Srila Prabhupada on who is a real Guru from SSR

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Saints and Swindlers

By His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

Ever day the number of people interested in practicing yoga and meditation

increases by the thousands. Unfortunately, a person looking for a suitable

guide

is likely to encounter a bewildering array of magicians, self-styled gurus,

self-proclaimed gods. In an interview with the London Times, Srila Prabhupada

explains how a sincere seeker can tell the difference between a counterfeit and

 

genuine spiritual guide.

 

Reporter: Your Grace, it seems that more people than ever are seeking some

kind of spiritual life. I wonder if you could tell me why this is so.

Srila Prabhupada: The desire for spiritual life is an absolutely natural

hankering. Because we are spirit souls, we cannot be happy in the material

atmosphere. If you take a fish out of the water, it cannot be happy on land.

Similarly, if we are without spiritual consciousness, we can never be happy.

Today, so

many people are after scientific advancement and economic development, but

they are not happy, people are realizing this, and they are rejecting

materialistic life and are trying to search for spiritual life. Actually, this

is the

proper search. Krsna consciousness is the proper goal of life. Unless you take

to Krsna consciousness, you cannot be happy. That is a fact. Therefore, we

invite everyone to study and understand this great movement.

Reporter: What frankly worries me is that since the arrival in Britain some

time ago of an Indian yogi, who was the first "guru" that most people had ever

heard of, a lot of "gurus" have suddenly appeared out of nowhere. Sometimes I

get the feeling that not all of them are as genuine as they ought to be. Would

it be right to warn people who are thinking of taking up spiritual life that

should make sure that they have a genuine guru to teach them ?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Of course, to search out a guru is very nice, but if

you want a cheap guru, or if you want to be cheated, then you will find many

cheating gurus. But if you are sincere, you will find a sincere guru. Because

people want everything very cheaply, they are cheated. We ask our students to

refrain from illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling, and intoxication. People think

 

that this is all very difficult - a botheration. But if someone else says,

"You may do whatever nonsense you like, simply take my mantra," then people

will

like him. The point is that people want to be cheated, and therefore cheaters

come. No one wants to undergo any austerity. Human life is meant for

austerity, but no one is prepared to undergo austerity. Consequently, cheaters

come and

say, "No austerity. Whatever you like you do. Simply pay me, and I'll give

you some mantra, and you'll become God in six months." All this is going on. If

 

you want to be cheated like this, the cheaters will come.

Reporter: What about the person who seriously wants to find spiritual life

but who happens to finish up with the wrong guru ?

Srila Prabhupada: If you simply want an ordinary education, you have to

devote so much time, labor, and understanding to it. Similarly, if you are

going to

take to spiritual life, you must become serious. How is it that simply by

some wonderful mantras, someone can become God in six months ? Why do people

want

something like that ? This means that they want to be cheated.

Reporter: How can a person tell he has a genuine guru ?

Srila Prabhupada: Can any of my students answer this question ?

Disciple: Once I remember John Lennon asked you, "How will I know who is the

genuine guru ?" And you answered, "Just find out the one who is most addicted

to Krsna. He is genuine."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The genuine guru is God's representative, and he

speaks about God and nothing else. The genuine guru is he who has no interest

in

materialistic life. He is after God, and God only. That is one of the tests of

a

genuine guru: brahma-nistham. He is absorbed in the Absolute Truth. In the

Mundaka Upanisad it is stated, srotriyam brahma-nistham: "The genuine guru is

well versed in the scriptures and Vedic knowledge, and he is completely

dependent on Brahman." He should know what Brahman [spirit] is and how to

become

situated in Brahman. These signs are given in the Vedic literature. As I said

before, the real guru is God's representative. He represents the Supreme Lord,

just

as a viceroy represents a king. The real guru will not manufacture anything.

Everything he says is in accordance with the scriptures and the previous

acaryas. He will not give you a mantra and tell you that you will become God in

six

months. This is not a guru's business. A guru's business is to canvass

everyone to become a devotee of God. That is the sum and substance of a real

guru'sguru.

Reporter: What about a Christian priest ?

Srila Prabhupada: Christian, Muhammandan, Hindu - it doesn't matter. If he is

simply speaking on behalf of God, he is a guru. Lord Jesus Christ, for

instance. He canvassed people, saying, "Just try to love God." Anyone - it

doesn't

matter who - be he Hindu, Muslim, or Christian, is a guru if he convinces

people to love God. That is the test. The guru never says, "I am God," or "I

will

make you God." The real guru says, "I am a servant of God, and I will make you

a servant of God also." It doesn't matter how the guru is dressed. As Caitanya

Mahaprabhu said, "Whoever can impart knowledge about Krsna is a spiritual

master." A genuine spiritual master simply tries to get people to become

devotees

of Krsna, or God. He has no other business.

Reporter: Bur the bad gurus....

Srila Prabhupada: And what is a "bad" guru ?

Reporter: A bad guru just wants some money or some fame.

Srila Prabhupada: Well, if he is bad, how can he become a guru ? [Laughter.]

How can iron become gold ? Actually, a guru cannot be bad, for if someone is

bad, he cannot be a guru. You cannot say "bad guru." That is a contradiction.

What you have to do is simply try to understand what a genuine guru is. The

definition of a genuine guru is that he is simply talking about God - that's

all.

If he's talking about some other nonsense, then he is not a guru. A guru

cannot be bad. There is no question of a bad guru, any more than a red guru or

a

white guru. Guru means "genuine guru." All we have to know is that the genuine

guru is simply talking about God and trying to get people to become God's

devotees. If he does this, he is genuine.

Reporter: If I wanted to be initiated into your society, what would I have to

do ?

Srila Prabhupada: First of all, you'd have to give up illicit sex life.

Reporter: Does that include all sex life ? What is illicit sex life ?

Srila Prabhupada: Illicit sex is sex outside of marriage. Animals have sex

with no restriction, but in human society there are restriction. In every

country and in every religion there is some system of restricting sex life. You

 

would also have to give up all intoxicants, including tea, cigarettes, alcohol,

 

marijuana - anything that intoxicates.

Reporter: Anything else ?

Srila Prabhupada: You'd also have to give up eating meat, eggs, and fish. And

you'd have to give up gambling as well. Unless you gave up these four sinful

activities, you could not be initiated.

Reporter: How many followers do you have throughout the world ?

Srila Prabhupada: For anything genuine, the followers may be very few. For

something rubbish, the followers may be many. Still, we have about five

thousand

initiated disciples.

Reporter: Is the Krsna consciousness movement growing all the time ?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it is growing - but slowly. This is because we have so

many restrictions. People do not like restrictions.

Reporter: Where is your following the greatest ?

Srila Prabhupada: In the United States, Europe, South America, and Australia.

And, of course, in India there are millions who practice Krsna consciousness.

Reporter: Could you tell me what the goal of your movement is ?

Srila Prabhupada: The purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement is to

awaken man's original consciousness. At the present moment our consciousness is

 

designated. Someone is thinking, "I am an Englishman," and another is thinking,

 

"I am American." Actually, we do not belong to any of these designations. We

are all part and parcel of God; that is our real identity. If everyone simply

comes to that consciousness, all the problems of the world will be solved. Then

 

we shall come to know that we are one - the same quality of spirit soul. The

same quality of spirit soul is within everone, although it may be in a

different dress. This is the explanation given in the Bhagavad-gita.

Krsna consciousness is actually a purificatory process

(sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam). Its purpose is to make people free from all

designations (tat-paratvena

nirmalam). When our consciousness becomes purified of all designations, the

activities we carry out with our purified senses make us perfect. Eventually,

we

reach the ideal perfection of human life. Krsna consciousness is also a very

simple process. It is not necessary to become a great philosopher, scientist,

or

whatever. We need only chant the holy name of the Lord, understanding that

His personality, His name, and His qualities are all absolute.

Krsna consciousness is a great science. Unfortunately, in the universities

there is no department for this science. Therefore we invite all serious men

who

are interested in the welfare of human society to understand this great

movement and, if possible, take part in it and cooperate with us. The problems

of

the world will be solved. This is also the verdict of the Bhagavad-gita, the

most important and authoritative book of spiritual knowledge. Many of you have

heard of the Bhagavad-gita. Our movement is based on it. Our movement is

approved by all great acaryas in India. Ramanujarcarya, Madhvacarya, Lord

Caitanya,

and so many others. You are all representatives of newspapers, so I ask you to

try to understand this movement as far as possible for the good of all human

society.

Reporter:Do you think your movement is the only way to know God ?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: How are you assured of that ?

Srila Prabhupada: From the authorities and from God, Krsna. Krsna says:

 

sarva-dharman parityaiya

mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

moksayisyami ma sucah

 

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall

deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." [bhagavad-gita 18.66]

Reporter: Does "surrender" mean that someone would have to leave his family ?

Srila Prabhupada: No.

Reporter: But suppose I were to become an initiate. Wouldn't I have to come

and live in the temple ?

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Reporter: What about Work ? Would I have to give up job ?

Srila Prabhupada: No, you'd simply have to give up your bad habits and chant

the Hare Krsna mantra on these beads - that's all.

Reporter: Would I have to give any financial support.

Srila Prabhupada: No, that is your voluntary wish. If you give, that's all

right. And if you don't, we don't mind. We do not depend on anyone's financial

contribution. We depend on Krsna.

Reporter: I wouldn't have to give any money at all ?

Srila Prabhupada: No.

Reporter: Is this one of the main things that distinguishes the genuine guru

from the fake guru ?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, a genuine guru is not a business man. He is a

representative of God. Whatever God says, the guru repeats. he does not speak

otherwise.

Reporter: But would you expect to find a real guru, say, traveling in a Rolls

Royce and staying in a penthouse suite in a classy hotel ?

Srila Prabhupada: Sometimes people provide us with a room in a first-class

hotel, but we generally stay in our own temples. We have some one hundred

temples around the would, so we don't require to go to any hotels.

Reporter: I wasn't trying to make any accusations. I was merely trying to

illustrate that I think your warning is a valid one. There are so many people

interested in finding a spiritual life, and at the same time there are a lot of

 

people interested in cashing in on the "guru business."

Srila Prabhupada: Are you under the impression that spiritual life means

voluntarily accepting poverty ?

Reporter: Well, I don't know.

Srila Prabhupada: A poverty-stricken man may be materialistic, and a wealthy

man may be very spiritual. Spiritual life does not depend on either poverty or

wealth. Spiritual life is transcendental. Consider Arjuna, for instance.

Arjuna was a member of a royal family, yet he was a pure devotee of God. And in

 

the Bhagavad-gita [4.2] Sri Krsna says, evam parampara imam rajarsayo viduh:

"This supreme science was received through the chain of disciplic succession,

and

the saintly kings understood it in that way." In the past, all kings who were

saintly understood spiritual science. Therefore, spiritual life does not

depend on one's material condition. Whatever a person's material condition may

be,

he may be a king or a pauper - he can still understand spiritual life.

Generally people do not know what spiritual life is, and therefore, they

unnecessarily criticize us. If I asked you what spiritual life is, how would

you answer?

Reporter: Well, I'm not sure.

Srila Prabhupada: Although you do not know what spiritual life is, you still

say, "It is this," or "It is that." But first you should know what spiritual

life is. Spiritual life begins when you understand that you are not your body.

This is the real beginning of spiritual life. By seeing the difference between

your self and your body, you come to understand that you are spirit soul

(aham brahmasmi).

Reporter: Do you think this knowledge should be a part of everyone's

education ?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. People should first be taught what they are. Are they

their bodies, or something else ? That is the beginning of education. Now

everyone is educated to think he is his body. Because someone accidentally gets

an

American body, he thinks, "I am an American." This is just like thinking, "I

am a red shirt," just because you are wearing a red shirt. You are not a red

shirt; you are a human being. Similarly, this body is like a shirt or coat over

 

the real person - the spirit soul. If we recognize ourselves simply by our

bodily "shirt" or "coat," then we have no spiritual education.

Reporter: Do you think that such education should be given in schools?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes - in schools, colleges, and universities. There is an

immense literature on this subject - an immense fund of knowledge. What is

actually required is that the leaders of society come forward to understand

this

movement.

Reporter: Have you ever had people come to you who had previously been

involved with a fake guru ?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, there are many.

Reporter: Were their spiritual lives in any way spoiled by the fake gurus ?

Srila Prabhupada: No, they were genuinely seeking something spiritual, and

that was their qualification. God is within everyone's heart, and as soon as

someone genuinely seeks Him, He helps that person find a genuine guru.

Reporter: Have the real gurus like yourself ever tried to put a stop to the

false gurus - that is, put pressure on them to put them out of business, so to

speak ?

Srila Prabhupada: No, that is not my purpose. I started my movement simply by

chanting Hare Krsna. I chanted in New York in a place called Tompkins Square

Park, and soon people began to come to me. In this way, the Krsna

consciousness movement gradually developed. Many accepted, and many did not

accept. Those

who are fortunate have accepted.

Reporter: Don't you feel that people are suspicious because of their

experience with fake gurus ? If you went to a quack dentist and he broke your

tooth,

you might be suspicious about going to another dentist.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Naturally, if you are cheated, you become suspicious.

But this does not mean that if you are cheated once, you will always be

cheated. You should find someone genuine. But to come to Krsna consciousness,

you

must be either very fortunate or well aware of this science. From the

Bhagavad-gita we understand that the genuine seekers are very few: manusyanam

sahasresu

kaascid yatati siddhaye. Out of many millions of people, there may be only one

who is interested in spiritual life. Generally, people are interested in

eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. So how can we expect to find many

followers ? It is not difficult to notice that people have lost their spiritual

 

interest. And almost all those who are actually interested are being cheated by

 

so-called spiritualists. You cannot judge a movement simply by the number of

its

followers. If one man is genuine, then the movement is successful. It is not a

question of quantity, but quality.

Reporter: I wondered how many people you think might have been taken in by

fake gurus.

Srila Prabhupada: Practically everyone. [Laughter.] There is no question of

counting. Everyone.

Reporter: This would mean thousands of people, wouldn't it ?

Srila Prabhupada: Millions. Millions have been cheated because they want to

be cheated. God is omniscient. He can understand your desires. He is within

your heart, and if you want to be cheated, God sends you a cheater.

Reporter: Is it possible for everyone to attain the perfectional stage you

spoke of previously ?

Srila Prabhupada: Within a second. Anyone can attain perfection within a

second - providing he is willing. The difficulty is that no one is willing. In

the

Bhagavad-gita [18.66] Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam

vraja: "Simply surrender unto Me." But who is going to surrender to God ?

Everyone says, "Oh, why should I surrender to God ? I will be independent." If

you

simply surrender, it is a second's business. That's all. But no one is willing

and that is the difficulty.

Reporter: When you say that lots of people want to be cheated, do you mean

that lots of people want to carry on with their worldly pleasures and at the

same time, by chanting a mantra or by holding a flower, achieve spiritual life

as

well ? Is this what you mean by wanting to be cheated ?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this is like a patient thinking, "I shall continue

with my disease, and at the same time I shall become healthy." It is

contradictory. The first requirement is that one become educated in spiritual

life.

Spiritual life is not something one can understand by a few minutes talk. There

are

many philosophy and theology books, but people are not interested in them.

That is the difficulty. For instance, the Srimad-Bhagavatam is a very long

work,

and if you try to read this book, it many take many days just to understand

one line of it. The Bhagavatam describes God, the Absolute Truth, but people

are

not interested. And if, by chance, someone becomes a little interested in

spiritual life, he wants something immediate and cheap. Therefore, he is

cheated.

Actually, human life is meant for austerity and penance. That is the way of

Vedic civilization. In Vedic times they would train boys as brahmacaris: no sex

 

life was allowed at all up to the age of twenty-five. Where is that education

now ? A brahmacari is a student who lives a life of complete celibacy and

obeys the commands of his guru at the gurukula [school of the spiritual

master].

Now schools and colleges are teaching sex from the very beginning, and twelve-

or thirteen-year-old boys and girls are having sex. How can they have a

spiritual life ? Spiritual life means voluntarily accepting some austerities

for

the sake of God realization. That is why we insist on no illicit sex,

meat-eating, gambling, or intoxication for our initiated students. Without

these

restrictions, any "yoga meditation" or so-called spiritual discipline cannot be

 

genuine. It is simply a business deal between the cheaters and the cheated.

Reporter: Thank you very much.

Srila Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.