Guest guest Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 m. wrote: It follows that humans must be born with a universal innate grammar, which is determinate and has a highly organized directive component, and enables the language learner to ascertain and categorize language heard into a system. bishadi wrote: Please my friend, that is like saying I can go to China and have a conversation with anyone. ------------- You are missing the point. Saying humans are born with a universal innate grammar means humans have the ability to grasp learn language. The prior knowledge that "words have meaning" is innate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Shastra tells us that ether is actually the product of tama-guna and is initiated by the collective false ego of the mahat-tattva and is generated by the marginal potency of the Lord which we know as jiva-shakti. The collective jivas of the mahat-tattva generate the ethereal element out of the false ego of Lordship over matter. So, the sky is a product of the collective ignorance of all the conditioned jivas that are of the mahat-tattva. Sky is the first element generated by the false ego of the jiva-shakti in the mahat-tattva. Leave it up to a bunch of ignorant jivas to create a sky for them to be false lords over. Ether is also the constituent element of material sound. We make sounds by manipulating ether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.5.25 tāmasād api bhūtāder vikurvāṇād abhūn nabhaḥ tasya mātrā guṇaḥ śabdo lińgaḿ yad draṣṭṛ-dṛśyayoḥ SYNONYMS tāmasāt — from the darkness of false ego; api — certainly; bhūta-ādeḥ — of the material elements; vikurvāṇāt — because of transformation; abhūt — generated; nabhaḥ — the sky; tasya — its; mātrā — subtle form; guṇaḥ — quality; śabdaḥ — sound; lińgam — characteristics; yat — as its; draṣṭṛ — the seer; dṛśyayoḥ — of what is seen. TRANSLATION From the darkness of false ego, the first of the five elements, namely the sky, is generated. Its subtle form is the quality of sound, exactly as the seer is in relationship with the seen. PURPORT The five elements, namely sky, air, fire, water and earth, are all but different qualities of the darkness of false ego. This means that the false ego in the sum total form of mahat-tattva is generated from the marginal potency of the Lord, and due to this false ego of lording it over the material creation, ingredients are generated for the false enjoyment of the living being. The living being is practically the dominating factor over the material elements as the enjoyer, though the background is the Supreme Lord. Factually, save and except the Lord, no one can be called the enjoyer, but the living entity falsely desires to become the enjoyer. This is the origin of false ego. When the bewildered living being desires this, the shadow elements are generated by the will of the Lord, and the living entities are allowed to run after them as after a phantasmagoria. It is said that first the tan-mātrā sound is created and then the sky, and in this verse it is confirmed that actually it is so, but sound is the subtle form of the sky, and the distinction is like that between the seer and the seen. The sound is the representation of the actual object, as the sound produced speaking of the object gives an idea of the description of the object. Therefore sound is the subtle characteristic of the object. Similarly, sound representation of the Lord, in terms of His characteristics, is the complete form of the Lord, as was seen by Vasudeva and Mahārāja Daśaratha, the fathers of Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Rāma. The sound representation of the Lord is nondifferent from the Lord Himself because the Lord and His representation in sound are absolute knowledge. Lord Caitanya has instructed us that in the holy name of the Lord, as sound representation of the Lord, all the potencies of the Lord are invested. Thus one can immediately enjoy the association of the Lord by the pure vibration of the sound representation of His holy name, and the concept of the Lord is immediately manifested before the pure devotee. A pure devotee, therefore, is not aloof from the Lord even for a moment. The holy name of the Lord, as recommended in the śāstras — Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare — may therefore be constantly chanted by the devotee aspiring to be constantly in touch with the Supreme Lord. One who is thus able to associate with the Lord is sure to be delivered from the darkness of the created world, which is a product of false ego (tamasi mā jyotir gama). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 m. wrote:It follows that humans must be born with a universal innate grammar, which is determinate and has a highly organized directive component, and enables the language learner to ascertain and categorize language heard into a system. bishadi wrote: Please my friend, that is like saying I can go to China and have a conversation with anyone. ------------- You are missing the point. Saying humans are born with a universal innate grammar means humans have the ability to grasp learn language. The prior knowledge that "words have meaning" is innate. But 'four five four' means something different in spanish. and when a guy gets this ........... Ether is also the constituent element of material sound. We make sounds by manipulating ether Then we know language or the proper use of it is a wee bit short for the majority on this globe to ever ever ever believe or even consider relevant but reflect the depth of one not so well learned. (still a puppy) So language is learned as well as concepts of thought or even descriptions. For example I say 'life' is energy upon mass and from that first beginning step, evolution begins but 'life' in today's description has a whole bunch of 'principles of majority' that define that word and I am not a good POM POM girl ..........ether! So I offered a concept about what this 'ether' is and some guy throws an old book at it. 2006 buddy, kali over.... time to set the tone and describe proper for the kids ... OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nityanand_2002 Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 The ether is the base of the creation.Let me eaxplain to you. the panch tattvas are as follows: 1. Earth ( solid) 2. Water ( liquid) 3. Air ( gas) 4. fire ( energy) 5. akash ( ether ) from above it is clear that in the creation a matter can be transformed from one in to another by either extracting or giving energy.And the whole activity takes place in ether. Ether is a mind of a normal human being.where in allthe activities takes place.If there is no mind then the activities will not take place.Similarly if there is no ether than the physical,astral or causal activities will not take place.Ether can be considered as that center around which the whole creation circles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 The ether is the base of the creation.Let me eaxplain to you. the panch tattvas are as follows: 1. Earth ( solid) 2. Water ( liquid) 3. Air ( gas) 4. fire ( energy) 5. akash ( ether ) from above it is clear that in the creation a matter can be transformed from one in to another by either extracting or giving energy.And the whole activity takes place in ether. IN time! Ether is a mind of a normal human being.where in allthe activities takes place.If there is no mind then the activities will not take place.Similarly if there is no ether than the physical,astral or causal activities will not take place.Ether can be considered as that center around which the whole creation circles like I said, That ether is ‘time.’ Solution; nothing can be measured without time. No define; no time! It is why ‘everything’ is as One: any descriptions; a time constraint. Ask the master or Guru of choice this question; ‘is time is not measured, in reality?’ It is why when we 'center' or humble ourselves 'enlightened' time is not an issue, we know to the 'total' and all time is at once. If you like I can go into your own book and show these but then I will ask for your commitment otherwise please read a little more before trying to redirect the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krishnadasa Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 It’s alright! How could one police the police without good basics, eh! Nothing really unique coming from me other than the language; English. All over the globe the teachers talk funny and why there are so many differences in the message. I think you understood the idea mentioned without being too far gone. At least I am not suggesting little blue men or Immaculate Conception. No speakee tat lingo … If you were to split everything in half as far as you can go, yep … “everyting a wave dude.’ Like the rock thrown onto the pond ….. it continues with or without ‘you’ knowing it. Memories are what this body (you) experienced but yet once ‘felt’ the ‘total’ also knew. ( a conscious thought ) Instinctive! Yet to understand how energy is affected by other energy upon other mass, then when a body is born within a time period or as currently suggested astrological ‘date,’ upon your conscious birth these can have effects to the born ‘personality.’ No ‘remembered’ anything. Memories are fixed within the Glial of the brain/nervous system; fact! Everything else is immediate and if set as predetermined; instinctive; to survive or compassionate; observant to the ‘total’ or ‘other than the self.’ It is why a baby can slap his lil’brother for a toy and the parents just says, ”don’t do that, play nice and treat him as you would like to be treated,’ Instinctively; that baby is surviving …. But to be correct we cannot survive without the brother and why compassion became increasingly important for life to continue; so the parent within conscious understanding knows to teach the babe to create the memories none are born with. those who want to convey use the simplest lagauge, else they just show themsleves to be bombastic.....Itzs Coz brits who invaded using theri trickery Englsih prevails the world else???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 those who want to convey use the simplest lagauge, else they just show themsleves to be bombastic.....Itzs Coz brits who invaded using theri trickery Englsih prevails the world else???? A wise old Owl sitting in an Oak The more he saw, the less he spoke The less he spoke the more he heard Why cant we all be like that bird!!! then explain what that means you spoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 A wise old Owl sitting in an OakThe more he saw, the less he spoke The less he spoke the more he heard Why cant we all be like that bird!!!then explain what that means you spoke Owls aren't wise. They are actually inauspicious animals. I have been attacked by ghosts who used the screeching of an owl to pierce the ether and attack my body. Owls are no good. I always had to go out and throw rocks at them when they were in trees around my house in the mountains of California. Owls are in the mode of ignorance big time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm Posted December 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 The ether is the base of the creation.Let me eaxplain to you. the panch tattvas are as follows: 1. Earth ( solid) 2. Water ( liquid) 3. Air ( gas) 4. fire ( energy) 5. akash ( ether ) from above it is clear that in the creation a matter can be transformed from one in to another by either extracting or giving energy.And the whole activity takes place in ether. Ether is a mind of a normal human being.where in allthe activities takes place.If there is no mind then the activities will not take place.Similarly if there is no ether than the physical,astral or causal activities will not take place.Ether can be considered as that center around which the whole creation circles Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies. - are the mentioned "minds" the same? than i can ask- what is a mind? shanti:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies. - are the mentioned "minds" the same? than i can ask- what is a mind? shanti:) "Mind over matter" "The ether is the base of the creation.Let me eaxplain to you." You have no idea how often I have pondered that very line of thought. If a conscious thing can become a part of the total just by humble observance where time does not maintain locality with the ability to 'create' does this equate to the mind creating the existance? I cannot answer this. "The ether is the base of the creation.Let me eaxplain to you." please do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Subjective Evolution Of Consciousness by Muralidhar das <i>a disciple of Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj of Nabdwip this old article is a summary of the teachings of Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj in regards to "Sankhya" philosophy</i> Objective evolution is the theory of Darwin, that from the stones and chemicals the evolution of life is occurring. A gradual evolving of consciousness. Objective matter evolves and creates consciousness. That is the theory of objective evolution. What is objective, what is physical, that is existing first, then by its development life is coming. Consciousness is coming from stone. But without a subject an object cannot stand, cannot exist. The conscious subject is the primary substance and whatever is felt or percieved is only an idea within cosciousness. Consciousness is first. It would certainly be a wonderful miracle if stone could produce the soul, but it is easier and more reasonable for us to think that the soul has produced the conception of stone. In the soul there are many conceptions and one conception is that of stone. Whatever I feel, it is only a part of consciousness. Everything is an idea. The vedanta vicara (understanding) is that consciousness is producing everything. Knowledge and experience come to us from different planes of existence. There is pratyaksa, the sense experience of one's own body and the knowledge that comes from that experience. Then from the experience of others and their recorded knowledge we also are able to understand many things. A second type of knowledge. An example of this is the newspaper. The knowledge learned from reading is not knowledge gained through our direct sense experience, but through the sense experience of others. This is the second class of knowledge. The third level of experience is when there is almost no percepual experience but still some sort of experience is there, as in the case when on waking from sound sleep a person says "I slept very heavily". There is a sort of experience that develops from that region. The yogi and the jnani, when they enter into samadhi, they also have a similar experience to that. An experience of nondifferentiated existence. This sort of experience has been reported and discussed in the Upanisads: an experience that is neither the product of one's own sense experience nor the product of any other person's sense experience. The experience of deep, deep sleep. An experience independent of sense experience. Ramanujacarya says that there is a more deep experience than this. Knowledge of a fourth plane is possible. Knowledge of the Adhoksaja plane. When God, the super-subjective person, has given some experience within me, I can feel that the higher type of illuminating knowledge has descended in me, in my conscious area, and I can feel something which cannot be experienced in this world. A new type of knowledge I have come in connection with. But when that insight given by God is withdrawn, we have no way to grasp it by our own power or strength. The direct perception of God's existence is adhoksaja knowlege: vaikuntha jnana (knowledge of the transcendental plane of existence). That knowledge can descend in our area of understanding and again that knowledge can withdraw - of its own accord. We cannot but admit the possibility of such transcendental knowledge. It supercedes all our personal efforts and according to its sweet will it comes down to us. Knowledge of the presence of God descends into our area of existence and then withdraws. Very subtle, very fine. Very independent in its nature, is this knowledge of the transcendental plane of existence. But still it is there. It is adhoksaja, transcendental consciousness. Sri Caitanya, with reference from Bhagavatam, says that there is a fifth plane known as aprakrata. This adhoksaja plane is grand and wonderful, and knowledge of the adhoksaja transcendental plane of existence is not similar to knowledge of this world of our experience. But the aprakrata plane is very similar to this mundane plane of existence. The aprakrata plane is the land of Sri Krishna, which seems similar to this world where we experience sound, vision, touch, etc. In this fifth plane the awe, reverance and power of the fourth plane (adhoksaja) is not conspicuous. The land of Krishna is very similar to this mundane world, yet it is the supreme most quarter. Srila Rupa Gosvami says that a superficial study of the literature of the Veda will frustrate you. But if with a positive mind and by the grace of the devotee you go to look into the scriptures then you will find the principle sruti (message) is there. The words in the scriptures are persuading us, or leading us towards the higher conception. The whole object of all the sounds in existence is to guide our understanding towards that central sound, that central plane of consiousness found in the names and words of God. The teachings of the sages recorded in the Veda are coming out to distribute the teachings of the absolute realm. But their center, the higher center the sages words are illuminating - they are all emitting light like a torch to show the central sound - that central sound is the whole truth and that whole truth is Krishna. And so many liberated sages are showing their respects to that central sound from which all these mantram of the Vedas have emanated. This is Rupa Goswami's argument. Krishna. The aim and object of every letter to is show Krishna, to identify Krishna. Some words are showing Krishna indirectly, and some directly. In Bhagavatam, the character Hiranyakasipu is also playing a part to establish the character of Prahlad and Hari. It is necessary, in the background. So, in an indirect way, that Hiranyakasipu is also showing Krishna and Krishna's pastimes. Hiranyakasipu is showing the greatness, the character and devotion of Prahlad to Krishna. The structure of a building, the bricks and many other things, are all necessary, for every brick is helping construct the building. The Vedic knowledge, it is sruti(knowledge that is heard). Then that sruti was written as the Veda and that was held dear by Vyasa and his disciples. Gradually it came into writing, but in the beginning direct knowledge was communicated through sound from one man to another, from lip to ear. Sruti. <b> Sri Gopala-tapani Upanishad (1,27-29) asav anavaratam me dhyatah stutah parardhante so'budhyata gopa-veso me purastad avirbabhuva tatah pranato mayanukulena hrda mahyam astadasaranam svarupam srstaye dattvantarhitah punah sisrksato me pradurabhuttesv aksaresu bhavisyaj-jagad-rupam prakasayan tad iha kad apo lat prthivi ito'gnir vindor indus tat sapatakad arka iti klim-karad asrjam krsnayad akasam khad vayur ity uttarat surabhim vidyah pradurakarsam tad uttarat stri-pumadi cedam sakalam iti sakalam iti Brahma said: I continually glorified the Lord and meditated upon Him for millions of years, and at last I was able to understand the transcendental form of the Lord as Sri Krsna, in the dress of a cowherd boy. With devotion in my heart I bowed down before Him. He gave me the eighteen-syllable mantra to be used for the activity of creation, and then He disappeared (klim krsnaya govindaya gopijanavallabhaya svaha). When I desired to create the universe He again appeared before me, showing me in these syllables the universe that was to be. From the letter k, I created water, from the letter l, earth, from the letter i, fire, from the letter m, the moon, and from the entire word klim, the sun. From the word Krishnaya, I created ether, from Govindaya, air, from Gopijanavallabha, knowledge and the surabhi cows, and from svaha, men, women, and everything else. Everything else. </b> This world is sometimes pushing forth and sometimes withdrawing. In the same way that a heart expands and contracts again and again, the whole universe expands and contracts. Regrouping within the one, and again manifest as the many - the one and the many - the evolution and dissolution of the material universe takes place. As a heart expands and contracts, the whole universe is manifest and withdrawn. The Manu Samhita begins by describing the creation. In that book, it is written how, before the creative movement began, the tatastha potency of the Lord was in eqilibrium. Tatastha means equilibrium. Everything was in darkness, fully enveloped by ignorance. There was no possiblility of estimation; no symptoms of reality existed by which any conjecture or inference about the nature of reality would have been possible. And that state of being was unknowable: science has no capacity for investigating the nature of that stage of existence. We can only say from here that it was completely immersed in deep sleep. The analogy of deep sleep may give us some conception of that period: Material existence was at that time as if in sound sleep. At that time, movement began from within the spiritual plane, and light came. Light was seen by the suddenly awakened seers, the sages present at the moment of creation. That light was pre-existent, but at that moment the awakened seers received the vision to see light. They began to see. The first conception of this material world after light was water. The light revealed a moving substance like water seen by the sages. That primal light is compared with personality. That light, or personality, first gave birth to onlookers - to the feelers of material existence - and then to an objective substance like water. The conscious world is represented by light and the first objective reality is represented by water. Then the seeds of consciousness are sown in the causal water which is the shadow of that light. Although the actual element of water was created long after this, the first conception of matter is compared to water because water is an accommodating, moving solution. The Sanskrit word for water - apa - means "of lower conception." In this way, the lower creation began. Then, in connection with the seeds of consciousness and primal water, the next production was known as mahat-tattva: the energy of consciousness represented by light, mixed with matter as a mass. When the mass of matter is infused with the energy of light-consciousness, that is known as mahat-tattva. After further development, that entity was divided into many units of ego. First there is a mass ego as a whole. The element of conglomerate ego is called mahat-tattva; and from that conglomerate a watery objective substance evolves - by the influence of consciousness. That objective substance expresses itself in five main ways: as substance that can be seen, smelled, tasted and touched and heard. These fivefold elementary substances are the primitive principles of material existence, known as fire, earth, water, air and sky (ether, space). In a primitive state when the individual egos are massed together as a common whole, that conglomerate false ego, the primitive sense of awarenes that "I am", develops from a state of equilibrium. It evolves, it differentiates into innumerable individual units of localised awareness. Just as an atom can be broken down into subatomic particles, electrons, protons, neutrons and so on, the conglomerate ego gradually breaks into its component individual egos: jiva souls. Their position is tatastha; marginal and undetectable. From that subtle, undetectable plane of marginal energy, consciousness first develops into the detectable plane as a whole, and then innnumerable individual spiritual units are manifest from that lump of ego, or mahat-tattva. Gradually, the other elements of creation develop within this negative plane of exploitation - negative, because here every living being feeds on the bodies of others. Consciousness is producing everything. Consciousness is eternal; this world is not eternal. So many times the sun, the Earth, and the solar systems disappear, and again spring up. We are in the midst of such thought in eternity. The sun, the moon, and all the planets appear and vanish: they all die and then again they are created. We are told by the sages who spoke the literature of the Veda to view things from this viewpoint: not only this living body I have, but the human race, the animals, the trees, the entire Earth, and even the sun, will all vanish, and again spring up. Creation, dissolution, creation, dissolution - it will continue forever in the domain of misconception. At the same time, there is another world which is eternal - the land of Sri Krishna. We are requested to enter there, to make our homes in that plane which neither enters into the jaws of death, nor suffers any change. In Vrindavana, the land of Sri Krishna, everything is conscious, though some things are posing in a passive way. But they are all conscious: the Yamuna river, the cows, the trees, the fruit - everything is conscious, spiritual; but they pose in different ways. Being able to contact the conscious characteristic in everything, the Aryans saw all of nature as conscious and personal, and addressed everything as conscious beings. The Aryans, the spiritually developed persons of former times, used to see everything as consciousness. Everything is a person. The great rishis, whose thinking is highly developed, address whatever they find within the environment as if they were all persons. In the Vedas, the ancient scriptural inheritance of India, we find that the sages are always in the midst of so many persons in their natural surroundings; in the background everything we experience is a person. It is all personal. And so the rishis with such a vision of reality used to address everything as a person: the trees, the mountains, the sun, the moon, the ocean. They are conscious persons in some mixed stages of consciousness; a person suffering karma. "Person" means not a fully developed spiritual person at present, but a person in a mixed, worldly condition. The first position of a soul in the material world will be like that of Brahma, the creator. Then his karma may take him to the body of a beast like a tiger, where he is surrounded by a tigerish mentality, or to the body of a tree or creeper, where different impressions may surround him. In this way, one becomes involved in action and reaction. The case is complex; to analyze the details of the history of a particular atom is unnecessary. We are concerned with the general thing: how the transformation of the material conception springs from pure consciousness. Everything is conscious. As the present scientists say everything is matter, we have real cause to think that everything is consciousness. Matter does not evolve into a human form and brain and then produce the idea of "soul;" rather the soul contains within it, in one negligible portion, the conception of matter. Like an eczema, it is a disease. The concept of a "material world" exists like an eczema in a wholesome body. This is the understanding given by the Veda, the literature of ancient India. It would certainly be a wonderful miracle if stone could produce the soul, but it is easier and more reasonable for us to think that the soul has produced the conception of stone. In the soul, there are many conceptions, and one conception is that of stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm Posted December 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Matter does not evolve into a human form and brain and then produce the idea of "soul;" rather the soul contains within it, in one negligible portion, the conception of matter. ok- its not: matter to soul but rather: soul to matter. many people would ask- what is soul, does soul exist etc. (leave that for now) Consciousness is producing everything. Consciousness is eternal; this world is not eternal. question is: why would soul,consciousness want to "make" matter? why consciousness need matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm Posted December 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 sth else i would not want to have too many "open questions" but anyway- what is the meaning of word transcendental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 http://education./reference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 question is: why would soul,consciousness want to "make" matter? why consciousness need matter? Some being called Brahma, who has great siddhis (powers) imagines a world that is full of mundane, material activities. We come and live in the dream he imagineers and think it is real. Such is life in the material world. I imagine I am a man, a dog or cat. But I am really spirit (aham brahmasmi) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm Posted December 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 We come and live in the dream he imagineers and think it is real. where did we come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 where did we come from? or maybe, what are we a part of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 by The Incredible String Band There's something forgotten I want you to know The freckles of rain are telling me so Ohhhh it's the half remarkable question What is it that we are part of? What is it that we are? An elephant madness has covered the sun The judge and the jury still play for the fun They've torn up the roses and washed all the soap And the martyr who marries them dares not elope Ohhhhh it's the never realised question What is it that we are part of and what is it that we are? O long O long ever yet my eyes Braved the gates enormous fire And the body folded round me And the person in me grew The flower and its petal The root and its grasp The earth and its bigness The breath and its gasp The mind and its motion The foot and its move The life and its pattern The heart and its love Ohhh it's the old forgotten question. What is it that we part of and what is it that we are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 where did we come from? Sri Brahma Samhita, Chapter 5 verse 11 sahasra-sirsa purusah sahasraksah sahasra-pat sahasra-bahur visvatma sahasramsah sahasra-suh The Lord of the mundane world, Maha-Visnu, possesses thousands of thousands of heads, eyes, hands. He is the source of thousands of thousands of avataras in His thousands of thousands of subjective portions. He is the creator of thousands of thousands of individual souls. Commentary by Srila Jiva Gosvami In this verse the author describes the form of Lord Visnu. The word "sahasramsah" means "He from whom thousands of amsa-avataras come", and "sahasra-suh" means "He who creates thousand of individual souls". The word "sahasra" here means "an unlimited number". This form of Lord Visnu is described in these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.6.42) :Karanarnavasayi Visnu is the first incarnation of the Supreme Lord."* Srila Sridhara Svami comments on this verse: "Here the Bhuma-purusa, the creator of the material world, is described. The 'adyo 'vatarah' here is the pastime form of the Lord, which is also described in the passage beginning with the words "yasya sahasra-sirsah". Verse 21 sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency. Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura (as published by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura0 Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. <b>Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays</b>, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyer, meditator and doer. Krsna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect of the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Gita it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency. though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency. being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm Posted December 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 In this verse the author describes the form of Lord Visnu. The word "sahasramsah" means "He from whom thousands of amsa-avataras come", and "sahasra-suh" means "He who creates thousand of individual souls". The word "sahasra" here means "an unlimited number". This form of Lord Visnu is described in these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.6.42) if i understand correctly- Lord Vishnu creates individual souls- one of them is me:) and then we are send to this material world, which Brahma created. _______ 1. But why are we sent here? If this material world is not "real"- why are we sent here? 2. And why is Vishnu creating souls? How can Vishnu "create" soul when soul is supossed to be eternal? 3. What is the goal of one human? if there is a final goal- what is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 if i understand correctly-Lord Vishnu creates individual souls- one of them is me:) and then we are send to this material world, which Brahma created. _______ 1. But why are we sent here? If this material world is not "real"- why are we sent here? 2. And why is Vishnu creating souls? How can Vishnu "create" soul when soul is supossed to be eternal? 3. What is the goal of one human? if there is a final goal- what is it? Souls are not really created, they are "manifest" or expanded. In Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.2.32: ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ A person may attain liberation in brahman, attaining param-padam, or in other words sayujya mukti. In that state of liberation a soul has no karma, no material bondage. However, "patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ", the liberated souls absorbed in brahman may fall down into the material world and become caught in the networks of karma. Rising and falling, rising and falling, a soul may exist in sayujya mukti or in martya-loka, sometimes free, sometimes in bondage. This indeed is the situation for the souls presently existing in the material world. Previously we were existing in the rays of effulgence emanating from the body of Narayana: Mundaka Upanishad: 2.1: This is the truth - as from a blazing fire thousands of flaming sparks come forth, so from the imperishable, my friend, various beings come forth and return there also. Divine and formless is the Spirit, which is outside and inside, unborn, not breath, not mind, pure, higher than the high imperishable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 1. But why are we sent here? If this material world is not "real"- why are we sent here? 2. And why is Vishnu creating souls? How can Vishnu "create" soul when soul is supossed to be eternal? 3. What is the goal of one human? if there is a final goal- what is it? Jaiva Dharma Chapter Fifteen Nitya-dharma O Sambandhabhidheya Prayojana (Prameyantargata jiva-vicara) Eternal Religion and Sambandha, Abhidheya and Prayojana (The Individual Spirit Souls) This day Vrajanatha came a little too early to Srivasa's courtyard. The devotees living in Sri Godruma had come to Srivasa's courtyard to see the evening arati. Paramahamsa Babaji, Sri Prema dasa, Vaishnava dasa, Advaita dasa and all the other devotees had already entered the temple to see the arati. Seeing the residents of Sri Godruma, Vrajanatha thought, "Now I have their association. My life is now a great success." Seeing humble, devoted, smiling Vrajanatha, everyone gave him their blessings. When after a short time they left, going south to return to Sri Godruma, the saintly elderly babaji noticed that tears were streaming from Vrajanatha's eyes. Saintly Raghunatha dasa Babaji had by this time developed strong affection for Vrajanatha. He asked Vrajanatha, "Baba, why are you weeping?" Vrajanatha humbly replied, "O master, your teachings and association has brought an upheaval in my thoughts. Now my heart understands how worthless the material world is. My heart yearns to take shelter of Lord Gaura's feet. In my mind there is one question: Who am I in reality, and why do I live in the material world? Babaji: Good. With this question you have made me fortunate. When his auspicious day comes, a soul places this question before all others. When you hear the fifth verse of Dasa-mula and its explanation, doubts will no longer live in your heart. "As sparks fly from a blazing fire, or rays of light fly from the sun, so the individual spirit souls come from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Hari. As the sparks and rays of light are at once different and not different from their source, so the individual souls are different and not different from Lord Hari. Lord Hari is the supreme controller. He is the master of the material world. The illusory potency maya is under His control. The individual soul is not like Him. Even when he is liberated, the soul is capable of coming under maya's control." Vrajanatha: That is a wonderful conclusion! I wish to hear the evidence the Vedas give for it. The words of the Supreme Lord (Bhagavad-gita) are worthy evidence by themselves. However, when they are supported by the words of the Upanisads, they are more easily accepted by the people in general. Babaji: These truths are revealed in many passages of the Vedas. I will recite one or two of them. Please listen carefully. In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.2.20 and 4.3.9) it is said: "As tiny sparks fly from a fire, so all individual souls have come from the Supreme." "A person has two places: the spiritual world and the place where the spiritual world meets another world. There is also a third place, a place of dreams. Standing between them, the soul sees on one side the spiritual world and on the other side the place of dreaming." This passage describes the individual soul's (jiva-shakti), which can reside in either the spiritual or material worlds (tatastha). In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18) it is also said: "As a large fish in a river may go to one shore or the other, so a person may go to one world or another. He may go to a world where he is awake, or may go to a world made of dreams." Vrajanatha: How does the Vedanta philosophy define the word "tatastha?" Babaji: The place where a river's waters meet with the land of the shore is called the 'tata'. The 'tata' is then the place where water meets the land. What is the nature of this 'tata'? It is like the thinnest of threads that runs along the boundary of land and water. A 'tata' is like the finest of lines, so small that the gross material eyes cannot even see it. In this example the spiritual world is like the water and the material world is like the land. The thin line that separates them is the 'tata'. That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls. The individual spirit souls are like atomic particles of sunlight. The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by Maya. The Lord's spiritual potency, cit-shakti, is limitless, and the Lord's material potency, maya-shakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The individual spirit souls are manifested from the tatastha-shakti of Lord Krishna. Therefore the souls are naturally situated on the boundary (tatastha) of matter and spirit). Vrajanatha: What is this 'tatastha' nature of the individual souls? Babaji: Standing between them, the soul can see these two worlds. The 'tatastha' nature of the souls refers to the fact that they must be under the control of one of these two potencies. The actual place of the 'tata' (shore) may change. What was once dry land may be covered with water, and what was once covered by water may again become dry land. If he turns his gaze upon Lord Krishna, the soul comes under the shelter of Lord Krishna's spiritual potency. But if he turns away from Krishna and turns his gaze to the material potency, maya, then the soul is caught in maya's trap. That is what is meant by 'the soul's tatastha nature'. Vrajanatha: Does maya have anything to do with the nature of the spirit souls? Babaji: No. The spirit souls are completely spiritual. However, because they are atomic in size, the souls are not very strong. That is why maya can dominate them. However, in the soul's nature there is not the slightest scent of maya. Vrajanatha: I heard from my teacher that when it is surrounded by maya, the impersonal brahman becomes the individual spirit soul. When a small portion of the great sky is surrounded by the walls of a clay pot, it becomes the sky within a pot. In the same when the impersonal Brahman is surrounded by Maya, it becomes the individual soul. What does this mean? Babaji: That is just impersonalism (mayavada). How can maya have the power to touch the Supreme Brahman? If you say that Brahman has no potency, then how can maya even approach Brahman? The maya potency has no independent power. How can she have any effect on the Brahman? It cannot be said that the great Brahman becomes covered by maya and is then forced to suffer in different ways. That is not possible. If Brahman's spiritual potency is always awake and vigilant, how can the insignificant maya-shakti defeat her and proceed to create the individual souls from Brahman in this way? The Supreme Brahman is limitless and immeasurable. How can the limitless Brahman be broken into smaller souls in the same way the great sky is broken into the little skies within a series of clay pots? The idea that maya can have some effect on the Brahman cannot be accepted. Maya has nothing to do with the creation of the individual spirit souls. Although they are atomic in size, the individual spirit souls are superior to maya. Vrajanatha: At another time another teacher said that the individual spirit soul is a reflection of Brahman. As the sun is reflected on the water, so the Supreme Brahman, reflected on maya, becomes the individual soul. What does that mean? Babaji: That is also impersonalism. Brahman has no limit. Something that is unlimited cannot be reflected anywhere. The Vedas do not teach that Brahman is limited. This reflection-theory should be rejected. Vrajanatha: Another time a dig-vijayi sannyasi said that the individual spirit soul does not really exist. The idea of the individual soul is only an illusion. When the illusion is thrown far away, only the undivided Brahman remains. What does that mean? Babaji: That is also impersonalism. That idea has no root in the truth. In the Chandogya Upanisad (6.2.1) it is said: "Brahman is one without a second." Do these words of the Vedas mean that only Brahman, and nothing else, exists? If nothing but Brahman exists, then from where has this illusion come? Whom does this illusion bewilder? If you say this illusion bewilders Brahman, then you make Brahman a pathetic being. If you say this illusion bewilders something other than Brahman, then you contradict the idea that only Brahman exists. Vrajanatha: Another time a brahmana pandita of Nabadwip said that only the individual soul exists. In a dream he experiences material happiness and suffering. When he wakes up from the dream, he discovers that he is Brahman. What does this mean? Babaji: That is also impersonalism. Brahman has a dream and becomes the individual soul? What proof do they have for that? The scriptures give the examples of mistaking the glittering on a seashell's surface for silver and mistaking a rope for a snake, but these examples do not prove the impersonalist idea that Brahman alone exists. These words are only a great network of word-jugglery meant to bewilder the people in general. Vrajanatha: The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-shakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit? Babaji: No. The cit-shakti is the full manifestation of Lord Krishna's potency. Whatever she creates is eternally perfect (nitya-siddha). The individual spirit souls are not eternally perfect. By engaging in the activities of devotional service (sadhana) they may become perfect (sadhana-siddha) and thus enjoy spiritual bliss exactly like that enjoyed by the eternally perfect (nitya-siddha) beings. The four kinds of gopi-friends (sakhi) of Srimati Radharani are eternally perfect beings (nitya-siddha). They are manifested from the form of Srimati Radharani, who is the cit-shakti Herself. All the individual spirit souls are manifested from Lord Krishna's jiva-shakti. The cit-shakti is Lord Krishna's complete potency (purna-shakti). The individual souls (jiva-shakti) are counted among Lord Krishna's incomplete potencies (apurna-shakti). From the complete potency complete and perfect things are manifested. From the incomplete potency all the individual souls, who are atomic fragments of consciousness, are manifested. Lord Krishna manifests different kinds of entities according to the different kinds of potencies He employs to create them. When He is manifested in His cit-shakti, He appears as Krishna and as Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-shakti, He appears as Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is manifested in the maya-shakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krishna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana. Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-shakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the material world. All these individual souls are attracted to maya. As long as they do not attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord's spiritual hladini-shakti, they are defeated by Maya. Numberless souls are defeated by Maya and cast into Her prison. They are the followers of Maya's three modes. The conclusion is this: the individual souls are manifested by the jiva-shakti. They are not manifested by the cit-shakti. Vrajanatha: I have heard that the spiritual world is eternal and the individual spirit souls are also eternal. How is it possible for eternal things to be born, created, or manifested? If there was a time when they were not manifested and they only appear at a certain point in time, how can they be eternal? Babaji: The time and space present in the spiritual world is different from the time and space you experience now in the material world. In the material world time has three phases: past, present and future. In the spiritual world time is not broken in that way. There time is an eternal present. In the spiritual world things do not come into being. Everything exists in an eternal present. When we who living in the world of material time and space try to describe the spiritual world, we tend to say things like, "The individual souls were created,the individual souls were imprisoned by Maya", "the spiritual world was manifested", and "the individual souls are spiritual and were not created by maya". When we talk in these ways we certainly show how much we are influence by staying in this world of material time. As long as we stay in Maya's prison we cannot avoid talking in this way. That is why when we describe the individual souls or the nature of spirit we cannot avoid speaking in terms of material time. Therefore we tend to speak in terms of past and future. Therefore a person who tries to understand the spiritual world properly tries to speak in terms of an eternal present. Baba, logic cannot help us understand these things. Here logic should be rejected. Then you will be able to see the nature of spirit. When he forgets that he is eternally a servant of Lord Krishna, the individual soul enters Maya's prison. Originally all souls are Vaishnavas. However, they become two groups: 1. nitya-baddha (eternally imprisoned by Maya) and 2. nitya-mukta (eternally liberated). A human being bewildered by matter cannot describe these things. Still, a saintly devotee can attain the spiritual vision to see these spiritual truths directly. My words are inevitably influenced by matter. I will describe these things as far as I am able. My words will inevitably be imperfect. O baba, you will be able to see the pure spiritual truth. However, logic will not help you. Why will logic not help? Because logic is useless in grasping what is beyond the mind's understanding. I know you will not be able to understand this all at once. Still, the more you follow the spiritual path the more you will be able to see the difference between matter and spirit. Your body is material. All the body's actions are material. But the truth is that You yourself are not material. You are a tiny particle of conscious spirit. The more you understand that truth, the more you will be able to perceive your own identity and the truth that you are superior to the material world. You will not understand this merely by hearing me tell you about it. As you follow the path of regularly chanting the holy names of Lord Hari, these spiritual truths will gradually spontaneously appear before you. Then you will understand the spiritual world. As long as the mind and words are influenced by matter, try as one may one will not be able to touch the spiritual truth. The Vedas (Taittiriya Upanisad 2.4.1.) explain: "The descriptive power of speech fails in the realm of the Absolute Truth and the speculative power of the mind cannot achieve Him."* My advice to you is: Don't ask anyone what they think of these conclusions. Experience them yourself. I can only give a hint about them. Vrajanatha: I say this: If the individual souls are like sparks from a blazing fire or atomic particles of sunlight, then what is the function of the jiva-shakti potency? Babaji: Krishna is self-effulgent, like a blazing fire or the sun. Krishna is like a blazing fire. In the centre of the fire is the cit-shakti is present in fullness. In addition to the centre there is also a great expanse illuminated by the fire. The same way the Krishna-sun illumines a great area with sunlight. The rays of sunlight are particles of His internal potency (svarupa shakti). Those atomic particles that constitute those rays of sunlight are the individual spirit souls. The internal potency (svarupa shakti) manifests the Krishna-sun planet itself. The sunlight emanating from that planet is manifested by the cit-shakti and the individual particles of light are manifested by the jiva-shakti. Therefore the individual spirit souls are manifested by the jiva-shakti. This is described in the following words of the Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.8): "The Lord's spiritual potency is manifested in many different ways." In this way the Lord's spiritual potency manifests the jiva-shakti-sunlight, which shines on the borderline (tata) of the spiritual and material worlds. In this way the eternal individual spirit souls are manifested. Vrajanatha: A blazing fire is material, the sun is material, and sparks are material. Why are material examples used here to describe the spiritual truth? Babaji: I have already explained that when we try to use material words to describe spiritual things, the faults of matter tend to slip into the description. In this situation we have no choice but to use examples like the fire or the sun. In truth, Lord Krishna is much greater than the sun. Lord Krishna's circle of spiritual potencies is much greater than the circle of the sun's light. Lord Krishna's effulgence is much greater than the sun's light. In this case certain features that may be similar are considered, but in many other ways the two things being compared are not at all alike. The sun and the sunlight are beautiful and glorious. However, the sun is material and it also burns things to ashes, and has many other like qualities also. These qualities are absent in the spiritual truth. When we say that milk is like water, we mean that as water is a liquid, so milk is also a liquid. We do not mean that milk and water are identical in all respects. If that were so, why would we designate one thing as milk and another as water? Therefore, when we use an example to describe something, the example shows a similarity in only one point. The two things compared are not alike in everything. Vrajanatha: The individual soul-sunlight is simultaneously one and different from the Krishna-sun. How is this possible? Babaji: In the material world when one thing is manifested from another, the thing manifested is either different from or identical with its source. That is the nature of material things. When an egg comes from a bird, the egg and bird are then distinct. The egg does not remain a part of the bird. As long as they are not cut off, the hair and nails of a human body remain part of it. In the world of spirit the situation is different. When they are emanated from the spiritual sun, the rays of spiritual sunlight remain simultaneously one and different from their source. The rays of light and the atomic particles of which those rays are constituted are not different from the sun that is their origin. In the same way the sunlight or the jiva-shakti and the atomic particles of which that sunlight is composed, which particles are the individual spirit souls, are not different from the Krishna-sun that is their origin. In this way the individual spirit souls are not different from Lord Krishna. However, the individual souls are all individual persons, and each of them has free-will. In this way they are each eternally different from Lord Krishna. In this way the individual spirit souls are simultaneously one and different from Lord Krishna. This is so eternally. In this way the nature of spirit is different from that of matter. The panditas also give another example from the material world. It is this: There is a large lump of gold, and from that lump a bracelet is fashioned. Because it is gold, the bracelet is not different from the gold lump. Still, because it is a bracelet, it is also different from the lump of gold. The example here does not hold in all its details, but in one point it holds. The Krishna-sun and the individual souls-sunlight are one in the sense that they are both spirit, but they are different in the sense that one is the complete spirit and the other is a tiny particle of spirit. The impersonalists' example of the 'sky within the clay pot and the great sky expanded everywhere' does not properly explain the spiritual truth. Vrajanatha: If spirit and matter are different, then why are these examples used? Babaji: The nyaya philosophers like to divide the components of the material world into various categories, and then claim that these divisions are eternal. Matter and spirit are not really different from each other in that way. As I said before, matter is merely a perverted manifestation of spirit. The perverted manifested and the original pure form from which it has come may share many similar features. The perverted manifestation is certainly different from the original pure form, but still the two share many similarities. Ice is a perverted manifestation of water. Ice is different from water. Still water and ice may both be cold and may share many other qualities also. There may also be differences. Cold and hot water do not share the quality of coldness. However, they do share the quality of liquidity. Therefore a perverted manifestation may have many qualities like those present in the pure manifestation that is its origin. Because matter is a perverted manifestation of spirit, spirit and matter do have some similar qualities. These similar qualities may provide material examples to describe spiritual things. Here the example of 'arundhati-darsana-nyaya' (showing the position of the star Arundhati in the sky by using an object on the earth as a point of reference. In this way one may say, "If you look between these two branches of this tree, the star in the sky shining there is Arundhati") is appropriate. In this way examples drawn from material things can be used to reveal spiritual truths. Lord Krishna's pastimes are perfectly spiritual. They have not even the slightest scent of matter. Lord Krishna's Vraja pastimes in Vraja, which are described in Srimad Bhagavatam are perfectly spiritual and not material. When they are read to a circle of human hearers, they produce different results according to the qualifications of the different people hearing them. When people very attached to matter hear these pastimes they enjoy the material poetic language and, as far as they are concerned, think they are hearing description of an ordinary romantic couple. People of an intermediate qualification think in terms of the 'arundhati-darsana-nyaya'. They think these pastimes are examples drawn from the material world to reveal spiritual truths. Persons who are most qualified know that these pastimes are spiritual activities far beyond the realm of matter. These persons dive into an ocean of nectar happiness to hear these pastimes. Without speaking examples like these, how can one teach the people about the spiritual truth? The material mind and material words are defeated when they try to describe these things. How will the souls imprisoned in the material world attain an auspicious life? We do not see any way other than by speaking examples like the example of 'arundhati-darsana-nyaya'. Material things are either one or different. Spiritual things are not like that. Lord Krishna, His jiva-shakti potency and the individual spirit souls manifested from that potency are all inconceivable. You should accept that they are simultaneously one and different. Vrajanatha: In what ways are the individual spirit soul and the Supreme Personality of Godhead different? Babaji: First I will explain how the individual spirit soul and the Supreme Personality of Godhead are eternally one. After that I will explain how They are eternally different. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is consciousness, a knower, an enjoyer, a thinker, self-manifested, and visible to others. He is also the knower of all fields of activity and He is full of desires. The individual spirit soul is also consciousness, a knower, an enjoyer, a thinker, self-manifested, and visible to others. He is also the knower of a field of activity and he is also full of desires. Because He is the master of all potencies, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has these qualities to the highest degree. On the other hand, the individual spirit soul, possessing only very slight power, has these qualities in a very slight degree. Although they are different in the sense that one is perfect and complete and the other is very small and atomic, the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual spirit soul are alike in that They both possess these qualities. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of all potencies. He is the controller of the svarupa-shakti (internal potency), jiva-shakti and maya-shakti. These potencies are all His obedient maidservants. He is their master. Whatever He wishes, they do. That is the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is subordinate to the Lord's other potencies. The word 'maya' is used in the Dasa-mula (in the verse quoted in the beginning of this chapter) to mean not only the Lord's material potency but also His internal potency (svarupa-shakti). The dictionaries explain: "That which measures is called 'maya'." According to this explanation, the word 'maya' refers to the potency of Lord Krishna that manifests the spiritual world, the individual spirit souls, and the material world. Understood in this way, the word 'maya' refers to the Lord's internal potency (svarupa-shakti), not to His material potency. Lord Krishna is the master of this maya potency. The individual spirit souls are under the control of the maya potency. This is described in the following words of the Svetasvatara Upanisad (4.9-10): "It is very difficult for the conditioned soul, illusioned by maya and trapped in the material world, to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the controller of the illusory potency and the creator of the material universes.* "One should know that although maya (illusion) is false or temporary, the background of maya is the supreme magician, the Personality of Godhead, who is Mahesvara, the Supreme Controller."* In these verses the word 'mayi' refers to Lord Krishna, the controller of maya, and the word 'prakrti' refers to His complete potency. This glorious quality (being the controller of maya) belongs to the Supreme Personality of Godhead alone. The individual souls do not possess it. Even the liberated souls cannot attain this quality. In the Vedanta-sutra (4.4.17) it is said: "Even after he attains liberation, the individual soul does not have the power to create the material world." Therefore the conclusion of Vedanta-sutra is that the individual souls are eternally different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The circle of the wise accept this conclusion. This eternal difference is not an imagination. It is eternally real. The difference between the soul and the Lord will never be destroyed. Therefore you should know that the statement "The individual spirit soul is eternally a servant of Lord Krishna" is one of the most important teachings of the scriptures. Vrajanatha: If they are eternally different, then how are they not different? Should we accept the idea that when he attains nirvana, the soul becomes one with the Supreme? Babaji: Baba, it is not like that. At no time does the individual soul become non-different from the Supreme. Vrajanatha: Then why do you say that the soul is simultaneously one and different from the Lord? Babaji: In the sense that they are both spiritual in nature, Lord Krishna and the individual soul are eternally not different. Otherwise, their natures are eternally different. Their oneness is eternal and their difference is also eternal. Their oneness does not refer to the other qualities of their natures. In other qualities their difference is more prominent. Therefore, if one says that a house is simultaneously "the property of Devadatta" and "without Devadatta's presence", then even though Devadatta may be absent, the idea that it remains his property is the more important of the two ideas. Now I will give another material example. The sky is a material thing. If some portion of the sky is contained within a clay pot, the existence of the great sky outside the pot remains more important than the sky within the pot. In the same way the eternal difference between the Supreme Lord and the individual spirit soul is more important than their oneness. Vrajanatha: Please describe the soul's eternal nature more clearly. Babaji: The individual spirit soul is an atomic fragment of consciousness. He has knowledge. He has ego, or a sense of self, and he calls himself by the word "I". He is an enjoyer, and thinker, and a knower. The soul has an eternal form. That form is spiritual and subtle. That form has hands, feet, eyes, nose, ears, and other limbs, all handsome and graceful, superficially like the limbs of an ordinary material body. That body is made of a spiritual atom. It is very handsome. It is spiritual. That is the eternal form of the individual spirit soul. When the soul is imprisoned by Maya, the soul's original spiritual body is covered by two material bodies. One of these bodies is called 'linga-sarira" (the subtle body) and the other is called 'sthula-sarira' (the gross body). The linga-sarira covers the atomic spiritual form of the individual spirit soul. From the time the soul is first imprisoned in the material world until the time he is released, the linga-sarira cannot be removed. When the soul takes birth in another body, he enters a different sthula-sarira (gross body). He does not enter a different linga-sarira. He keeps the same linga-sarira. The linga-sarira is one. On the other hand, the soul periodically leaves one sthula-sarira and, impelled by his material desires, accepts another sthula-sarira. Thus, following the path of the five fires described in the Vedas, the soul attains a new sthula-sarira. These five fires, beginning with "citagni, vrsty-agni, bhojagni and reto-havanagni" are described in the Chandogya Upanisad and the Vedanta-sutra. In this way one birth follows another. According to the desires he had in his previous births, the soul attains a particular kind of new body. In this way he attains a certain kind of material nature and a particular status among the castes. According to the way he acts in the varnasrama system, he gets an appropriate new body at the time of death. Meanwhile his original spiritual form remains covered, first by the linga-sarira, and secondly by the sthula-sarira. Vrajanatha: What is the difference between the eternal spiritual body and the linga-sarira? Babaji: The eternal body is an atomic particle of spirit. It has no defects. The soul may properly apply the word "I" to this body alone. The linga-sarira is composed of material perversions of the soul's original mind, intelligence and ego. Vrajanatha: How can mind, intelligence and ego be material? If they are material, how can they be conscious of anything? Babaji: Lord Krishna explains in the Bhagavad-gita (7.4-6): "Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false-ego - altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies.* "Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe.* "Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both its origin and dissolution."* Look at these words of Gita Upanisad. Here two natures: superior (para) and inferior (apara) are described. The superior nature is the jiva-shakti, and the inferior nature is the maya-shakti. Because it is a particle of spirit, the jiva shakti is here called 'superior'. On the other hand, the maya-shakti is made of matter, and therefore it is called 'inferior'. The individual spirit souls are different from the inferior, material potency. The inferior potency has eight elements: the five gross elements and the three subtle elements of mind, intelligence and false ego. When they are manifested in the material potency, mind, intelligence and ego are material in nature. These three form a body made of consciousness, but that consciousness is not spiritual, it is material consciousness. From the material mind all else is manifested. The mind is thus conscious of material objects and engaged in directing material activities. Thus the material mind is the root from which material things grow. It is not the root of spiritual things. In the material consciousness is placed the conception of what is good and what is not good. This is called 'intelligence'. This intelligence is material in nature. From this material intelligence material ego is manifested. This kind of ego is not spiritual in its nature. When these three material elements (material mind, intelligence and ego) combine they form a second body, which is called the linga-sarira. The material ego of this material linga-sarira then covers the eternal spiritual ego of the individual spirit soul. In the soul's eternal spiritual form, the spiritual ego understands its relationship with the spiritual Krishna-sun. When the soul attains liberation, this original spiritual ego becomes uncovered and is openly manifested. As long as the linga-sarira covers the soul's eternal spiritual form, the soul tends to identify itself as matter. At that time the truth, that the soul is spiritual, is almost completely lost. The linga-sarira is made of subtle matter and because it is subtle it is easily covered by another body, the sthula-sarira, which is made of gross matter. When the covering of the sthula-sarira is in place, the ego identifies with one of the castes or other groups (varnas) of this world. Because they are perverted manifestations of their counterparts in the soul's original spiritual body, the material mind, intelligence and ego think they are really conscious of the world around them. Vrajanatha: I understand now that the individual soul has an eternal spiritual form, each limb of which is very graceful and beautiful. When the soul is imprisoned by Maya, that original spiritual form is covered by the linga-sarira. In this way the soul's beauty is covered and hidden. Then the linga-sarira is covered by the gross sthula-sarira. In this way the soul's original form is completely hidden by a great apparatus of material things. My question is this: Is the liberated soul completely perfect and free of any defect? Babaji: Although he is free of defects, the atomic spiritual soul is not perfect. Why no? He is very tiny and very weak. For this reason one defect may be seen in the individual soul: because he is so weak, when he comes into contact with maya-shakti, the soul is easily overpowered and his original form becomes covered. In Srimad Bhagavatam (10.2.32) the demigods speak the following prayer to the Supreme Lord: "O lotus-eyed one, those who think they are liberated in this life but do not render devotional service to You must be of impure intelligence. Although they accept severe austerities and penances to rise to the spiritual position, to impersonal Brahman realisation, they fall down again because they neglect to worship Your lotus feet."* Therefore, even when he is liberated, the individual spirit soul is not very great and is always imperfect. That is the truth of the individual spirit souls. The Vedas declare that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the controller of Maya, but on the other hand the individual spirit souls are so weak that at any moment they may be overpowered by Maya. 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Guest guest Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 “the energy of consciousness represented by light, mixed with matter as a mass.” Thanks a bunch for the post. Although a beast in size … :> If any are reading with understanding, then that post is pretty basic common sense, to a point. The above item is basically like ‘atoms and energy’ as I said versus adam and eve like the west suggests. But water is not where it started, nor is fire an ‘element.’ These are renditions as the only way the “old” could describe. There is beauty in that post and many others on this thread on “Ether” and I will write up a whole guidance under it if others would like. “The first position of a soul in the material world will be like that of Brahma, the creator.” This is another way of stating we actually cause “existences,” and why the west suggest we were made in Gods image. It is where I mentioned we can take 2 shades of color (energy) and create a new shade. “Conscious’ life actually perpetuates an existence in a physical reality versus just of theological renditions. Good Stuff and thank you. Guruvani ----- “or maybe, what are we a part of?” Ah …. You are reading …… Good Look around, Sir. What do you see? Do the words of old and today suggest that we are associated, physically to everything, ‘find “mother in the stone.” Or all mass and energy are “entangled.” How do you want it (answer) in physics or in theology? They both state the same thing! “The Half-Remarkable Question” You and every conscious being ever, asks the same question and like them no one ever had the answer but them days are soon over, even with the words written years and years back, still no one has met the requisite of physically applying what the words of the fathers meant …… walk with me as this is the charge to be fulfilled! No magic, no BS, just physically applicability to why the heck we exist. This is what will begin responsibilities among the species not to mention cure the medical ills and begin the new era since Kali is on a way out. Now do you see? I love happy endings ….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm Posted December 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Who am I in reality, and why do I live in the material world? "As tiny sparks fly from a fire, so all individual souls have come from the Supreme." The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by Maya. The Lord's spiritual potency, cit-shakti, is limitless, and the Lord's material potency, maya-shakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The conclusion is this: the individual souls are manifested by the jiva-shakti. They are not manifested by the cit-shakti. When he forgets that he is eternally a servant of Lord Krishna, the individual soul enters Maya's prison. Your body is material. All the body's actions are material. But the truth is that You yourself are not material. You are a tiny particle of conscious spirit. However, the individual souls are all individual persons, and each of them has free-will. In this way they are each eternally different from Lord Krishna. In this way the individual spirit souls are simultaneously one and different from Lord Krishna. This is so eternally. The Krishna-sun and the individual souls-sunlight are one in the sense that they are both spirit, but they are different in the sense that one is the complete spirit and the other is a tiny particle of spirit. Matter and spirit are not really different from each other in that way. As I said before, matter is merely a perverted manifestation of spirit. You should accept that they are simultaneously one and different. Because He is the master of all potencies, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has these qualities to the highest degree. On the other hand, the individual spirit soul, possessing only very slight power, has these qualities in a very slight degree. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of all potencies. He is the controller of the svarupa-shakti (internal potency), jiva-shakti and maya-shakti. These potencies are all His obedient maidservants. He is their master. Whatever He wishes, they do. "One should know that although maya (illusion) is false or temporary, the background of maya is the supreme magician, the Personality of Godhead, who is Mahesvara, the Supreme Controller." Lord Krishna, the controller of maya, and the word 'prakrti' refers to His complete potency. This glorious quality (being the controller of maya) belongs to the Supreme Personality of Godhead alone. "Even after he attains liberation, the individual soul does not have the power to create the material world." "The individual spirit soul is eternally a servant of Lord Krishna" is one of the most important teachings of the scriptures. Their oneness is eternal and their difference is also eternal. The individual spirit soul is an atomic fragment of consciousness. He has knowledge. He has ego, or a sense of self, and he calls himself by the word "I". He is an enjoyer, and thinker, and a knower. The soul has an eternal form. That form is spiritual and subtle. That form has hands, feet, eyes, nose, ears, and other limbs, all handsome and graceful, superficially like the limbs of an ordinary material body. That body is made of a spiritual atom. It is very handsome. It is spiritual. That is the eternal form of the individual spirit soul. When the soul is imprisoned by Maya, the soul's original spiritual body is covered by two material bodies. One of these bodies is called 'linga-sarira" (the subtle body) and the other is called 'sthula-sarira' (the gross body). The linga-sarira covers the atomic spiritual form of the individual spirit soul. From the time the soul is first imprisoned in the material world until the time he is released, the linga-sarira cannot be removed. When the soul takes birth in another body, he enters a different sthula-sarira (gross body). He does not enter a different linga-sarira. He keeps the same linga-sarira. The linga-sarira is one. According to the way he acts in the varnasrama system, he gets an appropriate new body at the time of death. Vrajanatha: What is the difference between the eternal spiritual body and the linga-sarira? Babaji: The eternal body is an atomic particle of spirit. It has no defects. The soul may properly apply the word "I" to this body alone. The linga-sarira is composed of material perversions of the soul's original mind, intelligence and ego. Vrajanatha: How can mind, intelligence and ego be material? If they are material, how can they be conscious of anything? Babaji: Lord Krishna explains in the Bhagavad-gita (7.4-6): "Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false-ego - altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies.* "Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe.* superior (para) inferior (apara) The superior nature is the jiva-shakti, and the inferior nature is the maya-shakti. The inferior potency has eight elements: the five gross elements and the three subtle elements of mind, intelligence and false ego. In the material consciousness is placed the conception of what is good and what is not good. This is called 'intelligence'. From this material intelligence material ego is manifested. This kind of ego is not spiritual in its nature. When these three material elements (material mind, intelligence and ego) combine they form a second body, which is called the linga-sarira. The material ego of this material linga-sarira then covers the eternal spiritual ego of the individual spirit soul. As long as the linga-sarira covers the soul's eternal spiritual form, the soul tends to identify itself as matter. Therefore, even when he is liberated, the individual spirit soul is not very great and is always imperfect. That is the truth of the individual spirit souls. The Vedas declare that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the controller of Maya, but on the other hand the individual spirit souls are so weak that at any moment they may be overpowered by Maya. thanks for posts! and all answers here _____ 1. if souls are eternal- that means that the number of the souls is the same ever.. how many souls are? 2. when one soul libetares karma, maya (reicarnations)- what is that called? when one soul reaches that- can it go back to material world? if not... sonner or later we will all liberate from maya 3. what happen when all jivas liberate from maya? is it possible? then there is no maya... 4. why the Supreme Lord need Maya, material world? if the true part is our eternal soul- why has he created maya, material world? 5. i read that Krishna has 100% 0f 64 qualities question is: what is the situation (%) of my soul in "the beging of yournei"? what is the procentage at the moment of liberation from maya? 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