Sri Guru is Always Manifested

[Guruvani]

 

 

"...in the exact same words". Another nonsense statement. If this was true then there would be no reason to write your own realization.

 

750406CC.MAY Lectures

 

So one who is spreading Krsna- upadesa, simply repeat what is said by Krsna, then you become acarya. Not difficult at all. Everything is stated there. We have to simply repeat like parrot. Not exactly parrot. Parrot does not understand the meaning; he simply vibrates. But you should understand the meaning also; otherwise how you can explain?

[theist]

750406CC.MAY Lectures

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

So one who is spreading Krsna- upadesa, simply repeat what is said by Krsna, then you become acarya. Not difficult at all. Everything is stated there. We have to simply repeat like parrot. Not exactly parrot. Parrot does not understand the meaning; he simply vibrates. But you should understand the meaning also; otherwise how you can explain?

 

Yes Guruvani but if that is taken to be exact words then wouldn't we all have to learn sanskrit? If however it is taken as essence then that essence can be place within so many other languages which is precisely what His Divine Grace did and wanted his disciples to continue doing.

 

Also noteable is that Srila Prabhupada says "not exactly parrot.....otherwise how can you explain?" So that means to me we have to capture the meaning/essence in order to be able to explain it in our own words.

 

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

[Shakti-Fan]

"...in the exact same words". Isn't that what it means to parrot? Isn't that what a parrot (bird) does. "Not exactly parrot". So not exactly like a parrot means to repeat the essence of what you've heard from your spiritual master. Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that one of the reasons his guru maharaja, Srila Saraswati Thakur appreciated him was that he, "did not merely vomit" what he heard. If you vomit some food then you have not digested or assimilated it. The word assimilate is explained in the dictionary as “the transformation of food into living tissue”. To realize, assimilate or "understand the meaning" are all synonomous. Maybe freshman English and a Symbolic Logic class would help.

[Guruvani]

 

"...in the exact same words". Isn't that what it means to parrot? Isn't that what a parrot (bird) does. "Not exactly parrot". So not exactly like a parrot means to repeat the essence of what you've heard from your spiritual master. Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that one of the reasons his guru maharaja, Srila Saraswati Thakur appreciated him was that he, "did not merely vomit" what he heard. If you vomit some food then you have not digested or assimilated it. The word assimilate is explained in the dictionary as “the transformation of food into living tissue”. To realize, assimilate or "understand the meaning" are all synonomous. Maybe freshman English and a Symbolic Logic class would help.

 

I don't want to get stuck on stupid here, because the main point I am making is that whether or not it is exactly the same words or simply paraphrasing in common language, the idea is that we don't need to try and extract some different meaning or DEEPER meaning than the obvious meaning that Srila Prabhupada explained in his teachings.

 

Exact words or just exact idea in different words doesn't matter.

 

Earlier though, it was being said that contemporary Swamis, gurus and sannyasis are shedding new light on the teachings of Srila Prabhuapda and explaining things that can't be understood from reading his books.

 

I say that is all baloney.

Sure, we can learn things from contemporary devotees like how to make kaupins, wear dhoti, put on tilaka and other things that aren't in the books.

There are lots of practical things that we need help from experienced devotees with.

 

But, when it comes to philosophy, I don't agree that these sannyasi disciples of Srila Prabhupada have any responsibility or authority for trying to extract some other meaning than the obvious overt meaning given by Srila Prabhupada.

 

I don't see that devotees have even touched the tip of the iceberg of the knowledge in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

So, to say that we have absorbed all that and gone on to deeper things is load of hog slop.

[suchandra]

 

that's a mighty nice way to refer to ecclesiatical career gurus who can't accomplish anything except loitering around ISKCON in a chronic case of institutional over-dependence.

 

Tripurari Maharaja and Jagat Guru Maharaja are the only two disciples of Srila Prabhupada that I know of that have shown that they can accomplish anything on their own merit without using ISKCON as a crutch.

 

I have a lot of respect and appreciationg for devotees like them.

 

posted Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:54:00 -0800

 

Question: What is the position of devotees who had been approved by Srila

Prabhupada and were waiting to receive initiation from him but had not

yet received initiation when he departed? Are they considered direct

disciples of Srila Prabhupada?

Tripurari Swami: The basic idea is that the will of the Vaisnava is the substance of

initiation. Because Srila Prabhupada agreed to initiate them, they are

his disciples. This is, of course, in consideration of the fact that

his system of initiation often involved accepting a disciple and then

having the formalities of initiation carried out by one of his senior

disciples, who acted as the priest (rtvik). In such cases the substance

of the initiation took place on his giving his consent. At that time

the disciple heard the diksa mantras from Srila Prabhupada on tape,

while the other formalities of initiation were carried out by the

rtvik. This was the opinion of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja, whom Srila

Prabhupada sent us to for insight into these matters.

--------------

Q. I am interested in becoming one of your students. I regularly attend

programs at the International Society for Krsna Consciousness (Iskcon)

and have friends there who are supportive of my decision to seek

initiation from you. Can you assist me?

Tripurari Swami: I will be honored to assist you in your spiritual pursuit, but you

should be forewarned that I am not a member of Iskcon and that some

Iskcon members are hostile to my students and myself to the point of

not allowing those affiliated with me to visit their temples. Therefore

if your spiritual life, as you understand it, is dependent on

association with Iskcon members, becoming my student may at times cause

you conflict. If, on the other hand, you feel that your spiritual life

is dependent on my guidance and you are prepared to pursue that at any

cost, then any hostility you may experience from members of Iskcon will

not be an issue.

Further information on this issue can be found in the following Sangas:

Iskcon, Exile, and the Conflict of Vows

http://www.swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/volume_three/m134.html

---------------

Q. Some members of another Gaudiya institution have told me that

hearing about Krsna consciousness from you is not a good idea for me

and my family as we are so "new" to all of this. However, I am

attracted to your teachings, so I am going to seek out what I feel is

truly helpful to me, regardless of what they say. My question is: What

can a working person like myself possibly do to serve a guru? What form

might this service take?

Tripurari Swami: I am happy to know that I have been helpful to you in your spiritual

life. Regarding your question, hearing and chanting are the main

service and as a working person you can also serve the mission by

contributing financially towards its maintenance and expansion.

Householders often have responsibilities that make it difficult for

them to render service directly to the mission of Sri Guru and

Gauranga. Still, there will be special opportunities for service that

arise from time to time, and when they do, you should take them

seriously. We live for such opportunities.

In conclusion, I must say that I am encouraged by your response to the

negativity you have experienced regarding your connection with me. Be

certain that this negativity has absolutely no spiritual basis

whatsoever. It is purely misplaced sentiment, sentiment that is not

philosophically grounded in the transcendental precepts of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

I don't see that devotees have even touched the tip of the iceberg of the knowledge in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

So, to say that we have absorbed all that and gone on to deeper things is load of hog slop.

Yes for anyone "to say that we have absorbed all that" would be puffed up and impertinent. But what Srila Sridhar Maharaja explained was that essentially the tip of the iceberg itself of the books of Srila Prabhupada is far deeper than we had previously imagined. The difficulty is that it is our attachment to sense gratification and our false egos that keeps us imprisoned in real superficiality. And making posts on these forums doesn't necessarily help us if we are not making a serious attempt to perform sadhana bhakti. Sad but true, certainly for me.

[Guruvani]

 

Yes for anyone "to say that we have absorbed all that" would be puffed up and impertinent. But what Srila Sridhar Maharaja explained was that essentially the tip of the iceberg itself of the books of Srila Prabhupada is far deeper than we had previously imagined. The difficulty is that it is our attachment to sense gratification and our false egos that keeps us imprisoned in real superficiality. And making posts on these forums doesn't necessarily help us if we are not making a serious attempt to perform sadhana bhakti. Sad but true, certainly for me.

Then, if you are acquainted with the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, you might remember that he explained that sometimes a devotee appears to be backstepping and regressing from the path or the goal, but it is not always as it appears.

He gave the example that sometimes like an athlete who is jumping hurdles and misses a hurdle and falls and then has to go back to the starting line again and make another run and another attempt at the hurdle, a devotee sometimes falls down in attempting to make certain hurdles in spiritual life.

At that point, the devotee sometime appears to backstep or regress from the challenge, but that is only because he is gathering energy and determination to make a try at that hurdle again.

So, there is no use in making one half-hearted attempt and failing over and over again.

When the athlete has finally got his determination up to give it his all and get over that hurdle with absolute conviction, then it is time to make another run at the hurdle.

There is no use in repeated half-hearted attempts when the athlete knows that his determination and his heart aren't FULLY prepared to make the complete effort required to get over the hurdle.

So, if anyone can say "I have made it over all the hurdles and crossed the finish line a winner", then he has attained perfection and become a liberated soul.

There is no great advantage for one athlete who has crossed one or two hurdles to look back at fallen athletes and arrogantly feel superior, when in fact he still has many hurdles ahead of him and his own race to the goal is not yet complete.

sometimes, students in middle-school laugh and mock students in elementary school as if they have attained some greater status, when in fact they have a long way to go before they can claim to be finished students with their diploma.

Our paltry attempts at sadhana are nothing compared to the causeless mercy of the spiritual master.

In the world of bhakti, kripa is a lot more gracious than sadhana.

So, we shouldn't get all puffed-up over a little sadhana practice.

It doesn't really mean that much.

[theist]

 

I don't want to get stuck on stupid here, because the main point I am making is that whether or not it is exactly the same words or simply paraphrasing in common language, the idea is that we don't need to try and extract some different meaning or DEEPER meaning than the obvious meaning that Srila Prabhupada explained in his teachings.

 

I agree with this. Prabhupada explained himself very clearly and we don't need to go through this swami or that acarya to understand him. If we are sincere the Lord in heart will reveal Himself in Prabhupada's words.

[Guest guest]

That's one of the BIG problems - sadhakas think that Srila Prabhupada's books stand alone and it is impertinent or offensive to suggest that anyone would actually benefit by hearing from an advanced vaishnava. The objection most often takes the form that Ksambuddhi has phrased it in - 'DEEPER' meaning or shedding 'new light'. So where does that leave everyone? It's all in the books and anyone who says anything which is percieved as different or an attempt to clarify or elucidate a point will be labeled an impertinent student. That is nothing but a big smoke screen.

 

Here is another rewording of the same illusion - "Prabhupada is the greatest most realized spiritual master and he has given us his instructions in his books so I don't need to hear from anyone else - in fact, hearing from others will only cloud the issue because their realizations are lower and they are offensive for even attempting to share their realizations - better to simply parrot the words of the Jagat Guru."

 

The problem is that we are all unique and we all come to Krsna with our own misconceptions that need to be cleared away. That is why Sridhara Maharaja characterized the sastra as the passive agent and the sadhu as the active agent. The active agent of divinity can hear a persons doubts, answer them, see if they have been understood, reiterate them in different words for clarity etc. That is dynamic and 'active'.

 

You will never find anyone who claims that they have surpassed Srila Prabhupada in terms of realization who is an active member of the Bhaktivinoda Parivara, so the objection raised by Ksambuddhi is simply a facade. If all we needed was books then there would be no need of a preaching mission or giving lectures and answering questions - just read the books. That is not only impractical, it is a gross misinterpretation of Gaudiya siddhanta. The books tell you on every page to seek out a sadhu - he can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth - he has had darshana. He is not a parrot without realization. He is the living Bhagavata. The parampara did not end with Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

 

That's one of the BIG problems - sadhakas think that Srila Prabhupada's books stand alone and it is impertinent or offensive to suggest that anyone would actually benefit by hearing from an advanced vaishnava. The objection most often takes the form that Ksambuddhi has phrased it in - 'DEEPER' meaning or shedding 'new light'. So where does that leave everyone? It's all in the books and anyone who says anything which is percieved as different or an attempt to clarify or elucidate a point will be labeled an impertinent student. That is nothing but a big smoke screen.

 

Here is another rewording of the same illusion - "Prabhupada is the greatest most realized spiritual master and he has given us his instructions in his books so I don't need to hear from anyone else - in fact, hearing from others will only cloud the issue because their realizations are lower and they are offensive for even attempting to share their realizations - better to simply parrot the words of the Jagat Guru."

 

The problem is that we are all unique and we all come to Krsna with our own misconceptions that need to be cleared away. That is why Sridhara Maharaja characterized the sastra as the passive agent and the sadhu as the active agent. The active agent of divinity can hear a persons doubts, answer them, see if they have been understood, reiterate them in different words for clarity etc. That is dynamic and 'active'.

 

You will never find anyone who claims that they have surpassed Srila Prabhupada in terms of realization who is an active member of the Bhaktivinoda Parivara, so the objection raised by Ksambuddhi is simply a facade. If all we needed was books then there would be no need of a preaching mission or giving lectures and answering questions - just read the books. That is not only impractical, it is a gross misinterpretation of Gaudiya siddhanta. The books tell you on every page to seek out a sadhu - he can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth - he has had darshana. He is not a parrot without realization. He is the living Bhagavata. The parampara did not end with Srila Prabhupada.

But, if we really look at these "sadhus", we find that they are solidly immersed in shastra.

Sadhus aren't running all over the world looking for some "physical sadhu or guru" to loiter around.

Sadhus are doing bhajan and relishing shastra.

 

The day that we are told to put all emphasis on the "sadhu" and minimize the shastra is the day that we are not doing as the sadhu is doing.

 

Do as the sadhu does.

Don't chase around the world looking for some physical form of sadhu or guru to loiter around.

 

We see that all too often.

There is a class of "vapu vadis" who run all over the world chasing around the physical form of some sadhu so that they can use that as some credential or some claim to higher position.

 

Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja always emphasized service above this loitering around the physical form of the guru.

 

Loitering around the gross body of the "sadhu" is many times just the same old hackneyed powergrab that went on in the ISKCON days.

 

those that had more physical proximity to Srila Prabhupada used that to simply acquire some prestige and position to gratify their own egos.

 

In the end, we find that most all these "vapu vadis" are the ones that made the biggest offenses and caused the most disruption to the movement.

 

Despite volumes of references from Srila Prabhupada about vani being more important than vapu, there is still this "vapu vadi" crowd preaching vapuvada, which is simply an extension of the bodily conception of life.

[Guest guest]

First off, a sadhu does not have a 'physical form'. His/her body is fully spiritualized by dint of full engagement in bhakti sadhana. Second off, no one is saying or even implying what you have concocted. Sadhu is reading sastra and always looking for the company of sadhus. The importance of sadhu sanga is found every where throughout our sastra. Both sadhu and sastra stress service.

 

Here is one question and one answer from a Sanga that speaks to this issue and gives a very direct answer:

 

Q. Aren't Srila Prabhupada's books guru-sastra-sadhu in one?

 

A. Not according to sastra or other sadhus, or to Srila Prabhupada himself for that matter. If this were the case, we would not need Srila Prabhupada at all. If we accept this premise, we may as well just connect directly to Krsna through Bhagavad Gita, calling it guru-sastra-sadhu in one, or directly to Vyasa through Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

So why make this point at all? Because you are trying to cover over the scriptural mandate about the necessity of sadhu sanga. We are not talking about anything mundane or 'physical' as you put it. We are talking about spritual association through which a sadhaka grows spritually. Read what Kapila has to say about this in the third canto of S.B.

 

The reason that people like you try to downplay the need for sadhu sanga is because you don't believe that sadhus exist, hence the need for a concocted philosophy fixing the parampara forever at one point in time. What kind of power did Srila Prabhupada have if he can't produce a single sadhu? This idea shows a complete lack of faith in Srila Prabhupada. What kind of seeds was he planting that they never produce mature plants that bear necarean fruits?

[Nrsinghadev]

 

But, if we really look at these "sadhus", we find that they are solidly immersed in shastra.

Sadhus aren't running all over the world looking for some "physical sadhu or guru" to loiter around.

Sadhus are doing bhajan and relishing shastra.

Even if that would be the case, which I highly doubt, they are still doing so only after they have fallen at the lotusfeet of their guru, heard him speak Hari katha ,received initiation and received instructions from him.

All sadhus I've met have always stressed the importance of sadhu sanga, and are actually never alone. They are not Babaji's, their mission is to engage everyone in Krishna consciousness. When such a sadhu meets another sadhu he obviously does not "loiter around" him like some kind of headless chicken. No, he discusses Krishna with that sadhu. That is the whole purpose of sadhu sanga.

 

 

 

The day that we are told to put all emphasis on the "sadhu" and minimize the shastra is the day that we are not doing as the sadhu is doing.

 

Do as the sadhu does.

Don't chase around the world looking for some physical form of sadhu or guru to loiter around.

Funny you should mention this because if you would actually do as the sadhu does, then you would more often than not be engaged in sadhu sanga. I seem to recall Prabhupada saying in one of his Gita purports that it is not important to read many books, which unfortunately has been edited lately to read quite the opposite.

 

 

 

We see that all too often.

There is a class of "vapu vadis" who run all over the world chasing around the physical form of some sadhu so that they can use that as some credential or some claim to higher position.

 

Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja always emphasized service above this loitering around the physical form of the guru.

 

Loitering around the gross body of the "sadhu" is many times just the same old hackneyed powergrab that went on in the ISKCON days.

 

those that had more physical proximity to Srila Prabhupada used that to simply acquire some prestige and position to gratify their own egos.

 

In the end, we find that most all these "vapu vadis" are the ones that made the biggest offenses and caused the most disruption to the movement.

 

Despite volumes of references from Srila Prabhupada about vani being more important than vapu, there is still this "vapu vadi" crowd preaching vapuvada, which is simply an extension of the bodily conception of

life.

This is not what is meant by having physical association with the sadhu. What is meant by it is that you go and hear Krishna katha from the lips of a realized soul, not that you become some sort of sadhu groupie. There is no question of simply "loitering around his effulgence" when they say you have to hear from a bonafide spiritual master.

 

 

I agree with this. Prabhupada explained himself very clearly and we don't need to go through this swami or that acarya to understand him. If we are sincere the Lord in heart will reveal Himself in Prabhupada's words.

It seems you keep missing the points some people are making here. I may be wrong here but by the way I perceive your writings you seem to take it that anything any sadhu other than Prabhupada has to say, is to be confronted with some sort of "Prabhupada barrier". That everything a contemporary sadhu says or does is to be subjected to- and filtered through- Prabhupada's words which have apparently been elevated to the new Vaishnava law.

But noone suggests that you go and hear a sadhu speak of what he thinks Prabhupada really meant, that is nonsense. No, just hear-the sadhu-speak-Hari katha, period. No Prabhupada involved. That is what is meant here. Hearing from the lips of the realized soul, that is important. The Gaudiya Vaishnava line did not end when Prabhupada entered Krishna lila, though it may look like that if ISKCON is all you have seen and heard of. Thinking like that is really selling short the many bonafide spiritual masters who are currently out there preaching Krishna consciousness.

[theist]

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Theist

I agree with this. Prabhupada explained himself very clearly and we don't need to go through this swami or that acarya to understand him. If we are sincere the Lord in heart will reveal Himself in Prabhupada's words.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

It seems you keep missing the points some people are making here. I may be wrong here but by the way I perceive your writings you seem to take it that anything any sadhu other than Prabhupada has to say, is to be confronted with some sort of "Prabhupada barrier". That everything a contemporary sadhu says or does is to be subjected to- and filtered through- Prabhupada's words which have apparently been elevated to the new Vaishnava law.

 

Yes you are wrong. How you got that from what I post is baffling to me.

 

 

 

 

But noone suggests that you go and hear a sadhu speak of what he thinks Prabhupada really meant, that is nonsense. No, just hear-the sadhu-speak-Hari katha, period. No Prabhupada involved.

 

This is actually my position. I directed my comments to those that DO try to interpret Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I addressed this in a recent post. One swami's students and disciples have regularly done this on every forum I have been on for the last seven years. "Prabhupada really meant this or he really meant thathe had to say that because he was talking to hippies/Christians".

 

Again, (sigh) my position is that a disciple be lead to a source of Krsna consciousness knowledge by the Supersoul Himself fulling the sincere wish of that soul to know.

 

 

 

That is what is meant here. Hearing from the lips of the realized soul, that is important.

 

Or the pen of the pure devotee.

 

 

The Gaudiya Vaishnava line did not end when Prabhupada entered Krishna lila, though it may look like that if ISKCON is all you have seen and heard of. Thinking like that is really selling short the many bonafide spiritual masters who are currently out there preaching Krishna consciousness.

 

I can't believe you have ever read anything I wrote. That is no loss to you and may even be gain but please don't refer to having read my writings when you clearly have not. It's not offensive, I don't mean that, it's just confusing and time consuming to respond to such far fetched assumptions.

[Shakti-Fan]

The truly weird thing is that Guruvani aka Ksamabuddhi was with Sripad Bhakti Sudhir Goswami Maharaja during the early days of the Sridhar Maharaja movement, The Mahamadala, during the mid-eighties. At that time in San Jose California all the members of the 62 S. 13th St. Math, including Ksamabuddhi, preached the precepts found in Srila Sridhar Maharaja's book "Sri Guru and His Grace" (published in San Jose). Reliable sources tell me that the New Raman Reti ISKCON temple in Alachua Florida, near where Ksamabuddhi lives, is something right out of Rod Serling's, "The Twilight Zone". We must have pity on Ksamabuddhi because just being in proximity to the Alachua temple or merely observing the antics in that community is enough to drive anyone nuts. This is especially true if you use your time trying to figure out just what went wrong. And it appears that KB is obsessed with just that: What went wrong? But Srila Sridhar Maharaja says that, "every wave is a favorable wave". He also says that, "no one can cheat us except ourselves". People are cheated because they want to cheat others, but there are always bigger cheaters lurking out there. Ultimately Krsna is the biggest cheater. Srila Prabhupada called it "the society of the cheaters and the cheated." It happens in every attempt at a spiritual society when too much mundanity seeps in. So what else is new? We have to learn to look within not without. In fact this is a major theme of the Bhagavad Gita. Some translations give atma as the mind some as the body, some as the soul. Srila Prabhupada tranlated BG 6.5 "A man must elevate himself by his own mind, not degrade himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his enemy as well". Sometimes Srila Sridhar Maharaja would quote this verse in sanskrit and then say, "we are our own friend or our worst enemy" and "the enemy is within". So according to Sri Krsna in the Bhagavad Gita our own mind is our worst enemy not an ecclesiastical board that has lost its way. Even mundaners who preach postitive thinking know to focus on the positive not the negative. Tamasi ma jyotir gamah, look towards the light not the darkness. We have no control over what others will do. As Srila Prabhupada said, "we have to fly our own airplane." There are so many songs by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and other acaryas where they take the role of a conditioned soul and lament their "pitiful" condition. We are those conditioned souls so an important part of the process of bhakti for us is lament our pitiable and fallen position. If we are focused on the faults of others then this is impossible. Trnadapi sunicena taror api suhisnuna amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada hari.

<nobr></nobr>

[Guest guest]

O.K. here you go - some nectar from S.B. and the Bhaktivedanta Purports:

 

S.B. Canto 3, Ch. 25

 

text 20

 

Every learned man knows very well that attachment for the material is the greatest entanglement of the spirit soul. But that same attachment, when applied to the self-realized devotees, opens the door of liberation.

 

The purport is very sweet - not enough time to type it all out - that's your homework! Here's a quick sample:

 

Here it is recommended that attachment should be transferred to the self-realized devotees, the sadhus. And who is a sadhu? A sadhu is not just an ordinary man with a saffron robe or long beard. A sadhu is described in Bhagavad-Gita as one who unflinchingly engages in devotional service. Even though one is found not to be following strict rules and regulations of devotional service, if one simply has unflinching faith in Krsna, the Supreme Person, he is understood to be a sadhu. Sadhur eva sa mantavyah. A sadhu is a strict follower of devotional service. It is recommended here if one at all wants to realize Brahman, or spiritual perfection, his attachment should be transferred to the sadhu, or devotee. Lord Caitanya also confirmed this. Laa-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya: simply by a moment's association with a sadhu, one can attain perfection.

 

 

text 21

 

The symptoms of a sadhu are that he is tolerant, merciful and friendly to all living entities. He has no enemies, he is peaceful, he abides by the scriptures, and all his characteristics are sublime.

 

text 22

 

Such a sadhu engages in staunch devotional service to the Lord without deviation. For the sake of the Lord he renounces all other connections, such as family relationships and friendly acquaintances within the world.

 

text 23

 

Engaged constantly in chanting and hearing about Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the sadhus do not suffer from material miseries because they are always filled with thoughts of My pastimes and activities

 

text 24

 

O My mother, O virtuous lady, these are the qualities of great devotees who are free from all attachment. You must seek attachment to such holy men, for this counteracts the pernicious effects of material attachment.

 

text 25 (one of my very favorite versus)

 

In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. by cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. The real devotion and devotional service begin.

 

Purport (again, just a sampling - you have homework!)

 

The process of advancing in Krsna consciousness and devotional service is described here. The first point is that one must seek the association of persons who are Krsna conscious and who engage in devotional service. Without such association one cannot make advancement. Simply by theoretical knowledge or study one cannot make any appreciable advancement. One must give up the association of materialstic persons and see the association of devotees because without the association of devotees one cannot understand the activities of the Lord.

 

 

Any conclusions on the importance of sadhu sanga? The same thing that Ksambuddhi is lambasting devotees for saying on this thread regarding the necessity of sadhu sanga is being said here in S.B. Will you now argue with the book?

[suchandra]

 

The truly weird thing is that Guruvani aka Ksamabuddhi was with Sripad Bhakti Sudhir Goswami Maharaja during the early days of the Sridhar Maharaja movement, The Mahamandala, during the mid-eighties. At that time in San Jose California all the members of the 62 S. 13th St. Math, including Ksamabuddhi, preached the precepts found in Srila Sridhar Maharaja's book "Sri Guru and His Grace" (published in San Jose). Reliable sources tell me that the New Raman Reti ISKCON temple in Alachua Florida, near where Ksamabuddhi lives, is something right out of Rod Serling's, "The Twilight Zone". We must have pity on Ksamabuddhi because just being in proximity to the Alachua temple or merely observing the antics in that community is enough to drive anyone nuts. <NOBR></NOBR>

 

What's often forgotten is that Prabhupada's books, teachings and letters can be read today by everyone but Prabhupada's success of attracting so many people to KC was his own personal effulgence. People joined because of his personality surcharged with vibrating spirituality. He was firm as a rock and able to unite all those different type of people with thousands of different type of opinions. Since Prabhupada's physical presence is no more the uniting force among worldwide Vaishnavas this very uniting power is totally lost and instead all the different views and opinions run wild, out of control. Not only when it comes to sastrical questions, questions how to properly run a Vaishnava institution but even more dramatic when it comes to organize with united power to fight the opponent/demoniac forces of Lord Chaitanya's world-wide Sankirtan mission.

This went so far that it is often not even noticed anymore how global Vaishnavism is well directed put checkmate at so many important places by hidden forces - Vaishnavas kicked into isolation and helplessly overcome by anarthas. This is fact, anyone can see.

How to replace a charismatic spiritual leader? First we have to understand that presently there's not such a powerful pure devotee on this planet who's able to unite all those different camps under one roof. This understanding would be the first important step to further advance the coalition of global Vaishnavism - of again becoming a huge happy&productive family of Krishna's devotees.

[Guruvani]

 

What's often forgotten is that Prabhupada's books, teachings and letters can be read today by everyone but Prabhupada's success of attracting so many people to KC was his own personal effulgence. People joined because of his personality surcharged with vibrating spirituality.

 

Woaa nelly!

That is just plain wrong.

I flew off to join ISKCON from a small town in Indiana without EVER having seen Srila Prabhupada, taken prasadam, seen a Sankirtan party or having met any ISKCON devotee.

 

The books of Srila Prabhupada ALONE gave me all the knowledge and inspiration I needed to give up the regular course of my life and join ISKCON.

 

I called the temple in L.A. and Mother Omkara told me to come on out and join the temple if that was my desire.

 

I remember well that several devotees that joined around that time had also joined as a result of reading the books of Srila Prabhupada alone.

 

So, I think your claim that it was Charisma or charm or personal energy of Srila Prabhupada that caused devotees to join is just wrong.

 

I am totally against this whole idea of joining a spiritual organization because of the charisma or charm of the leader.

That is a very flimsy and weak platform.

 

But, what you're saying does have some relevence to the VAPUVADI way of thinking and is more or less the foundation of the vapuvada theory : that being in the physical proximity of the sadhu is more important than performing service to the spiritual master - that there is magic in his voice that is more valuable than following the instruction of the spiritual master.

It's the same old vapuvadi sales pitch that they have been preaching for over 25 years: that there is only one sadhu in the world and everybody has to bow down to him and surrrender to him or you are committing Vaishnava apraradha.

[Guruvani]

 

The truly weird thing is that Guruvani aka Ksamabuddhi was with Sripad Bhakti Sudhir Goswami Maharaja during the early days of the Sridhar Maharaja movement, The Mahamadala, during the mid-eighties. At that time in San Jose California all the members of the 62 S. 13th St. Math, including Ksamabuddhi, preached the precepts found in Srila Sridhar Maharaja's book "Sri Guru and His Grace" (published in San Jose). Reliable sources tell me that the New Raman Reti ISKCON temple in Alachua Florida, near where Ksamabuddhi lives, is something right out of Rod Serling's, "The Twilight Zone". We must have pity on Ksamabuddhi because just being in proximity to the Alachua temple or merely observing the antics in that community is enough to drive anyone nuts. This is especially true if you use your time trying to figure out just what went wrong. And it appears that KB is obsessed with just that: What went wrong? But Srila Sridhar Maharaja says that, "every wave is a favorable wave". He also says that, "no one can cheat us except ourselves". People are cheated because they want to cheat others, but there are always bigger cheaters lurking out there. Ultimately Krsna is the biggest cheater. Srila Prabhupada called it "the society of the cheaters and the cheated." It happens in every attempt at a spiritual society when too much mundanity seeps in. So what else is new? We have to learn to look within not without. In fact this is a major theme of the Bhagavad Gita. Some translations give atma as the mind some as the body, some as the soul. Srila Prabhupada tranlated BG 6.5 "A man must elevate himself by his own mind, not degrade himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his enemy as well". Sometimes Srila Sridhar Maharaja would quote this verse in sanskrit and then say, "we are our own friend or our worst enemy" and "the enemy is within". So according to Sri Krsna in the Bhagavad Gita our own mind is our worst enemy not an ecclesiastical board that has lost its way. Even mundaners who preach postitive thinking know to focus on the positive not the negative. Tamasi ma jyotir gamah, look towards the light not the darkness. We have no control over what others will do. As Srila Prabhupada said, "we have to fly our own airplane." There are so many songs by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and other acaryas where they take the role of a conditioned soul and lament their "pitiful" condition. We are those conditioned souls so an important part of the process of bhakti for us is lament our pitiable and fallen position. If we are focused on the faults of others then this is impossible. Trnadapi sunicena taror api suhisnuna amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada hari.

<nobr></nobr>

 

Yeah, I know.

To all you fellas oriented to the Matha "everything is a favorable wave". (except that damn Kshamabuddhi, he is a pain in the ass.)

 

Again "vishva purnam sukhayate" the whole universe is an abode of perfect bliss, except for that pesky ol' Kshamabuddhi, he is a miserable ol' fool!

 

Everything is a favorable wave?

(Well, everything except Kshamabuddhi and he is just bad vibes.)

 

[Guest guest]

 

that pesky ol' Kshamabuddhi, he is a miserable ol' fool!

 

Why you old varmit Kshamabuddhi. I never dreamed that you was Guruvani. Trapped any gators lately? (animal rescue...he wouldn't hurt a fly). How s all the farmis down in 'lachu-way? Dagnamit! the local GBC sent some revenuers down to my cabin last week.

Sampradaya Sam (formerly on the Sun)

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Yeah, I know.

To all you fellas oriented to the Matha "everything is a favorable wave".

You can't have it both ways Guruvani. One minute you're a rtvik the next moment a Sridhar Maharaja follower. Its like being a capitalist one moment and a socialist at another. Its not an intellectually sound position. For instance here is a "Matha oriented" statement made by you previously on this thread.

 

Our paltry attempts at sadhana are nothing compared to the causeless mercy of the spiritual master.

In the world of bhakti, kripa is a lot more gracious than sadhana.

So, we shouldn't get all puffed-up over a little sadhana practice.

It doesn't really mean that much.

Anarthas can be individual or spread through a group. What you say about mercy and sadhana is really not the position of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu coming through Srila Sridhar Maharaja. It is a manifestation of a group anartha that spread throughout the Math association especially in the West. Srila Sridhar Maharaja, and Srila Prabhupada both explained the example of the kitten and the monkey. The kitten is completely held by the mother cat. On the other hand although the mother monkey assists the baby monkey by holding him to an extent, if the baby monkey does not attempt to hold on then he will fall off. So Mahaprabhu accepted the version of the monkey. Our attempt to hold on is our practice of sadhana bhakti. When Krsna sees our sincere attempt at sadhana bhakti, guru seva, Vaisnava seva etc. He becomes disposed to take mercy upon us. Of course there is the chance that a devotee can attain bhava without any practice of sadhana, but Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur explains in Jaiva Dharma that this is very rare.

[Shakti-Fan]

[quote name='Guruvani

The books of Srila Prabhupada ALONE gave me all the knowledge and inspiration I needed to give up the regular course of my life and join ISKCON.

[Guest guest]

 

Woaa nelly!

That is just plain wrong.

I flew off to join ISKCON from a small town in Indiana without EVER having seen Srila Prabhupada, taken prasadam, seen a Sankirtan party or having met any ISKCON devotee.

 

The books of Srila Prabhupada ALONE gave me all the knowledge and inspiration I needed to give up the regular course of my life and join ISKCON.

 

 

 

Phalena paricéyate - if you just have a short look out at your frontdoor if people are lining up to ask you about the ultimate goal of life, then you can be sure that you're linked up with our paramapara and Prabhupada. And this is what is badly needed after 30 years of Prabhupada having left this planet. Someone who can show by the result of his action that wonderful things start to happen. Then only will the back and forth debates/discussions stop and no more questions being asked - is he right or wrong? If you know what I mean.

[Nrsinghadev]

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Theist

I agree with this. Prabhupada explained himself very clearly and we don't need to go through this swami or that acarya to understand him. If we are sincere the Lord in heart will reveal Himself in Prabhupada's words.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

 

Yes you are wrong. How you got that from what I post is baffling to me.

 

 

 

 

 

This is actually my position. I directed my comments to those that DO try to interpret Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I addressed this in a recent post. One swami's students and disciples have regularly done this on every forum I have been on for the last seven years. "Prabhupada really meant this or he really meant thathe had to say that because he was talking to hippies/Christians".

 

Again, (sigh) my position is that a disciple be lead to a source of Krsna consciousness knowledge by the Supersoul Himself fulling the sincere wish of that soul to know.

 

 

 

 

Or the pen of the pure devotee.

 

 

 

I can't believe you have ever read anything I wrote. That is no loss to you and may even be gain but please don't refer to having read my writings when you clearly have not. It's not offensive, I don't mean that, it's just confusing and time consuming to respond to such far fetched assumptions.

 

 

Hare Krishna prabhu,

 

yes, I have read so many posts on this board, and as you are a "frequent poster" here, I have read yours as well.

Thank you for clarifying things,for taking the time to reply and for not getting offended. My post wasn't meant to be offensive but different people perceive the same message in different ways, and so some may think it's an assault on their persona and react strongly when it's not meant to be like that.

 

More often than not I refrain from replying because everything write is quite pretentious, but sometimes I can't control the urge to spout my useless opinion on some interesting subject. At such a time I try to enter a heated debate, with the laughable idea of thinking my words may have some effect, much like an ordinary child trying to mingle in a discussion between adults.

 

Haribol!

[theist]

 

Hare Krishna prabhu,

 

yes, I have read so many posts on this board, and as you are a "frequent poster" here, I have read yours as well.

 

Actually I am here ad nauseum I'm afraid but I have no where else to go so I stay until forced to leave.

 

 

Thank you for clarifying things,for taking the time to reply and for not getting offended. My post wasn't meant to be offensive but different people perceive the same message in different ways, and so some may think it's an assault on their persona and react strongly when it's not meant to be like that.

 

Yes, I am trying to get past feelings of being offended. It is usually my default reaction but I really know that that it is not meant personally. We fallen souls have no place to be offended. We are the offenders to Krsna and thus every living being by being to proud to serve and choosing rather to try and exploit. We fallen souls are in Ravanna's camp but coming to boards like this we show some desire to maybe change sides and join the pure devotees. In this endeavor we need to support each other as we struggle to develop a true understanding of Krsna consciousness. We bump up against each other and misunderstand each other all the time but rather than being offended we should take it as a form of polishing, learning and growth.

 

 

More often than not I refrain from replying because everything write is quite pretentious, but sometimes I can't control the urge to spout my useless opinion on some interesting subject.

 

Nonsense. We are all pretentious. Every fallen soul is pretending to be that which he is not. But you have some humility. Myself I post because it is a viable form of meditation and association for me. Prentiousness be damned. We try to get past that and one of the ways we do that is by sharing our realizations, doubts, and curiousities with each other.

 

 

At such a time I try to enter a heated debate, with the laughable idea of thinking my words may have some effect, much like an ordinary child trying to mingle in a discussion between adults.

 

Haribol

 

Please don't be so harsh on yourself. My body is like an adult (55)but we are all infants in Krsna consciousness. "Become as little children.."-the Christ

 

Actually your reticence to participate more should be overcome for everyone's benefit Prabhu. You must share what you are learning. We keep it by giving it.

 

Haribol

[Guruvani]

 

You can't have it both ways Guruvani. One minute you're a rtvik the next moment a Sridhar Maharaja follower.

Duh, like Sridhar Maharaja had his own ritvik system for several years and appointed his successor as ritvik in his official declaration of spiritual succession on Gaura Purnima 1986.

 

So, all you anti-ritvik types can deny that and reject that and pretend it doesn't exist, but it is all there in official documents and official statements by Sridhar Maharaja.

 

May I remind you that the ritvik system in the Matha was overthrown by a gang of neophytes who couldn't see the wisdom in what Sridhar Maharaja was doing with the ritvik principle.

 

As far as Sridhar Maharaja is concerned, his final position was:

 

 

With this I transfer these beads and from now he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and also in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative.

So, you can play dumb and try to pull the wool over everybody's eyes, but the words of Sridhar Maharaja speak for themselves.

 

The opinion of the neophyte gang loitering around the Matha doesn't mean anything.

The orders and instructions of Sridhar Maharaja is what really matters.

 

So to ask how anyone can be a fan of Sridhar Maharaja and a ritvik proponent too is not the real question.

 

The real question is how can anyone claim to be a fan of Sridhar Maharaja and NOT be a ritvik proponent?