Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

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Posted by Yaduraja on Dec 11, 2006:

 

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP!

You write:

 

> So this letter is no evidence that for the initiation the physical

> presence of the diksa guru is not required.

 

What do you mean by ‘the initiation’?

 

> The context was whether Srila Prabhupada is present in his picture and

> form, not the physical presence of Srila Prabhupada at the time of the

> initiation.

(Ramakanta das Dec 02, 2006 - 05:37 AM)

 

And what do you mean by ‘the time of initiation’?

 

What is your definition of initiation that proves the guru's physical

presence is required in order for it to occur? You have never provided one,

and yet it is you who is challenging point c).

 

> "If by 'vani is more important than vapu' you understood 'vapu is not

> important' or 'physical presence is not important', then you badly

> misunderstood Srila Prabhupada".

 

It is Srila Prabhupada who says physical presence is not important, not me:

 

“Physical presence is not important.”

(Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

“Physical presence is immaterial.” Presence of the transcendental sound

received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life.

(Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That

is real association.

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18 )

 

Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association

by vibration not physical presence. That is real association.

(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57 )

 

Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani

continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the

Vani, not the physical presence.

(CC, Antya 5 Conclusion )

 

Why do you keep contradicting Srila Prabhupada’s teachings? This is the

behaviour of a demon not a devotee.

 

Vapu is only important in so far as the spiritual master must manifest

physically in the universe, but once having done so it is not essential he

is physically present before every single disciple- providing they have

access to his vani. Vani is absolutely required by the disciple, vapu is

not. So, so far as we are concerned (and the disciples Srila Prabhupada was

addressing in many of those quotes), Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence in

relation to us is not important since we have his vani.

 

Do I have to keep explaining the same points over and over before you admit

defeat?

 

> When I asked you if there are other constituents of diksa besides

> transmission of knowledge, you answered, "destroying the disciple’s sinful

> reactions". So far you have not backed this up by a quote.

 

Yes I did:

 

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge

and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the

study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa."

(C.c. Madhya, 15.108, purport)

 

But sadly you no longer seem to accept definitions given by Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Point c) remains unchallenged, you remain defeated.

 

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu