Moon in consideration, noted aspect Vi/Ge, rasi dristi only, tend not to consider full graha dristi when the orbis is too big, as is the case with Moon here. Further, here we have suicidal tendencies as well- I would 'blame' Ju for that /onset during Ju tr. Lagna seems to be empirical evidence? I appreciate all listers' efforts to consider various angles, including social, with the limited info in this case. Best regards, Anna Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: Dear David, Yes, that could have been one of the reasons. Chandrashekhar. David Hawthorne wrote: > > dear anna and chandrashekhar: > > thank you for your posts and contributions to this list. > > on a personal note, i would have commented on the chart if birth data > had been provided. > > in that way, i could have created the chart and taken planetary > degrees, etc., into consideration, which i think are essential for > interpretation. > > in this case, i think anna wanted to keep the data confidential. > > this may have reduced the amount of participation in the case study. > > best wishes, > > david hawthorne > - > Chandrashekhar > <%40> > Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:57 AM > Re: Re: Incest > > Dear Anna, > Your logic is right. Jupiter does act like 6th and 3rd lord in the > Lagna. It is indeed a chilly story. > > I did notice that not many responded. That perhaps is because many felt > the topic was sensitive/sordid. I to felt the same but could not stop > giving my views. > > Take care, > Chandrashekhar. > > 108ar wrote: > > > > Dear Chandashekhar, > > > > > > Thank you for your valuable comment- which helps me get confirmation > > of the approach and thinking process I've applied; suggestion/advice > > on where to focus my attention further. > > I hope you are doing fine and i am glad to notice that nothing can > > stay in the way of your teaching and sharing jyotish knowledge. > > As for Ju, you are right, and in fact I do consider Ju /in Libra/ as > > being in lagna Libra- I just wanted to give more info re its position. > > Confirming your opinion is the fact that suicidal thoughts of a young > > man were pronounced during Ju in Li, which further indicates /do you > > think so?/ it's lordship of 6th and 3rd, being in lagna. > > For further information, just to let you know that mother and this > > young man recently left the home /run-away/ where they lived with > > /unsuspecting, still?/ father. > > > > Very chilly story, indeed. I have an impression that it's so much so > > that people feel uncomfortable to even consider this /have you noticed > > silence-lack of response?/ > > > > Best wishes, > > Anna > > > > Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 (AT) (DOT) co.uk > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk> > > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk>> wrote: > > Dear Anna, > > > > 4th lord Saturn with Mars 7th lord and Moon the karaka for mother, going > > to the 12th and Venus the lord of the 8th in Papakartari occupying the > > 4th, does suggest a possibility of what you are guessing being right. I > > would consider Jupiter in Lagna as with him aspecting the 6th, 8th and > > Venus, if in 12th, the possibility of something like this occuring seems > > to be remote. > > > > Before coming to any definite conclusion, you would be well advised to > > look at the navamsha strength or weakness of the relevant planets. > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > 108ar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > I've recently come across one case labeled: 'suspects of incest'- So > > > sorry cannot share Birth data /delicate issue, indeed. Behaviorally, > > > /I mean actual behaviour/ this possibility is fairly likely! > > > > > > I am curious to see this astrologically. > > > > > > Libra lagna /son/, Venus in 4th, Sun Me in 5th, Rahu in 9 th, > > > Sa, Mo Mars in 12th. Ju on Lagna /or 12 in cuspal chart/ > > > /we have LL in mother's house, 4th Lord in a dreadful combination, in > > > 12th-bed pleasures? Moon is there and 7th Lord Mars conjoins 4th/and > > > 5th!!!/ Lord Saturn. What would any of you suggest/expect for this > > > poor 24 yr. old? > > > What kind of help can be introduced anyway, when such a taboo serious > > > issue is to be dealt with.. > > > > > > Sa conj Mars and combo squares nodes- man is running Rahu MD and has > > > been hospitalized as a suicide attempt- taken out by mother. > > > lots of juvenile psychopathy syndrome indicated behaviorally,which I > > > would not considered crucial under the circumstances, since it might > > > be his massive reaction to the general situation. > > > > > > What I am sure about is if "that' happened it was not by force. Astro > > > data seem to confirm? > > > > > > Incest? > > > What would be indications, in general? In this case I'd like to hear > > > your impressions, as well. > > > Hope you'll find this to be an interesting issue./as I did/ > > > Regards, > > > Anna > > > > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 On 12/4/06, 108ar <bona_mente > wrote: > > > Ramaprya "...but you miss > one essential point- naturalness" > ???? > Mercury, hello- > did you ask the owner 'logical' Q, how is 'naturalness' determined, before > he posted this? I bet you didn't, LOL > Anna > What's natural isn't subjective is it? Ramapriya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 dear ramapriya i am 'not' advocating this type of marriage nor am i 'defending' the same. i have stated only the reasons which are usually forwarded by people who practice this custom. you may be the priest's son who knows this crap but many on this list may not be aware of it. i have also mentioned about the diseases passed on to the next gen. surely this should have served as a clue that i dint advocate or defend this. about the siss' kids marrying each other - two kshetras from the same family were not allowed as also between brothers' kids by our ancestors for a similar reason. mahalakshmi D Ramapriya <ramapriya.d > wrote: On 12/3/06, mahaluxmi iyer <astromahaluxmi (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: > > why, even in tamil nadu it is alright to marry one's maternal uncle > (mother's brother) or paternal aunt's son (father's sister's son). these are > allowed as a custom. it is another matter that these do account for a large > number of congenital diseases with such kind of inbreeding among families > related closely through blood. > this practice is widely followed for many other (socio-economic) reasons. > some of those i know of > 1)both families have a common ancestor and have large land holdings and > immovable properties. this is done so that the property is not fragmented > due to dowries and the like but kept within the family for generations. > Halfwit generations designed to have medical and intellectual limitations that'll guarantee dissolution if not fragmentation of the immovable property 2)there is also this belief that a sister when married off belongs to > another gotram, another family (she takes on another family name,etc). > should she conceive it is argued that the seed comes from a person belonging > to a different gotra, family, etc. hence this child belongs to that other > family and not this one even though related very closely. > I've heard all that crap too. Marrying the children of your mom's bro is ok but not a mom's sis' child. Logic? My foot! Having been born into an Iyengar priest's family myself, I was exposed to all this tosh from early on in life but my dad to his credit never attempted defending the indefensible. therefore, the marriage between the son and the daughter of a sister and > brother are not incest in the strictest of terms. hence it is allowed by > custom among many castes like reddys, kammas, orthodox brahmins, etc. these > prospective grooms within the family are popularly known as maama or mora > payyann, baava, athaan, etc. > but more recently the medical field with the help of media has spread the > word that this could be harmful for the next generation of children and i do > believe that this kind of inter-family marriages have come down drastically > except in a few stray cases. > few bat an eyelid for an inter-state or inter-caste marriages which are > not considered taboo anymore. these days its the inter-national ones which > are quite common. i think its got to do more with women's education and > economic independance that we see the changes we do. > mahalakshmi > Dear Mahalakshmi, I don't agree with your view on inter-cousin marriages not constituting incest but entirely respect your right to hold an opinion. Cheers, Ramapriya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Dear Mahalaxmiji, Apart from Medical reasons which we know of now, after science has pointed out these to us, were there any other reasons for not marrying within the family ? Spiritual ? In most traditional families, including mines, we do not marry within the Gotra. Since within the family we do not discuss such taboo topics, I asked myself what must be reason . Gotra means a community headed in the distant past among whom an individual familys ancestors, were disciples sort of under a particular Rishi . (Please correct me if I am wrong , I am not a Brahmin by birth so do not know the intracasies), Like Bharadwaj, Kashyap,Lehans, etc. In the olden days the disciples studying under any Guru -the group were known as Guru Bhais and Guru Bahens, mean to say considered as brothers and sisters. So now their descendants follow the same tradition ? Like we also saw in the story of Shukracharyas daughter. The person she loved, was not ready to marry her as he considered her as a sister being the Gurus daughter. Is this the reason why does not marry under the same gotra ? In my family too cousins marrying each other is not allowed or talked or even imagined about. In my teenage and childhood life my views may have been different, but now I too agree and confirm to this view. I consider this as incest. These are my personal views, just frank enough to put on board. Best wishes, Bhaskar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Dear Friends, I wish to say, in a laymans words, Why I would Consider physical relations between own cousins too as Incest ? If a Army mans son who is not in army but does a brave and couraegous act, his father will exclaim with pride "He is my son. My blood. He has to be brave like his father". Or if a daughter is beautiful her mother may say "Oh shes my blood. Shes taken on me so shes beautiful and smart ". In all these cases the blood is the common factor. I do not know about scientific explanations. But even the Maternal Uncles children would have some part of the blood which is same as the mothers, or in paternal Uncles children too some part of the blood would be same as fathers (1/2 blood). Now when we talk of copulation between these which is the natural result of marriage, it then amounts to spoiling own fathers or mothers blood which is commonly acknowledged by all as incest. hence the connection seems to be logical and conclusive. But as mentioned, these are personal comments, so no one may take offence please. Best wishes, Bhaskar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 dear bhaskar for medical reasons. that is why of recent there's a change in attitude where this custom is concerned. but we hear in the interiors it still exists. you are right about the gotras which is otherwise known as sa-gotram. you have mentioned the rishis names after which these gotrams derive their names. also it means we come from that particular lineage. my father's family belongs to the kashyaba gotram. i am married into a family whose gotra is garga. yes incest does mean an impure or an unchaste union. this is true of people who are looked upon with respect and to whom we owe our very existence on earth like father/mother or other very close relations which you have rightly mentioned in your mail. these are truly shocking to hear. come to think of what the person who has to live under the same roof goes through in the hell called home. best wishes mahalakshmi Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: Dear Mahalaxmiji, Apart from Medical reasons which we know of now, after science has pointed out these to us, were there any other reasons for not marrying within the family ? Spiritual ? In most traditional families, including mines, we do not marry within the Gotra. Since within the family we do not discuss such taboo topics, I asked myself what must be reason . Gotra means a community headed in the distant past among whom an individual familys ancestors, were disciples sort of under a particular Rishi . (Please correct me if I am wrong , I am not a Brahmin by birth so do not know the intracasies), Like Bharadwaj, Kashyap,Lehans, etc. In the olden days the disciples studying under any Guru -the group were known as Guru Bhais and Guru Bahens, mean to say considered as brothers and sisters. So now their descendants follow the same tradition ? Like we also saw in the story of Shukracharyas daughter. The person she loved, was not ready to marry her as he considered her as a sister being the Gurus daughter. Is this the reason why does not marry under the same gotra ? In my family too cousins marrying each other is not allowed or talked or even imagined about. In my teenage and childhood life my views may have been different, but now I too agree and confirm to this view. I consider this as incest. These are my personal views, just frank enough to put on board. Best wishes, Bhaskar. Find out what India is talking about on - Answers India Send FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Messenger Version 8. Get it NOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Dear Anna, You are right. Jupiter in lagna does seem to tend to distort judgement. Chandrashekhar. 108ar wrote: > > Dear Chandrashekhar and David, > > I agree with you- it's hard to discuss the chart without the data- one > needs at least an agreement for using/discussing the chart- > confidentiality is very important and is directly proportional to the > 'level of pathology', I'd say. that's a serious disadvantage for > studying various pathological patterns. I used to study the charts in > my psy practice, without sharing the data with others, of course- it's > hard/impossible to get, OR even ask for permission to discuss the > confidential issues- even for JUST psy. disorders, bipolar, COD etc, > and even more so with multiple disorders /like this one involving > psychological and social taboos/. > > On this level I'd just like to point to some details. > I've seen rahu/Moon contact happening quite often in psy. disorders- > in this particular case Virgo Moon aspects Rahu/ketu axis, rashi > dristi, and Mars&Saturn exactly square the same axis. As I said, I did > take Moon in consideration, noted aspect Vi/Ge, rasi dristi only, tend > not to consider full graha dristi when the orbis is too big, as is the > case with Moon here. > > Further, here we have suicidal tendencies as well- I would 'blame' Ju > for that /onset during Ju tr. Lagna seems to be empirical evidence? > > I appreciate all listers' efforts to consider various angles, > including social, > with the limited info in this case. > > Best regards, > Anna > Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 (AT) (DOT) co.uk > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk>> wrote: > Dear David, > > Yes, that could have been one of the reasons. > > Chandrashekhar. > > David Hawthorne wrote: > > > > dear anna and chandrashekhar: > > > > thank you for your posts and contributions to this list. > > > > on a personal note, i would have commented on the chart if birth data > > had been provided. > > > > in that way, i could have created the chart and taken planetary > > degrees, etc., into consideration, which i think are essential for > > interpretation. > > > > in this case, i think anna wanted to keep the data confidential. > > > > this may have reduced the amount of participation in the case study. > > > > best wishes, > > > > david hawthorne > > - > > Chandrashekhar > > > <%40> > <%40> > > Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:57 AM > > Re: Re: Incest > > > > Dear Anna, > > Your logic is right. Jupiter does act like 6th and 3rd lord in the > > Lagna. It is indeed a chilly story. > > > > I did notice that not many responded. That perhaps is because many felt > > the topic was sensitive/sordid. I to felt the same but could not stop > > giving my views. > > > > Take care, > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > 108ar wrote: > > > > > > Dear Chandashekhar, > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your valuable comment- which helps me get confirmation > > > of the approach and thinking process I've applied; suggestion/advice > > > on where to focus my attention further. > > > I hope you are doing fine and i am glad to notice that nothing can > > > stay in the way of your teaching and sharing jyotish knowledge. > > > As for Ju, you are right, and in fact I do consider Ju /in Libra/ as > > > being in lagna Libra- I just wanted to give more info re its position. > > > Confirming your opinion is the fact that suicidal thoughts of a young > > > man were pronounced during Ju in Li, which further indicates /do you > > > think so?/ it's lordship of 6th and 3rd, being in lagna. > > > For further information, just to let you know that mother and this > > > young man recently left the home /run-away/ where they lived with > > > /unsuspecting, still?/ father. > > > > > > Very chilly story, indeed. I have an impression that it's so much so > > > that people feel uncomfortable to even consider this /have you noticed > > > silence-lack of response?/ > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > Anna > > > > > > Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 (AT) (DOT) co.uk > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk> > > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk> > > > <chandrashekhar46%40.co.uk>> wrote: > > > Dear Anna, > > > > > > 4th lord Saturn with Mars 7th lord and Moon the karaka for mother, > going > > > to the 12th and Venus the lord of the 8th in Papakartari occupying the > > > 4th, does suggest a possibility of what you are guessing being > right. I > > > would consider Jupiter in Lagna as with him aspecting the 6th, 8th and > > > Venus, if in 12th, the possibility of something like this occuring > seems > > > to be remote. > > > > > > Before coming to any definite conclusion, you would be well advised to > > > look at the navamsha strength or weakness of the relevant planets. > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > 108ar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > I've recently come across one case labeled: 'suspects of incest'- So > > > > sorry cannot share Birth data /delicate issue, indeed. Behaviorally, > > > > /I mean actual behaviour/ this possibility is fairly likely! > > > > > > > > I am curious to see this astrologically. > > > > > > > > Libra lagna /son/, Venus in 4th, Sun Me in 5th, Rahu in 9 th, > > > > Sa, Mo Mars in 12th. Ju on Lagna /or 12 in cuspal chart/ > > > > /we have LL in mother's house, 4th Lord in a dreadful > combination, in > > > > 12th-bed pleasures? Moon is there and 7th Lord Mars conjoins 4th/and > > > > 5th!!!/ Lord Saturn. What would any of you suggest/expect for this > > > > poor 24 yr. old? > > > > What kind of help can be introduced anyway, when such a taboo > serious > > > > issue is to be dealt with.. > > > > > > > > Sa conj Mars and combo squares nodes- man is running Rahu MD and has > > > > been hospitalized as a suicide attempt- taken out by mother. > > > > lots of juvenile psychopathy syndrome indicated behaviorally,which I > > > > would not considered crucial under the circumstances, since it might > > > > be his massive reaction to the general situation. > > > > > > > > What I am sure about is if "that' happened it was not by force. > Astro > > > > data seem to confirm? > > > > > > > > Incest? > > > > What would be indications, in general? In this case I'd like to hear > > > > your impressions, as well. > > > > Hope you'll find this to be an interesting issue./as I did/ > > > > Regards, > > > > Anna > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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